Religion Most Likely to Perform a Takeover of a Town

[Pinkcrusade]

Hello, so, in a campaign I am going to run soon, a town's soldiers and militia will ride out to defend, and be slaughtered. The predominate religion (which is the basis of this question) is going to step up in a passively hostile manner (we aren't [I]ruling[I], but we are "guiding" you. It would preferably be a Lawful religion that isn't evil. Their whole thing is to defend the town, but also convert the people in a forceful manner (think fanatics to the extreme) and "guide" it with an iron fist.

Any suggestions? Does this sound like an act of a sect of St. Cuthbert possibly?

[JungleChicken]

That sounds awfully lawful evil

[Scow2]

Heironious to me. Or St. Cuthbert.

You do not have to respect other faiths to be Good.

[Werephilosopher]

You do not have to respect other faiths to be Good.

But Good gods tend to respect each other. Wouldn't that extend, at least in part, to their faiths?

[Vhaidara]

I second Cuthbert. Could be Heironeous, in one of his more crusader-sects

Hextor is the obvious answer (His symbol is a freaking iron fist), but you asked for non-evil.

Other lawfuls

Wee-Jas: I could see her taking over a town, just not really that directly

Zarus: God of Humans from Races of Destiny. Think Hitler as a god, with a thing against non-humans. Obviously, this is another LE option.

[QuintonBeck]

This definitely sounds evil. I second Zarus, you could even go the Burning Hate route and have them claiming to be followers of Pelor. I did something similar as a main plot in a sort campaign. You could even sprinkle in some legit followers of Pelor making the outside seem nicer if you don't have Pallys or other Clerics spamming detect evil around their brethren.

[Evandar]

It's hard to say. Trying to accomplish a Good cause with clearly Evil means might make them True Neutral at best? I've always liked that idea since reading Roy being judged as almost Neutral for 'accomplishing Lawful goals with Chaotic means' or however it was phrased.

I'd do St. Cuthbert because Zeal is in his portfolio.

[Scow2]

I just remembered another Greyhawk god who considers this sort of thing right up his alley! Pholtus!

[Telonius]

St. Cuthbert could work there. If this were Eberron, it would have "Silver Flame" written all over it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It depends, really. How dark do you want their endgame to be?

While Heironeous' faith as a whole may respect other good deities, any particular parish of the church is just as subject to corruption or even simple misinterpretation of the faith as any other lawful organization. The endgame here looks something like, "oops. We went a bit too far. Sorry."

St Cuthbert's dogma is known simply as "The Law" to his faithful. While they aren't tyrants by design, they do tend to put law and the public order well ahead of any individual. The endgame here looks something like, "Order is essential, but when the crisis passes we -may- consider relaxing the enforcement thereof."

Hextor is pretty straight forward. The line "we're just guiding you," would be a bald faced lie just to pacify and assuage the other faiths in the area until they could cement their iron rule.

Zarus followers could genuinely mean the "guiding you" line. There's just an implicit "to racial purity and human supremacy" attached to it. Could be fun to implement as a DM and to oppose as a player.

My personal favorite though, would be one of the Lords of the Nine. A cult of Dispater that hasn't revealed itself yet would fit the bill perfectly. They'd gradually increase the city's fortifications but also establish checkpoints and an ever tightening grip on the city's politics. The endgame here is "there is no way the enemy will ever breach our walls! BTW, all your souls are damned and we're letting devils walk the streets now."

[Twilightwyrm]

Especially if the threatening force is a chaotic one (bandits, marauders, pirates, orc hoards) the Church of St. Cuthbert is a good candidate (especially if the site has some religious, academic, cultural, or strategic importance to the church or kingdom at large, but in general the church would generall rather take over than see anarchy run amok). They are less likely to try and de jure forcefull convert everyone as de facto convert everyone (i.e. "You live under the protection of St. Cuthbert, you will follow his laws and rites, whether you technically worship him or not").

[Angelalex242]

As everyone else says, Hextor does this regularly. He's the only evil religion organized enough to pull it off consistently.

Nonevil?

