Orcish Half-Dragon is OP?

[MobiusHero]

I have recently tried to make an Orcish Half-Dragon character (thus the title) and my bro has claimed that he is really op. I disagree I find the character overall to be quite on par with the rest of the group in most regards. what do you more seasoned D&Ders think?

Note: this character is unfinished.
http://s23.postimg.org/lu0jn2u23/Daeryth_Orgesh.png


Edit: My rping group are all level 5 with at least 11000xp.

[SowZ]

I have recently tried to make an Orcish Half-Dragon character (thus the title) and my bro has claimed that he is really op. I disagree I find the character overall to be quite on par with the rest of the group in most regards. what do you more seasoned D&Ders think?

Note: this character is unfinished.
http://s23.postimg.org/lu0jn2u23/Daeryth_Orgesh.png


Edit: My rping group are all level 5 with at least 11000xp.

You took both Endurance and Die Hard and are a Fighter. This character is very good for casual play and low-op groups, not sure what the issue is. It certainly wouldn't fly at high op or even mid op tables. Well, he would fly, but you know what I mean.

This seems the kind of character WotC expected. He has a couple cool tricks, he can fly and is tough to kill and I'm sure he deals good melee damage. But his AC is mediocre and low level means low saves/low BAB. You've sacrificed class abilities and HP and feats and ability boosts and attack accuracy and iterative attacks for flight, high stats, and a good breath weapon. It's not a bad character, but not a trade I would make.

Tell your brother you gave up more than enough to equal what you got.

I am confused how you got 60HP though. Are you just counting the -10 HP as standard HP because you may as well from Die Hard? Even then, how did you get fifty? Even with max HD rolls, I count 28.

[SaintNick]

I think you are mis-understanding how Level Adjustments work. You are actually a level 2 character with the Half-Dragon template, not a level 5 character. You should only have 2d10+8 hit points, a max skill level of 5/2.5, and only 20 skill points total.

[MobiusHero]

Well I havent chosen armor or equipment yet and any final touches haven't been finalized so some things could change. For the HP my DM says first die is maxed the rest are rolled normally, I was allowed to count the LA health levels as the Orcish D8 plus the Half dragon bonus as 1d10 per level, fighter gives 1d10 per level I rolled two nines a ten and a three plus my con bonus each time for a total of 60.

So basically we were houseruling it so my health wouldn't suck, We are considering my level as being 5 and the Racial HD bonus that Half-Dragon lists as applying to the Orcish one that the MM1 lists as 1d8+ 1 category to 1d10.

So basically 2d10+8 for Fighter and 3d10+12 for Orcish/Half-Dragon.
Same thing for Skills... technically I have like 38 skill points by our math...

[TuggyNE]

Well I havent chosen armor or equipment yet and any final touches haven't been finalized so some things could change. For the HP my DM says first die is maxed the rest are rolled normally, I was allowed to count the LA health levels as the Orcish D8 plus the Half dragon bonus as 1d10 per level, fighter gives 1d10 per level I rolled two nines a ten and a three plus my con bonus each time for a total of 60.

It's still not OP, but if you houserule LA as hit dice then you have to expect some sort of increase in power level. That's just the nature of houserules.

[MobiusHero]

Yeah my brother was arguing that I could hypothetically pick up some big ole sword or pole any other vaguely dangerous item of exceptional rotundity, and get crazy high damage due to the 10 modifier on strength. and while true i am playing the character as someone who prefers to go au naturale, and claw and bite his way to victory... he didn't find that particularly comforting...


I still highly welcome any further input! ^_^

[SowZ]

Yeah my brother was arguing that I could hypothetically pick up some big ole sword or pole any other vaguely dangerous item of exceptional rotundity, and get crazy high damage due to the 10 modifier on strength. and while true i am playing the character as someone who prefers to go au naturale, and claw and bite his way to victory... he didn't find that particularly comforting...


