Balancing Various Undead Characters

[Harbinger]

I'm planning on running a game where each player has to play as an undead. This means applying one of the various undead templates to their character. I'm going to give them these templates for free, with no level adjustment. Of course, this creates problems with more powerful undead in the party with weaker ones. A vampire or a wraith has a considerable advantage over a grave touched ghoul for example. Can anyone think of a good way to mitigate this, which doesn't have the opposite effect in making no one want to use the stronger templates. My thought is using a higher point buy for weaker undead, and a lower one for more powerful ones. It doesn't seem like enough, though. Any other ideas?

[TuggyNE]

I would instead suggest reducing all LAs by the same amount (whatever the smallest LA in the party is). That's the simplest solution, unless you absolutely must start at ECL 1.

[Harbinger]

I would instead suggest reducing all LAs by the same amount (whatever the smallest LA in the party is). That's the simplest solution, unless you absolutely must start at ECL 1.

The problem I have with this is that it seems to have the opposite effect. If I reduced all LA by 2 (the grave touched ghouls LA), the vampire is suddenly a lot less apealling. In my opinion, the difference between a level 10 vamp and a level 10 ghoul is much smaller than the difference between a 4th level vampire with 6 LA and a 10th level ghoul with none. So that's why I'd rather not use level adjustment if I can help it.

[Failed Phantasm]

You could apply the Evolved Undead template (Libris Mortis, pg. 99-100) a number of times to the weaker characters until you feel parity has been achieved with the stronger ones. It's pretty ad hoc, though.

[Vhaidara]

Maybe create Tiers of undead

Tier 3: LA 2 or less normally. Has no LA
Tier 2: LA 3-6. Has LA +1
Tier 1: 7+ LA. Has LA +2

EDIT: Not sure about the evolved undead template. To bring Grave Touched Ghoul (+2) to vampire levels (+8), that's 6 applications. So, +12 Str, +12 Cha, fast healing 36, and 6 SLAs from the table (which has some REALLY nice spells on it).

[Failed Phantasm]

That assumes you add Evolved Undead until the LA values are equal, which is not at all what I'm suggesting, especially not with Vampire being heavily overvalued at LA +8.

EDIT: A loose approximation is all you're going to get by using this method, and I would probably eyeball Gravetouched Ghoul as being worth two (maybe three) applications of Evolved Undead to equal a Vampire. Of course, you can always err on the side of caution and allow fewer than that; the template can be applied again during the course of play, if you feel the need.

[Gemini476]

The problem I have with this is that it seems to have the opposite effect. If I reduced all LA by 2 (the grave touched ghouls LA), the vampire is suddenly a lot less apealling. In my opinion, the difference between a level 10 vamp and a level 10 ghoul is much smaller than the difference between a 4th level vampire with 6 LA and a 10th level ghoul with none. So that's why I'd rather not use level adjustment if I can help it.

Have you seen LA buyoff? Apply it after reducing all the the lowest LA.
...It wouldn't help the vamp that much, but still.

[Vhaidara]

Maybe combine these ideas? Buy off is pretty useless past +3, and even then it takes a while, so let's do some math.

In case you don't know how buy off works, here's the SRD page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).

Vampire is, I believe, the highest LA undead template (possibly just the highest LA template). So let's use that as a base.

Vampire (+8) is also overvalued. It's nice, yes, but nowhere near 8 levels. So lets put it at +5/+6 (your call, of course)

Now, let's reduced LAs to make buy off reasonable. That means our highest template (vampire) should be a LA +3 (start buy off at 9, finish at 18). So, that means reducing all LA by 2/3 points.

GTG is now at 0/-1. If it's at -1, that's a free application of Evolved Undead. Then, the player can choose to apply the Evolved template up to 3 more times, giving themselves LA to buy off in exchange for a more powerful base creature to work with.

[WhamBamSam]

Gestalt is something of an equalizer for high LA.

Classes 10//Vampire LA +8/Classes 2 probably isn't going to be as powerful as Classes 10//Gravetouched Ghoul LA +2/Classes 8, but it's a lot closer than without shifting the LA to one side of the Gestalt.

