Theory on why most of Team Tarquin don't try to improve the continent [Archive]

CaDzilla

2013-12-28, 07:30 PM

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-28, 07:34 PM

Or maybe it's because they're all Evil characters? Evil characters, I might add, who haven't been charged by their deity with a zany plan to make life better (unlike Redcloak)? Laurin cares about Hannah, Malack cared about serving Nergal, and Tarquin cares about story structure. That's it.

NerdyKris

2013-12-28, 07:37 PM

They aren't trying to improve it because that's not their goal. Their goal is to live posh, comfortable lives in power and let it all collapse when they're gone. They're evil. They have no motivation to continue the plan after they're gone. They just want the power and riches now.

Gift Jeraff

2013-12-28, 07:46 PM

I think it's because they're jackasses.

Kish

2013-12-28, 07:52 PM

As everyone else said: Because their ideal environment is one where everyone who doesn't belong to one of them suffers horribly.

Some may be less honest about this fact than Tarquin and Malack are/were, but it's fundamentally the case for all of them. If it was just to show that adventurers can't rule well, the aesop would be thoroughly broken by the fact that they're all monsters, leaving us with, "A borderline-epic fighter could only rule a miserable dystopia locked in constant war!--as long as he's also a rapist and solipsistic madman. A borderline-epic adventuring cleric could only create a church that wasn't at all supportive!--as long as he was a vampire who wanted to turn everyone on his continent into his slaves, fellow vampires, or food. Etc."

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-28, 08:18 PM

Bulldog Psion

2013-12-28, 08:24 PM

I think it's because they're jackasses.

I think this is as concise yet thorough an analysis as we can hope for. Thread over. :smallcool:

NerdyKris

2013-12-28, 08:38 PM

We also have an opposing example of an adventurer who did rule wisely and justly, namely Soon Kim in Azure City.

Was Soon Kim ever the ruler of Azure City, or simply a paladin in it's service?

hamishspence

2013-12-28, 08:45 PM

Soon was never the ruler as far as I can tell. War & XPs names Shojo's predecessor as Ronjo. (in the back of book guide to Azure City).

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-28, 08:50 PM

Was Soon Kim ever the ruler of Azure City, or simply a paladin in it's service?

Soon was never the ruler as far as I can tell. War & XPs names Shojo's predecessor as Ronjo. (in the back of book guide to Azure City).

Yeah, I think I goofed on that one. Soon turned the leadership of the Sapphire Guard to Ronjo before he died. :smallredface:

CaDzilla

2013-12-28, 09:23 PM

I think this is as concise yet thorough an analysis as we can hope for. Thread over. :smallcool:

agreed -

hoff

2013-12-28, 10:10 PM

who haven't been charged by their deity with a zany plan to make life better (unlike Redcloak)?

Malack was charged with making their life better.

By killing them in mass, which is a blessing from his god.

NihhusHuotAliro

2013-12-28, 10:27 PM

I think it's because they're jackasses.

YEeeeeeeeeeeeah, this.

NerdyKris

2013-12-28, 10:30 PM

Malack was charged with making their life better.

By killing them in mass, which is a blessing from his god.

Although his grasp on what his god wants may be tenuous at best, given that he begged Nergal to save him when he died.

Paseo H

2013-12-28, 10:52 PM

I think this is as concise yet thorough an analysis as we can hope for. Thread over. :smallcool:

As eloquent an analysis as it is, I don't want the thread to be over. How else are we going to keep busy while waiting?

NerdyKris

2013-12-28, 10:56 PM

Angel Bob

2013-12-28, 11:48 PM

Although his grasp on what his god wants may be tenuous at best, given that he begged Nergal to save him when he died.

I see it more along the lines of Malack interpreting the will of Nergal in a way that would prove most comfortable to him personally. "No, my vast slaughterhouse of vampire food is definitely all about making the appropriate sacrifices to Nergal's glory. The fact that I get to eat the sacrifices is a convenient and entirely unexpected bonus."

Malack was a pretty cordial and polite guy, and pretty pious as well, but I don't think anything could have made him accept his own destruction, not even the will of his god. When it comes down to brass tacks, Malack was Evil, and was playing the game for his own benefit and comfort above all else.

BTW, I say this as an avid fan of Malack, and would consider him possibly my favourite character in the whole comic. So don't anyone think I'm just bashing on him because I dislike Twilight. :smalltongue:

Amphiox

2013-12-29, 12:47 AM

Their scheme depends on maintaining a status quo of carefully controlled chaos. Changing the continent to a significant degree requires the type of massive civic engineering project that is likely to set off a cascade of unanticipatable social and structural changes, which might negatively impact the continuation of plan.

They may not want to risk such a thing.

Also, that kind of change, even supported with epic level magic, is an undertaking that requires dedication - in other words it is done by rulers who have ambitions towards making lasting improvements to the world. This bunch does not read as a group with such ambitions. They just want to rule for the sake of living cushily.

DrBurr

2013-12-29, 01:59 AM

Even if we assume Tarquin and Co. weren't evil and looking out for themselves.

The south part of the western continent is a volatile region with few resources, funds or stability. People were conquering and being conquered long before these guys showed up to to build their Empire. The only reason Tarquin's group has been successful so far is because their the ones conquering their own cities while the other states had the wool over their eyes, and because they don't seem to be financing anything else besides they're military and lavish lifestyles. And they've only managed to rule a third of the desert.

Should Tarquin reallocate some of his funds to improve his citizen's lives that'd mean shrinking his army and risk invaders or revolutionaries, or cutting back on his incomplete palace, which I'd wager is built with slave labor.

I'm not saying it'd be impossible to build a nice nation on the fringe of the great barren desert but It'd take alot of money and allies from either the elves or the North and South Continents willing to protect it. And we know the Elves have the lovely Go-Away mountains so I doubt they'd jump to help a couple humans.

The Oni

2013-12-29, 02:36 AM

According to Tarquin's own explanation, he IS improving the continent. Yes, it's under one of three harsh and brutal dictatorships, all of which are secretly the same dictatorship wearing different hats, but it's (possibly) preferable to constant warfare and upheaval. Whether Tarquin genuinely believes that or was just spinning a yarn to get Elan to be OK with his Magnificent Bastardry is unclear.

Living Oxymoron

2013-12-29, 03:05 AM

They do not try to improve the continent because that wasn't their goal to begin with. The goal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) was simply to get everything they wanted in their lives without having to take the risk of an adventuring life. The plan was to cleverly rule the continent behind the scenes throughout puppet kings and queens, ensuring their survival in the middle of the chaotic geopolitical scenario of the Western Continent.

So when Laurin said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html) that she did "that thing" because Hannah could have a life far way from "all this", "that thing" refers to the scheme and "all this" is related to the adventuring life or career. Probably, Laurin already had her daughter when she was an adventurer, and didn't want that Hannah had a similar lifestyle, which is often risky, violent and unpredictable.

She is also probably a westerner, and because of that she expressed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html) the general resentment that the people of the continent must have towards elves in the duel against Vaarsuvius. But as Kish pointed out in another thread, she is a hypocrite for blaming the elves for the misery of the westerners, when she knows the problems of the continent, but doesn't try to solve them, even though she has means to do that, just to maintain her power and wealth (it's certainly different from what Kish wrote, by the idea remains the same, I guess).

factotum

2013-12-29, 03:28 AM

Yes, it's under one of three harsh and brutal dictatorships, all of which are secretly the same dictatorship wearing different hats, but it's (possibly) preferable to constant warfare and upheaval.

There still is warfare and upheaval, though...the three empires change names and boundaries fairly frequently (remember Tyrinaria?), and any places that aren't already part of the three big boys will get taken over eventually (see: Free City of Doom). It might be more stable than it was before, but I bet the actual amount of people getting killed and losing their homes probably isn't much different.

Heksefatter

2013-12-29, 05:10 AM

I think it's because they're jackasses.

As pointed out by others already, this analysis is concise and accurate.

rbetieh

2013-12-29, 05:11 AM

Oh but they are improving the continent. EoB is a place of unrivaled entertainment where bread and circuses abound. EoS is a place of virtue that stands to protect the poor unfortunate souls from that madman running EoT. And, if it weren't for Mirron, the Weeping King would be lashing out at his own subjects, not those rabble nations that don't want to be a part of a cool empire. Improvements abound on the western continent, as you can clearly see.

Of all the continents, it's the most improved. Think of the southern continent. Everything has gotten worse since the Hobgoblins moved in. And the Northern continent has real issues with lawlessness. Every town the OOTs has visited has had someone get murdered or mugged. How many murders or muggings have you seen thus far on the western continent (state sponsored assassinations, of course, don't count as they are Assassinations, not murders)?

So you see, this is indeed a much improved continent. Less monster problems, less issues with antisocial misanthropes. Plenty of bread and entertainment. And it is only those people that don't "Get It" that suffer, as it should be. :smallbiggrin:

Trillium

2013-12-29, 05:19 AM

We also have an opposing example of an adventurer who did rule wisely and justly, namely Soon Kim in Azure City.

You mean the guy who tried to wipe out all potentially enemy species and ultimately incurred the wrath of the Chosen of the Dark One, who in turn destroyed his city?
The difference between Team Tarquin and Soon is only in the amount of people they cared about. TT care about themselves and their progeny (well, except Tarquin), Soon cared about a single city. All others could burn and suffer, for what they cared.

