[PF]So I made a lvl 1 Bard. What should I expect?

[jaydubs]

So I just made it into a Roll20 Pathfinder campaign. And the character I've submitted is a level 1 archer bard.

Now, I've read a lot of weird things here and there about bards. Bards are great! Bards are terrible! Bards are the jacks of all trades, masters of none. Bards are really just kind of meh at everything.

So what are your personal experiences with this class? Where should I put my expectations? And do you have any advice on how to have a fun (for both me and my party) and non-frustrating (I guess this is mostly for me) time?

You can take a look here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=746981) if you like (it was a 20 point buy). But I'm happy with general thoughts and experiences.

[Psyren]

I would personally shift some of that Strength into Charisma. You're an archer and a bard, you don't need to be that strong; the Cha will be much more useful for you. Your big issue will be getting more damage onto your arrows - there are archery feats like Manyshot and Clustered Shots to help with that, and also some bardic goodies like Arcane Strike and Discordant Voice.

Have you checked the updated Bard Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ogz8HL6GeguT-tN3-6HxXiF_G7mg_tyAQ59V9kPg6g4/edit) yet?

[jaydubs]

I was considering upping charisma. But both that one and Treantmonk's suggested that charisma 14 was enough. Up it to 16 with items was the advice.

And I'm having trouble coming up with a 20 point buy set that I like that includes a 15/16 charisma.

[Psyren]

I was considering upping charisma. But both that one and Treantmonk's suggested that charisma 14 was enough. Up it to 16 with items was the advice.

And I'm having trouble coming up with a 20 point buy set that I like that includes a 15/16 charisma.

The question is not really "is 14 charisma enough" (you're a caster, you can always get more benefit out of your casting stat.) Rather, the question is, "what am I getting out of 14 Str?" As an archer/caster, my response to that would be "not a whole lot."

[StreamOfTheSky]

I didn't find too much success with my vanilla bard archer shortly after PF launched, the damage was just too poor, and total lack of feat support hurts a lot early on since archery is so feat heavy.

I think a Bard in PF benefits a lot from specializing a bit via an archetype. Which leads me to ask... What does the rest of the party look like? If they're mostly casters and won't be caring about Inspire Courage anyway, there's a couple good Bard archetypes with a self-only version of inspire that come with built-in perks to make up for being self-only and will make you better in combat. One, Archaeologist, gives the bonus to more stuff and is only a swift to activate (it gets a tiny amount of rounds/day, but Lingering Performance feat easily extends its use a ton) and as a luck bonus stacks awesomely with the Fate's Favored trait for an extra +1. The other archetype, Dervish of Dawn, gives you double the normal bonus(!), though the DoD is somewhat wasted if not using a scimitar due to other class features.

Also, are you set on being an archer, and is that what the party needs? You could try to make a non-traditional archer... Starting at level 3, the Thundercaller Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/thundercaller) can use performance rounds to drop Sound Bursts on foes, which is pretty darn good (the damage even scales up w/ level...slowly, though the main appeal is still the AoE stunning) and ranged-focused, if not a true "archer."

[Squirrel_Dude]

If you're going to work towards being an archer, have a look at the Arcane Archer PrC. Human Bards make the best entrants because their bonus feat allows them to more easily meet the prerequisites and also take the feats necessary to be a good archer (clustered shots, arcane strike, etc.)

[jaydubs]

The question is not really "is 14 charisma enough" (you're a caster, you can always get more benefit out of your casting stat.) Rather, the question is, "what am I getting out of 14 Str?" As an archer/caster, my response to that would be "not a whole lot."

Well, I think the idea was "archer with support casting." But I suppose losing +1 or +2 damage isn't that bad. I'll think on whether or not I want to make that switch.

In the meantime, do you think

Str 10 Dex 16(18) Con 12 Int 12 Wis 7 Cha 16

or

Str 13 Dex 16(18) Con 12 Int 12 Wis 7 Cha 15

would be better? Or would you recommend an entirely different set?


I didn't find too much success with my vanilla bard archer shortly after PF launched, the damage was just too poor, and total lack of feat support hurts a lot early on since archery is so feat heavy.

I think a Bard in PF benefits a lot from specializing a bit via an archetype. Which leads me to ask... What does the rest of the party look like? If they're mostly casters and won't be caring about Inspire Courage anyway, there's a couple good Bard archetypes with a self-only version of inspire that come with built-in perks to make up for being self-only and will make you better in combat. One, Archaeologist, gives the bonus to more stuff and is only a swift to activate (it gets a tiny amount of rounds/day, but Lingering Performance feat easily extends its use a ton) and as a luck bonus stacks awesomely with the Fate's Favored trait for an extra +1. The other archetype, Dervish of Dawn, gives you double the normal bonus(!), though the DoD is somewhat wasted if not using a scimitar due to other class features.