Also, prospective Vampire players should always consider using the Vampiric Dragon template from Draconomicon on a Dragonwrought Kobold. Str won't be as good (though it's still a net +2 with Arctic Kobold and the Dex and mental stats will probably be better), and you lose out on Children of the Night, but it's LA +5 instead of LA +8 and adds the ability to vampirize dragons if you can make yourself big and bad enough to grapple them.

[TuggyNE]

The problem I have with this is that it seems to have the opposite effect. If I reduced all LA by 2 (the grave touched ghouls LA), the vampire is suddenly a lot less apealling. In my opinion, the difference between a level 10 vamp and a level 10 ghoul is much smaller than the difference between a 4th level vampire with 6 LA and a 10th level ghoul with none. So that's why I'd rather not use level adjustment if I can help it.

How does it make the problem any worse? You'd still have the same 4th and 10th level characters, they'd just be ECL 12 instead of 10 (or they'd be 2nd and 8th, which is even more severe).

Vampire LA is generally considered rather overpriced, but that's a separate issue, and one that is not properly fixed by any general guideline, even "higher LA gets lower point buy" (since the vampire still gets rather too low a point buy; how do you even account for 8 LA, give them -35 points to spend?). Fix specific problems with specific solutions, and general problems with general solutions. Don't mix them up.

[Harbinger]

How does it make the problem any worse? You'd still have the same 4th and 10th level characters, they'd just be ECL 12 instead of 10 (or they'd be 2nd and 8th, which is even more severe).

Vampire LA is generally considered rather overpriced, but that's a separate issue, and one that is not properly fixed by any general guideline, even "higher LA gets lower point buy" (since the vampire still gets rather too low a point buy; how do you even account for 8 LA, give them -35 points to spend?). Fix specific problems with specific solutions, and general problems with general solutions. Don't mix them up.

It makes the problem worse by forcing the vampire player to give up six levels, instead of getting the template for free. And yes, I'm well aware that the vampire is vastly overadjusted. I wasn't going to adjust the point buy by level adjustment, but rather by "general power level". I like Keledrath's tier system for this purpose. As for the evolved undead template, I like that idea, but what about just giving away two free LA? Like this:

Tier 3 (necropolitan, gravetouched ghoul) can choose any LA 1 or 2 race or template and have it at LA 0, or the Evolved Undead template twice.

Tier 2 (mummified creature, wight) can choose any LA 1, or the Evolved Undead template once.

Tier 1 (wraith, vampire) gets nothing. How does that sound?

[Just to Browse]

Four LA+0 templates, roughly equal in power (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/New_Rules).

That book also adds new rules for varied undead, if you're interested in that. Ignore the racial subtypes otherwise.

[Harbinger]

Four LA+0 templates, roughly equal in power (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/New_Rules).

That book also adds new rules for varied undead, if you're interested in that. Ignore the racial subtypes otherwise.

Those seem sort of bland to me, and I'd rather stick to official stuff. Thank you, though.

[Vhaidara]

Yay, my system was liked!

I am curious, how would you do wraith? It isn't a template anywhere I can find.

[Harbinger]

Yay, my system was liked!

I am curious, how would you do wraith? It isn't a template anywhere I can find.

It's in Savage Species, as is the wight.

[Vhaidara]

Derp. I knew I'd seen them somewhere, too.

Also, just in case you didn't know, Dragon Compendium has templates for Ghoulish and Ghastly creatures. They're kind of hilarious because they're both +0 LA templates.

btw, is this going to be an evil group, or a group of undead misfits?

[Harbinger]

Derp. I knew I'd seen them somewhere, too.

Also, just in case you didn't know, Dragon Compendium has templates for Ghoulish and Ghastly creatures. They're kind of hilarious because they're both +0 LA templates.

btw, is this going to be an evil group, or a group of undead misfits?

The group will be evil, for the most part.

[Vhaidara]

Sadness. I theorycrafted a group of good-aligned undead once. The hardest one to play would easily have been the ghast cleric of Pelor. Greater Turning hurts when you're powered by negative energy.

I wanna see if I can get a group/DM to run that team.

[TuggyNE]

It makes the problem worse by forcing the vampire player to give up six levels, instead of getting the template for free.

