Gestalt/Tristalt Questions

[Threadnaught]

So the third Campaign I planned to run for my players was supposed to be a Gestalt Campaign, but I was hoping I'd have a third player with us. So I gave both players the choice between a single Gestalt Character, a single Tristalt Character, or two Gestalt Characters. They both chose to have a single Gestalt Character, so I require some interesting combinations that use a Tier 1 Class. No Psionics please, I have a hard enough time keeping track of their characters and whatever (recurring) NPCs/monsters they're encountering as it is. Emperor Win, please have some a crapload of restraint.

Minimum book access (besides Core/SRD) for Race and Class options is to be Complete Divine, Dragon Compendium, Draconomicon, Dungeonscape, Eberron Campaign Setting (also the setting), Fiend Folio, Frostburn, Heroes of Horror Libris Mortis, Player's Handbook II, Races of the Dragon, Races of the Wild and Sandstorm.

Any suggestions?




Next item for discussion. One of my players whom I rant about a lot and who some of you'll probably be able to name here, is awful as a DM so I've chosen to forsake my time as a Player in order to DM an additional game for him. I gave him the choice between four regular Characters, two Gestalts or a single Tristalt Character. He chose the Tristalt and has decided on a Human Cleric//Druid//Monk and is thinking of becoming Dragonborn. I returned his copy of RotD to him last week, but iirc a Human Dragonborn loses their Bonus Feat and possibly the extra Skill Point as well. Stats are all 18s, I gave him a list of choices and he's a munchkin, go figure.
Now munchkin that he may be, he doesn't seem to have a good grasp on what Feats he'll most benefit from. His first choices are likely to make some of you lose it, so to speak. Blind Fight, then he decided to ditch that and go for Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike. Oh the horror.

I'm thinking of telling his tale of woe on these boards, Steve the Aboleth style, except with you wonderful people offering advice on how best to threaten his Character at each level.
I am so going to put him up against Revived Fossil Dire Tortoise starting level 7, after that and up to level 10 they'll be Awakened Evolved Revived Fossil Dire Tortoise with at least 3 Sorceror/Wizard levels, Non Associated Class Levels and Scintillating Scales ftw.

Would you fine upstanding citizens like to see this happening?

[Jack_Simth]

So the third Campaign I planned to run for my players was supposed to be a Gestalt Campaign, but I was hoping I'd have a third player with us. So I gave both players the choice between a single Gestalt Character, a single Tristalt Character, or two Gestalt Characters. They both chose to have a single Gestalt Character, so I require some interesting combinations that use a Tier 1 Class. No Psionics please, I have a hard enough time keeping track of their characters and whatever (recurring) NPCs/monsters they're encountering as it is. Emperor Win, please have some a crapload of restraint.

Part of this depends on how you want to handle LA, and what starting level you're using.

You've got two characters, and four basic roles to fill (Day After Pillbox, Batman, Skillmonkey, Meatshield). One way to do that is to have both play a Druid//Beguiler. Use the animal companions as the meatshields (and they're replaceable relatively easily), buff the ACs to high heaven and watch them clean house. Companion Spellbond (PHB II) (at 1st) and Natural Bond (Complete Adventurer) (you want it by 4th level, which is the earliest you can actually use it, so take it at 3rd... or retrain to it as you level up to 4th) are very handy when doing this - Natural Bond is used to mitigate the adjustment on advanced animal companions, Companion Spellbond lets you share spells with your animal companion while hiding a bit farther away from battle. Natural spell is, of course, a given on a Druid (at 6th level). The player characters focus on avoiding being obvious targets (with Hide & Move Silently as class skills, and Invisibility on their spell list, this is not usually hard). The biggest downside is a split casting stat (Wis, Int); it'd be good to find a way to migrate one of the two.

If you're starting at higher levels, advice changes a bit. Where are you starting them?


