Improved Natural Attack Clarifications

[GhengisConrad]

Lets say I have a base attack bonus of +6, feral claws, a bite attack, and a gore attack. I also have the feat 'Improved Natural Attack', which reads:

Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms. The damage of this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature's size had increased by one category.

I would deal roll for 2d6 at a +6 BAB, twice, and then do my bite and gore at +1 BAB each, right?

I guess what I am trying to clarify, is, would the feat improve both my claw attacks?

And, am I correct that both 'primary' claw attack*S* receive the full BAB?

If I had a BAB of +11 I would be better off using one of my claws as an 'armed' attack for +11/+5/+1 and then dealing another claw at +5 and then gore at +5 and bite at +5 right? And, of course, with the feat, each claw (both the +11/+5/+1 'armed' attack, as well at the +5 secondary 'natural' attack) would be at the 2d6 action, right?

[Morphie]

The feat specifies an attack form. The claws, though you have two, count as one attack form, so I would say the increased damage applies to both attacks made with them.

Edit: The secondary attacks are made at a -5 penalty, unless you have the Multiattack feat, so your gore and bite attacks are both at +1.

Edit 2: IIRC, Iterative attacks do not apply to natural weapons, you just use the ones you have and that's it.

Edit 3 (gosh, I should be sleeping): I think your math is off a bit: with a base attack of 11, you would have 11/6/1 :smallwink:

[danzibr]

Yes, it increases the damage for all your claws (or at least all of that type of claw). For supporting evidence, look at the tiger stat block.

If you use your claws as your primary weapons, it would go claw 1 +6/Claw 2 +6/bite +1/gore +1.

You can't (to my knowledge) use a claw an armed attack. There is almost no way to get iteratives with natural weapons. There's a crappy feat in Draconomicon, but... pretty much no way.

[TuggyNE]

All answers so far are correct; if you can attack with a weapon (including unarmed strikes, because REASONS), then you'd intermix natural attacks into your 11/6/1 iteratives as appropriate, in this case either before or after your second iterative attack; all your natural attacks, including claws if the weapon doesn't make you stop using them, would be at the same bonus of your BAB + Str + size -5, not counting Weapon Focus or the like.

[GhengisConrad]

All answers so far are correct; if you can attack with a weapon (including unarmed strikes, because REASONS), then you'd intermix natural attacks into your 11/6/1 iteratives as appropriate, in this case either before or after your second iterative attack; all your natural attacks, including claws if the weapon doesn't make you stop using them, would be at the same bonus of your BAB + Str + size -5, not counting Weapon Focus or the like.

because REASONS?

[GhengisConrad]

I guess I'm not sure how you can't 'use' one of your two claws as your 'main hand weapon'...? Are y'all saying this can be done only if you have improved unarmed strike? or am I misunderstanding?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Natural weapons cannot be used to make iterative attacks, even if you count it as your primary weapon. The exception to this is if you have the feats Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike from the Draconomicon. If you get two claw attacks, you can only ever make two claw attacks regardless of how high your BAB is. Effects that give you extra attacks such as Haste can still give you another claw attack, but you can't get more from a high BAB.

Unarmed strikes and attacks with manufactured weapons don't suffer this limitation. Since you can make an unarmed strike with any part of your body, you can full attack with unarmed strikes with your full number of iterative attacks, then make two secondary claw attacks at -5 (or -2 with Multiattack) and adding 1/2 Str to damage, then one secondary bite and one secondary gore also at -5 (or -2 with Multiattack) and also adding 1/2 Str to damage.

[Fax Celestis]

I guess I'm not sure how you can't 'use' one of your two claws as your 'main hand weapon'...? Are y'all saying this can be done only if you have improved unarmed strike? or am I misunderstanding?

Natural attacks never get iterative attacks (barring Rapidstrike shenanigans, but that is an incredibly poorly worded feat so I'm not even sure what it is intended to do).

If you have two claws and a bite, with BAB +11, your two claws attack at +11, and your bite at +6. If you take Multiattack (like every natural attacker worth his salt does), your claws would strike at +11, and your bite would strike at +9.

In addition, if you make any manufactured/unarmed attacks at all, all your natural attacks become secondaries and strike at +6 (or +9), if we continue the example above. Particularly in the case of your claws, this might be a problem, as if you use a limb to make a manufactured/unarmed attack, you cannot use it to make a natural weapon attack.

[TypoNinja]

Natural attacks never get iterative attacks (barring Rapidstrike shenanigans, but that is an incredibly poorly worded feat so I'm not even sure what it is intended to do).


While the feat is somewhat poorly worded, I always assumed it mean proper iteratives, not one at -5 and the rest at -10.

Though somebody did have a serious brain fart when they let it grant four extra attacks instead of three.