St Cuthbert:There's no common sense in taking a town over.
Wee Jas:She's got better things to do.
Heironeus: ...Now here's an interesting idea

Hextor, evil dude that he is, took over a city and ruled it for however long. Hieroneus's people aren't going to put up with such Tyranny, so they naturally crusade in there and throw the evil bums out...unfortunately, the whole infrastructure went WITH the Hextorians, so now Hieroneus's people have to run the city, at least to help it get self sufficient again. But the city's been dependent on Clerical and Blackguard rule for so long that it's hard to wean them off Clerical and Paladin rule in the present. They also do good deeds who simply clean up the mess of evil, after all.

[Envyus]

Cuthbert is big on order and law and his servants tend to be very overzealous and sometimes tend to act downright like bullies in service to him. So I can see his faith taking over a town for it's own good.

Lawbringer Hemtose is a cleric of St. Cuthbert and is a good villain for something like this.

http://dc430.4shared.com/doc/9R-ssbpe/preview.html

[Scow2]

St. Cuthbert could work there. If this were Eberron, it would have "Silver Flame" written all over it.The Silver Flame is not intolerant of the Sovereign Host. They're too busy Not Getting Eaten By Demons to care who worships what.

[Envyus]

The Silver Flame is not intolerant of the Sovereign Host. They're too busy Not Getting Eaten By Demons to care who worships what.

I remember an ******* priest of the church having a sect of some elf god killed because he thought of them as heathens.

[Scow2]

The elf gods are undead, or at least close enough. Supernatural threats are to be exterminated.

[Coidzor]

Hello, so, in a campaign I am going to run soon, a town's soldiers and militia will ride out to defend, and be slaughtered. The predominate religion (which is the basis of this question) is going to step up in a passively hostile manner (we aren't [I]ruling[I], but we are "guiding" you. It would preferably be a Lawful religion that isn't evil. Their whole thing is to defend the town, but also convert the people in a forceful manner (think fanatics to the extreme) and "guide" it with an iron fist.

Any suggestions? Does this sound like an act of a sect of St. Cuthbert possibly?

Are they the ones killing off the town guard and the able-bodied people who are in the militia?

[Angelalex242]

It's iffy if St. Cuthbert himself tolerates this sort of thing.

If he does, then every other church of St. Cuthbert is suspect, because he could decide all towns are better ruled by his clerics.

If he does not, it's rather difficult to take control of a town without spells.

I personally am of the opinion St. Cuthbert himself would give taking over a town a thumbs down and strip the clerics who do such a stupid thing of their spells for their lack of common sense, among other things.

Remember that unlike most LN deities, St. Cutbert only tolerates LG and LN clerics. He doesn't tolerate LE.

[AMFV]

Also don't forget that many of the CE or NE religions might employ this same sort of thing as a sort of ruse...

[Zweisteine]

Heironeous would step up like that, with the intention of protecting them, and doing exactly what they say they are doing. They wojld believe thy what they did was better for the people, and wouldn't do anything more tyrannical than enforcing the law a bit more than it had been. Thu would probaby be willing to listen to the people of they are unhappy, unless the people want something distinctly evil/anarchic.

Hector would be either overtly tyrannical, or planning a tyranny. They would say they were working for the good of the people, but actually be building up their power, after which the religion would install a dictatorship.

St. Cuthbert's religion would say that they were working for the good of the people, believe they were working for the greater good/law, and actually be creating an overbearing amount of Lawfulness (or maybe even lawfulness). This sounds like the one you want, unless the new government doesn't actually believe that it helping the people (besides helping them follow the right faith; any religion would believe that).

[Envyus]

It's iffy if St. Cuthbert himself tolerates this sort of thing.

If he does, then every other church of St. Cuthbert is suspect, because he could decide all towns are better ruled by his clerics.

If he does not, it's rather difficult to take control of a town without spells.

I personally am of the opinion St. Cuthbert himself would give taking over a town a thumbs down and strip the clerics who do such a stupid thing of their spells for their lack of common sense, among other things.

Remember that unlike most LN deities, St. Cutbert only tolerates LG and LN clerics. He doesn't tolerate LE.

He likely does not care and would let his clerics decide whats best. Taking over a town to defend while it's defenses are dead seems like something sensible.

[Aolbain]

If we keep to Greyhawk gods, Pholtus is the obvious answer.