Well, if the choices are "give vampire 0 LA" or "give vampire 6 LA", obviously the former is better! But that's not the comparison here at all, because if you just give vampire for free no one would ever consider being a ghoul. Rather, it's "give vampire 30-40 points less than (or however much) ghouls for point buy", "give vampire 6 LA", or "give vampire 8 LA and gravetouched ghouls 2 LA". As such, moving from the standard to my suggestion cannot make things worse, and I really doubt that moving from the point buy setup to my suggestion makes things significantly worse either.


And yes, I'm well aware that the vampire is vastly overadjusted. I wasn't going to adjust the point buy by level adjustment, but rather by "general power level". I like Keledrath's tier system for this purpose. As for the evolved undead template, I like that idea, but what about just giving away two free LA? Like this:

Tier 3 (necropolitan, gravetouched ghoul) can choose any LA 1 or 2 race or template and have it at LA 0, or the Evolved Undead template twice.

Tier 2 (mummified creature, wight) can choose any LA 1, or the Evolved Undead template once.

Tier 1 (wraith, vampire) gets nothing. How does that sound?

… Now I'm thoroughly confused. Vampire is overvalued, so … you're going to give everything but vampire free LA to spend? :smallconfused:

[Harbinger]

Well, if the choices are "give vampire 0 LA" or "give vampire 6 LA", obviously the former is better! But that's not the comparison here at all, because if you just give vampire for free no one would ever consider being a ghoul. Rather, it's "give vampire 30-40 points less than (or however much) ghouls for point buy", "give vampire 6 LA", or "give vampire 8 LA and gravetouched ghouls 2 LA". As such, moving from the standard to my suggestion cannot make things worse, and I really doubt that moving from the point buy setup to my suggestion makes things significantly worse either.

I'm aware the point buy thing isn't enough on it's own. That's the point of the thread. I'm trying to create a rough balance between the vampire and the ghoul, which I feel is accomplished quite nicely with the system I outlined.


… Now I'm thoroughly confused. Vampire is overvalued, so … you're going to give everything but vampire free LA to spend? :smallconfused:

The vampire isn't powerful enough to warrant losing eight levels, or even six, but it's a lot more powerful than a gravetouched ghoul, and somewhat more powerful than a wight. Hence, the rudimentary tier system. What exactly confuses you?

[Vhaidara]

Buggy, he's giving vampire +2LA and GTG +0LA.

[Harbinger]

Buggy, he's giving vampire +2LA and GTG +0LA.

No, I'm not. I'm letting the GTG have LA +2 races and templates for free.

As in, a level 10 GTG could have the winged template at LA 0, or be a half ogre, or take Evolved Undead twice, which a vampire who wanted to do the same would have to pay the normal LA 2.

[Zanos]

Sadness. I theorycrafted a group of good-aligned undead once. The hardest one to play would easily have been the ghast cleric of Pelor. Greater Turning hurts when you're powered by negative energy.

I wanna see if I can get a group/DM to run that team.
You mean Pelor the Burning Hate?
An all good undead caimpaign sounds like good times, though.



As for the topic, you could try gestalting them, but only allowing low tier classes for one side of the gestalt so the LA doesn't hit so hard.

Honestly I would just ask your players to tell you what they wanted to play and tweak the templates manually to bring them in line with each-other. Blanket fixes to broken systems usually produce unreliable results.

[Angelalex242]

Well...how about this exercise?

If Vampire was supposed to be as good a template as Saint (probably the most powerful template out there), what LA would it be? Give it the same ratios, etc.

I suspect it'll come out to +4 or so. It really isn't stronger then, say Half Fiend.

Level 12 Fighter Half Fiend vs. Level 12 Fighter Vampire, with identical stats before templates are added. Which would you rather be?

[TuggyNE]

The vampire isn't powerful enough to warrant losing eight levels, or even six, but it's a lot more powerful than a gravetouched ghoul, and somewhat more powerful than a wight. Hence, the rudimentary tier system. What exactly confuses you?

