Druid's animal companion

[G.Cube]

Not that I disbelieve the Playground, you guys definitely know your stuff, but could someone explain to me how druid animal companions are mathematically and strategically better at a fighter's party role then a fighter is? Prefferably at various levels, as well.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Mathematically they're not, at least not without optimization or against an optimized fighter. The popular riding dog is better at first level since he gets 2 HD and AC equal to full plate with simple leather barding.
At level 4 the Fleshraker is better because he gets high AC in addition to a ridiculous attack routine while the fighter only gets a few more feats and one attack.
"Normal" animal companions aren't quite that strong and get comparatively weaker the higher the level is since they only get 2 HD for every 3 levels in druid.

Strategically, you get a meatshield that goes from better than a fighter to almost as good as a fighter (and takes up no experience or share of the loot) for free, as a class feature.
That is, as a druid you basically get to play a fighter in addition to a wild shaping full spellcaster. The fighter gets... feats, and nothing else.

[eggynack]

The animal companion isn't necessarily better than a fighter, and it isn't necessarily worse. It all depends on various factors like level, how optimized the fighter is, whether magic items are easily accessible, and how stats are assigned. Things like natural bond and exalted companion+VoP can often push the animal companion in an over the top direction, and adding companion spellbond to that can make animal companion buffing even more efficient. The animal companion also has the advantages of being completely disposable, and theoretically capable of becoming a different animal companion if the situation calls for it.

Ultimately, the animal companion may be superior to the fighter, but it doesn't need to be. Much of the time, when it comes to wizards, the question is, "What do you do after the enemy is trapped in your mighty collection of BFC's and debuffs?" The animal companion is an answer to that question, and it doesn't need to be that powerful to be the answer to that question. It's also a pretty convenient fellow to stand behind when you need that effect. The animal companion is a replacement fighter, but that doesn't mean that it has to be a better, or even equal fighter.

[Vizzerdrix]

Most animal companions come with a free druid. Fighters do not. :smallwink:

[Invader]

After low levels when fighter feat chains start opening up and better/magical gear becomes available to the fighter, animal companions aren't better.

[eggynack]

After low levels when fighter feat chains start opening up and better/magical gear becomes available to the fighter, animal companions aren't better.
Probably true, though I haven't seen the assessment done with VoP being taken into account. Seems like you could do pretty well with that. Also, as is obvious, at the levels where fighters are good, the animal companion is equal to or better than a fighter, and at the levels where fighters are bad, the fighter starts pulling ahead, and the druid no longer cares about whether the animal companion is superior to the fighter or not.

[sleepyphoenixx]

When exactly the animal companion falls behind the fighter depends on relative optimization, the type of animal and what your DM allows.
Many animals get things like Improved Trip or Grab for free in addition to size boni and often 3+ natural attacks.
If your DM allows you to select feats like the Mage Slayer line they keep up quite well if you play to their strengths, at least to the mid-levels.

I'm not sure VoP is better for animal companions than giving them good gear, or if it should even be allowed in the first place since the player doesn't give up anything (since ACs don't get loot anyway).
It also doesn't solve the problem of the AC falling behind the party in HD more and more the higher the level goes.

With PHB2 retraining rules you can just swap out your animal companion for an ACF when it starts losing it's luster.
By level 10-12 you can usually just summon a few melee monsters if you need them so switching out for the Urban Companion ACF (CS WE) gets you a beefed up familiar instead, with all it's advantages.

[eggynack]

I'm not sure VoP is better for animal companions than giving them good gear, or if it should even be allowed in the first place since the player doesn't give up anything (since ACs don't get loot anyway).
For the first point, I don't think I agree. Animal companions aren't getting that much beyond the stuff granted by VoP, especially if you think that animals are to unintelligent to activate magic items, and if VoP is anywhere close to being wealth by level then it's basically a double-money proposition. How much can you really do with items on the animal companion, and more importantly, how much do you really want to do? You're certainly not outfitting the fellow with full WBL, and you're almost certainly not giving him half. As for the second point, it definitely works per the rules, though I can see a reasonable DM ruling against it. It's certainly a cheesy maneuver.

[Invader]

Not to mention there's a very small list of AC's that ever compete with a fighter. Most are pretty worthless and the best tend to be broken to begin with (fleshraker).

[eggynack]

True enough, though to be fair you could say the same about a lot of things, including fighters. This comparison could easily stop being about a chain tripping fighter and a fleshraker, and start being about a fighter going for whirlwind attack and weapon supremacy, and a dire badger or something.

[Gnaeus]

After low levels when fighter feat chains start opening up and better/magical gear becomes available to the fighter, animal companions aren't better.

Assuming companion spellbond and a way to make your pet intelligent (like celestial companion) this is just not true.

As long as he is within 30 feet, your companion gets all your buffs. Your Heart of (All), your Primal (All), your barkskin, your Greater Magic Fangs, your Freedom of Movement, your Bite of the Were(x). The higher level you are, the weaker the BASE AC is, but the stronger your durable buffs are.