Morty

2013-12-29, 06:21 AM

Do we suddenly need a theory for that? They're not trying to make things better because they stand to profit from warmongering and exploiting the divided and bloody politics of the Western Continent. If that's not obvious, I don't know what is.

Rodin

2013-12-29, 08:12 AM

Morty

2013-12-29, 08:27 AM

Yes, the jackasses explanation covers it quite accurately and succinctly.

Ghost Nappa

2013-12-29, 03:34 PM

I think it's because they're jackasses.

Could they be dire jackasses?:smalltongue:

Jay R

2013-12-29, 05:07 PM

They have tried to improve the continent, and they have succeeded. They have improved the continent for everybody they care about.

The continent was unruly and impossible for would-be tyrants to hold. It is now quite tractable and fairly straightforward for would-be tyrants to hold. That is improvement (from the point of view of the tyrant class).

Edit: Oh, did you mean why don't they try to improve it for the people they are actively trying to ruthlessly crush beneath their steel boots and then publicly disembowel as a warning to others?

Gosh, I have no idea why the bad guys would act like villains.

veti

2013-12-29, 05:08 PM

I'll take a stab at it. Is there any way this con could have worked for a good aligned group? I'd imagine you'd have to tweak the backstabbing a bit, but I wonder if it would be possible to keep the ruse up while minimizing deaths?

I don't see why a good-aligned group couldn't work a similar con. Of course the details would be very different, but the general outline would be the same.

Pick two or three existing countries with pliable rulers. "Advise" said rulers, co-ordinating your efforts and minimising bloodshed, until these three countries are significant regional powers. Then maintain an armed, tense, but mostly peaceful standoff between three "rival" power blocs, each internally governed according to some reasonable standard of justice and 'rights'. After a decade or so of this, start making trade treaties and generally softening relations between the blocs, until you end up with one big happy family.

It'd take a few skill ranks in 'Politics (Applied)', but I don't see why it couldn't work.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-12-29, 05:21 PM

I don't see why a good-aligned group couldn't work a similar con.

It wouldn't be similar, because that group wouldn't have to stay behind the scenes.

Matt620

2013-12-29, 05:27 PM

They don't improve it because, for the most part, they just don't care about everyone else. Presumably, they get along well enough with each other, but they just don't care about the rest of the people.

They're just creating a system that's easy to manage in the environment they have. And make a complete assload of money.

Amphiox

2013-12-29, 05:27 PM

It wouldn't be similar, because that group wouldn't have to stay behind the scenes.

The continuous regular overthrow of rulers, rebellions, and expansionistic wars would also not be a part of any good-aligned scheme.

Lawful good characters would also likely balk at the levels of political deception of misdirection that would be involved.

Keltest

2013-12-29, 05:28 PM

factotum

2013-12-29, 05:44 PM

rbetieh

2013-12-29, 06:11 PM

I agree with the others--if this was a good-aligned group doing this, whatever they came up with would not be remotely similar to what Team Tarquin is doing. Our hypothetical good-aligned group would no doubt be trying to fix the underlying problems that caused the entire continent to become a free-for-all of small kingdoms rather than just doing the same thing on a much bigger scale, for a start.

I thought the underlying problem here was that a bunch of Lizardfolk and Human kingdoms were competing with each other on a racial basis to gain control of the small portions of usable land on this continent. I would think the "Good" solution would be the classic game of Sapphire Guards and Goblins. After all, that is the "Good" solution already posited once in this comic.

I doubt Tyranny to end Racism is a "Good" solution either. But I fail to see what the "Good" solution is. Peaceful protests, sit-ins, and non-violent marches? Not one adventurer, regardless of alignment, advocates for that. Celia might, but she isn't an adventurer. Elan might try hand-puppetry, I suppose. I guess this goes to show that worlds built upon the concept of "Holding out for a hero" make no sense at all.

Keltest

2013-12-29, 06:17 PM

Jay R

2013-12-29, 07:58 PM

I don't see why a good-aligned group couldn't work a similar con.

Because a crucial aspect of it is that governmental leaders are being killed off just as fast as they ever were. Choosing patsies to rule as figureheads at your direction until they die in assassinations or revolutions in a year or two, also at your direction, does not technically qualify as "good".

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-29, 08:51 PM

Because a crucial aspect of it is that governmental leaders are being killed off just as fast as they ever were. Choosing patsies to rule as figureheads at your direction until they die in assassinations or revolutions in a year or two, also at your direction, does not technically qualify as "good".

It doesn't technically qualify as "Neutral", either. Team Tarquin's con is something that a gang of Super-villains, like Baron Zemo's original group of Thunderbolts or Norman Osborne's original Dark Avengers, would try to pull off. For that matter, the IFCC themselves could not have come up with a better way to cause trouble and Chaos in the Western Continent, short of sending Sabine to tempt Nale into overthrowing his father and abruptly ending the scheme.

orrion

2013-12-29, 09:19 PM

I thought the underlying problem here was that a bunch of Lizardfolk and Human kingdoms were competing with each other on a racial basis to gain control of the small portions of usable land on this continent. I would think the "Good" solution would be the classic game of Sapphire Guards and Goblins. After all, that is the "Good" solution already posited once in this comic.

Er, no. Genocide is never Good. Moreover, there's no evidence that every nation is only lizardfolk or humans. Enor and Gannji wouldn't be able to freely enter Tarquin's empire if that were true, and there probably wouldn't be a lizardfolk as Minister.

I doubt Tyranny to end Racism is a "Good" solution either. But I fail to see what the "Good" solution is. Peaceful protests, sit-ins, and non-violent marches? Not one adventurer, regardless of alignment, advocates for that. Celia might, but she isn't an adventurer. Elan might try hand-puppetry, I suppose. I guess this goes to show that worlds built upon the concept of "Holding out for a hero" make no sense at all.

Good doesn't mean "don't kill" or "don't defend." The Good solution could possibly be to topple one of the Evil empires and then reform it from within while defending it from incursion. When solidified, that party could then either repeat it or bring further nations into their own.

What makes Tarquin and Co.'s scheme Evil is their indiscriminate attitude towards death and to a lesser extent their plan to rule, oppress, and wallow in their own glory.

Keltest

2013-12-29, 09:22 PM

veti

2013-12-29, 10:47 PM

It wouldn't be similar, because that group wouldn't have to stay behind the scenes.

Because if they are good and working towards a legitimate peace, its not a "con" its real diplomacy.

The group would have to stay hidden, and work it as a con, in the early stages because they need to maintain an illusion of struggling, rivalrous power blocs rather than quietly-cooperating ones. Otherwise, they'd trigger the "common enemy" reflex that did for Tarquin first time through.

It's inherent in the con design that some bloodshed will continue to happen, because you're not trying to rule the whole continent directly - there are still a whole bunch of semi-independent countries, you can't try to control them all, and sometimes their rulers will go off the rails. However, it still qualifies as good because (a) this would be significantly less than the level of bloodshed that happens anyway, and (b) the level would decline over time, and would eventually be more or less eliminated.

Because a crucial aspect of it is that governmental leaders are being killed off just as fast as they ever were. Choosing patsies to rule as figureheads at your direction until they die in assassinations or revolutions in a year or two, also at your direction, does not technically qualify as "good".

In the first place, I'm not convinced that's as "crucial" as Tarquin seems to think. In the second place, even if it is "crucial", you could stage the same effect (revolutions/coups) and just have the old ruler quietly retire, rather than necessarily being bloodily murdered.

Keltest

2013-12-29, 10:52 PM

The group would have to stay hidden, and work it as a con, in the early stages because they need to maintain an illusion of struggling, rivalrous power blocs rather than quietly-cooperating ones. Otherwise, they'd trigger the "common enemy" reflex that did for Tarquin first time through.

It's inherent in the con design that some bloodshed will continue to happen, because you're not trying to rule the whole continent directly - there are still a whole bunch of semi-independent countries, you can't try to control them all, and sometimes their rulers will go off the rails. However, it still qualifies as good because (a) this would be significantly less than the level of bloodshed that happens anyway, and (b) the level would decline over time, and would eventually be more or less eliminated.

In the first place, I'm not convinced that's as "crucial" as Tarquin seems to think. In the second place, even if it is "crucial", you could stage the same effect (revolutions/coups) and just have the old ruler quietly retire, rather than necessarily being bloodily murdered.

Common enemy implies that they are attempting to take over other nations through force rather than working at peace through diplomacy. The scenarios would by necessity be totally different, because a good person would not voluntarily serve as a general for a red dragon or other evil emperor figure (although the empress of blood specifically may be so stupid as to be a nonissue in this particular aspect).

As for the figureheads fading into the background, its unlikely simply because that raises questions that they don't want to have to answer.

Forikroder

2013-12-29, 11:14 PM

I think I found an answer to this
Most of Team Tarquin's experience is in battle. Any skill points that they gain go to things related to battle or robbing stuff. Sure, they can kill dragons and steal their stuff, but they probably can't cook their own food or manage their money. Tarquin is always the general in the puppet ruler's army because he only knows combat and theater. He has no idea how to make an efficient legal system or how to . The only one who had anything needed to run a nation was Malack, because he spent most of his spare time researching things for his everyday life as a priest of Nergal. Any combat techniques that he had where there for utility's sake (i.e. exotic holds for escaping prey). The whole point of this party is to show what would happen if adventurers settled down and ruled a continent.

