How to "slightly" nerf trolls

[pbdr]

So, after watching the Norwegian movie Trollhunter (which is awesome by the way, highly recommended), I am thinking I want to feature trolls in my next campaign.

I was already planning on a low-tech (late dark age) lowish magic setting, but having troll heavy monster regime is sounding fun to me right now.

The players are not great optimizers and tend to melee focus.

What I want to do is think of ways to slightly tone down trolls so that they can feature from the beginning (2nd lvl) without being overpowered.

I have MMIII and the troll vairants there I have also run across the "troll runt" which is good too.

What I am looking for in addition to that is to take all trolls own a peg or two to make them less tough overall (like I said, the PCs tend towards low op melee types, which is the troll "sweet spot").

What If I drop regen down from 5 to 2? And allow for decapitation/coup de grace?

They variants I've seen usually make it easier to scale up when needed, so I'm not worried about that....

[Sylthia]

You could make sure the players have access the acid flasks or alchemical fire, for sure. That early in the game, not every party has the means to make sure the trolls stay dead. You could also have trolls like aquatic trolls that don't regenerate if not in the right environment.

You could also build your "trolls" from the ground up. You don't have to use the entries in the MM, but you could start with some d8HD monster, make it large and give it troll like attacks and flavor text. I usually start with the monster I want, and scale it that way, since the given CR on many monsters is very narrow.

[Kudaku]

From what I can recall of that movie (which I agree is awesome!) the trolls range in size from "medium"-size humanoid trolls to the final troll, which is the size of the Chrysler building...

I think you might have a hard time scaling the baseline troll up and down to encompass that range of size and challenge ratings.

Maybe you could design a basic troll template and then apply it to other creatures, transforming them into trolls? For the "beginner trolls" I'd apply the template to a Bugbear or an Ogre, then gradually scale up through the vanilla Troll to Troll Hill Giants, Troll Ettins, Troll Gray Render, Troll Cloud Giants etc.

Something like: Darkvision 60 feet, Scent x feet (Detecting Christians Only), Regen = HD / 2 (acid, fire), add claw attacks, reduce intelligence to 6 etc.

I'd also note that if trolls have a very heavy presence in your campaign setting then it makes sense that people have adapted to overcome trolls - people don't leave home without a few flasks of alchemist's fire, there are weapons specifically designed to sprinkle acid with each blow (like the battle aspergillum (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/battle-aspergillum) but for acid), and so on.

[Spore]

Slow down the regeneration significantly, if decapitated/dismembered. Have the standard regen, but if they are "dead", regen slows down to HP/minute. That way they're rewarded for smart tactics (focussing damage) and you still have the whole "that arm grows right back" feeling.

That mephitesque environment regenerating is also a nice idea.

[Zombulian]

Maybe look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254534) thread for ideas. Btw where is this troll runt variant you speak of?

[awa]

you could go another rout based on folk lore and make "weak" troll shaken or even sickened in the presence of light or bells things even 1st level adventures could easy get a hold of.

[BWR]

Ignore MM trolls, which are not real trolls, use ogres, which are closer. Possibly hill giants. Give them light vulnerability and sunlight kill weaknesses.
Read some of the fairy tales (http://oaks.nvg.org/norwegian-folktales.html)which inspired Tolljegeren.

[BloodyMartian]

Regeneration in Pathfinder doesn't function the turn after a creature takes damage from its weakness, so if the party is carrying any torches the trolls never regenerate.

[Toliudar]

Replace regeneration with fast healing to make it easier for the melee types to finish them off. Reflavour goblinoids and ogres as weaker trolls, and give them fast healing 1.

[Dalebert]

I feel so silly. I thought you were trying to find a way to hinder people who act out to try to illicit reactions out of people on forums.

[TuggyNE]

I feel so silly. I thought you were trying to find a way to hinder people who act out to try to illicit reactions out of people on forums.

That's not possible. :smalltongue: But if it was, why would anyone limit it to slight nerfs? :smallconfused:

[ericgrau]

If you remember to track lighting the players will have torches (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#torch), lanterns (and oil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#oil)) to finish it off. And they can use regular damage to knock it unconscious first. Worst case scenario tie it up or something.

At CR 5 a regular troll is fine for a party of four 3rd level adventurers to make a difficult fight. So really you only need to take it down 1-2 CR to throw one at them at the very beginning. Maybe -2 CR to give the players an easier start to the campaign.

The suggested refluffed ogre (CR 3) is one way. Or you can drop down the troll's stats to something similar: 4d8 + 12 = 30 hp, Initiative +2, Speed 30', AC 14 (touch 11, FF 13), Grapple +11, 2 claws +7 melee (1d6+3) and bite +2 melee (1d6+1), Rend 2d6+4, Darkvision 90', Low light vision, Scent, Regeneration 3, Fort +8, Ref +3, Will +2, Str 17, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6, Listen +3, Spot +4, Feats (Alertness, Iron Will). CR 3.

