[3.5] Making Somebody Attack you

[A.A.King]

I know their are ways to make sure that somebody can't move away from you ("Stand Still"). But what do you do if somebody doesn't have to move to attack you? How do you prevent the guy from attacking the wizard right next to you?

[Bigbeefie]

There is no threat in pathfinder dnd. There is nothing stopping an intellectual foe from targeting a wizard. Heck at high level that is the preferred target. The closest thing is going first and putting down enough damage to be precieved as a threat. Sorry bro but unless your dm is super tank friendly and makes everyone auto target the tank you SOL. But your wizard should be going first and laying battlefield control to keep people from harming the party as a whole.

[hymer]

There's a feat called 'Goad' (or at least it includes that word) which forces those you use it on to attack you. In general, though, you should talk to your DM, and together find out what sort of system you want to use. The default system is that the DM roleplays the monsters according to their mental capabilities and descriptions of their behaviour. In short, if they're smart, they'll go for the wizard if that is reasonably practical. To what degree s/he'll allow you to influence monsters' actions in battle is something you'll have to ask to find out.

Edit: The feat is in Miniatures Handbook IIRC.

[Vhaidara]

Knight (http://dndtools.eu/classes/knight/) has a taunt called Test of Mettle (second use of Knight's Challenge). It is beautiful.

[sideswipe]

There is no threat in pathfinder dnd. There is nothing stopping an intellectual foe from targeting a wizard. Heck at high level that is the preferred target. The closest thing is going first and putting down enough damage to be precieved as a threat. Sorry bro but unless your dm is super tank friendly and makes everyone auto target the tank you SOL. But your wizard should be going first and laying battlefield control to keep people from harming the party as a whole.

he never mentioned pathfinder. he's talking of 3.5

a very very simple solution is make a defensive character with high charisma and give him the Goad feat. its in multiple books but defiantly in miniatures handbook and i believe in most of the complete series.

you choose a target and that target makes a will save against dc 10 + 1/2 character lvl + cha. if they fail you are the only target that they can attack in melee.

it doesn't apply to casters or ranged unfortunately. only melee.

[A.A.King]

Thank you, goad is pretty much the thing I was looking for. Sadly it works on only one opponent at a time but it's better then nothing :)

The Knight's Test of Mettle is also a very nice suggestion, but I don't have a lot of room for Knight Levels. Still a good suggestion :)

Thanks for the quick help everyone

[Stux]

Not sure about ranged, but if you were looking for extra support for melee for a build like this then the Devoted Spirit discipline from Tomb of Battle has some abilities that will make the opponent not want to attack anyone else so much, if that is good enough.

Check our Iron Guard's Glare, which gives a -4 to hit for any opponent in your threat that isn't targeting you, and Defensive Rebuke, which allows you to pick an opponent and gives you a free attack of opportunity against them whenever they attack anyone other than you.

Easiest thing to do would be dip a level in Crusader (after some levels in other things to boost your initiator level). Or you can pick these up with feats (note if you take Iron Guard's Glare first that will count as a maneuver for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites for Defensive Rebuke).

[Alefiend]

I know their are ways to make sure that somebody can't move away from you ("Stand Still"). But what do you do if somebody doesn't have to move to attack you? How do you prevent the guy from attacking the wizard right next to you?

The real question to ask is, "Why is the wizard standing next to the melee beatstick?" If this is a combat situation, the wizard is asking for death. If it's surprise, well, that's why they call it surprise.

[Prime32]

The Devoted Defender PrC (at least, the first 3 levels) can negate attacks against their allies or redirect them to itself.

[StreamOfTheSky]

My favorite option is the Mindless Rage spell from Spell Compendium (and elsewhere, iirc). Level 2 mind-affecting enchantment with good range, target MUST melee attack or close to melee with you. It even restricts it from using spells or items, along with no ranged attacks. It will not suicidally run across lava to reach you, but it will be forced to try and get around the hazard as best it can, or else stand there and growl ineffectually.

And nothing your allies do to the target breaks the effect (other than dispelling it, of course).

Too often, aggro type effects are too easy to escape hatch your way out of. I like Mindless Rage b/c it pretty much can't be cheaped out of. You WILL try to melee me, and you will do it NOW!

[Big Fau]

There's also a feat in DotU that lets you redirect the enemy's attack to you.

[Bigbeefie]

What kind of ranged we talking about? And at what lvls?

Caster- You can challenge them all day, taunt, Goad, ect ect....he doesnt care...his spells dont really care your still being attacked when he drops an AoE on your party. The fireball still engulfs you and the Wizard, The cloud kill doesnt need to "Hit" you just be over the square your party is in.

Archer- Shouldnt that Wizard/Squishy use you for cover anyways against these guys along with spells like Mirror image/Blur/Displacement/Cloud X/Windwall.

Dragon- Doesn't give a **** and breaths fire on your entire party since they are right next to you then proceeds to fly out of your reach as his breath weapon recharges and he spews on you again. So Goading him wont really mean crap.