EDIT: Also think about this: what would these guys each be doing if they had not taken Tarquin's advice
why hasnt ANYONE? the high priest in Azure city was around redcloaks level, we have people like the order of the scribble, presumably TT isnt the only party above level 16 so why has noone else bother terraforming the desert?

have you ever considered they cant? that the super meta discussions about the obscure magical items that could conceivably be chained together in order to terraform the desert simply dont exist in OoTS verse? or that the Gods dont like the idea of the mere mortals deciding how there world would be? or that without direct access to the strings of reality its simply not possible to make the drastic large scale changes neccesary to turn the Desert into tropical paradise?

hydroplatypus

2013-12-29, 11:50 PM

why hasnt ANYONE? the high priest in Azure city was around redcloaks level, we have people like the order of the scribble, presumably TT isnt the only party above level 16 so why has noone else bother terraforming the desert?

have you ever considered they cant? that the super meta discussions about the obscure magical items that could conceivably be chained together in order to terraform the desert simply dont exist in OoTS verse? or that the Gods dont like the idea of the mere mortals deciding how there world would be? or that without direct access to the strings of reality its simply not possible to make the drastic large scale changes neccesary to turn the Desert into tropical paradise?

For that matter the gods of the universe might even like the idea of terraforming the desert, and stop it anyways. After all, their prior attempts to screw around with reality too much caused the snarl to appear. I find it likely that magic powerful enough to terraform a desert might trigger a similar reaction (albeit on a smaller scale). Or at least it seems likely enough that the gods might take an interest in stopping it.

orrion

2013-12-30, 12:02 AM

Snails

2013-12-30, 02:15 AM

For that matter the gods of the universe might even like the idea of terraforming the desert, and stop it anyways. After all, their prior attempts to screw around with reality too much caused the snarl to appear. I find it likely that magic powerful enough to terraform a desert might trigger a similar reaction (albeit on a smaller scale). Or at least it seems likely enough that the gods might take an interest in stopping it.

That is an interesting point. Fantasy worlds (e.g. Middle Earth) are allowed to look unnatural and "fake" for the very reason that (perhaps) a demi-god or god decided they like the look of the map that way. It is not necessarily an accident that approximately half this continent is desert. Desert Gods may have laid their claim here, and Forest Gods won the bid for the northern half.

Adding merely mortal magic to the equation cannot be counted on to have predictable results on this scale, because in the big picture it may not be simple physical forces causing what we see.

dtilque

2013-12-30, 02:25 AM

Of all the continents, it's the most improved. Think of the southern continent. Everything has gotten worse since the Hobgoblins moved in. And the Northern continent has real issues with lawlessness. Every town the OOTs has visited has had someone get murdered or mugged. How many murders or muggings have you seen thus far on the western continent (state sponsored assassinations, of course, don't count as they are Assassinations, not murders)?

So you see, this is indeed a much improved continent. Less monster problems, less issues with antisocial misanthropes. Plenty of bread and entertainment. And it is only those people that don't "Get It" that suffer, as it should be. :smallbiggrin:

Well, there was that spate of mysterious deaths (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html) only a couple weeks ago. What has TT done about that? Huh? Huh?

rbetieh

2013-12-30, 02:34 AM

Er, no. Genocide is never Good. Moreover, there's no evidence that every nation is only lizardfolk or humans. Enor and Gannji wouldn't be able to freely enter Tarquin's empire if that were true, and there probably wouldn't be a lizardfolk as Minister.

Comic 680.... "The Human and the Lizard RACES (emphasis added) have been fighting over the livable scraps that are left for 500 years"...In Tarquins empire this is no longer true because Tarquin and his team forced integration. That is to say, they thought Racism was an inconvenience, so they outlawed it. Heavy handed, for sure.

Good doesn't mean "don't kill" or "don't defend." The Good solution could possibly be to topple one of the Evil empires and then reform it from within while defending it from incursion. When solidified, that party could then either repeat it or bring further nations into their own.

What makes Tarquin and Co.'s scheme Evil is their indiscriminate attitude towards death and to a lesser extent their plan to rule, oppress, and wallow in their own glory.

Contractors on the Death Star....

No what makes the Tarquin scheme evil is that it is Tyrannical, and that they are personally benefiting from the scheme at the expense of everyone else. At issue is what the "Good" solution to the problems of 500 years of race-based war would be, and the comic offers us only one example, and not a very good one. Creating another little kingdom in this environment solves nothing, especially since the other racial kingdoms are still out there, fighting for your scraps. You cant defend it indefinitely without taxing your people into the ground and killing a lot of good and neutral aligned soldiers. Tarquins scheme simply cannot be played by a good-aligned person in this environment.

But, it did end racism in his kingdom....

rbetieh

2013-12-30, 02:41 AM

Well, there was that spate of mysterious deaths (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html) only a couple weeks ago. What has TT done about that? Huh? Huh?

He didn't know those people existed and who is to say that they are in his jurisdiction at all? In the City of Blood, only the right people die. Do not mistake Tarquins Police Powers for his Military Powers. A man can have both, but he must separate the the two...

Oh where is a good clip of Ilem Garak when you need one....

factotum

2013-12-30, 02:55 AM

Comic 680.... "The Human and the Lizard RACES (emphasis added) have been fighting over the livable scraps that are left for 500 years"

If it was just humans and lizards fighting each other then there'd be two large empires glaring at each other across the sands. We know this is not the case. Before Team Tarquin implemented their plan, there were dozens of warring kingdoms across the continent, so the meaning of the quote isn't that "humans were fighting lizards for control", it is "humans and lizards were all fighting each other for control regardless of what race they are".

rbetieh

2013-12-30, 03:26 AM

If it was just humans and lizards fighting each other then there'd be two large empires glaring at each other across the sands. We know this is not the case. Before Team Tarquin implemented their plan, there were dozens of warring kingdoms across the continent, so the meaning of the quote isn't that "humans were fighting lizards for control", it is "humans and lizards were all fighting each other for control regardless of what race they are".

I think the sentence is succinct enough. The noun is races, the verb is fighting, the time period is over 500 years. I don't see why any of that implies that the humans and lizards must all band together. The general account of the geopolitical situation of this continent is a bunch of human kingdoms have been fighting a bunch of lizard kingdoms for the scarce resources of the continent. No need for super-empires, it doesn't even follow.

Morty

2013-12-30, 06:35 AM

Rodin

2013-12-30, 07:43 AM

I think the sentence is succinct enough. The noun is races, the verb is fighting, the time period is over 500 years. I don't see why any of that implies that the humans and lizards must all band together. The general account of the geopolitical situation of this continent is a bunch of human kingdoms have been fighting a bunch of lizard kingdoms for the scarce resources of the continent. No need for super-empires, it doesn't even follow.

Except that this interpretation isn't supported by what we see in-comic - lizardfolk living harmoniously with humans everywhere we see. Sandsedge has a healthy mix of humans and lizardfolk, Tyrinaria has numerous lizardfolk in the military, the table at the unnamed city Elan searches has lizardfolk and humans both at the same table telling jokes.

What's more, the heads of all the empires we've seen have been either fully human or mixed - Empire of Blood has a dragon leader with a human "advisor", Sweat and Tears both have humans as the leaders, the Free City of Doom appears mostly human and was invaded by the mixed-race forces of the Empire of Blood.

From what we've seen, it seems to be the sort of mix you might expect. There are some primarily human nations, some primarily lizardfolk nations (Reptilia, for example), and the rest are ethnically diverse. And all of them are at war with one another - humans are fighting humans and lizardfolk, while the lizardfolk are fighting lizardfolk and humans.

The Western continent is very egalitarian in it's ultra-violence.

Living Oxymoron

2013-12-30, 08:34 AM

What some people don't seem to realize is that "fixing" the Western Continent, whatever that would entail, would be a hell of a lot harder than what Tarquin and his pals have been doing. They're simply directing the continent's existing fractured political situation for their benefit. If they, or some other high-level people, were to somehow stop the people from warring against each other all the time... where would they even start?

But doing the right thing is generally harder than fighting for selfish achievements. The whole problem is that some people are not understanding that the primary goal of the Team Tarquin was not the regeneration or at least the organization of the Western Continent; they were interested mainly in living the rest of their lives in luxury rather than risking them adventuring. For me, the explanation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html) that the cartographer lady gives is a sign that nothing really changed in the continent during the years that the Team has been ruling it.

Fnordius

2013-12-30, 08:51 AM

I don't see why a good-aligned group couldn't work a similar con. Of course the details would be very different, but the general outline would be the same.

Pick two or three existing countries with pliable rulers. "Advise" said rulers, co-ordinating your efforts and minimising bloodshed, until these three countries are significant regional powers. Then maintain an armed, tense, but mostly peaceful standoff between three "rival" power blocs, each internally governed according to some reasonable standard of justice and 'rights'. After a decade or so of this, start making trade treaties and generally softening relations between the blocs, until you end up with one big happy family.

It'd take a few skill ranks in 'Politics (Applied)', but I don't see why it couldn't work.

