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rockdeworld
2013-12-29, 04:19 AM
A.K.A. Why a symbiotic creature is stronger than a tauric one.

Merry Christmas, everyone!

Although the 100^10 optimization challenge is old (and beaten), I've been wanting to put together my own build for it without building on the ones already done. I present my own entry, not just for the 10^100 challenge, but even for an even tougher 144^12 challenge, which includes two bonus goals (written below).

Arthur, the perfectly ordinary man
...with a dragon symbiote
Symbiotic (host) Human Commoner 1 with (guest) Greenbound (Return to Nature x6) Advanced (NI times) Half-Troll Lernaean Multiheaded Half-Dragon (Gold) Half-Dragon (Copper) Force Dragon
(templates applied from right to left)

Size/Type: Medium Aberration (Augmented Giant)
Hit Dice: 1d8-1 (3 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: NI (-1 Dex, +NI Deflection)
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-1
Full Attack: -1 Unarmed Strike (1d3-1) and -6 30 Bites (1d4-1) and -6 2 Claws* (1d3-1) and -6 Slam* (1d3-1)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Rend 2d2, 30x 15 ft. cones of Force (NId12, DC 10+HD/2+Con), 30x 60 ft. cones of fire (6d8, DC 10+HD/2+Con, 1/day), 30x 60 ft. lines of acid (6d8, DC 10+HD/2+Con, 1/day), Frightful Presence (DC NI), Spells (CL NI), Spell-like Abilities (DC NI), Empower spell-like ability, Maximize spell-like ability
Special Qualities: Detach (Ex), DR 25/epic, DR 10/magic and slashing, SR NI, Blindsense 60 ft., Keen Senses, Deflecting Force, Displacement, Invisibility, Fast Healing 5, Scent, Grapple Bonus, Cold Resistance 10, Tremorsense 60 ft., Electricity Resistance 10, Immunities: sleep, paralysis, Force (see Force Dragon entry), acid damage, fire damage, attacks (see Lernaean entry)
Saves: Fort +NI, Ref +NI, Will +NI
Abilities**: Str 8/Dex 8/Con 8/Int NI/Wis NI/Cha NI
Skills: All +NI
Feats: All*** as bonus feats
Environment: West Country
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: NI
Treasure: Double Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +1
*0 ft. reach, so usable only when grappling
**Base 8's with racial modifiers
***Except those the dragon could not qualify for

Combat
Spells: All of them. NI spell slots per day. Casts as a sorcerer with CL NI and saving throw DC NI.
Spell-Like Abilities: CL NI: 3/day—forcecage, maze, resilient sphere, telekinetic sphere, wall of force
CL 1: At will—entangle, pass without trace, speak with plants; 1/day—wall of thorns
Now for the challenge:
1) 144 AC
Deflecting Force provides NI AC

2) +144 to hit
---- 2a. Capable of doing this at least once a round
---- 2b. Waived for casters who can produce save DCs of 144+
---- 2c. Waived for a maximum of 3 rounds during the challenge whilst buffing.
NI Cha and sorcerer casting provides NI DCs.

3) Deals 144 damage average per round
---- 3a. This damage can be melee, at range, or created by spells/effects.
The Force Dragon's breath weapon deals NId12 damage.

4) +144 bonus to a selected skill check
---- 4a. This bonus must be applicable to any and every subtype of your selected skill check.
NI Cha provides +NI to Diplomacy.

5) 144 ft movement speed
---- 5a. Must exercise this movement twice in the challenge and still maintain stats
Cast Fly during the buff rounds, lasts NI minutes.
Base fly Speed 60'
+10 ft. untyped (Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment (Celerity))
+10 ft. insight (Speed of Thought feat)
+10 ft. untyped (Lord of the Sky, cast during buff rounds, lasts NI minutes)
+30 ft. untyped (Arial Alacrity, cast during buff rounds, lasts NI minutes)
+30 ft. enhancement (Haste, cast during buff rounds, lasts NI rounds)
Total: 150' fly speed

6) +144 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves
---- 6a. This bonus must be applicable to any and every subtype of your selected save.
Advanced Force Dragon provides +NI to all saves.

7) 144 spell-levels castable
---- 7a. Must cast 12 of these spell levels during the challenge
---- 7b. Yes, psionics count.
NI spell slots, and thus spell levels, castable. See point 12 for what he casts.