Yeah I'm really not seeing much point in a Aggro style button because it seems not really worth it. Whether its 3.5 or pathfinder and yes I've played both actually every DnD I have played. Its not the optimal way to survive as a party or character. Your better off letting your Wizard learn to keep his own skinny hide covered with spells like Invisibility instead of wasting feats for sub par ones and Dipping into classes that wont profit you much at all.

[A.A.King]

What kind of ranged we talking about? And at what lvls?

Caster- You can challenge them all day, taunt, Goad, ect ect....he doesnt care...his spells dont really care your still being attacked when he drops an AoE on your party. The fireball still engulfs you and the Wizard, The cloud kill doesnt need to "Hit" you just be over the square your party is in.

Archer- Shouldnt that Wizard/Squishy use you for cover anyways against these guys along with spells like Mirror image/Blur/Displacement/Cloud X/Windwall.

Dragon- Doesn't give a **** and breaths fire on your entire party since they are right next to you then proceeds to fly out of your reach as his breath weapon recharges and he spews on you again. So Goading him wont really mean crap.

Yeah I'm really not seeing much point in a Aggro style button because it seems not really worth it. Whether its 3.5 or pathfinder and yes I've played both actually every DnD I have played. Its not the optimal way to survive as a party or character. Your better off letting your Wizard learn to keep his own skinny hide covered with spells like Invisibility instead of wasting feats for sub par ones and Dipping into classes that wont profit you much at all.

I know it's not optimal but I'm just having a bit of fun here, I've thought of something very sub-optimal and now I'm trying to make it as optimal as possible and therefor I ask questions. Saying that it's a sub-optimal strategy to keep the party alive, isn't really helping me

[Bigbeefie]

I know it's not optimal but I'm just having a bit of fun here, I've thought of something very sub-optimal and now I'm trying to make it as optimal as possible and therefor I ask questions. Saying that it's a sub-optimal strategy to keep the party alive, isn't really helping me

You want to make something Sub-optimal into something Optimal......

Sometimes Abandoning ship is the optimal thing to do.

Here is from personal experiance.

I had a player join our group for our Rise of the Rune lord's anniversary addition. It is one of the best campaigns ever written. Well this Guy says he wants to be a paladin....Cool I love paladins...especially in pathfinder cause smite is now OP as Sh*t. He then wanted to be a tank....Shield and Warhammer. He then took useless/sub par feats against the groups suggestions at optimal feats. His character wanting to be a tank sure could take a beating...so much so he died 4 times in a campaign. You know how much money it costs to Ressurrect someone 4 times? How much that takes out of party funds? The Whole group was upset because by 14th lvl the group wealth was down a good 20k gold just from fixing his Busted ass. Then end up dying on the final boss because of equipment and melee issues.

Moral of the story is- Don't bring down your group with Sub-optimal things that get people/characters killed. Even the player hates dying in a game that is about surviving and finishing the story.

If you want to be Sub-par that's cool and all, but I don't know many people who like to be stuck fixing that guys mistake. Even DMs hate having to fix deaths or Find ways to bring in your new character cause that one Died due to poor planning.

[Vhaidara]

Dude, calm down. The impression I'm getting is that he is in a low OP group. He acknowledges that tanking is difficult and subpar, but that is the job he wants to do. So he wants to do it as best he can.

Not everything has to optimized to be as OP as possible. Some people want to play healbot clerics. Some people like playing blasters. And when they ask for advice on blasting, it's kind of rude to give them the advice of "stop wasting your time doing what you want to do and do this instead".

[Dalebert]

This is my homebrew and therefore off-topic. I apologize in advance. Anyway, I use intimidate as the taunt skill in my game. I've played so many MMORPGs with taunt as a standard feature of tanks and it just seemed like a gaping hole in D&D.

[A.A.King]

You want to make something Sub-optimal into something Optimal......

Sometimes Abandoning ship is the optimal thing to do.

Here is from personal experiance.

I had a player join our group for our Rise of the Rune lord's anniversary addition. It is one of the best campaigns ever written. Well this Guy says he wants to be a paladin....Cool I love paladins...especially in pathfinder cause smite is now OP as Sh*t. He then wanted to be a tank....Shield and Warhammer. He then took useless/sub par feats against the groups suggestions at optimal feats. His character wanting to be a tank sure could take a beating...so much so he died 4 times in a campaign. You know how much money it costs to Ressurrect someone 4 times? How much that takes out of party funds? The Whole group was upset because by 14th lvl the group wealth was down a good 20k gold just from fixing his Busted ass. Then end up dying on the final boss because of equipment and melee issues.

Moral of the story is- Don't bring down your group with Sub-optimal things that get people/characters killed. Even the player hates dying in a game that is about surviving and finishing the story.

If you want to be Sub-par that's cool and all, but I don't know many people who like to be stuck fixing that guys mistake. Even DMs hate having to fix deaths or Find ways to bring in your new character cause that one Died due to poor planning.

The problem there isn't so much the build of the paladin as well the relative power of that paladin compared to the power of the rest of the group. Obviously in your example the player was warned of the power level of the other players. However, had you all played the game at his level of optimization then the level of the encounters would have dropped and then he wouldn't have died.