The part where you abandon almost any vestige of cost for the vampire's abilities. Making it, essentially, +2 LA (relative to other characters with the same racial choices and templates except for undeadifying template; for practical purposes there is not much difference between that and what you have now described) is far undervaluing its effectiveness.

I mean, given +6 NA, DR 10, fast healing, gaseous and alternate forms, minor energy resistances, partial unkillability, minor or significant boosts to all five remaining ability scores, +8 to half a dozen skills, five bonus feats of low to moderate quality, a natural weapon, Con drain, a minor minion ability, at-will dominate person, double energy drain, and a more lasting minion ability … what can gravetouched ghoul along with any +2 LA worth of templates give you to compare with that? Even the various weaknesses only really account for about 1 LA down.

[Mithril Leaf]

Remember that all Vampires become Lords for free upon reaching 10th level since it has no LA.

[Harbinger]

The part where you abandon almost any vestige of cost for the vampire's abilities. Making it, essentially, +2 LA (relative to other characters with the same racial choices and templates except for undeadifying template; for practical purposes there is not much difference between that and what you have now described) is far undervaluing its effectiveness.

I mean, given +6 NA, DR 10, fast healing, gaseous and alternate forms, minor energy resistances, partial unkillability, minor or significant boosts to all five remaining ability scores, +8 to half a dozen skills, five bonus feats of low to moderate quality, a natural weapon, Con drain, a minor minion ability, at-will dominate person, double energy drain, and a more lasting minion ability … what can gravetouched ghoul along with any +2 LA worth of templates give you to compare with that? Even the various weaknesses only really account for about 1 LA down.

You're right. It still isn't enough. Do you have any suggestions, specific or general, to make the lower tier undead more powerful without weakening the vampire or wraith?

[Vhaidara]

I would also nerf the vamps a bit.

1. No more at-will dominate. That's something you, as the DM, willl not want to deal with. Essentially, any beatstick Fighter or barabarian you try to throw at them will get thrown back at you.
I'd say downgrade it to Charm Person, maybe make it Cha mod/day.
2. Energy and Con drain: cut it in half.
3. DR: make it 5/silver or magic
4. Fast Healing: 2 instead of 5 (FH is incredibly good)
5. Ability scores: Actually pretty much on par with GTG + 2 evolutions
6. Children of the Night: this is an odd one. On one hand, it's a lot of things to summon (good and bad: powerful, but makes your turn take an hour). However, they have a 2d6 round delay before arriving and only stay or an hour. I'd say minimize the size of the summons (2 swarms or 2 wolves and a dire wolf [to account for the wolves losing more potential than the swarms)
7. Create Spawn: Ask the player to please not abuse it, or rule that there is a dysfunction in the character that prevents them from creating spawn (maybe have it be fixable by a later game quest
8. Skills: Half the bonuses
9. Feats: Drop Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative. The rest usually are just feat taxes on PrCs/other feats anyways

[Harbinger]

I'm liking Keledrath's suggestions. As much as I don't want to nerf the vampire, I'm forced to admit that they get a lot of problematic stuff. However, I'm not taking away their create spawn ability. The wight and wraith already get a more powerful create spawn abilities, and even the GTG has a limited one. However, I'm going to reduce the amount of spawn that any player can have to 1/2 CHA mod.

On the topic of improving the GTG, what if I were to give Tier 3s 4 LA for free, Tier 2s 2 LA, and Tier 1s none. In addition, Tier 3s get two free bonus feats and 8 free skill points at level 1, Tier 2s 1 feat and 4 skill points, and Tier 1s again nothing. Too much? Or still not enough?

[Zanos]

I recommend leaving create spawn for vampires as is, and just not have them be slaves to the vampire who created them.

The GTG, wraith, and wight create spawn abilities cause them to loss all of their class features, while the vampire could be running around with a legion of slaves with class levels.

[Harbinger]

I recommend leaving create spawn for vampires as is, and just not have them be slaves to the vampire who created them.

The GTG, wraith, and wight create spawn abilities cause them to loss all of their class features, while the vampire could be running around with a legion of slaves with class levels.

Rereading the page for the vampire templates makes me realize you're right. In that case I think I'll just make any created spawn simply become vampire spawn instead of getting the full vampire template added to their class levels.