Some epic feats should be allowed in E6

[Mighty_Chicken]

What the title says.

Epic feats are powerful, but most of them aren't overpowered; they just break the rules a little. They let you do things that shouldn't happen, like having infinite attacks of opportunity or not taking any time to reload a crossbow.

Regardless of what the authors were thinking when they limited such feats to characters above 21th level, those are things I can see the most powerful heroes of heroic fantasy doing - not only "wuxia" or "super" heroes.

After reading the great What does each level mean? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319144) thread in this forum, I caught myself thinking that maybe the authors of 3.0 were thinking Aragorn and Legolas were 20+ level characters. An E6 character wouldn't be able to do many of the stunts they in the LotR movie, and I'm not talking of raw power demonstrations such as breaking a colossal beast's skull with an arrow to make the dwarf look silly, but shooting arrows close from armed enemies or tracking at full speed.

That's why IMHO Gnorman's E6 compendium works so well: because heroic (ECL 6-10) characters need dramatic and effective abilities like his capstones.


These are some epic feats (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Epic_Feats) that deserve to be ported to E6 (maybe only allowed after characters have 10 or 20 "epic" feats) pretty much as they are, maybe limiting the number of times they can be gained:

Armor Skin, Combat Archery, Damage Reduction, Dexterous Fortitude, Dexterous Will, Dire Charge, Epic Endurance, Epic Inspiration, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Exceptional Deflection, Extended Life Span, Great Smiting, Group Inspiration, Improved Aura of Courage, Improved Combat Casting, Improved Darkvision, Improved Low-Light Vision, Improved Sneak Attack, Instant Reload, Intuitive Trapfinding, Legendary Climber/Leaper/Rider, Keen Strike, Music of the Gods, Perfect Health, Ranged Inspiration, Rapid Inspiration, Reactive Countersong, Reflect Arrows, Shattering Strike

The following ones should have some tweaking to nerf their raw power, but keeping it faithful to their spirit:

Automatic [Metamagic] spell, Bane of Enemies, Chaotic Rage, Dragon Wild Shape, Epic Dodge, Epic Fortitude/Reflex/Will, Legendary Commander, Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus, Epic Speed, Epic Toughness, Familiar Spell, Fast Healing, Holy Strike, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Favored Enemy, Incite Rage, Inspire Excelence, Legendary Wrestler, Magical Beast Companion, Magical Beast Wild Shape, Polyglot, Positive Energy Aura, Righteous Strike, Sneak Attack of Opportunity, Storm of Throws, Superior Initiative, Swarm of Arrows, Tenacious Magic, Terrifying Rage, Overwhelming Critical, Uncanny Accuracy

Since those feats are better than most regular ones, maybe there should be a limit on how much of them you can gain (for example, only one in three).

Opinions?

[Mighty_Chicken]

Hey, don't make me bump this!

[Invader]

I think the point is that in an E6 game things are supposed to be a little more believable (albeit still with spell casting) so if you allow feats that "only break the game a little" it kind of defeats the purpose.

[Erik Vale]

E6 characters have the epic tag, which means they qualify for epic feats. At least, I think so.
The thing is, for many they don't reach the minimum skill/other requirements. Of course, that doesn't mean they can't pick up armor skin or great [stat].

[Mighty_Chicken]

I think the point is that in an E6 game things are supposed to be a little more believable (albeit still with spell casting) so if you allow feats that "only break the game a little" it kind of defeats the purpose.

I don't think it's really unbelievable, but of course it depends on what level of "believability" you're aiming at.

Is that unbelievable that ranged attacks do not provoke attacks of opportunity? Is it unbelievable that fighter is 15% instead of 5% better than most people with a weapon? These aren't unbelievable, they just show an exceptional amount of skill that is rare, but not unheard of.

Other things aren't believable in a realistic sense, but they have firm roots in Heroic Fantasy sphere, not in Wuxia or Super Hero themes (things that E6 tries to avoid). For example, Extended Life Span, Improved Combat Reflexes, etc.

"Breaking the game a little" is pretty much what the great legends of real life did. With Epic Feats in E6, you slightly break the rules of a fantasy setting.



The thing is, for many they don't reach the minimum skill/other requirements. Of course, that doesn't mean they can't pick up armor skin or great [stat].

Well, just as the [Epic] requirement originally meant level 21 or more, I think the BAB and skill rank requirements should be reduced too, probably to +8 BAB and 11 ranks.

[Mighty_Chicken]

Also, if only a limited number of Epic Feats is allowed, two characters of the same class can be very different. For example, if so far the DM allowed just two Epic Feats, a fighter may have Armor Skin and Damage Reduction while the other one has Epic Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Specialization (and I'm just sticking to the less polemic feats). This way, one of them is a survivor warrior a la Guts and the other one is a blademaster.

[sideswipe]

I partially agree with you in a way.

I am not referring to E6 but to normal D&D.

It is obvious that fighting classes are inferior to casters in most ways. so letting them have access to epic feats earlier is a good idea (at least non magic related ones).

For example, the biggest feat in the weapon specialisation feat chain is that you can take a 10 on an attack roll once per round. gain some disarm advantages, get a single +5 to a secondary attack and attack properly in a grapple.

since fighters don't get pounce without multi classing and you need 18 levels in fighter to take this.

this is against taking 9th level spells like wish, miracle, true res and mind rape that a caster could get.

this is not a fair trade off.

so allowing fighting classes to take epic level combat based feats at level,say 15+ could help close the gap between combat classes and casters a little.

though giving casters of any level below 20 epic level feats is giving them almost infinite power even earlier. so this is a horrible idea.

[Mighty_Chicken]

though giving casters of any level below 20 epic level feats is giving them almost infinite power even earlier. so this is a horrible idea.

I agree normal D&D could have melee epic feats earlier.

About magic epic feats, though, I think most of them are fine as long as the number of feats is restricted, and the caster is limited to 0, 1st and 2nd level spells, even in E6/E10.

[Invader]

so allowing fighting classes to make epic level combat feats at level,say 15+ could help close the gap between combat classes and casters since ttle.



When I first read this I was going to immediately disagree in so much as any amount of balance would be so negligible it wouldn't matter but it's been quite a while since I've looked at epic feats so instead I'll ask what ones would help bring fighters up more in line casters?

[sideswipe]

When I first read this I was going to immediately disagree in so much as any amount of balance would be so negligible it wouldn't matter but it's been quite a while since I've looked at epic feats so instead I'll ask what ones would help bring fighters up more in line casters?

without combing the book. instead of a minor level 15 feat for a fighter/ ranger/ rogue they get for example devistating critical, so crits are now save or die with your favourate weapon of choice (there is a varient one for rangers which is all favoured enemies save or die on a crit with any weapon.

combat archery allows you to not provoke when using a bow. very nice for ranged builds as they are underpowered, also improved manyshot.
lingering damage means all sneak attack damage you do is repeated a round later even if you don't attack them. essentially doubling the damage TWF rogues do as well as perfect TWF, sneak attack of opporitunity so every attack of opperitunity you get you can add sneak attack to as if they were flat footed.
And there are a tonne of rage feats.
And fast healing 3. never a bad thing to have.

remember i mentioned lessening the prerequisites for these. so they can be taken at earlier levels.

these are not game breaking but gaining these abilities earlier would make builds, that otherwise would be really upstaged by even a mid op caster build, playable and the player feels like they really are part of the party. they could actually outshine in pure damage terms and they areas they are meant to specialise in.

otherwise we would just have a party of a cleric, a druid, a wizard and a chameleon factotum for the rest.