What you suggest is very much in the vein of how the Culture works in the late, great Iain M. Banks' series of novels went. A utopian interstellar civilization who meddled in the affairs of primitives, steering them through implanted agents. Much like Star Trek's Federation, but without the Prime Directive.

"Good" adventurers would be in a similar position, preferring to be the advisors, doctors and diplomats, with far less overthrows of leaders than Tarquin and Company were prone to, though I would not put them above ensuring that an irredeemably evil ruler would be quietly replaced by an heir not of his choosing and sooner than he expected, or ensuring that the young prince has his head filled with deviant thoughts about being fair and whatnot.

factotum

2013-12-30, 10:38 AM

"Good" adventurers would be in a similar position, preferring to be the advisors, doctors and diplomats, with far less overthrows of leaders than Tarquin and Company were prone to

Lawful Good would definitely go down that route. Chaotic Good might well be willing to do a bit of the old regime change here and there, provided they were convinced the new regime would be a definite improvement over the old one...

rbetieh

2013-12-30, 10:48 AM

Except that this interpretation isn't supported by what we see in-comic - lizardfolk living harmoniously with humans everywhere we see. Sandsedge has a healthy mix of humans and lizardfolk, Tyrinaria has numerous lizardfolk in the military, the table at the unnamed city Elan searches has lizardfolk and humans both at the same table telling jokes.

What's more, the heads of all the empires we've seen have been either fully human or mixed - Empire of Blood has a dragon leader with a human "advisor", Sweat and Tears both have humans as the leaders, the Free City of Doom appears mostly human and was invaded by the mixed-race forces of the Empire of Blood.

From what we've seen, it seems to be the sort of mix you might expect. There are some primarily human nations, some primarily lizardfolk nations (Reptilia, for example), and the rest are ethnically diverse. And all of them are at war with one another - humans are fighting humans and lizardfolk, while the lizardfolk are fighting lizardfolk and humans.

The Western continent is very egalitarian in it's ultra-violence.

How can you take the Post-Tarquinian in-comic depiction of the current situation to dispute the In-Comic Pre-Tarquinian historical account? You Can't.

Xelbiuj

2013-12-30, 10:51 AM

Kish

2013-12-30, 10:55 AM

How can you take the Post-Tarquinian in-comic depiction of the current situation to dispute the In-Comic Pre-Tarquinian historical account? You Can't.
Soooo...your claim is that while Tarquin, by his own admission, couldn't outright conquer the continent, he could and did fundamentally alter why the wars take place a full 180 degrees, from "The wars are strictly racially motivated" to "the wars treat race as irrelevant"?

Your interpretation of the mapmaker's phrasing is...non-universal, to say the least; her flashback panels clearly depict "humans supplant lizardfolk ruler and put lizardfolk ruler's head on a sword, followed by humans supplant human ruler and put human ruler's head on a sword."

("Limited to just you, as far as I've seen" is also accurate. Someone who argues against the claims you're making is not thereby disputing anything that's said in the comic.)

To say that the human and lizard races are fighting does not require that one side has all the humans and the (single) other side has all the lizardfolk, nor that every faction is either a human faction which opposes the lizardfolk factions (but not the other human factions) or a lizardfolk faction which opposes the human factions (but not the other lizardfolk factions), nor that the battle is fundamentally racially motivated. It only requires the fighters include both humans and lizardfolk. The situation presented in the comic has many mixed-race factions, each of which opposes every other mixed-race faction without much concern for who the ruler is. Before and after Tarquin's scam started. There is not the slightest indication Tarquin has accomplished anything good. There is certainly no indication that he effected an imagined ending to imagined racism (or even any logical reason why he would; if that kind of motivation for war existed in the comic, the logical approach, given Tarquin's goals and Tarquin's level of evil, would be to use it, not suppress it--and the only necessary difference would be Malack and perhaps Jacinda, or Malack alone with assistants like Kilkil, being consistently assigned to manage the lizardfolk kingdom, while Tarquin's partner was always one of the party's humans).

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-30, 11:08 AM

orrion

2013-12-30, 11:09 AM

Comic 680.... "The Human and the Lizard RACES (emphasis added) have been fighting over the livable scraps that are left for 500 years"...In Tarquins empire this is no longer true because Tarquin and his team forced integration. That is to say, they thought Racism was an inconvenience, so they outlawed it. Heavy handed, for sure.

We've seen lizardfolk and humans interacting in more than Tarquin's empire.

In fact, the first thing we see when we get to Sandsedge are two children - one lizardfolk, one human - collaborating to steal from Durkon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html)

That summation in 680 is merely describing the participants. It is not a description of the sides. It's like if I told you World War II was mainly the Germans, Americans, British, Japanese, and Russians fighting (yes, I realize there were others involved to a smaller extent). I haven't told you what side of the conflict each was on with that information.

Contractors on the Death Star....

No what makes the Tarquin scheme evil is that it is Tyrannical, and that they are personally benefiting from the scheme at the expense of everyone else. At issue is what the "Good" solution to the problems of 500 years of race-based war would be, and the comic offers us only one example, and not a very good one. Creating another little kingdom in this environment solves nothing, especially since the other racial kingdoms are still out there, fighting for your scraps. You cant defend it indefinitely without taxing your people into the ground and killing a lot of good and neutral aligned soldiers. Tarquins scheme simply cannot be played by a good-aligned person in this environment.

Your problem is the continuing interpretation of the wars as race-based. Even if it was true there's no reason a Good scheme has to do the same thing anyway.

You couldn't defend it indefinitely against continued assault, sure, but there's nothing that indicates that nations are under constant and unending sieges. Tarquin was able to take a huge army away from his nation without worrying about losing it instantly.

Nobody is suggesting that Tarquin's scheme be played by Good-aligned people. The suggestions have altered Tarquin's scheme significantly. The only thing that remains the same in the scenarios is the goal of unification. The methods and reasons are totally changed.

But, it did end racism in his kingdom....

The racism is entirely in your head.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-30, 11:12 AM

We've seen lizardfolk and humans interacting in more than Tarquin's empire.

In fact, the first thing we see when we get to Sandsedge are two children - one lizardfolk, one human - collaborating to steal from Durkon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html)

That summation in 680 is merely describing the participants. It is not a description of the sides. It's like if I told you World War II was mainly the Germans, Americans, British, Japanese, and Russians fighting (yes, I realize there were others involved to a smaller extent). I haven't told you what side of the conflict each was on with that information.

Nor have you indicated which side began the war, why they began the war, or what their conduct during the war was like. It's about as useful as a history textbook from Erfworld, which relates which side fell on which turn, and nothing else.

orrion

2013-12-30, 11:15 AM

Nor have you indicated which side began the war, why they began the war, or what their conduct during the war was like. It's about as useful as a history textbook from Erfworld, which relates which side fell on which turn, and nothing else.

... That was the point, you know.

In Watchmen, Adrian Veidt ran a "good" version of the con and saved humanity from nuclear war, despite themselves.
While not 100% analogous it does serve the idea that lying, playing both sides, and some properly done bloodshed can keep peace between nations.

I seem to recall that he did this in large part by wiping someplace off the map. Hardly an indication of "Good."

I question his conclusions, anyway (note: basing off the movie here). Sure, the world was united against Dr. Manhattan for the moment. Putting aside the idea that the stupidity of mob rule would triumph for any appreciable length of time - "oh, gee, guys, the guy who has done nothing but good - including stopping wars WITHOUT doing what he just did - suddenly went berserk for no good reason" - people don't tend to stay united against nebulous threats. Just how long do you suppose humanity would stay together against a threat that doesn't actually do anything to them ever again?

Shale

2013-12-30, 11:37 AM

I question whether Adrian Veidt's plan was "good", so much as "the second least Evil scheme possible for a villain to pull off".*

Ozymandias is basically the villain of "Watchmen", and one of the ways "Watchmen" subverts the standard Superhero story is that the protagonists (Nite Owl, Rorschach, Silk Spectre and Dr. Manhattan) fail to prevent Ozymandias' scheme and then decide not to bring him to justice (save Rorschach, who is murdered by Dr. Manhattan to prevent Veidt's scheme from unravelling).

*The absolute least Evil scheme ever concocted by a villain was Dr. Doom's plan to free his mother's soul from Hell.

Ozymandias' scheme is super evil, just in a "necessary evil, I swear" sort of way. Hundreds of thousands of deaths!

Anyway, it's moot because the second-least-evil scheme ever concocted by a villain is Calendar Man's plan to erase the writing from all Christmas cards in Gotham City.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-30, 11:37 AM

... That was the point, you know.

I felt my explanation was more succint. :smalltongue:

Getting back to the Western Continent's eternal misery, the problem on the Western Continent is that warlords, would-be conquerors and anyone looking to make a name for themselves, sally forth and conquer territory. All. The. Time. Tarquin and Co. are taking advantage of this constant turnover to increase their holdings. Their three empires are basically holding companies, with the territory shuffled around, a new CEO appointed to each one at regular intervals, while Tarquin and his five colleagues remain the sole shareholders. All these holding companies are doing is acquiring other companies through hostile takeovers, but they make sure to stagger which holding company acquires which target and they swap shares to keep their rivals guessing.