Next item for discussion. One of my players whom I rant about a lot and who some of you'll probably be able to name here, is awful as a DM so I've chosen to forsake my time as a Player in order to DM an additional game for him. I gave him the choice between four regular Characters, two Gestalts or a single Tristalt Character. He chose the Tristalt and has decided on a Human Cleric//Druid//Monk and is thinking of becoming Dragonborn. I returned his copy of RotD to him last week, but iirc a Human Dragonborn loses their Bonus Feat and possibly the extra Skill Point as well. Stats are all 18s, I gave him a list of choices and he's a munchkin, go figure.
Now munchkin that he may be, he doesn't seem to have a good grasp on what Feats he'll most benefit from. His first choices are likely to make some of you lose it, so to speak. Blind Fight, then he decided to ditch that and go for Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike. Oh the horror.

...
Seriously?

With that build, he will want:
Natural Spell
Extend Spell (so buffs last all day)
Quicken Spell (as he'll need to dump them fast for them to be useful... although this can wait a few levels, as he's only starting at 7th)
Natural Spell (because Wildshape)
Multiattack (so the natural attacks from Wildshape only suffer a -2 penalty while you're getting full iterative attacks from the Unarmed Strike on a Pounce).

Rest is gravy. He really should have gone Ninja instead of Monk, though; he'll need Trapfinding and UMD at some point. Which, come to think of it, leads into:


I'm thinking of telling his tale of woe on these boards, Steve the Aboleth style, except with you wonderful people offering advice on how best to threaten his Character at each level.
I am so going to put him up against Revived Fossil Dire Tortoise starting level 7, after that and up to level 10 they'll be Awakened Evolved Revived Fossil Dire Tortoise with at least 3 Sorceror/Wizard levels, Non Associated Class Levels and Scintillating Scales ftw.

Would you fine upstanding citizens like to see this happening?
Looks amusing. How does he plan to deal with things like traps and locked doors?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What level are they starting at? How are you dealing with level adjustment in gestalt?


That Cleric//Druid//Monk should seriously consider trading most of the Monk levels for a whole bunch of X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) dips, and switch Cleric for Cloistered Cleric. Something like (Fallen) Cobra-Strike Monk 2/ Corrupter Paladin 2/ Hexblade 4/ Arcane Duelist 4/ Blackguard 3/ Mystic Wanderer 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ whatever 1 should work. He should start out LN worshiping a N deity/ideal, turn undead via Cleric, then transition to NE and take Corrupter from Dragon 312 (NE version of Paladin). He'll get rebuke undead via Blackguard, for double the daily turn/rebuke attempts. That gets him:
Wis to AC, unnamed (Monk)
Cha to AC, Dodge (Arcane Duelist)
Cha to AC, Profane (Mystic Wanderer)
Cha to saves (Paladin)
Cha to saves (Blackguard)
Cha to saves vs spells and spell-like abilities (Hexblade)
Int to damage (Swashbuckler)
Cha to damage (Divine Might feat)

He should definitely start with two flaws for Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and Divine Metamagic: Persistent, plus his Human bonus feat which can be whatever he wants (probably something to meet a prerequisite later). I'd get the Spell domain for sure, and pick up a 3rd level Pearl of Power so he can use Anyspell twice to DMM: Persist both Shield and Wraithstrike. The Kobold domain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) (reflavored trap domain) will allow him to find and disarm traps, and Cloistered Cleric should give him plenty of skill points for that. Consider moving at least one Swashbuckler level up to his 11th character level for a Contemplative dip to gain another domain.

[Threadnaught]

Part of this depends on how you want to handle LA, and what starting level you're using.

If you're starting at higher levels, advice changes a bit. Where are you starting them?

I knew I forgot something important. Both start at 1st Level.
As for the handling of LA, I think I'll give them the option to take a +2 LA without the additional exp requirement.


...
Seriously?

Seriously.

I guess that's what you get for trying to munchkin up without knowing enough about optimization.