[Raven777]

Why not a triumvirate of faiths? Have a last minute alliance led by one Cleric of Heironeous, one of St.Cuthbert and one of Zerus / Hextor. Only by allying their forces could they pull enough men together to defend the city. Have the Zerus / Hextor guy at least partially justified in enacting laws against non-humans and / or draconian "security measures", and the other two roped into begrudgingly going along. Constant paranoia and disagreements between the three orders should be at an all time high once the city is secured, but they need to endure each other's methods to keep whathever's threatening the town in check.

[Envyus]

Why not a triumvirate of faiths? Have a last minute alliance led by one Cleric of Heironeous, one of St.Cuthbert and one of Zerus / Hextor. Only by allying their forces could they pull enough men together to defend the city. Have the Zerus / Hextor guy at least partially justified in enacting laws against non-humans and / or draconian "security measures", and the other two roped into begrudgingly going along. Constant paranoia and disagreements between the three orders should be at an all time high once the city is secured, but they need to endure each other's methods to keep whathever's threatening the town in check.

Heironeous and Hextor won't work together they hate each other.

[AMFV]

Heironeous and Hextor won't work together they hate each other.

Sometimes people work together with somebody they hate if it's for a good enough reason. The churches might have another enemy that's bigger or more frightening. You can see the US-USSR alliance for an example of enemies working together, actually the USSR-UK alliance is even more that, since the UK was so staunchly anti-communist. In any case the point being that people that hate each other sometimes work together against a common threat.

[Big Fau]

St. Cuthbert could work there. If this were Eberron, it would have "Silver Flame" written all over it.

Yeah, Silver Flame, Blood of Vol, and the Undying Court all pulled this on a country-scale (the latter being an island continent, but whatever).

For Greyhawk, Cuthbert could pull this off but his dogma isn't quite the conquering type. Heironeous would fit the bill, as he is the patron of most Paladins outside of Pelor (according to WotC anyway), and it would be more of a "My god is protecting you from his brother's ways".

Although Hextor is evil, he allows LN Clerics and their form of "tyranny" would be less 1984 and more genuinely helpful, if bureaucratic and war-happy.

[Envyus]

Sometimes people work together with somebody they hate if it's for a good enough reason. The churches might have another enemy that's bigger or more frightening. You can see the US-USSR alliance for an example of enemies working together, actually the USSR-UK alliance is even more that, since the UK was so staunchly anti-communist. In any case the point being that people that hate each other sometimes work together against a common threat.

They are also brothers. They won't ever work together.

[Envyus]

For Greyhawk, Cuthbert could pull this off but his dogma isn't quite the conquering type.

They are not trying to conquer they are just taking over defense and leadership of the town and being overzealous about it.

[AMFV]

They are also brothers. They won't ever work together.

I've worked with my brother, sometimes even when we were fighting or disagreeing. If the threat was big enough to both of them, there's no reason why they might not agree to work together, and arguing that they wouldn't as some kind of hard and fast rule is a little ridiculous. I mean I could find similar cases where relatives (European Nobles) who hated each other also worked together in light of a bigger threat.

[Envyus]

I've worked with my brother, sometimes even when we were fighting or disagreeing. If the threat was big enough to both of them, there's no reason why they might not agree to work together, and arguing that they wouldn't as some kind of hard and fast rule is a little ridiculous. I mean I could find similar cases where relatives (European Nobles) who hated each other also worked together in light of a bigger threat.

Their relgions are pretty much the opposite of each other they hate each other. One of the main rules of both of their religions is to destroy the other one. They would also never think that another thing is a bigger threat then the other.

[Angelalex242]

I agree. There is NO canon threat big enough for Heironeus and Hextor to willingly work together. If Heironeus needed allies, Pelor, St. Cuthbert, and even Kord in a pinch would make the 'I need help' list a lot quicker then Hextor. Hell, he'd even call in the Racial Gods like Bahamut, Moradin, Correlon, Garl, and Yondalla before going to Hextor. Most things nasty enough to require a god to need to help (all of which can only be found in the Epic Level Handbook) probably threaten all the free peoples anyway.