This doesn't improve life on the Western Continent, and it's not supposed to. It provides a cushy lifestyle to Tarquin and Co., while everyone else suffers. Team Tarquin's patsies live short lives (albeit as kings and queens), the subjects of these Empires are oppressed, any attempt to topple their Empires are doomed to fail, since most enemies (such as the Free City of Doom or Reptilia) don't realize that they face a single enemy, not three feuding enemies.

Good Aligned characters wishing to help the people of the Western Continent would be better off trying Diplomacy (to get the various nations to stop their constant warfare), spells such as Plant Growth (to improve crop yields), and magic items like Decanters of Endless Water (to provide an endless supply of potable water to the inhabitants of the desert) than con games and behind the thrones shenanigans.

Rodin

2013-12-30, 11:41 AM

How can you take the Post-Tarquinian in-comic depiction of the current situation to dispute the In-Comic Pre-Tarquinian historical account? You Can't.

Because the cartographer speaks in the present tense? Because there's zero evidence that the racial make-up of the continent has shifted from "Lizard-folk at war with dirty humans" to "Lizard-folk co-existing happily with humans" in the mere 20 or so years Tarquin has been doing his thing?

I didn't refer to time periods because there was no need. The evidence for a race war is an odd interpretation of a single line by the cartographer. The evidence for a diverse mix of races is in about a dozen different places seen in multiple different locations (including places that are unchanged both pre- and post-Tarquin, like Sandsedge).

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-30, 11:44 AM

I seem to recall that he did this in large part by wiping someplace off the map. Hardly an indication of "Good."

He teleported a telepathic giant squid into New York. The thing died seconds after arrival, and it's telepathic death throes killed the entire population of New York. But his scheme worked, at least temporarily, in that the U.S. and Soviets backed down from Defcon 1, since they were convinced an alien invasion was imminent. The movie dumped the squid in favor of a convoluted scheme involving the disintegration of New York. When teleporting a telepathic giant squid into a major metropolitan area is the more intelligent plot, you know that your movie is in bad hands. :smallamused:

Ozymandias' scheme is super evil, just in a "necessary evil, I swear" sort of way. Hundreds of thousands of deaths!

Anyway, it's moot because the second-least-evil scheme ever concocted by a villain is Calendar Man's plan to erase the writing from all Christmas cards in Gotham City.

But did the Calendar Man's scheme actually work? Ozymandias' scheme worked, however temporarily. And Dr. Doom's plan to free his mother's soul from Mephisto worked, just not the way he'd expected.

When Dr. Doom and Dr. Strange confronted Mephisto in Hell, they only succeeded in freeing the soul of Doom's mother when she renounced her son. That must really sting: the only way for his mom to get out of Hell was for her to acknowledge how Evil her little Victor had become. :smallfrown:

AKA_Bait

2013-12-30, 12:38 PM

Ozymandias' scheme is super evil, just in a "necessary evil, I swear" sort of way. Hundreds of thousands of deaths.

Just a note on scale, there were millions of deaths, not hundreds of thousands. Ozymandias' plan effectively nuked New York City. In the 1980's (when Watchmen was first published) that population ranged from 7 to 7.3 million people, not hundreds of thousands. When the, awful, movie came out that number was over 8 million.

From what we've seen, it seems to be the sort of mix you might expect. There are some primarily human nations, some primarily lizardfolk nations (Reptilia, for example), and the rest are ethnically diverse. And all of them are at war with one another - humans are fighting humans and lizardfolk, while the lizardfolk are fighting lizardfolk and humans.

The Western continent is very egalitarian in it's ultra-violence.

I think that it's also worth observing that not having Team Tarquin pull the continent out of a perpetual race war also seems consistent with the Giant's attempts to deal with race throughout the comic. The racial discrimination and violence story is/was being told through Redcloak's arc and the Black Dragon/Familicide story line. The Giant's anti-racial/species discrimination message there is pretty clear. It would muddy that message significantly if Team Tarquin, who are obviously evil and eager villains in this story, were indirectly agents for the forces of good by "forcing integration" through totalitarian means.

Shale

2013-12-30, 12:46 PM

But did the Calendar Man's scheme actually work? Ozymandias' scheme worked, however temporarily. And Dr. Doom's plan to free his mother's soul from Mephisto worked, just not the way he'd expected.
Surprisingly, yes!

Well, I mean, the world blew up immediately afterward due to unrelated circumstance, but the Christmas cards went first.

rbetieh

2013-12-30, 02:27 PM

Soooo...your claim is that while Tarquin, by his own admission, couldn't outright conquer the continent, he could and did fundamentally alter why the wars take place a full 180 degrees, from "The wars are strictly racially motivated" to "the wars treat race as irrelevant"?

Adding quotation marks to non-quotes does nothing for the argument. Who said either of the above quotes? The races are at war, not so much because lizards hate humans or the reverse, but because those lizards over there control that watering hole over there and why is that fair, humans need water too. This is a race-based resource war. Motivated by both scarcity AND race.

Your interpretation of the mapmaker's phrasing is...non-universal, to say the least; her flashback panels clearly depict "humans supplant lizardfolk ruler and put lizardfolk ruler's head on a sword, followed by humans supplant human ruler and put human ruler's head on a sword."

Again with the false quotes, where did you get these words? The words read on the strip read "Every Year, half a dozen new hotshot geniuses raise an army and conquer themselves a new kingdom." "Within a year, most of them've been assasinated or had their country steamrolled by THAT year's new conquerors."

The depiction in those two panels is of that sequence of events; which is a second problem. The Kingdoms are at war yes, and on top of that, a whole bunch of random Tarquins keep showing up, raising armies, and carving out brand new kingdoms out of what is already there (presumably because they are all vulnerable from fighting each other all the time).

("Limited to just you, as far as I've seen" is also accurate. Someone who argues against the claims you're making is not thereby disputing anything that's said in the comic.)

Don't care to argue Kish-isms with Kish, sorry.

To say that the human and lizard races are fighting does not require that one side has all the humans and the (single) other side has all the lizardfolk, nor that every faction is either a human faction which opposes the lizardfolk factions (but not the other human factions) or a lizardfolk faction which opposes the human factions (but not the other lizardfolk factions), nor that the battle is fundamentally racially motivated.

True. A bunch of human kingdoms are fighting a bunch of lizard kingdoms for territory. That is what I said. I excluded nothing. The Cartographer summarized the situation as I have stated it. On the whole, someone looking at the past 500 year history would see the Human and Lizard races are at war.

It only requires the fighters include both humans and lizardfolk. The situation presented in the comic has many mixed-race factions, each of which opposes every other mixed-race faction without much concern for who the ruler is.

Many, you say? We have been in Sandsedge and Tyrinaria (and the Draketooth domain, perhaps). Somehow, you gained some privileged information into the makeup of all the other nation-states in this continent. So, inform us, how are humans treated in Reptillia? Do the Lizards like to vacation in East Despotamia? Is serving Omelets considered too insensitive and cruel for Cruelvania? You must know.

Before and after Tarquin's scam started. There is not the slightest indication Tarquin has accomplished anything good. There is certainly no indication that he effected an imagined ending to imagined racism (or even any logical reason why he would; if that kind of motivation for war existed in the comic, the logical approach, given Tarquin's goals and Tarquin's level of evil, would be to use it, not suppress it--and the only necessary difference would be Malack and perhaps Jacinda, or Malack alone with assistants like Kilkil, being consistently assigned to manage the lizardfolk kingdom, while Tarquin's partner was always one of the party's humans).

"Power I Can't access is no Power at All". Tarquin suppresses that which he cannot control. Why can't he control the general animosity between the races? Dont know. But tarquin himself states that there are Human Lands and there are Lizardfolk lands. These people are racially divided. That doesnt mean no humans live in lizard lands or vice-versa. It means some lands are controlled by lizards and others controlled by humans. And yes, they are fighting each other for control of the best lands.

Kish

2013-12-30, 02:39 PM

The races are at war, not so much because lizards hate humans or the reverse, but because those lizards over there control that watering hole over there and why is that fair, humans need water too. This is a race-based resource war. Motivated by both scarcity AND race.
[...]
Somehow, you gained some privileged information into the makeup of all the other nation-states in this continent. So, inform us, how are humans treated in Reptillia? Do the Lizards like to vacation in East Despotamia? Is serving Omelets considered too insensitive and cruel for Cruelvania? You must know.

Remarkable. Truly remarkable.

I get that you have an issue with me. And that you don't recognize any function for quotation marks other than "denotes a direct quote." And that you are blithely oblivious to the irony of your reasserting your initial, incorrect, claims and stating that the cartographer said them, when she didn't, and breaking out lines like "Somehow, you gained some privileged information." But ya know? That's still not support for your claims. From the very first time you posted that the wars were motivated by racism before Tarquin somehow changed what motivated them, you've been making assertions built on nothing but more evidenceless assertions. I am not the only person to have pointed it out--to which your response has been to claim, incorrectly, that those people are contradicting the cartographer or the comic, or to simply ignore them (it appears you are more interested in arguing Kish-isms with Kish than in arguing Rodin-isms with Rodin or orrion-isms with orrion).

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-30, 02:52 PM

Surprisingly, yes!

Well, I mean, the world blew up immediately afterward due to unrelated circumstance, but the Christmas cards went first.