I still highly welcome any further input! ^_^

Even with a weapon, it's not too damaging. You still have lower BAB, so you've traded some accuracy for more damage. Someone with 5 BAB, for example, could Power Attack down to 2 BAB and have +6 damage right there. (Of course, they would have lower strength in the first place, but still.) Anyway, you've traded a lot of stuff for a good Strength score. Consider this. You could have been a level 5 Orc Barbarian. In a rage, your Strength would be only a little lower and your HP would be quite a bit higher. And you'd have more BAB. You wouldn't have a breath weapon or fly, but that's what you traded off.

It looks like you built you're character thematically and with cool abilities in mind, (like flight,) but I don't see any attempt at munchkinery or over-optimization. If this character is OP, it isn't because of how he is built, but because the DM thinks half-dragon is OP. (Which I would strongly say it isn't.)

Anyway, it is a reasonable house rule to basically turn LA into a type of RHD that gives no BAB, but raises SP cap and gives HP. LA is usually a bad trade off in the first place.

[Aasimar]

The houserule makes him a bit more OP. And yes, he is really quite powerful for a 'normal' d&d game.

Personally, I happen to think that the strength bonus for being an orc and the strength bonus for being a half-dragon should both be considered racial bonuses and thus not stack anymore than any two bonuses with the same name, but that's just me.

I think the idea to not use weapons however easily cancels whatever OPness he has...

Maybe if we knew what other characters the game has?

[SowZ]

The houserule makes him a bit more OP. And yes, he is really quite powerful for a 'normal' d&d game.

Personally, I happen to think that the strength bonus for being an orc and the strength bonus for being a half-dragon should both be considered racial bonuses and thus not stack anymore than any two bonuses with the same name, but that's just me.

I think the idea to not use weapons however easily cancels whatever OPness he has...

Maybe if we knew what other characters the game has?

If that's the case, you basically can't be an Orc Half-Dragon. The racial bonuses should stack because they both sacrifice different things, and Orcs get a Strength bonus in lieu of other real racial features.

It's not really a balance problem that needs fixing. An Orc/Half Dragon Fighter 1 isn't any better than an Orc Fighter 2/Barbarian 2.

[Chronos]

I don't get it. Your DM houserules a template to be significantly better, but then complains about that template that it's overpowered? If it's overpowered, it's because he made it so in the first place. Why can't he scale back the benefits of the LA a bit, until it's something he considers balanced?

[Pan151]

There's no real issue about whether the 2 strength bonuses stack of not, because one of them in not racial - Half-Dragon is not a race, it's an inherited template, ie it is simply the sum of the differences between 2 races (Orcs and Half-Dragon Orcs in this case), not something in and of itself. It is simply written by itself so that we don't have to waste however many pages detailing every single half-dragon race there is out there.

[DeusMortuusEst]

I don't get it. Your DM houserules a template to be significantly better, but then complains about that template that it's overpowered? If it's overpowered, it's because he made it so in the first place. Why can't he scale back the benefits of the LA a bit, until it's something he considers balanced?

I don't think that the OP stated anywhere that the DM and his brother is the same person, but I might be wrong.

[BWR]

big ole sword or pole any other vaguely dangerous item of exceptional rotundity,

This word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Rotund: round, full-bodied, plump.

[DeusMortuusEst]

This word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Rotund: round, full-bodied, plump.

Or perhaps he was talking about a weapon like this:

http://www.booki.cc/book-of-dreams/zombies/static/fat-man-nuke.jpg

Though, in that case I don't think that the Half-dragon part matters much any longer. :smalltongue:

[Aasimar]

There's no real issue about whether the 2 strength bonuses stack of not, because one of them in not racial - Half-Dragon is not a race, it's an inherited template, ie it is simply the sum of the differences between 2 races (Orcs and Half-Dragon Orcs in this case), not something in and of itself. It is simply written by itself so that we don't have to waste however many pages detailing every single half-dragon race there is out there.

I know there isn't, I was saying that I felt that there should be.

This example isn't the most outrageous, but excessive template stacking gets on my nerves.

[SowZ]

I know there isn't, I was saying that I felt that there should be.

This example isn't the most outrageous, but excessive template stacking gets on my nerves.