A rend can still drop someone down into the negatives in one shot whether he's the mage or the fighter, but at a +7 to hit rends will be uncommon.

[Scow2]

That's not possible. :smalltongue: But if it was, why would anyone limit it to slight nerfs? :smallconfused:Because they can be entertaining when they're just over-the-top enough but not too outright offensive?

[137beth]

D&D trolls are already a lot weaker than internet trolls. I mean, internet trolls feed of flaming, while D&D trolls are hurt by it:smalltongue:

[Dr. Cliché]

Is the Half-troll template any good for this?

[ericgrau]

They are 4 +LA IIRC though I forget the +CR. I think they would be quite the glass cannon. Encounters that are either over in an instant or kill one or more PCs but rarely in between aren't the greatest. I would think the opposite: half-troll would be good for continuing into high level trolls later.

[Psyren]

Regeneration in Pathfinder doesn't function the turn after a creature takes damage from its weakness, so if the party is carrying any torches the trolls never regenerate.

This - go with Pathfinder. It even fits with mythology as the fighters hack a troll to pieces and hold a torch to their stumps until they are downed for good.

[Valwyn]

Maybe let your players (or maybe some animals they have) take the Fire Heritage feat (+1 initiative, +1 point of fire damage on natural/unarmed attacks) or the Weapon and Torch combat style feat (on a successful attack with a melee weapon, deal 1d6 fire damage with your torch and dazzle them for 1d4 rounds). They don't have any prerequisites, so they can be taken at level 1.

[awa]

alchemist fires hit for an extra round if using the pathfinder fire shuts down regeneration you would only need to throw one every other rnd

[TypoNinja]

And allow for decapitation/coup de grace?

You don't have to 'allow for it' it already works.


Coup de Grace

As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

And from the regeneration entry

A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.

So as long as you Coup De Grace with a lit torch, or some such, the troll still has to make that DC 10+damage dealt fort save or die.

This is where the party rogue really shines, since SA dice are the same damage type as their triggering source some extra SA to beef up that fort save will help insure the thing stays down.

Failing that, hit it a few times in a row, bound to roll low on that fort save sooner or later.

Or my favorite low level solution, hack it to bits, and feed the bits to a camp fire.

[BWR]

I feel the need to point out, again, that traditional Norse trolls don't have regeneration at all. Just use the ogre, which is a much better representation all around. A troll by any other name still smells as bad.

[Yogibear41]

Could use the half troll template on a 1st or 2nd level warrior to start with, then once they get to higher levels use a normal troll.

If they are all melee nothing is stopping them from beating the stew out of it with non-lethal damage then just lighting the body on fire while its knocked out to finish it off.

Trolls in a game I play in have to be dealt 100% of their health in fire or acid damage to kill them. And if you hack them to pieces after they are dead but don't burn the pieces each new piece grows into a new full fledged troll in 15 or so minutes.

Few times we have fought one we usually beat the stew out of it then make a big bonfire on its corpse. Does the trick well enough.

Alternatively to the half troll is the Troll-blooded feat from one of the dragon magazines that just gives regen: 1 has to be taken at 1st and has toughness as a prerequisite.

[Magesmiley]

Well... you could always use Scrags (I think I got the name right) and have the PCs encounter them out of water initially.

[Thrawn183]

With 65 HP and an AC of only 16, a troll isn't much of a threat at CR 5, but for a level 2 party... ouch.

I'm actually going to suggest a totally different path here, why not refluff zombies? Replace their DR with regeneration 2 or 5 based on their size and get rid of their undead traits (except for the single actions thing). Should be easy enough to deal with.

[Faily]

Except that zombies do not really fit the trolls featured in Nordic tales and the movie Trollhunter.

In the tales, they are closer to the Giant-variants (Ogres, Hill Giants, Stone Giants) than anything else represented in D&D.

They are vulnerable to sunlight (which will petrify them), and do not have Regeneration (The Ash Lad who had an eating match with the troll: the boy tricks the troll into cutting open his stomach to leave room for more food, which of course kills him). Most of them are not overly clever (dumb Giant intellect level). They can eat pretty much anything, so they are probably immune to poison and/or disease. They can see in the dark, and are hardy in a straight up fight, so most likely some sort of Damage Reduction.

Some trolls possess magical abilities (like the Mountain King, but he's an exception to the normal troll, and it could be debated if the figure is actually a troll like the common troll-type), and also have great treasures stored away (numerous folk tales tell how the protagonist find buckets of gold and silver, or trick it from them).


/2 coppers from one who is born, raised and lives in Norway.

[pbdr]

Btw where is this troll runt variant you speak of?

It is on th D&D wiki, but i think it is a home brew thing.

I think what I will do is use a combination of some smaller trolls (call it a runt, or troll-ling) in the beginning and as general mooks at higher level. And I ca use some of the other types of trolls as the group gets tougher.

