(PF) Entering mystic theurge earlier than level 4?

[Kraken]

My friend and I were having an argument about whether SLAs are arcane/divine. Apparently, in PF they are (probably not in 3.5 though). Based on what list the spell appears on, the SLA is either arcane or divine (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qt6). Further, they count as casting spells for the purposes of pre reqs (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pt80&page=2?The-term-cast-as-a-part-of-abilities-and-how#56). PF's devs do continue to stun with their rules interpretations.

Anyway, a 3rd level cleric tiefling or aasimar could, for instance, dip wizard for one level, and then proceed right into mystic theurge, due to the racial SLA counting as being able to cast an arcane spell of second level or higher. But is there a way to get a divine and arcane SLA, each of second level or higher? That'd let you do cleric2/wizard1 as entry into mystic theurge, for instance. Due to the skill ranks, there's probably no way to get in earlier than that.

[lunar2]

My friend and I were having an argument about whether SLAs are arcane/divine. Apparently, in PF they are (probably not in 3.5 though). Based on what list the spell appears on, the SLA is either arcane or divine (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qt6). Further, they count as casting spells for the purposes of pre reqs (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pt80&page=2?The-term-cast-as-a-part-of-abilities-and-how#56). PF's devs do continue to stun with their rules interpretations.

Anyway, a 3rd level cleric tiefling or aasimar could, for instance, dip wizard for one level, and then proceed right into mystic theurge, due to the racial SLA counting as being able to cast an arcane spell of second level or higher. But is there a way to get a divine and arcane SLA, each of second level or higher? That'd let you do cleric2/wizard1 as entry into mystic theurge, for instance. Due to the skill ranks, there's probably no way to get in earlier than that.

if you are going to use that rules interpretation, those sla's are both arvane and divine, since they appear on the cleric list, as well.

[Gemini476]

Drow Noble doesn't qualify, sadly, since Deeper Darkness is a third-level Cleric spell rather than a second level one. That's one thing they aren't that great for, at least.

It still gets Levitate (a 2nd level Wizard spell), though.

It's also effectively LA+1, but that gets bought off pretty fast IIRC.

What are there for quick ways to grab a second level cleric spell?

[avr]

if you are going to use that rules interpretation, those sla's are both arvane and divine, since they appear on the cleric list, as well.

For spell-like abilities gained from a creature's race or type (including PC races), the same rule should apply: the creature's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
Just the one class, sorry.

[peacenlove]

Drow Noble doesn't qualify, sadly, since Deeper Darkness is a third-level Cleric spell rather than a second level one. That's one thing they aren't that great for, at least.

It still gets Levitate (a 2nd level Wizard spell), though.

It's also effectively LA+1, but that gets bought off pretty fast IIRC.

What are there for quick ways to grab a second level cleric spell?

Drow Noble is 41 point race, making it LA +3 in 3.5 edition standards. In PF point buy gets bought off automatically (10 points every 5 levels IIRC) so the drow noble would be compatible with other ~=10 point characters at level 16.

Normal Drow qualifies anyway with his darkness spell like

[Gemini476]

Drow Noble is 41 point race, making it LA +3 in 3.5 edition standards. In PF point buy gets bought off automatically (10 points every 5 levels IIRC) so the drow noble would be compatible with other ~=10 point characters at level 16.

Normal Drow qualifies anyway with his darkness spell like

Alright. I'm not entirely clear as to the rules introduced in the ARG, although I would like to note that the Devs said that the Drow Noble was effectively CR+1. (The race even says as much, although it's rather vague. "LA equal to class level" is one more than the standard for PCs, which is "LA equal to class level minus one".)

From the D20PFSRD:

Lead Pathfinder designer Jason Bulmahn states that Drow Noble characters should be one level less than characters of standard races but this information was rolled into the CR of the creature, rather than being separate as it should have been. While messageboard posts are not considered official errata, GMs are encouraged to consider this when trying to determine how powerful Drow Noble characters might be.

Also, I was more going for the Drow Noble since I suspected that it was pretty likely to have Sp's of high levels. It did! But the only spell that defaulted to Cleric that was higher than level 1 was level 3, which doesn't help qualify for Mystic Theurge.

[elonin]

Isn't this trick pointless? You may be able to qualify for MT. You don't have an existing class that allowed you to quality, so I think you'd only be able to advance your cleric casting.