8) 144 hit points (don't laugh until you read the next one...)
In the buff rounds, he casts Greater Heroism, Empowered Maximized False Life, Empowered Maximized Aid (from Extra Spell), Empowered Maximized Heroes' Feast (from Extra Spell, and eats the feast), Summon Monster I, and Empowered Maximized Chanelled Lifetheft (with 2 full rounds spent casting it) on the summoned monster. All with Reserves of Strength.
Greater Heroism provides 20 temp hp for NI minutes.
Empowered Maximized False Life provides 10+1.5*5.5+13 = 24 (minimum) temp hp for NI hours.
Empowered Maximized Mass Aid provides 8+4.5*1.5+18 = 27 (minimum) temp hp for NI minutes.
Maximized Heroes' Feast provides 8+13 = 21 (minimum) temp hp for 12 hours.
Maximized Chanelled Lifetheft provides 5*8+10 = 50 temp hp for 1 hour.
Total: 141 temp hp for 1 hour, for a total of 144 hp.

9) Survive 144 points of possible damage each round
---- 9a. 12 damage of 10 different types each round
---- 9b. Fire, Cold, Sonic, Electricity, Acid, Profane, Divine, Piercing (silver and magic), Bludgeoning (cold iron and magic), and Slashing (adamantine and magic)
---- 9c. The elemental and divine damages may be reduced by resistances and immunities. Evasion and Improved Evasion do work to reduce these if you make a DC 100 Reflex save each round. Damage reduction also functions as normal vs the melee damages.
---- 9d. These points of possible damage are dealt to all cohorts, animal companions, mounts, etc, involved in the challenge.
Cast Favor of the Martyr in a buff round.
Regeneration (bypassed only by Good or Chaotic) converts all damage to nonlethal, Favor of the Martyr prevents the nonlethal damage.

10) Must sustain all of these stats for 144 seconds (that's effectively 24 rounds)
Actions by round: (Swift) GAF action loop (detailed in 12), (Move) move 150 ft., (Standard) breathe a cone of force.
Arthur has 30 Force Dragon heads, one per round can breath a cone of force with 6 rounds to spare.
Spells for temporary hp last >= 1 hour as noted above.
Other spells last >= NI rounds, i.e. forever.

11) An ability score of 144.
Advanced Force Dragon symbiote provides Int, Wis, and Cha of NI.

12) 12 actions per round.
Cast Arcane Spellsurge in a buff round, then cast the Greater Arcane Fusion/Sanctum Spell/Celerity combo as a swift action every round for infinite actions.

How such a creature came about (i.e. why it's raw-legal):
A wizard did it. Or part of it. Once upon a time, an epic wizard/druid/deity got bored, and played mix-and-match with a Force Dragon's heritage, creating a Half-Troll Lernaean Multiheaded Half-Dragon (Gold) Half-Dragon (Copper) Force Dragon. This dragon's name was Ford. At some point in his growth, Ford learned to cast Awaken. After becoming a great wyrm, Ford decided to use the magic on himself to gain more power.

To get NI HD:
Extra Spell: Awaken
Spells known: Contingency, Polymorph,
Items: Cloak of Epic Resistance +10 (well within a Great Wyrm Force Dragon's wealth)
Ford sets contingency to cast Polymorph right before the Awaken casting finishes, to turn into a Megaraptor (because forget mammals), still wearing the cloak. Then he casts Awaken, and succeeds the will save except on a 1. He gains 2 HD, which in turn give him +1 Will save for the next casting of Awaken.

Whatever other type he has, Ford is still a true dragon, and so every 5 HD grant another age category, per the Advanced Dragon entry in the ELH. This gives him:
-NI SR
-NI Str/Con/Int/Wis/Cha
-NI CL
-NI feats, which can be [Epic], thus Ford gets all the feats in the game except the ones the dragon doesn't qualify for (like weapon specialization :smallsigh:)

And just having NI HD grants:
-NI HP
-NI Dex (through ability score increases)
-NI NA to AC
-NI save bonuses
-NI skill ranks (and thus all languages known)

NI feats grants Ford all spells with the following combo:
Improved Spell Capacity grants a 10th level spell (and Force Dragons gain it as a bonus feat). NI HD grants feats that can be used on Extra Spell, which can be used on any spell of 9th level or lower.