Was this pre-Crisis? Because Earth-1 was getting blown up and getting reassembled on a near weekly basis in the early 1970's. (I'm sure that's not what DC was expecting to happen when they hired Jack Kirby. Just goes to show that the only way to properly contain Kirby KrackleTM is Excelsorium!)

orrion

2013-12-30, 03:21 PM

Adding quotation marks to non-quotes does nothing for the argument. Who said either of the above quotes? The races are at war, not so much because lizards hate humans or the reverse, but because those lizards over there control that watering hole over there and why is that fair, humans need water too. This is a race-based resource war. Motivated by both scarcity AND race.

Do you understand how quotation marks work in the English language? Serious question.

You have shown zero credible evidence that shows the war is race-based.

Again with the false quotes, where did you get these words? The words read on the strip read "Every Year, half a dozen new hotshot geniuses raise an army and conquer themselves a new kingdom." "Within a year, most of them've been assasinated or had their country steamrolled by THAT year's new conquerors."

You can use quotes for summary and/or emphasis as well as restating another person's words. Those aren't false quotes.

The depiction in those two panels is of that sequence of events; which is a second problem. The Kingdoms are at war yes, and on top of that, a whole bunch of random Tarquins keep showing up, raising armies, and carving out brand new kingdoms out of what is already there (presumably because they are all vulnerable from fighting each other all the time).

None of which is racially motivated. Again, THE VERY FIRST COMIC IN THE DESERT shows a distinct lack of racism. In fact, the first PANEL shows lizardfolk and humans wandering around the same town without animosity.

True. A bunch of human kingdoms are fighting a bunch of lizard kingdoms for territory. That is what I said. I excluded nothing. The Cartographer summarized the situation as I have stated it. On the whole, someone looking at the past 500 year history would see the Human and Lizard races are at war.

What you said is inaccurate at best and grossly wrong at worst. Your conclusion that "the Human and Lizard races are at war" requires a clear-cut distinction or declaration, and you don't have it. What we have is a bunch of nations composed of both humans and lizardfolk fighting. There's no sign that either race makes distinctions about who they fight or who their allies are.

Many, you say? We have been in Sandsedge and Tyrinaria (and the Draketooth domain, perhaps). Somehow, you gained some privileged information into the makeup of all the other nation-states in this continent. So, inform us, how are humans treated in Reptillia? Do the Lizards like to vacation in East Despotamia? Is serving Omelets considered too insensitive and cruel for Cruelvania? You must know.

There's no need to know. Your conclusion requires such absolute knowledge because if even one nation DOESN'T do what you say then your conclusion is demonstrably false (which has been shown). Our conclusion contains no such absolutes.

"Power I Can't access is no Power at All". Tarquin suppresses that which he cannot control. Why can't he control the general animosity between the races? Dont know. But tarquin himself states that there are Human Lands and there are Lizardfolk lands. These people are racially divided. That doesnt mean no humans live in lizard lands or vice-versa. It means some lands are controlled by lizards and others controlled by humans. And yes, they are fighting each other for control of the best lands.

That there are some lands controlled by lizards and some by humans doesn't mean they hate each other and go to war over that hatred.

Shale

2013-12-30, 03:24 PM

Was this pre-Crisis? Because Earth-1 was getting blown up and getting reassembled on a near weekly basis in the early 1970's. (I'm sure that's not what DC was expecting to happen when they hired Jack Kirby. Just goes to show that the only way to properly contain Kirby KrackleTM is Excelsorium!)

Just a few years ago, actually. It was in the tie-in comic to the Batman: The Brave And The Bold cartoon. The universe was destroyed by a zero-continuity version of the Crisis On Infinite Earths antimatter wave, leaving Batman and Adam Strange to put everything back together. They may have also invented Santa Claus in the process.

rbetieh

2013-12-30, 03:24 PM

Remarkable. Truly remarkable.

I get that you have an issue with me. And that you don't recognize any function for quotation marks other than "denotes a direct quote." And that you are blithely oblivious to the irony of your reasserting your initial, incorrect, claims and stating that the cartographer said them, when she didn't, and breaking out lines like "Somehow, you gained some privileged information." But ya know? That's still not support for your claims. From the very first time you posted that the wars were motivated by racism before Tarquin somehow changed what motivated them, you've been making assertions built on nothing but more evidenceless assertions. I am not the only person to have pointed it out--to which your response has been to claim, incorrectly, that those people are contradicting the cartographer or the comic, or to simply ignore them (it appears you are more interested in arguing Kish-isms with Kish than in arguing Rodin-isms with Rodin or orrion-isms with orrion).

Except I never claimed Tarquin changed what motivated the wars, and certainly not the wars to which Tarquin and Company are not a party to. I said Tarquin has seemingly outlawed Racism within his own kingdom.

Tell me why are my words "lines" when it is apparently fine for you to abuse the majority rules argument?

Remarkable, indeed.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-30, 03:27 PM

Just a few years ago, actually. It was in the tie-in comic to the Batman: The Brave And The Bold cartoon. The universe was destroyed by a zero-continuity version of the Crisis On Infinite Earths antimatter wave, leaving Batman and Adam Strange to put everything back together. They may have also invented Santa Claus in the process.

Chico Marx: "Hey, you canna fool me! I know there's no such thing as a "sanity clause"!"

veti

2013-12-30, 03:32 PM

Common enemy implies that they are attempting to take over other nations through force rather than working at peace through diplomacy. The scenarios would by necessity be totally different, because a good person would not voluntarily serve as a general for a red dragon or other evil emperor figure (although the empress of blood specifically may be so stupid as to be a nonissue in this particular aspect).

As for the figureheads fading into the background, its unlikely simply because that raises questions that they don't want to have to answer.

Anyone who looks like uniting the continent is a "common enemy" to all the other people who want to rule the continent, regardless of their methods.

And I'm working on the assumption that, of the 40-odd kingdoms on the old Western Continent, exchanging rulers every two or three years - at least some of those rulers, some of the time, must have been good- or at least neutral-aligned, and wouldn't object to co-operating.

As for figureheads retiring - it happens all the time in our world. Usually they're exiled, but in more enlightened cases, they're able to retire to a quiet estate in their own country. I can't mention names 'cuz of board rules, but you should be able to think of some examples - if not, PM me and I'll send you links.

Tarquin triggered that reflex because he conquered a bunch of nations very quickly - apparently alone - and set himself up as a ruler.

I doubt a group that knocked down one nation and stayed there for a bit would have the same problem, especially if the nation was actually able to stay stable and prosper.

Sure, anyone(*) could do that. But that wouldn't do anything to change the continent, just improve one corner of it. And if their favoured country started to look peaceful and prosperous, the neighbours would all pile into it.

("Why rob banks? Because that's where the money is." - Willie Sutton (attr.))

The trick is to unite kingdoms without the other (less good) rulers realising what you're doing, at least not until it's too late, because if they do spot it, they'll stop you - no matter how good you are - because it means the end of a good gig for them.

(*) For values of "anyone" that include the rider "with a party much above about 12th level".

orrion

2013-12-30, 03:57 PM

Sure, anyone(*) could do that. But that wouldn't do anything to change the continent, just improve one corner of it. And if their favoured country started to look peaceful and prosperous, the neighbours would all pile into it.

("Why rob banks? Because that's where the money is." - Willie Sutton (attr.))

The trick is to unite kingdoms without the other (less good) rulers realising what you're doing, at least not until it's too late, because if they do spot it, they'll stop you - no matter how good you are - because it means the end of a good gig for them.

(*) For values of "anyone" that include the rider "with a party much above about 12th level".

Tarquin's scheme has taken decades, so you can't really debunk another scheme on the basis that it only starts with a corner of the continent.

AKA_Bait

2013-12-30, 04:17 PM

Chico Marx: "Hey, you canna fool me! I know there's no such thing as a "sanity clause"!"

Bravo sir! That is one of my all-time favorite lines in movie history.

Fnordius

2013-12-30, 04:47 PM

Lawful Good would definitely go down that route. Chaotic Good might well be willing to do a bit of the old regime change here and there, provided they were convinced the new regime would be a definite improvement over the old one...

I agree, up to the point that others here have mentioned with Ozymandias and sacrificing a few thousand to save millions — at least in the eyes of the heroes. The biggest difference is that "good" adventurers wouldn't do it for personal gain, and *that* is Tarquin's only motivation: personal riches, and glory.

I don't want to gloss over that point: Ozzy would still be CG due to the selfless nature of what he did—attempted to save lives, a classic "good" villain, much like the "good" Kingpriest of Istar in the Dragonlance Setting. Good does not always mean right in D&D.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-30, 04:47 PM

Bravo sir! That is one of my all-time favorite lines in movie history.

:smallbiggrin:

It's a great line because it works as part of the whole contract scene, and it works on it's own.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-30, 04:54 PM

I agree, up to the point that others here have mentioned with Ozymandias and sacrificing a few thousand to save millions — at least in the eyes of the heroes. The biggest difference is that "good" adventurers wouldn't do it for personal gain, and *that* is Tarquin's only motivation: personal riches, and glory.

I don't want to gloss over that point: Ozzy would still be CG due to the selfless nature of what he did—attempted to save lives, a classic "good" villain, much like the "good" Kingpriest of Istar in the Dragonlance Setting. Good does not always mean right in D&D.