[Spuddles]

Check out magic guilds in inner sea magic. Rank 5 gives you +1 spellcasting (not caster) level in a casting class. Rank 30 gives you +3 in one and +1 in another. Technically you dont even need any levels in the class- you could go paladin3/sorcerer7/mystic theurge 10 for 11 levels of oracle casting, full sorcerer, and the best paladin class features.


Isn't this trick pointless? You may be able to qualify for MT. You don't have an existing class that allowed you to quality, so I think you'd only be able to advance your cleric casting.

Wizard2/cleric1, advance the both.

[Kraken]

Isn't this trick pointless? You may be able to qualify for MT. You don't have an existing class that allowed you to quality, so I think you'd only be able to advance your cleric casting.

I don't think anyone was intending to suggest that. As it is right now, if you're say a wizard, you can drop a caster level to get dual progression for your next 10 levels. Given that wizards and clerics are pretty light on class abilities under certain playstyles, that can be a pretty good trade.

Also, would the cleric's trickery domain ability work? Combined with an arcane racial level 2 SLA, it'd let you go cleric1/any-arcane1/anything-at-all1 as an entry into mystic theurge.

[Craft (Cheese)]

SLAs are Arcane unless they come from a Divine class feature, like the Trickery domain Copycat power (since domain granted powers count as SLAs).

So this works, except that you need 2 levels in something because you need 3 skill ranks to get in to Mystic Theurge, and there's no way around that.

[Kraken]

Yeah, the screwy thing is it can be literally any class like my example mentioned. Now that I think about it, this same sort of thing is useful for eldritch knight entry. An aasimar could enter as any-arcane1/fighter1 no problem. And technically the arcane class is only there so that you actually get something out of EK's caster progression.

[Spore]

Check out magic guilds in inner sea magic. Rank 5 gives you +1 spellcasting (not caster) level in a casting class. Rank 30 gives you +3 in one and +1 in another. Technically you dont even need any levels in the class- you could go paladin3/sorcerer7/mystic theurge 10 for 11 levels of oracle casting, full sorcerer, and the best paladin class features.

No. You have to have at least 1 level in that class in order to advance its casting.

[Spuddles]

No. You have to have at least 1 level in that class in order to advance its casting.

That requirement is not in the MT rules as far as I can see.

[Kraken]

Are there any other theurge types in PF? 3.5 had a bunch of different flavors of dual progression classes, but I don't know of any more in PF.

[Spore]

That requirement is not in the MT rules as far as I can see.


+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

Just try this on your DM and let me hear how it went while I try to build an Aasimar Theurge off of Cleric 3 with Empyreal Bloodline.

You don't even KNOW what to key off your casting stat without investing into a single class level of a casting class. If you're Sorcerer, you could cast off of Int, Wis OR Cha. If you're a Witch, you can even key it off of Con.

You can't just assume anything like that. Even the interpretation, tho backed up by FAQ, that one single spell qualifies for having an entire 2th level spell list is shaky at best and didn't get by my DM.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Are there any other theurge types in PF? 3.5 had a bunch of different flavors of dual progression classes, but I don't know of any more in PF.

First-party? No. There's the DSP content though like the Cerebremancer and the upcoming Blade Caster and Battle Templar in Path of War.

[Spuddles]

Just try this on your DM and let me hear how it went while I try to build an Aasimar Theurge off of Cleric 3 with Empyreal Bloodline.

You don't even KNOW what to key off your casting stat without investing into a single class level of a casting class. If you're Sorcerer, you could cast off of Int, Wis OR Cha. If you're a Witch, you can even key it off of Con.

You can't just assume anything like that. Even the interpretation, tho backed up by FAQ, that one single spell qualifies for having an entire 2th level spell list is shaky at best and didn't get by my DM.

That's not how it works, and what's the DM have to do with anything. You dont even understand the rules being discussed.

Sp abilities allow you to qualify. The spellcasting levels you advance are given to you for free from the mage guild you join.

It you are confused about what ability score is used, it's right in the class description. Things like scarred witchdoctor or empyreal are archetypes that grant class features. You would get that just like you'd get a familiar- you wouldnt. So dont pick up witch casting unless you have another way to get a familiar.