For example, by level 17, there is no longer any question. The animal companion, sharing your Shapechange, beats pretty much any fighter, regardless of what gear or feat chains he has.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Keep in mind that the animal companion is a few levels lower than the druid at higher levels so it doesn't get VoP benefits at the same rate that a PC would. Also, the benefits just aren't that good. You'll get more of them than if you outfitted the AC with barding and a resistance item, but most of them can be made up with magic because the exalted AC bonus is the only thing that stacks with the common buff spells.
Exalted feats are pretty much worthless or minor boni at best, no matter how many you get for free.
In the end you get bonus AC and save some money and buffing spells at the cost of a feat and the flexibility to equip your companion with magic items and more or less serious rp restrictions, depending on DM.

Let's see. You get:
Exalted AC bonus - can't really replicate this one with spells/gear
Exalted bonus feats - pretty much all of them suck, but you can't replicate this one either
Endure Elements - a 1st level slot, if it comes up at all (it shouldn't if you don't take a polar bear to the desert or something similar)
Exalted Strike - cast GMW. Permanency it if you want to. Good-aligned is harder without outside caster support, but not impossible.
Sustenance - all animals get ranks in survival, and there's cheap items to take care of sustenance too
Deflection - either an item or share Halo of Sand
Resistance - it's a resistance bonus, the most common for saves. Can be achieved (usually with a higher bonus earlier) with spells and items
Ability Score Enhancement - enhancement bonus, also the most common. Share a Bite of the WereX or Bulls Strength/whatever or buy an item if you have too much money.
Natural Armor - a +2 bonus (at level 16) that stacks with Barkskin. Nice, but not exactly breathtaking
Mind Shielding - doesn't protect against the really dangerous mind affecting stuff. also available via spells/items if you feel your AC needs it
Damage Reduction - cast Animal Growth. Share Heart of Earth. DR/evil is harder as pure druid but available via scrolls or items if you want it that bad.
Greater Sustenance - no need to breathe. Also available via spells/items when you need it.
Energy Resistance - too little, too late. If you need ER you'll cast a spell anyway.
Freedom of Movement - good. available via spells/items but either short duration or expensive. It comes pretty late though.
Regeneration - faster healing, but not true regeneration. cast Lesser Vigor if you need healing, it's trivial at this level
True Seeing - great. continuous True Seeing is expensive as hell and very useful. Comes up very late and few animal companions reach level 18 before epic though.

In the end i'd rather spend that feat on Companion Spellbond instead of Exalted Companion, if i cared enough to spend a feat on the animal companion at all instead of just replacing him with a familiar once he can no longer pull his weight.
You lose some AC and exalted feats and some of the later abilities are not always on but you don't need your AC to be goody goody all the time, either.

[Gnome Alone]

"My dog has taken a vow of poverty. And a vow of silence. It's left him rather frustrated though, so you'll have to excuse him; he, uh, hasn't taken a vow of chastity. That's why he's humping your leg."

[eggynack]

I see a lot of how you're copying VoP stuff with items and spells, which is a valid argument, but what in particular are you doing with items that doesn't also get accomplished with VoP? Some of these effects are also coming from spells that aren't on nearly all day, like bite of the wereX, so I think perfect replication is unfeasible along those lines. However, your note about the slower advancement of animal companions is a good one. Do the benefits of voluntary poverty even apply to animal companions, given that they only have HD rather than the character levels that are called for?

[Gnaeus]

I wouldn't specifically want Exalted Companion for the VoP (although it is a real +). You just want a way to still have an animal companion (so it qualifies for companion spellbond) and to make it intelligent. Exalted companion does that. Totem Companion works. Or Tressym or Watchspiders. It really helps a lot for it to know when to end its Heart of Earth or Heart of Water, or to know what to shapechange into.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Leaving aside the question of qualification (that's something to take up with your DM) i don't deny that Vow of Poverty has benefits. I just don't think they are worth a feat, even without the restrictions.
The really relevant ones only come at high levels anyway, where the animal companion is a minor speedbump for CR appropiate enemies at best and does nothing that can't be matched or even exceeded by summons.
Personally i slap some cheap barding and buffs on the critter and call it done until the mid-levels, when he gets traded out for the Urban Companion anyway.

Things might look different if you optimize your build for the animal companion (with Arcane Hierophant, Theurgic Bond etc.) but that's more of a niche build than the general case.
Even then i'd be leery about giving up item access for it (since you presumably spend more on it if you focus your whole build around the companion).

[eggynack]

Yeah, the feat cost is a possibly problematic thing. I suppose the question is whether exalted companion is better or worse than natural bond when it comes to the application of numerical bonuses to an animal companion. In any case, if you pick up the feat for free, through lion of talisid, it seems like a pretty clear choice.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Meh, you'd waste a feat on Lion of Talisids crappy prereq instead. If you want to go into the PrC anyway i agree though.