The Kingpriest of Istar (and the slightly less famous ex-Paladin turned Darklord, Lady Elena Faithhold), and other D&D characters of Good Alignment who go on crusades and initiate pogroms tend to find that their Alignment has shifted, they lose their class features (if they are Clerics or Paladins) and they could find themselves becoming Blackguards, Darklords, Death Knights, or having a flaming mountain tossed onto their heads (along with everyone else in their city).

Soon Kim, Lord Ronjo and Lord Shinjo no doubt considered it vital that the Sapphire Guard prevent any Evildoers from threatening the Azure City gate. And in that regard, killing The Bearer of the Crimson Mantle and his or her immediate cronies is not an Evil act. Wiping out whole villages of Goblins, on the outside chance that they might, somehow, come to threaten the Gate, is entirely different. Paladins are supposed to be held to higher standards.

Doug Lampert

2013-12-30, 05:08 PM

... That was the point, you know.

I seem to recall that he did this in large part by wiping someplace off the map. Hardly an indication of "Good."

What's a few million deaths amoung friends?

I question his conclusions, anyway (note: basing off the movie here). Sure, the world was united against Dr. Manhattan for the moment. Putting aside the idea that the stupidity of mob rule would triumph for any appreciable length of time - "oh, gee, guys, the guy who has done nothing but good - including stopping wars WITHOUT doing what he just did - suddenly went berserk for no good reason" - people don't tend to stay united against nebulous threats. Just how long do you suppose humanity would stay together against a threat that doesn't actually do anything to them ever again?

The comic book ends with sufficient information to unravel the entire fraud ariving at a publisher dedicated to conspiracy theories.

Usually what conspiracy theorists say can be ignored, but in this case details were included. I suspect in the book world it will all unravel within a year or less. This is ignoring the unlikelihood of a nebulous threat represented by a single crashed spaceship holding the superpowers with no further evidence of alien intent, interest, or hostility.

Adrian had killed thousands to try to cover up his scheme, he'd killed millions to carry out his scheme, and for it to work he will have to kill far more in the future.

And it was all unneccessary. The whole point to the fraud was the claim that a world destroying nuclear war between the USA and USSR was inevitable and unavoidable without such a fraud.

I can offer a counter-example to that contention. It's called our world.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-30, 06:47 PM

What's a few million deaths amoung friends?

To Rorschach? Everything. A is always A, remember? For that matter, if Nite Owl were behaving more like Ted Kord, he'd say the same thing: A is always A. Mass murder is always wrong. He'd rather be gunned down by Max Lord (or disintegrated by Dr. Manhattan) than violate his principles.

Adrian had killed thousands to try to cover up his scheme, he'd killed millions to carry out his scheme, and for it to work he will have to kill far more in the future.

And it was all unneccessary. The whole point to the fraud was the claim that a world destroying nuclear war between the USA and USSR was inevitable and unavoidable without such a fraud.

I can offer a counter-example to that contention. It's called our world.

A) Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons didn't know that the Soviet Union would collapse in under five years, although even at the time "Watchmen" was being published, Gorbachev was pursuing his policy of Glastnost and the West was reciprocating,

B) In the nightmarish world "Watchmen" takes place in, the presence of costumed heroes, especially Dr. Manhattan, have raised the probability of nuclear war. Whether Ozymandias' trick with the squid will lead to Glasnost or not, they were on the brink of war. In this world, America won the Vietnam war using Dr. Manhattan and The Comedian, and that imbalance of power between the West and the Soviet Block was exacerbated by Nixon (elected in 1976, not 1969).

Could Ozymandias have come up with a scheme to prevent war without committing mass murder? Given how smart the guy is, I'm sure there was another way. This was just the easiest one, and that's one of the signature trademarks of a villain: they take the easiest way out. By contrast, Rorschach, who is willing to stand up for the people Ozymandias murdered, even at the risk of deterioration of global relations, is an example of someone taking the hard road. He may not care about the fallout, which is why Nite Owl and Silk Spectre should have backed him up, tried to make a plan to expose Ozymandias without causing a new round of tensions. But it's still the harder path, precisely because it entails taking risks. Ozymandias, secluded in Antarctica, far away from the consequences of his actions, didn't care that there were other ways, harder ways. He, like the Superior Spider-Man, felt that he could take lives so long as the greater good is served. That's pretty much how Dr. Doom, Lex Luthor, Ra's al-Ghul, Baron Zemo, and Norman Osborne behave.

i6uuaq

2013-12-30, 07:16 PM

Good Aligned characters wishing to help the people of the Western Continent would be better off trying Diplomacy (to get the various nations to stop their constant warfare), spells such as Plant Growth (to improve crop yields), and magic items like Decanters of Endless Water (to provide an endless supply of potable water to the inhabitants of the desert) than con games and behind the thrones shenanigans.

I'm curious. What other spells might be useful in such situations?

DaggerPen

2013-12-30, 08:01 PM

In Watchmen, Adrian Veidt ran a "good" version of the con and saved humanity from nuclear war, despite themselves.
While not 100% analogous it does serve the idea that lying, playing both sides, and some properly done bloodshed can keep peace between nations.

You and I have very different interpretations of Watchmen.

Racism has very little to do with the kingdoms overthrowing each other. Its just inexplicably easy to generate an army and overthrow a current kingdom, which means that people will of course do so regularly.

Actually, I feel like the army generation is the big point here. How do these various dictators keep raising armies? Presumably, they use a combination of financial/substantive incentives (good food, a living wage and a parcel of land over in Soontobeconqueredville) and pretty speeches (the folk over in Soontobeconqueredville are weak and decadent! We have the right to take all their stuff!) to rally troops together. But a high-level good-aligned party has the means to play merry havoc with this army-raising rather readily.

Want to weaken a nation's military? Get the party member with the highest charisma and best general diplomatic means to spread disillusionment with the situation amongst the ranks. Send the party rogue to raid the evil dictators' coffers and distribute money to the lower classes. Have the spellcasters start bringing in food and water creating magic items and make them available to the public. Why risk your life fighting for some random guy when these nice people are offering you all you need to live in comfort and care for your family?

Want to take over a nation? Make some helpful Suggestions to the ruler, and reform the country in the way you feel is best. Lure soldiers defecting from other armies over to your nation, either as soldiers of your own or as other skilled labor. Make alliances with the rulers who aren't too terrible, offering them the protection of a high-level adventurer in exchange for combining resources. Force the most despicable rulers into retirement, reform their infrastructure, and start focusing on quality of life improvements.

And if a rival nation, or coalition of nations, start to march on your capitol? Go weaken their military and make some helpful Suggestions to their generals.

This almost feels like it should be its own thread - come up with the best Neutral to Good plan possible to improve the Western Continent. I'd definitely be interested in seeing some proposals.

Doug Lampert

2013-12-30, 08:26 PM

To Rorschach? Everything. A is always A, remember? For that matter, if Nite Owl were behaving more like Ted Kord, he'd say the same thing: A is always A. Mass murder is always wrong. He'd rather be gunned down by Max Lord (or disintegrated by Dr. Manhattan) than violate his principles.

A) Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons didn't know that the Soviet Union would collapse in under five years, although even at the time "Watchmen" was being published, Gorbachev was pursuing his policy of Glastnost and the West was reciprocating,

But they did quite deliberately create a world in which it is fairly obvious that Adrian's evil plan will fail.

B) In the nightmarish world "Watchmen" takes place in, the presence of costumed heroes, especially Dr. Manhattan, have raised the probability of nuclear war. Whether Ozymandias' trick with the squid will lead to Glasnost or not, they were on the brink of war. In this world, America won the Vietnam war using Dr. Manhattan and The Comedian, and that imbalance of power between the West and the Soviet Block was exacerbated by Nixon (elected in 1976, not 1969).

Do we have any independent evidence that war is inevitable in the Watchmen world? We have the mass murdering monster's babbled self-justification, and we have a world which hadn't blown itself up with decades to do it in.

You and I agree that Ozymandius is an obvious villain. I simply disagree with accepting any of his statements or judgments or self-justifications without independent evidence.

I don't recall anything in the books that convinced me that anyone was going to press the button tomorrow if a self-proclaimed superhuman supergenius didn't save us. It was the same nebulous "this could happen any time" that I grew up with in this world.

The authors all but hit the readers with an anvil to say that the plot wouldn't work. Viedt thought it was a good idea, do we have any proof the rest of his judgments were any better than his judgment that this was a good plan?

rbetieh

2013-12-30, 09:13 PM

Actually, I feel like the army generation is the big point here. How do these various dictators keep raising armies? Presumably, they use a combination of financial/substantive incentives (good food, a living wage and a parcel of land over in Soontobeconqueredville) and pretty speeches (the folk over in Soontobeconqueredville are weak and decadent! We have the right to take all their stuff!) to rally troops together. But a high-level good-aligned party has the means to play merry havoc with this army-raising rather readily.

...

This almost feels like it should be its own thread - come up with the best Neutral to Good plan possible to improve the Western Continent. I'd definitely be interested in seeing some proposals.