With that build, he will want:
Natural Spell
Extend Spell (so buffs last all day)
Quicken Spell (as he'll need to dump them fast for them to be useful... although this can wait a few levels, as he's only starting at 7th)
Natural Spell (because Wildshape)
Multiattack (so the natural attacks from Wildshape only suffer a -2 penalty while you're getting full iterative attacks from the Unarmed Strike on a Pounce).

Ooh, mistake in context. What I meant about the whole Dire Tortoise thing, is what I plan to send after him once he reaches 7th level. His Tristalt begins at 1st level, that way I can threaten him with those low CR monstrosities, like a Spider Swarm, without him having the ability to just shrug it off.

I will be playing to the best of my ability whenever he encounters anything. So while he will be allowed to munchkin up, he will be against the most horrible creatures I can muster. The more I allow him to abuse the rules to build a broken character, the more I use the rules to abuse his character during encounters.


He really should have gone Ninja instead of Monk, though; he'll need Trapfinding and UMD at some point.

I'll let him know.


Looks amusing. How does he plan to deal with things like traps and locked doors?

CaDzilla. I don't think he'd be expecting any locked doors or traps, since he rarely goes anywhere where they're in use in the current campaign with the other player. Then again, they rarely go anywhere where there's lots of treasure. :smallamused:
Of course, that'll all change when they know where the big money is. I have been teaching him how to prepare useful buffs and utility Spells, so maybe if I just tease them with the lost treasure of a long dead civilization, they'll both work it out after the first trap.


That Cleric//Druid//Monk should seriously consider trading most of the Monk levels for a whole bunch of X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) dips, and switch Cleric for Cloistered Cleric.

I'll suggest it to him.


He should definitely start with two flaws for Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and Divine Metamagic: Persistent, plus his Human bonus feat which can be whatever he wants (probably something to meet a prerequisite later).

He may decide to create a custom Bloodline, I don't suppose he could combine this with the Planning Domain to get cheap DMM, could he?
I will ask how he feels about using Bloodlines and Flaws next time I can. If he wants either, I'll ask for suggestions.

Based on the Feats he tried taking, I know he'd definitely benefit from Knowledge Devotion if he were to use the Cloistered Cleric variant.


Hopefully I'll still be able to kick his ass with a single CR1 Human Skeleton when he's 2nd level. :smallamused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hopefully I'll still be able to kick his ass with a single CR1 Human Skeleton when he's 2nd level. :smallamused:

A Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Dracolich Warrior 1 with two flaws for Epic Toughness twice is CR 1. That has 72 hp, a claw/claw/bite attack routine that paralyzes on each hit, a paralyzing gaze, and you can give it cheap scale mail for a decent AC.

[Threadnaught]

A Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Dracolich Warrior 1 with two flaws for Epic Toughness twice is CR 1. That has 72 hp, a claw/claw/bite attack routine that paralyzes on each hit, a paralyzing gaze, and you can give it cheap scale mail for a decent AC.

Ooh nice, he did tell me he hates Kobolds so it has a touch of irony. I think it's just because he's read Tucker's Kobolds. Of course, Epic Feats don't quite work that way, so it'd actually have 12HP.
1 Flaw for Positive Energy Resistance seems much better, as far as what's rules legal is concerned.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ooh nice, he did tell me he hates Kobolds so it has a touch of irony. I think it's just because he's read Tucker's Kobolds. Of course, Epic Feats don't quite work that way, so it'd actually have 12HP.
1 Flaw for Positive Energy Resistance seems much better, as far as what's rules legal is concerned.

Actually, per the Draconomicon page 66, under Epic Feats:
"Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels."

Kobolds use the same twelve age categories, so a venerable dragonwrought kobold is at least old age and can take epic feats. Note the above sentence makes no mention of true dragons, just that they be of the dragon creature type and at least old age per the twelve categories.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Actually, per the Draconomicon page 66, under Epic Feats:
"Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels."

Kobolds use the same twelve age categories, so a venerable dragonwrought kobold is at least old age and can take epic feats. Note the above sentence makes no mention of true dragons, just that they be of the dragon creature type and at least old age per the twelve categories.