And NI Improved Spell Capacity's grants Ford the ability to cast spells of any level.

Then the dragon travels to the Shriver to get regeneration 5.

After casting Awaken enough to get an insane amount of feats and spells, Ford gets bored and decides to become a symbiote with a commoner just to see what the commoner will do with the power. To prepare, Ford casts Return to Nature 6 times to shrink to Tiny size. This is possible because by RAW, Return to Nature stacks with itself (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284872). Then he goes to the Siluvanedenn ruins of Telardon and turns into a plant. At this point, his stats look like this:

Greenbound (Return to Nature x6) Half-Troll Lernaean Multiheaded Half-Dragon (Gold) Half-Dragon (Copper) Advanced (NI times) Force Dragon
Type: Plant (Augmented Giant)
Size: Tiny
HD: NId8 (NI hp)
Abilities: Str NI/Dex NI/Con NI/Int NI/Wis NI/Cha NI
BAB: NI
Saves: NI/NI/NI
AC: NI (from Cha)
Space/Reach: 2˝ ft./0 ft. (5 ft. with bite)
Attacks: 30x Bites 1d4, 2 Claws 1d3, Slam 1d3
Special Attacks: Rend 2d2, 30x 15 ft. cones of Force (NId12, DC 10+HD/2+Con), 30x 60 ft. cones of fire (6d8, DC 10+HD/2+Con, 1/day), 30x 60 ft. lines of acid (6d8, DC 10+HD/2+Con, 1/day), Frightful Presence (DC NI), Spells (CL NI), Spell-like Abilities (DC NI), Empower spell-like ability, Maximize spell-like ability
Special Qualities: DR 25/epic, DR 10/magic and slashing, SR NI, Blindsense 60 ft., Keen Senses, Deflecting Force, Displacement, Invisibility, Fast Healing 5, Scent, Grapple Bonus, Cold Resistance 10, Tremorsense 60 ft., Electricity Resistance 10, Immunities: sleep, paralysis, Force (see Force Dragon entry), Acid, Fire, attack (see Lernaean entry)
Spell-Like Abilities: CL=NI: 3/day—forcecage, maze, resilient sphere, telekinetic sphere, wall of force
CL=HD: At will—entangle, pass without trace, speak with plants; 1/day—wall of thorns

Note: Multiheaded grants 29HD, which grants 9 feats, of which 1 is Extra Spell (Awaken)

Then Ford undergoes the process to become a symbiote for Arthur (or creates an epic spell to do it, whatever).

Why Arthur's ECL is 2: 1 HD of commoner, +1 LA from the symbiotic creature template.

Why ELH is 3.5e: WotC released an update (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) that brought the ELH up to 3.5e.

What else Arthur can do:
Ford detaches from Arthur, then casts Origin of Species (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4199363&postcount=8) to create a Pun-Pun who reproduces himself asexually and is absolutely loyal to Ford, and orders the reproduced creature to True Mind Switch with Arthur. In other words, Pun-Pun at ECL 2.

Other ramblings:
I love the symbiotic creature template. Its LA is low enough that it can be bought off, it doesn't add any racial hit dice, and it grants more power than any other combination save Pun-Pun. And with the right templates and choice of base creature, you can become immune to everything. It gets completely insane if you include templates from Dragon Magazine.

My favorite template is Half-Troll, because it takes almost any creature and makes them a Giant. To paraphrase Eldariel, templates tend to make creatures more magical (eg. Humanoid -> Monstrous Humanoid -> Outsider/Aberration/Undead, Animal -> Magical Beast -> Outsider/Aberration/Undead), and this is one of the very few that go the other way while allowing you to keep all your Special Attacks, Special Qualities, and stats. It's just great for template stacking.


:smallamused: The standards for this challenge are way too low if a level 1 commoner can beat it.

Zweisteine
2013-12-29, 10:34 AM
Waitwaitwait... He's a commoner, but he can't farm you to death?


I don't think a Wizard Did this. Except maybe a certain Kobold, if he deigns to take any levels in the class.

Alefiend
2013-12-29, 12:20 PM
The notation NI means ____?