[eggynack]

I dunno. That once/day +1 to a single roll, but only situationally, seems like about as good as it gets for druid feats. Yeah though, it's mostly just a side benefit of a horizontal movement PrC. One of the better abilities of the PrC, actually, but not the only one. It's just a ridiculously and aggressively average PrC.

[Urpriest]

I see a lot of how you're copying VoP stuff with items and spells, which is a valid argument, but what in particular are you doing with items that doesn't also get accomplished with VoP? Some of these effects are also coming from spells that aren't on nearly all day, like bite of the wereX, so I think perfect replication is unfeasible along those lines. However, your note about the slower advancement of animal companions is a good one. Do the benefits of voluntary poverty even apply to animal companions, given that they only have HD rather than the character levels that are called for?

That phrase is your answer. Unlike class level, character level by definition includes all HD.

Anyway, itemwise, if it's got Exalted Companion or the like then it presumably can activate command-word items, like Anklets of Translocation or Healing Belts.

[eggynack]

That phrase is your answer. Unlike class level, character level by definition includes all HD.
Very fancy then.


Anyway, itemwise, if it's got Exalted Companion or the like then it presumably can activate command-word items, like Anklets of Translocation or Healing Belts.
They definitely work with exalted companion, which is a cool thing about exalted companion, but then you lose the feat advantage over the VoP path. I don't think that outfitting an animal companion with activated items is worth the feat plus the items.

[Invader]

Assuming companion spellbond and a way to make your pet intelligent (like celestial companion) this is just not true.

As long as he is within 30 feet, your companion gets all your buffs. Your Heart of (All), your Primal (All), your barkskin, your Greater Magic Fangs, your Freedom of Movement, your Bite of the Were(x). The higher level you are, the weaker the BASE AC is, but the stronger your durable buffs are.

For example, by level 17, there is no longer any question. The animal companion, sharing your Shapechange, beats pretty much any fighter, regardless of what gear or feat chains he has.

So an AC effected by shapechange to become something completely different with an entirely new set of abilities and all you need is one of the most powerful 9th lvl spells in the game and a specific set of circumstances to be in place? Yeah I guess AC's are always better than a fighter

[eggynack]

So an AC effected by shapechange to become something completely different with an entirely new set of abilities and all you need is one of the most powerful 9th lvl spells in the game and a specific set of circumstances to be in place? Yeah I guess AC's are always better than a fighter
I think that was just an extreme example. Spells are sweet, and if you can apply them at low cost, that's extra sweet. I mean, he listed a whole massive pile of spells right there in that very post. Maybe you should assess some or all of those, with regards to fighter capability.

[Invader]

My point is, yes, obviously with perfect circumstances and a tier one caster AC's can be better than a fighter but then its just a game of preparation and who has better magic items. A fighter with his WBL can replicate all those effects, hire a caster to buff him accordingly, etc.

A rock with a 20th level wizard can be better than a fighter given the most ideal circumstances but it doesn't mean it's the rule and not the exception.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can use all those buffs on an Urban Companion just as well though. It also qualifies for Enspell Familiar, giving your shared spells a range of 1 mile instead of just 30ft from Companion Spellbond. It's also intelligent, gains an empathic link, profits from your Con buffs (since it's HP are 3/4 of yours), gives you a limited continuous Speak with Animals effect and fits into a Belt of Many Pockets if you go somewhere it can't follow for some reason. It also uses your base saves, BAB and skills, making it clearly superior to a normal animal companion at higher levels.

[eggynack]

My point is, yes, obviously with perfect circumstances and a tier one caster AC's can be better than a fighter but then its just a game of preparation and who has better magic items. A fighter with his WBL can replicate all those effects, hire a caster to buff him accordingly, etc.

A rock with a 20th level wizard can be better than a fighter given the most ideal circumstances but it doesn't mean it's the rule and not the exception.
This isn't necessarily perfect circumstances or preparation. It's just about having some commonly used all day buffs, and then having the animal companion get in on them, and having some commonly used short duration buffs, and getting bonus temporary stabbing ability. Double buffs are better than single buffs, and if the two melee fellows start out reasonably close together, then a halfway decent mix of buffs can push the animal companion over the top.

[Pluto!]

GitP being hyperbolic so long that some posters start forgetting the hyperbole?!

Who ever heard of such a thing!?!

[eggynack]

GitP being hyperbolic so long that some posters start forgetting the hyperbole?!

Who ever heard of such a thing!?!
It's not all that hyperbolic. Animal companions genuinely are superior to some dedicated melee classes sometimes. Not all the time, but a good amount of the time, and that amount of the time takes place when being a good fighter matters the most.

[(Un)Inspired]

Most animal companions come with a free druid. Fighters do not. :smallwink:

...mine only came with a ranger.:smallfrown:

[Chronos]

Yeah, but the ranger he came with was twice as high level as the druid he would have come with!