The solution, then, is to limit how many templates one character can have. Saying that a half-dragon Orc has the same strength as a half-dragon half long of elf us kind of silly, especially since it makes the Orc objectively worse since his stat boost is gone but the penalties remain. A half dragon Orc isn't anything that needs fixing, it's still weaker than a half dragon human.

One of the real problems with excessive templating is LA 0 templates and a few under LA templates. But I can't think of any time racial bonus stacking is the problem. It doesn't fix the issue, since people will just stack their templates on stat neutral humans and be even stronger for it.

How would this be for a house rule if you hate over templating. "Every template after the first costs plus one LA."

[Aasimar]

Yeah, thing is I don't want to say that a half dragon sorcerer absolutely cannot become a lich either (an incredibly silly combination to be sure, fit only for NPCs) or stuff like that.

[Chronos]

Over-templating is generally its own punishment. It often appeals to munchkins, but then they get one-shot from someone sneezing on them because they have only three HD in a level 18 game, or whatever. And besides that, there's no way to argue that applying a single template constitutes "over-templating".

[SowZ]

Yeah, thing is I don't want to say that a half dragon sorcerer absolutely cannot become a lich either (an incredibly silly combination to be sure, fit only for NPCs) or stuff like that.

There's the LA house rule I edited into my post above. Otherwise, you could limit templating at char gen only.


Over-templating is generally its own punishment. It often appeals to munchkins, but then they get one-shot from someone sneezing on them because they have only three HD in a level 18 game, or whatever. And besides that, there's no way to argue that applying a single template constitutes "over-templating".

Lots of templates are LA 0. I love me an 'Arctic Magic-Blooded Dragonborn.'

[Marnath]

Yeah, thing is I don't want to say that a half dragon sorcerer absolutely cannot become a lich either (an incredibly silly combination to be sure, fit only for NPCs) or stuff like that.

A Half-Dragon sorcerer cannot become a lich, but it isn't the LA that stops them. You have to be of the humanoid type to become a lich. Draco-lich is still an option but it works differently.

[Broken Crown]

Based on my own experiences building and playing half-dragons, they seem to work out to be roughly comparable in ability to non-templated melee characters. Their biggest weakness is at low levels due to how few hit points they get. Since your DM has house-ruled that weakness away, it makes your character a bit more powerful, but it shouldn't have that much effect beyond actually keeping you alive; having more hit points isn't really game-breaking.

Once the group levels up a bit, class abilities (especially spells) are going to become more powerful relative to your half-dragon abilities, so things should even out on their own.

I'm a bit curious: What kind of dragon is he? Radiant dragon? Clever to use the "immunity to light and blindness" to nullify the orc's light sensitivity.

[Zweisteine]

That character isn't so bad. His hit points are kind of high, but if your DM okayed it, don't complain.

You could make this character a bit OP for a fighter, but of you Roleplay that you don't like having weapons, you should be able to stay away from overdoing it with a Greatsword. (until the DM rolls random treasure: +5 Flaming Vorpal Orc-only greatsword)

You should note on your character sheet what kind of half-dragon you are (what color). It might be important later.

My (untested) houserule to keep characters at lower levels with medium-sized LAs not frail is to give each point of LA a d4 hit die; roll and add Con as normal.

[SaintNick]

I am curious to know what dragon type gets you a 180ft 4d8 light-based breath weapon.

[Zman]

Well, the way LA was ruled(houseruled actually) does give an unfair advantage to the Half Dragon. If LA was done properly, it would be an under-powered character.

Your bite is dealing a d6+15 damage, and your claws a d4 +5.

I'm suspecting you are in a Low/Mid Optimization group and this could seem very powerful. On different tables, its not a Tier 1 Caster so its terrible.

Edit: The way I run LA in my overhaul is to assign a 15% xp penalty for each LA. So, you would level normally with a 45% experience penalty. Would keep the power levels much more balanced and so far it has been working quite well. It works best with experience from Unearthed Arcana.

[Andezzar]

I love me an 'Arctic Magic-Blooded Dragonborn.'I know Dragonborn, but where can I find the Arctic and the Magic-Blooded template?