Hand_of_Vecna
2013-12-29, 12:28 PM
The notation NI means ____?

Nigh Infinite; another way of saying arbitrarily high, a number that is as high as you wish to make it, but technically not infinite.

ShneekeyTheLost
2013-12-29, 12:55 PM
The means of obtaining NI stats is flawed.

Every time the casting of Awaken is performed, there is a 1 in 20 chance of it failing. Therefore eventually this combo will fail, ending the progression.

You might get pretty high, but not arbitrarily so, unless you have a means of bypassing failure on a natural 1 which is repeatable.

heavyfuel
2013-12-29, 01:10 PM
You might get pretty high, but not arbitrarily so, unless you have a means of bypassing failure on a natural 1 which is repeatable.

Surge of Fortune (Cleric 5) allows you to discharge it and treat your next roll as a nat20. If you can cast it, you can always choose to get a nat20 given enough time.

123456789blaaa
2013-12-29, 02:24 PM
You may also want to repost in the transferred 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge (100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge)thread over on MMB. A couple of people posted new ones as well.

rockdeworld
2013-12-29, 07:40 PM
The means of obtaining NI stats is flawed.

Every time the casting of Awaken is performed, there is a 1 in 20 chance of it failing. Therefore eventually this combo will fail, ending the progression
Ford just ends the Polymorph and tries again, because it's not a combo, it's a daily routine. Failing the check 1/20 times, or even 19/20 times, still eventually gives NI HD, as there's no consequence for failing the will save on Awaken.

You may also want to repost in the transferred 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge (100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge)thread over on MMB. A couple of people posted new ones as well.
The link seems to be broken.

123456789blaaa
2013-12-29, 08:08 PM
Ford just ends the Polymorph and tries again, because it's not a combo, it's a daily routine. Failing the check 1/20 times, or even 19/20 times, still eventually gives NI HD, as there's no consequence for failing the will save on Awaken.

The link seems to be broken.

Herp derp I repeated the name instead of putting in the URL :smallredface:. This new link (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6590.0)should work.

rockdeworld
2013-12-30, 02:00 AM
Herp derp I repeated the name instead of putting in the URL :smallredface:. This new link (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6590.0)should work.
It does, thanks :smallsmile:

ShurikVch
2013-12-30, 05:24 PM
Breath weapons are wrong size
Majority of bonus feats are unusable

rockdeworld
2014-01-05, 04:59 AM
Breath weapons are wrong size
Majority of bonus feats are unusable
The breath weapons aren't based on size. I seriously doubt most feats can't be used by a first level commoner given the huge number of useless feats out there, but that doesn't affect the build anyway.

On a side note, registering on MM boards seems to be difficult. I finally succeeded.

Also, @Zweisteine: :smallamused:

ShurikVch
2014-01-05, 10:33 AM
I seriously doubt most feats can't be used by a first level commoner given the huge number of useless feats out there, but that doesn't affect the build anyway. O RLY? :smallconfused: Access to epic spellcasting doesn't affect a build? :smallamused:
Let's see... Firstly, all [epic] feats are out - your commoner is not epic.
Also, if feat's prerequisites have:
BAB at least +1 - out;
Physical stats 10+ - out;
Skill ranks more then 4 (or 2 in cross-class skills) - out;
Any of aforementioned feats as prerequisite - out.

On the other hand, by NI-optimization standards, your build is horribly under-optimized.
For example: half-dragon BW only 1/day? Are you heard about Dragon Breath (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/dragon-breath--720/) feat?
Or only 3hp? (Halfling commoner can stab you to death 5% times. :smallbiggrin: ) Simple Toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#toughness) can grant you NI hp!

But the worst thing in this build is Symbiotic template itself.
Or, to be more accurate, it's LA.
Book says: +1. But +1 to what?
Host? Guest? Combined? Nobody knows! Seriously!

rockdeworld
2014-01-05, 11:54 PM
For example: half-dragon BW only 1/day? Are you heard about Dragon Breath (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/dragon-breath--720/) feat?
Or only 3hp? (Halfling commoner can stab you to death 5% times. :smallbiggrin: ) Simple Toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#toughness) can grant you NI hp!
Good point - I forgot how some feats would affect the listed stats. Oh well, finding the HP buffs were a good mental exercise.