Usually such a speech goes more like this:

We are poor, we are suffering, we will never get to face another day in the sun, as our fathers and forefathers did. Why is this so? Because of those monsters in Reptilia. For generations, they have humiliated us, tricked us, pushed us back and taken that which belongs to us. They laugh, LAUGH at us while we suffer. Well no more, today is the day we take back what is ours. Today is the day we regain our dignity. Today is the day that we return to our ancestral home and our vile enemy lies in ruin once and for all! For we are east-despotamians! We have a right from our Gods! It is our destiny to rule from the east ocean to the west ocean now until the end of time!!!!!

Simple steps for cult of personality type populism
1) Acknowledge that your audience does not have it very well off ... if they don't believe it, convince it that their life is not as great as it could be.
2) Establish that an outside agent is responsible for their current plight
3) Establish that the sole motivation for this outside agent injuring them is hatred (this becomes very credible to people the less "like them" these agent are, appearance, religion, speech, can all be a card played, but appearance is so obvious, that it is always a top card to be used....for a setting with multiple sentient species, appearance becomes super-super easy to use)
4) Establish that you can lead them to great victories and better life while at the same time bringing injury to the outside agent that hates you. This works even better if you can convince them that you are sacrificing yourself for their good fortunes and expect nothing in return. You are, after all, a Patriot.
5) Watch as hapless dupes sign up for your army, kill whomever you ask, and do so thinking always that they are doing The Right Thing.

I really really doubt there is a "Good"-aligned way to play this game. At some point, in order to keep your military going, you are going to have to pay/feed them. You have two choices, taxation or war-spoils. Most generals choose War Spoils because it doesn't cause any ill-will with the civilians.

hydroplatypus

2013-12-30, 09:18 PM

This almost feels like it should be its own thread - come up with the best Neutral to Good plan possible to improve the Western Continent. I'd definitely be interested in seeing some proposals.

New Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16701213#post16701213)

Haven't had time to think up a plan yet, but the thread should provide a good place to keep track of existing plans.

Keltest

2013-12-30, 09:28 PM

I really really doubt there is a "Good"-aligned way to play this game. At some point, in order to keep your military going, you are going to have to pay/feed them. You have two choices, taxation or war-spoils. Most generals choose War Spoils because it doesn't cause any ill-will with the civilians.

any "good" plan that is even remotely similar would involve Assuming power, then making your neighbors like you (and eventually each other) through diplomacy, trade, and military protection. This would (in theory) allow them to shrink their individual militaries and devote the resources to other things, such as increasing the yield from the livable terrain. This would allow the countries to become prosperous while remaining fairly secure due to a military alliance. At that point, if played properly, it could spread outward and eventually the peaceful empires would outnumber the hostile empires, or at least create a small number of stable governments rather than the constant chaos.

rbetieh

2013-12-30, 09:55 PM

any "good" plan that is even remotely similar would involve Assuming power, then making your neighbors like you (and eventually each other) through diplomacy, trade, and military protection. This would (in theory) allow them to shrink their individual militaries and devote the resources to other things, such as increasing the yield from the livable terrain. This would allow the countries to become prosperous while remaining fairly secure due to a military alliance. At that point, if played properly, it could spread outward and eventually the peaceful empires would outnumber the hostile empires, or at least create a small number of stable governments rather than the constant chaos.

This requires a lot of "good" despots to co-operate. One evil guy (or a good guy that has someone that really really hates him and this opponent also has a bunch of friends) can ruin the plan through entangling alliances....

It might work in theory, but when this blows up it does so creating a war of epic proportions....

DaggerPen

2013-12-30, 09:57 PM

Usually such a speech goes more like this:

We are poor, we are suffering, we will never get to face another day in the sun, as our fathers and forefathers did. Why is this so? Because of those monsters in Reptilia. For generations, they have humiliated us, tricked us, pushed us back and taken that which belongs to us. They laugh, LAUGH at us while we suffer. Well no more, today is the day we take back what is ours. Today is the day we regain our dignity. Today is the day that we return to our ancestral home and our vile enemy lies in ruin once and for all! For we are east-despotamians! We have a right from our Gods! It is our destiny to rule from the east ocean to the west ocean now until the end of time!!!!!

Simple steps for cult of personality type populism
1) Acknowledge that your audience does not have it very well off ... if they don't believe it, convince it that their life is not as great as it could be.
2) Establish that an outside agent is responsible for their current plight
3) Establish that the sole motivation for this outside agent injuring them is hatred (this becomes very credible to people the less "like them" these agent are, appearance, religion, speech, can all be a card played, but appearance is so obvious, that it is always a top card to be used....for a setting with multiple sentient species, appearance becomes super-super easy to use)
4) Establish that you can lead them to great victories and better life while at the same time bringing injury to the outside agent that hates you. This works even better if you can convince them that you are sacrificing yourself for their good fortunes and expect nothing in return. You are, after all, a Patriot.
5) Watch as hapless dupes sign up for your army, kill whomever you ask, and do so thinking always that they are doing The Right Thing.

I really really doubt there is a "Good"-aligned way to play this game. At some point, in order to keep your military going, you are going to have to pay/feed them. You have two choices, taxation or war-spoils. Most generals choose War Spoils because it doesn't cause any ill-will with the civilians.

Or you can port over to the elemental plane of earth and bring back a cartload of diamonds the size of watermelons. I'm assuming Laurinear-guild type resources here, which involve a whole lotta wealth creation options. Having fewer financial resources definitely makes the game a lot harder.

Keltest

2013-12-30, 09:58 PM

This requires a lot of "good" despots to co-operate. One evil guy (or a good guy that has someone that really really hates him and this opponent also has a bunch of friends) can ruin the plan through entangling alliances....

It might work in theory, but when this blows up it does so creating a war of epic proportions....

The continent is already in a near-perpetual state of war. Countries not actively involved in military conflict are planning for it.

It could not actually get worse through their actions. Anyone willing to go to such extreme lengths to make it worse than the current state would not feel restricted from doing so NOW just because the leaders aren't necessarily good.

Jay R

2013-12-30, 11:17 PM

I don't need a theory for why the bad guys aren't trying to make things better.

I would need a theory for why they were trying to make things better, if they were.If they

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-30, 11:52 PM

But they did quite deliberately create a world in which it is fairly obvious that Adrian's evil plan will fail.

In the long term it is likely that Rorschach's journal will be found and it's contents read, but will that be enough to convince people that Ozymandias was behind the "alien"? And if it does, will the U.S. and the Soviets, who decided to engage in diplomacy to fend off an alien invasion, resume their conflict? Will they target costumed crime-fighters? Will DC Comics actually publish a sequel to "Watchmen" after "Before Watchmen" was critically panned? Who knows.

Do we have any independent evidence that war is inevitable in the Watchmen world?

The U.S. and Soviets were at Defcon 2, about to enter Defcon 1 at any minute. The only reason thermonuclear war didn't break out was the sudden appearance of a giant squid.

You and I agree that Ozymandius is an obvious villain. I simply disagree with accepting any of his statements or judgments or self-justifications without independent evidence.

I don't recall anything in the books that convinced me that anyone was going to press the button tomorrow if a self-proclaimed superhuman supergenius didn't save us. It was the same nebulous "this could happen any time" that I grew up with in this world.

The authors all but hit the readers with an anvil to say that the plot wouldn't work. Viedt thought it was a good idea, do we have any proof the rest of his judgments were any better than his judgment that this was a good plan?

Ozymandias was impacted by a speech given by one of the Minutemen, where the older hero said "Someone has to save the world!" Ozymandias took it upon himself to be that savior, and in his moral calculus, New York's inhabitants were expendable. Rorschach completely rejects this idea. To Rorschach, A is always A. Murder is always murder. Of all the Charleston Heroes, Rorschach is the least changed from the hero who inspired him: Steve Ditko's The Question, and The Question would never rest until he either brought a killer like Ozymandias to justice, or died trying. The sad part is that Ted Kord, the Silver Age Blue Beetle, would have acted the same way. In "Countdown to Infinite Crisis", when placed in a similar situation to the one Rorschach was placed in, with Maxwell Lord holding a gun to Ted's head, and insisting that Ted join Checkmate, Ted refuses, demanding that Max pull the trigger.

Now that I think about it, Ted Kord's defiant reaction to Max Lord isn't that different to O-Chul's defiant speech to Redcloak: If I had the opportunity to save their lives by stopping you, I would, but I can't. Ted was tied up, beaten by Checkmate thugs, and was being threatened by a man he'd thought of as a good friend until recently. What's more, as Blue Beetle Ted was looked down upon by plenty of heroes, and he hadn't even been able to convince Booster Gold to help him investigate the lead that led him to Checkmate. Max was offering Ted respect, money and a chance to "do the right thing". All he had to do was betray his principles and he could avoid having his brains blown out. But he wouldn't accept, because he was a better man than Nite Owl was.

rbetieh

2013-12-31, 02:45 AM

I don't need a theory for why the bad guys aren't trying to make things better.

I would need a theory for why they were trying to make things better, if they were.If they

Well, you could have a theory about why the place the adventurers are visiting has such large problems in the first place...because if the place was all sunshine and lollipops, why would adventurers go there in the first place? The adventurers go to the town, buy supplies, and leave because there is no adventure to be had...kind of boring.

This is why every place the OOTs visits has problems, and most likely why they never set foot in Elven lands (well, except V to kill Mama Black).

If they walked into a place that was seriously reforming, it would be just as bad. The people would refuse the heros help because they are solving their own problems...how very sad.