Your bite is dealing a d6+15 damage, and your claws a d4 +5.d6+10 actually. you only get 1.5*STR on your primary natural attack if that is the only natural attack you have.

Oh and it would be "worse" if the character had two levels of Spirtual Lion Totem Barbarian with Whirling Frenzy instead of Rage. Moving (even with the restriction from a charge) and a Full Attack is nice.

Your house rule makes the Flight from improved dragon wings available much earlier than normal. A character with that feat can only fly once he has 6HD. So in your case that would normally be ECL 9 not 6.

[MobiusHero]

The main issue I am seeing from you guys (if any) is the potentially high health.
As compared to everyone else in the game it is actually good, but not best.

...Maybe if we knew what other characters the game has?
We have an Illumian Mage/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus thing who just LOOOVES SEETHING FREAKING EYE BANE! and DANCE OF RUIN!
A Dwarven Fighter who has68HP and dual wields Dwarven Waraxes . (He started off trying a Human Monk and hated it immediately)
A Warforged Paladin who has 69HP and 16 Str. who weilds a +2 Large Longsword and a Heavy Steel Shield, courtesy of Monkeys grip. AC of 20
A Lesser Asimar Druid, who has been a lot more fun than his previous theif, and whos stats i cant really remember right off hand...
there have been some others in this game also but they have been mostly one off characters


I am curious to know what dragon type gets you a 180ft 4d8 light-based breath weapon.
That is the effect of the Searing Light spell from PHB as cast by a level 8 caster, per the Half-Radiant/Prismatic Dragon rules :smallbiggrin:

[Andezzar]

A Dwarven Fighter who has68HP and dual wields Dwarven Waraxes . (He started off trying a Human Monk and hated it immediately)
A Warforged Paladin who has 69HP and 16 Str. who weilds a +2 Large Longsword and a Heavy Steel Shield, courtesy of Monkeys grip. AC of 20Better help those two instead of crying about the Half-dragon.

Make the warforged a cleric and go into prestige paladin if he wants the class features and flavor of a paladin. Monkey grip is a very poor choice. If someone needs to compensate with an oversized weapon there are the strongarm bracers, if desired they could even be made into warforged components.

Not sure about the dwarf. What is he trying to achieve? Dual-wielding one-handed weapons is not a good idea, especially on a fighter who does not get lots of extra damage per attack.


We have an Illumian Mage/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus thing who just LOOOVES SEETHING FREAKING EYE BANE! and DANCE OF RUIN!Just curious, are the player and the DM aware that seething Eyebane deals 1d6 CON damage to the caster as well at the end of the duration, and that it takes one full round to cast Dance of Ruin? There should be plenty of time to shut down the sorcerer.

One more question for the Orc: How did you come up with the stats? Thats 44 point buy, or you would have had to roll 18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10.

[MobiusHero]

Lol See what I'm saying? Everyone is a believable level of sucky! :smallbiggrin:
The Dwarf has two weapon fighting and other buff stuff to make him effective with the double axes thing.
But as you well know by this point, I am quite new to this system and don't know a lot of its strong (and weak) points, and neither do the other players. So i suppose when I made a character that was somewhat competent everyone freaked out!:smallbiggrin:

The Paladin focuses on Protecting the Caster who is his little buddy... although he does get a stern talking too and plenty of encouragement! (http://youtu.be/pVORGr2fDk8?t=5m12s) when he uses those dark powers!

[Karnith]

I know Dragonborn, but where can I find the Arctic and the Magic-Blooded template?
The Arctic racial variant (well, the good one, anyway) is in Dragon #306. Magic-blooded is another racial variant in that same issue.

[SaintNick]

That is the effect of the Searing Light spell from PHB as cast by a level 8 caster, per the Half-Radiant/Prismatic Dragon rules :smallbiggrin:

Okay, found the excerpt in Races of the Dragon though it says its only 60 feet. What are you using to extend the range?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Basically, you're DM has made a houserule that makes grabbing templates a no-brainer for melee you will outshine pretty much any non templated melee with that character, but your brother should be taking issue with the houserule rather than one character.