The problem with the game is never the build in a vacuum, it's the build compared to that of the other players, and in this question there has yet been no mention of other players. Maybe everyone else, apart from the wizard in my example, are halfling monks who dumped Constitution. Also, the wizard might have over specialized in touch attack spells and have none of the spells you mention (and also dumped constitution). In which case, making sure that the enemy doesn't go after my feeble party members is a verily decent strategy.

All you really know is this: I chose as basis for this character the principal of making sure nobody else gets attacked. That's what I asked. "How do I make sure that I'm the one that gets attacked even though a smarter target is next to me." is what I wanted some tips on. Yes, trying to absorb damage instead of dishing it out is a sub-par strategy in melee, however that doesn't mean you can't be bloody good at it nor does it mean that choosing to try and execute a sub-par strategy is dragging the party down.

[Bigbeefie]

Dude, calm down. The impression I'm getting is that he is in a low OP group. He acknowledges that tanking is difficult and subpar, but that is the job he wants to do. So he wants to do it as best he can.

Not everything has to optimized to be as OP as possible. Some people want to play healbot clerics. Some people like playing blasters. And when they ask for advice on blasting, it's kind of rude to give them the advice of "stop wasting your time doing what you want to do and do this instead".

He wanted to Know how to basically taunt someone at ranged into fighting him....I laid down the truthful scenario that in game that doesn't work without a casting a spell.

saying I want a aggro mechanic in a game that doesn't have one.......Its like saying I want my boat to fly so I'm going to glue wings on it and hope for the best.

[A.A.King]

He wanted to Know how to basically taunt someone at ranged into fighting him....I laid down the truthful scenario that in game that doesn't work without a casting a spell.

saying I want a aggro mechanic in a game that doesn't have one.......Its like saying I want my boat to fly so I'm going to glue wings on it and hope for the best.

Well, I never said Ranged. Melee was pretty much what I was looking for. The guy standing in front of me attacking my neighbour doesn't have to move to attack someone else.

Also, the Knight's "Test of Mettle" (which Keledrath suggested) is a way to draw in both melee and ranged attacks, so how can you say the system doesn't have such a mechanic...?

[The Insanity]

Insult his mamma.

[zlefin]

to original poster:

At lower op levels, i'm not aware of much. Requesting a few imports from pathfinder might help, as I know pf has some ways to give bonus ac to an ally.

For a mundane, I'd try using a tower shield to give cover to your ally, or using alchemical items to limit targettability (use some smokesticks to provide cover or block vision).

[OldTrees1]

Well, I never said Ranged. Melee was pretty much what I was looking for. The guy standing in front of me attacking my neighbour doesn't have to move to attack someone else.


Oh, try the Knockback feat. It will move your foe away from you and your charge. Then use standstill as they approach again. Assuming reach, your foe will fail to close with you or your charge.

[Vhaidara]

By the way, I forgot to link over to this (especially since you're a paladin). It is homebrew, but it is the single most beautiful effective paladin fix I've ever seen.
The Paladin (http://charliebrew.wikispaces.com/Paladin).

It actually gives you the following abilities, to fill the role of tanking/keeping your allies alive
1. Move to an ally's square, shove them out of it, and take the hit
2. Fail you Reflex save vs an AoE and absorb it for your allies
3. Passively give nearby allies bonus to AC and saves
4. Resurrect allies who died within Cha modifier rounds (small XP cost)
5. True Res allies that you are too late with your better ability (higher XP cost)

Seriously, read it over, and ask your DM to look at it. It makes paladins into truly awesome tanks.

[Bigbeefie]

But what do you do if somebody doesn't have to move to attack you? How do you prevent the guy from attacking the wizard right next to you?

Sounds like Ranged/reach to me.......Not having to move to hit you or the wizard but is out of your range. Sorry for the Mix up on thinking it was a range problem.

2ndly here is a bit of the Test of Mettle.

:::: If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect's area.

An opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack you in melee if doing so would provoke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks against you or attack any opponents he threatens as normal.::::

If he passes his will save he is still going to be attacking whom he pleases. Remember Will saves are a common thing Among mid to higher lvl encounters. As your usually fighting Casters.

If he does fail the Will save He can still include you as part of the AoE of the spell.....or in the case of a reach fighter the Cleave to hit you and the wizard with the reach weapon from where he is standing.

It also states that he doesn't have to just focus you.....as an archer he can put the first arrow in you and the next 3 in the Wizard. I was just compelled to include you in part of my attack.

So even Test of Mettle isn't an auto aggro mechanic like in MMORPGs. That system is great I am a fan but against NPCs with high intelligence would find ways around that taunt. Like Cleaving the both of you.


Well, I never said Ranged. Melee was pretty much what I was looking for. The guy standing in front of me attacking my neighbor doesn't have to move to attack someone else.

I have suggestions for that. I've updated to pathfinder but I'm sure 3.5 has the equivalent of the feats.

Awesome Blow, Knockback, Improved overrun, Blowback
Heck you can grapple him.....Nothing says deal with me like being pinned to a floor or wall.