Whelp

There went all chance of this thread going anywhere productive.

[Threadnaught]

Actually, per the Draconomicon page 66, under Epic Feats:
"Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels."

Looks like I'll have to borrow that book again. Thanks for the help. :smallbiggrin:


There went all chance of this thread going anywhere productive.

I dunno, level 7 and above looks rather painful for less abusive reasons. :smallamused:

[Jack_Simth]

I knew I forgot something important. Both start at 1st Level.
As for the handling of LA, I think I'll give them the option to take a +2 LA without the additional exp requirement.

In that case, they could benefit from the Shadow Creature Template (Lords of Madness, I think), the Half-Fey Template (Fiend Folio, oddly), or the Phrenic template (Expanded Psionic Handbook, made the SRD) - provided, of course, that you let the class levels count towards their hit dice (which is technically RAW).



Ooh, mistake in context. What I meant about the whole Dire Tortoise thing, is what I plan to send after him once he reaches 7th level. His Tristalt begins at 1st level, that way I can threaten him with those low CR monstrosities, like a Spider Swarm, without him having the ability to just shrug it off.

Ah. Still, those are some of the feats he can make use of.


I will be playing to the best of my ability whenever he encounters anything. So while he will be allowed to munchkin up, he will be against the most horrible creatures I can muster. The more I allow him to abuse the rules to build a broken character, the more I use the rules to abuse his character during encounters.... he's a dead man, twice over, unless he does a lot of running away. 1st level is rather prone to crit-deaths, and he doesn't have any insulation against such things.


CaDzilla. I don't think he'd be expecting any locked doors or traps, since he rarely goes anywhere where they're in use in the current campaign with the other player. Then again, they rarely go anywhere where there's lots of treasure. :smallamused:
Oh. Then a simple DMG-standard CR 1 Deeper Pit Trap has a reasonable chance of killing him.

[Threadnaught]

In that case, they could benefit from the Shadow Creature Template (Lords of Madness, I think), the Half-Fey Template (Fiend Folio, oddly), or the Phrenic template (Expanded Psionic Handbook, made the SRD) - provided, of course, that you let the class levels count towards their hit dice (which is technically RAW).

That is one freaky looking Centaur. Them butterfly wings.

I think I have a version of the Shadow Creature template in my Manual of the Planes, don't know if it's up to date though, seeing as MotP is 3.0 material.


... he's a dead man, twice over, unless he does a lot of running away. 1st level is rather prone to crit-deaths, and he doesn't have any insulation against such things.

Against my Druid that he had been hesitantly DMing for, he used a Dire Rat and almost killed me in the first session. Third one he set me up against a whole bunch of Giant Spiders, a CR5 encounter for two 2nd level characters. Single Class Characters.
He's lucky I don't throw him out against an Allip in his first encounter. Besides, he's got all 18s, the benefits of 3 Classes each level and an Animal Companion, possibly with Leadership later on.
He'll also get as many free Feats Flaws, Templates and a Bloodline if he wants them. He'll be fine.

Yes, finely chopped does count.


Oh. Then a simple DMG-standard CR 1 Deeper Pit Trap has a reasonable chance of killing him.

Before his first session with the Tristalt Character, I'm hoping he'll have learned something about traps and how to deal with them. I think I'll send them somewhere in the ruins of Taltasqua after they've dealt with the escaped weapon. I taught them to Fly by giving them quests that lead them to places where they really need flight, I taught them about Energy Resistance with a Lich, a Sahuagin Cleric's Energy Drain taught them Death Ward, they've learned the value of Freedom of Movement and BFC from the same Spellcaster who showed them how useful Illusions and their counters can be. And in t*D's last solo outing, I taught him the power of Dominate Humanoid, I'm wondering when he'll learn about it's almighty counter Mindblank Protection from Evil.
I'm pretty sure that if I almost kill their 13th level characters with a few well placed low CR traps, they'll take them more seriously.

I'm just hoping he isn't another ******* Druid in the Gestalt Campaign. :smallsigh: