ShadowLord Alternatives

[GhengisConrad]

Okay, so, the way I build is to take an idea, and break it apart to see if there is a new build which delivers similar effects plus more for similar costs or better and just kinda... see how I feel about it.

Almost every build I've ever built has been a kind of Teflammor Shadowlord kinda build.

Why?:

ShadowBlur: I like gaining 'miss' chances against myself. Each roll for a miss chance is like cookies in my book.

ShadowPounce: I like the idea of instantly, and without having to like, get there, just being all up in someone's grill and attacking them

Hiding: I like hiding. I just really like it. The hole idea of 'ha ha, you can't see me if my hide check is higher than your spot check' is delicious cherry flavored licorice to me.

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I could be sold against this. And I would like to be.

Currently, every one of my builds suffers from the need to gain dim.door as a spell or spellike, the need for 2d6 sneaks... and well, everything that ShadowLord needs.

Don't even try that other class with the pounces, its class powers are I hate (sic).

but what I lovems is the idea of a guy just weaving and bobbing into and out of the shaddows to deliver attacks... but then I see the heart shakra of the totemist of blink shirt and I think... maybe there is a better way....

is there? I like the idea of a character that just walks up to and into battle, with no fear, with high armor class, and just *pop*s into the flanking zone and f***s up some guys s***.

But I am tired of hamstringing my melee (feral half-minotaur anthro bat) builds with Trapsmith or Warlock. I looong to delve into monk and swordsage for their delicious cake powers, rather than the ways they can get me to the T.Lord.


Sell me out. Sell me out of this hell. I like being all dark and shadowy and stuff, but all my builds are getting monochrome and boringsome.... Sell me a way to be... unexpected.. without shadowpounce.

[Xervous]

swordsage 5 gets you assassin's stance: 2d6 sneak attack hello.

eat the 1 LA for the template...

and you qualify!

[Darrin]

Shadow Pounce comes in very late in this build (18th level), but that's due mostly to the cap on cross-class skill ranks (it's very difficult to add Ride or Move Silently as class skills), but once you get it, you can convert all your Turn Undead attempts into Shadow Pounce full attacks:

Race: Half-Drow (must be Crinti or have official sanction of Dambrath nobility)
1) Crusader 1. Feat: Mounted Combat. Knowledge: Religion 4, Ride 4, Hide 2, Move Silently 2.
2) Crusader 2. Intimidate 3, Knowledge: Religion 5.
3) Crusader 3. Feat: Stealthy. Intimidate 4, Knowledge: Religion 6, Hide 3.
4) Crusader 4. Ride 6, Move Silently 3.
5) Cloistered Cleric 1. Knowledge: Religion 8, Hide 4, Move Silently 4.
6) Ruby Knight Vindicator 1. Feat: Extra Turning. Ride 8, Handle Animal 1. Thicket of Blades.
7) Ruby Knight Vindicator 2. Hide 5, Move Silently 5. Shadow Jaunt.
8) Ruby Knight Vindicator 3. Handle Animal 3.
9) Ruby Knight Vindicator 4. Feat: Extra Turning. Hide 6, Move Silently 6.
10) Ruby Knight Vindicator 5. Handle Animal 4.
11) Ruby Knight Vindicator 6. Hide 7, Move Silently 7. Shadow Stride.
12) Ruby Knight Vindicator 7. Feat: Martial Stance -> Aura of Chaos.
13) Ruby Knight Vindicator 8. Hide 8, Move Silently 8.
14) Crinti Shadow Marauder 1.
15) Crinti Shadow Marauder 2. Feat: Martial Study -> Shadow Blink.
16) Crinti Shadow Marauder 3.
17) Crinti Shadow Marauder 4.
18) Crinti Shadow Marauder 5. Feat: Martial Stance -> Immortal Fortitude. Shadow Pounce.
19) Ruby Knight Vindicator 9.
20) Ruby Knight Vindicator 10. Strike of Rightious Vitality.

Start your round with a standard action Shadow Jaunt + full attack, move action Shadow Stride + full attack, then swift action Shadow Blink + full attack. Then burn a TU with Divine Impetus to get a second swift action, burn another TU and swift action for Divine Recovery, then burn TU again with Divine Impetus for a third swift action. Shadow Blink + full attack. Rinse and repeat, add Nightsticks (+4 TUs each) until your DM strangles you with your own intestines.

[GhengisConrad]

Start your round with a standard action Shadow Jaunt + full attack, move action Shadow Stride + full attack, then swift action Shadow Blink + full attack. Then burn a TU with Divine Impetus to get a second swift action, burn another TU and swift action for Divine Recovery, then burn TU again with Divine Impetus for a third swift action. Shadow Blink + full attack. Rinse and repeat, add Nightsticks (+4 TUs each) until your DM strangles you with your own intestines.

You are thinking that some how you slice your 'full attack' that pounce grants, into moves and standard actions, and then end up keeping the remainders?

RAW is:
"he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation"


this seems different from
"he may execute a full attack action upon completion of the teleportation"

am I missing something? Is this controversial at all?

it goes on to say:
" launch a melee attack at the intended target with whatever weapon he has in hand at the beginning of his action"

seems pretty clear they mean melee attack, and its bound up, you can't even switch weapons, let alone do more teleportations as part of the attack.....

again, I have been wrong in the past, I'll be wrong in the future, I could be wrong here... but something don't smell right in Denmark here....

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also, if I wasn't clear in the OP, I'm trying NOT to have a ShadowPounce build! GYAH! I am full of want.

[Snowbluff]

Like Darrin said, you could just use Crinti Shadow Marauder instead. The prerequisites are easier. Also, you can get around the SLA requirements of Shadow Lord with the template.

Duskblade13/Totemist2(Blink Shirt)/Shadow Marauder. Not necessarily in that order.

Twin spell, with Arcane Thesis in Stand, Dimension Hop, and/or your favorite touch spell. Add Invisible Spell and Practical MM for further reduction. Teleport as a Stands with D Hop, teleport (upright) twice as immediate, and then finish off with a Blink Shirt D Door. Alternatively, use a Full Channel, then use Twin Stand, or close with a quickened D Hop if you don't want shadow pounce.

[Darrin]

You are thinking that some how you slice your 'full attack' that pounce grants, into moves and standard actions, and then end up keeping the remainders?


Standard, move, swift action are just how to activate the [teleport] effect. It doesn't matter how you teleport, once you do you get a full attack via Shadow Pounce.



am I missing something? Is this controversial at all?


I have no idea. We are probably using different interpretations of how Shadow Pounce works. But most of what I know about Shadow Pounce comes from "TO" builds, where "TO" means Theoretical Optimization. As in, you shouldn't try this in a real game with real DM/players unless you want to get books thrown at you.



it goes on to say:
" launch a melee attack at the intended target with whatever weapon he has in hand at the beginning of his action"

seems pretty clear they mean melee attack, and its bound up, you can't even switch weapons, let alone do more teleportations as part of the attack.....


How is a full attack not a melee attack action?

However, yes, you do have a valid point if you're using dimension door: Shadow Pounce may be an exception to it (because it doesn't work otherwise), but it prevents any other actions after you use it, including swift actions. Divine Impetus/Divine Recovery might or might not be possible (most likely not, with any sane DM). Blink Shirt has the same restriction.

But... Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink do not. They don't make any reference to dimension door, so you can still act after you use them. So you can use Shadow Jaunt (standard action), Shadow Stride (move action), and Shadow Blink (swift action) all in the same round. Combine with Shadow Pounce, and that's three full attacks. Add RKV + Divine Recovery + Divine Impetus, and you can convert your TUs into a massive alpha strike of Shadow Blink + full attack.

I'm not saying you *SHOULD* do this. But it's possible (with a cooperative DM).



also, if I wasn't clear in the OP, I'm trying NOT to have a ShadowPounce build! GYAH! I am full of want.

Sorry, I missed that. My understanding was, the only reason to go into Telflammar Shadowlord was to get Shadow Pounce, as the PrC kinda stinks for everything else: horrible useless prereqs, rigid setting-specific fluff, medium BAB, extremely limited spellcasting. The Shadow Discorporation thing sounds very cool but could be annoying in actual practice. Death Attack is too hard to use effectively, and against anything that will easily fail the Fort save you're probably better off just killing the normal way.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

The trouble with Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink is, they technically don't meet the requirements to get you in to the class. Of course, if you get in otherwise, they're fantastic. And Ex:, which means they work in anti/dead magic, which I've always thought was a fun little trick ("Oh no, they locked me in the anti-magic cells in the dungeon." *Shadow Jaunt* "Ok, problem solved.").

If you want to do a "teleport in, full attack, teleport out" type build, without Shadow Pounce, then you'll probably want to check out the Chrono Legionnaire (http://community.wizards.com/comment/20300291#comment-20300291).