And maybe tweak regeneration slightly, make it a few points less and allow for decapitation to kill them (as a coup de grace).

[Psyren]

So as long as you Coup De Grace with a lit torch, or some such, the troll still has to make that DC 10+damage dealt fort save or die.

The problem here is that in 3.5, only the fire damage from the torch will count. So it's going to be a flat DC 11 fort save, and trolls have a +11 fort already - he will only fail on a one.

[Propagandalf]

I got the same urge after seeing Trollhunter! (never got around to it though:smalltongue:)

Hope it goes well for you! :smallbiggrin:

I'll second the suggestion to refluff other monsters to create trollish opponents.

Also do check the art of a norwegian artist Theodor Kittelsen if you want some inspiration for trolls/environment.

[ksbsnowowl]

My Norse Bestiary (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=215.0) might be of used to you.

I have three types of trolls:
1) Those that don't regenerate (Ogres, Skullcrusher Ogres, Ettins)
These types are only Male. They reproduce by capturing human women and mating with them (yes, its a somewhat grim world). Male offspring are fertile Ogres, etc; Female offspring are "trollwife" hags, and are sterile.

2) Those that have fast healing (Forest Trolls, Cave Trolls, Mountain Trolls; many things with the Half-Troll template from Fiend Folio). Most of these just breed amongst their own. Both males and females are fertile.

3) Those that regenerate. Males and females are both fertile, but often the males will mate with a human female anyway, because it gives their tribe an "easy" infusion of magical ability, as the offspring are Half-Troll Hags (type of hag dependent upon the troll type; MM1 Troll = Annis, Ice Troll = Marzanna, Scrag = Sea Hag, etc)

At low levels you can use things like Feral Tasloi (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001b&page=3) or Feral Forestkith Goblins (MM3). You could also just tack on Fast Healing 2 to them for something like increasing their CR from 1/2 or 1/3 to 1. Probably also make them at least Monstrous Humanoids instead of Humanoids, if not just making them giants (despite their small size).

The Half-Troll template really seems like what you want though. Fast Healing 5, not Regeneration, which just really means the troll in effect just has some extra hit points for your warrior-type PC's to slog through.

[ksbsnowowl]

Also, the Fensir from Fiend Folio are probably the monster closest to typical Norse trolls. They are turned to stone by sunlight, and have magical abilities (they cast as Wizard 5's). They're just smarter than a lot of Norse trolls. Just make a few that are dumb and voila, no spellcasting.

The Mineral Warrior template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) is a good way to make dumb trolls that are like geographical features. They sit around looking like boulders and cliffs. I have a Primordial Giant Mineral Warrior Mountain Giant with at will Invisibility Purge that just sits like a cliff in front of the entrance to an underground troll king's realm. He is the ultimate door guard.

Oh yeah, MM2's Mountain Giant is basically a perfect example of a Colossal norse troll. Dumb, no regeneration, throws things. Its listed CR of 26 is just ludicrous, though. Work by others here at GitP has pegged its true CR at around 16.

[Envyus]

I feel the need to point out, again, that traditional Norse trolls don't have regeneration at all. Just use the ogre, which is a much better representation all around. A troll by any other name still smells as bad.
People like D&D regenerating Trolls. Why do you think they are going to use them.

[ksbsnowowl]

People like D&D regenerating Trolls. Why do you think they are going to use them.

Indeed. I've been running a Norse Viking game for four years now. I know that Norse trolls didn't regenerate, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to use my favorite D&D monster of all time. I LOVE regeneration!

[AlltheBooks]

Great ideas in this thread. Troll thread, awesome.

As already mentioned but I'd like to reinforce. Don't change them at all. Hell throw a war troll at them while lvl 2! Simply have some environmental interaction at hand. Just make sure it is obvious they can't take it. They still might try but weeding out the weak and all that.
Did a campaign like that involving really giant giants. Slowly scaled back the available environments (with planning around lvl 6 I was giving them choices of battleground if they managed X and Y, by 13 very little help) so they faced foes of around the same power level the whole time, just on different terms.

This campaign got huge reviews. The players really felt themselves grow to meet the challenges, but had to be badass in the lower levels before they become demi gods punching it out with godzilla. Or Pacific Rim would be more accurate but that wasn't around at the time. I'm thinking of melding that campaign into a current one like episodes during the main event.

[Norin]

Its a great movie indeed.

Giants, with modifications, fit the bill better than trolls, I agree.


Also, it seems we have more Norwegians here than I would have imagined. Hi from a fellow Norwegian! :smallbiggrin:

[BWR]

People like D&D regenerating Trolls. Why do you think they are going to use them.

Because most people only know D&D trolls and don't know/can't get their head around that it's wrong?
That's all I've been able to conclude over the years. We're right, they're wrong, nya nya nya and other childish exclamations.

More seriously, since the OP wanted to base it off Trolljegeren, getting rid of regeneration is kind of obvious since none of them regenerated.