Try to remember Heironeus himself is the Arch Paladin, the archetype Paladin. And ya know that Code? He's the living embodiment of it. Part of that code? "Does not associate with evil."

[hamishspence]

I agree. There is NO canon threat big enough for Heironeus and Hextor to willingly work together.

"Binders" maybe? The Order of Seropaenes was founded by members the clergies of St Cuthbert, Wee Jas, Heironeous- and the evil Vecna. And for a while, paladins of Heironeous and necromancers of Vecna worked side-by-side.

When the rest of the clergies found out, the higher-ups publicly banned the organization- but some continued to fund it in secret. Though the organization began to conceal its existence so well that the present day leaders of the Church of Heironeous are completely unaware that it ever existed (the Order still has agents of Heironeous in it).

According to Tome of Magic, Hextor and Heironeous weren't always archenemies. And when their servant stole their mother's armour, and started wreaking havoc on the mortal plane, they worked together to defeat that servant (Hextor was forced to steal his mother's bow and arrows to do so.)

After that fight, Hextor suggested they replace the armor and weapons, before their mother found out. And hide the body somewhere not even gods could reach (wherever it is that vestiges dwell).

Against his better judgement, but wanting to protect his half-brother. Heironeous agreed. And has regretted it ever since.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I agree. There is NO canon threat big enough for Heironeus and Hextor to willingly work together. If Heironeus needed allies, Pelor, St. Cuthbert, and even Kord in a pinch would make the 'I need help' list a lot quicker then Hextor. Hell, he'd even call in the Racial Gods like Bahamut, Moradin, Correlon, Garl, and Yondalla before going to Hextor. Most things nasty enough to require a god to need to help (all of which can only be found in the Epic Level Handbook) probably threaten all the free peoples anyway.

Try to remember Heironeus himself is the Arch Paladin, the archetype Paladin. And ya know that Code? He's the living embodiment of it. Part of that code? "Does not associate with evil."


"Binders" maybe? The Order of Seropaenes was founded by members the clergies of St Cuthbert, Wee Jas, Heironeous- and the evil Vecna. And for a while, paladins of Heironeous and necromancers of Vecna worked side-by-side.

When the rest of the clergies found out, the higher-ups publicly banned the organization- but some continued to fund it in secret. Though the organization began to conceal its existence so well that the present day leaders of the Church of Heironeous are completely unaware that it ever existed (the Order still has agents of Heironeous in it).

According to Tome of Magic, Hextor and Heironeous weren't always archenemies. And when their servant stole their mother's armour, and started wreaking havoc on the mortal plane, they worked together to defeat that servant (Hextor was forced to steal his mother's bow and arrows to do so.)

After that fight, Hextor suggested they replace the armor and weapons, before their mother found out. And hide the body somewhere not even gods could reach (wherever it is that vestiges dwell).

Against his better judgement, but wanting to protect his half-brother. Heironeous agreed. And has regretted it ever since.
+1

Also, the clause about associates for a paladin is -not- part of the code. It's a separate section of the class description that says either paladins are incapable of associating with evil (not will not, not may not, but can not, as in literally incapable) or says paladins can't attract cohorts, followers, or hirelings of a non-LG alignment.

[LordBiscuit]

To be honest it entirely depends on how much god's dabble in the affairs of motals, and largely the situation. In this case an entire town has lost it's defensive army, so multiple priesthoods of clerics would work together to impose marial law so that the city isn't lost until an more perniment garrison can be provided. This may take a generation or so depending on the size of the city and the immediate threat this event poses.

St Cuthberd would likely be the primary lawkeeper due to it's desire to maintain law and order, even if they don't have any desire to rule this city forever. The effects of it's strictness to maintain disapline in the population however could be the source of much conflict, as compared to standard rule a marial law under the god of law would be incredably strict and harsh. Breaking these laws would be met with a imperical, though techically fair responce.

However pretty much any priesthood could take interest in the defence of the city, just even then it would be a cases of civil unrest that would have to be tamed brutally as they are shorthanded. Afterall, evidently all gods exist so it's not a question of belief but rather how far the preisthood would go in maintaining the law, that could eventurally result in an effective takeover.

[EugeneVoid]

:smallfurious:PELOR THE BURNING HATE!