Also, are you set on being an archer, and is that what the party needs? You could try to make a non-traditional archer... Starting at level 3, the Thundercaller Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/thundercaller) can use performance rounds to drop Sound Bursts on foes, which is pretty darn good (the damage even scales up w/ level...slowly, though the main appeal is still the AoE stunning) and ranged-focused, if not a true "archer."

The other characters (so far) are a paladin, a barbarian, and a cleric. Probably going to add 1-2 more characters, but not sure which. It's just a beginner's introduction to pathfinder game (I've played a bit of 3.5, but not PF).

We're limited to:

1) Core Rulebook
2) Advanced Player's Guide (No Summoners)
3) Advanced Race Guide (Core Races Only)
4) Ultimate Magic (Magus Class, Spells, Equipment, Skills, Feats Only)
5) Ultimate Combat (Feats Only)

[CIDE]

"But you normally play fighters"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4LzxqXBWhss/TbbbjqIuUnI/AAAAAAAAABc/Jb7diFbUWyk/s1600/vlcsnap-2011-04-26-07h38m27s219.png

How different could it be?

As for you... I wouldn't be too hung up on dealing damage. I know Bards can do it in 3.5 but Pathfinder has considerably fewer options for an awesome damage bard. It might just be easier for you to focus on the magic, buffs, etc.

[jaydubs]

Egads! :smalleek:

Well at least it will be an interesting game. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Well, I think the idea was "archer with support casting." But I suppose losing +1 or +2 damage isn't that bad. I'll think on whether or not I want to make that switch.

I'm afraid I'm still confused. What are you using strength for? You aren't proficient with composite bows unless you burn a feat or dip, so your Str shouldn't be giving you any damage either way.



In the meantime, do you think

Str 10 Dex 16(18) Con 12 Int 12 Wis 7 Cha 16

or

Str 13 Dex 16(18) Con 12 Int 12 Wis 7 Cha 15

would be better? Or would you recommend an entirely different set?

I'd go with the first one (though personally I would go with 8 Str/8 Wis just because I hate having less than 8 in a stat.) At later levels you can pick up an Agile Rapier if you really want to melee, and as above your Str won't affect your damage at all.

[jaydubs]

"For the purposes of Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, and similar feats, a composite shortbow is treated as if it were a shortbow."

I think that means bards are proficient with them, but it's not the first time I've misunderstood a rule. Would that change your opinion on strength?

[Psyren]

"For the purposes of Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, and similar feats, a composite shortbow is treated as if it were a shortbow."

I think that means bards are proficient with them, but it's not the first time I've misunderstood a rule. Would that change your opinion on strength?

Yeah they are, but it really wouldn't change my opinion, no. +2 damage to me isn't worth nearly as much as more spells, higher save DCs, better social interactions and UMD checks etc.

[jaydubs]

Hm... okay. Let me just think out loud for a second. If I switch to 8 strength and go up to 16 charisma, I'll lose:

+2 damage per shot. With a full archery feat chain, that's something like 12 damage. At low levels, 4 damage.
+3 melee damage and attack.
Carrying capacity.
+3 to strength skills.

I'll get:

+1 charisma based skills. So social and UMD.
+1 versatile performer skills
+1 spell at some level
No longer absolutely need a +Cha item.
+1 save DC on spells.
+1 round of bardic performance.
Fluff-wise, be more of a handsome lech.

[Karoht]

Soundstriker Archetype. That's all you need. At level 6 you start being able to use Weird Words, allowing you to turn your Charisma into 6x-10x damage. Fort save for half. Hits Touch AC's. Oh, and there is an argument on the Paizo boards regarding if it deals with DR or not. SU abilities supposedly bipass DR.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/sound-striker

Want Charisma to AC and Reflex and CMD? Take a level of Oracle, pick Nature Mystery. Take Nature's Whispers.
"Nature’s Whispers (Ex): You have become so attuned to the whispers of the natural world, from the croaking of frogs to the groaning of great boulders, that your surroundings constantly keep you preternaturally aware of danger. You may add your Charisma modifier, instead of your Dexterity modifier, to your Armor Class and CMD. Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class."
Want Charisma to all Saves? Buy a wand of Bestow Grace, it's a second level spell, the wand is cheap and will last you long enough. Trust me. Requires a good alignment though, any good will do.

The only thing you need now is Dex to hit (Weird Words hits touch AC's, which are low and therefore easier to hit), Int for skill points, Con for survivability, Wisdom for perception (Sense Motive can be looked after with a Perform skill using Versatile Performance). Strength is your dump stat.

[illyahr]

Hm... okay. Let me just think out loud for a second. If I switch to 8 strength and go up to 16 charisma, I'll lose:

+2 damage per shot. With a full archery feat chain, that's something like 12 damage. At low levels, 4 damage.
+3 melee damage and attack.
Carrying capacity.
+3 to strength skills.

I'll get:

+1 charisma based skills. So social and UMD.
+1 versatile performer skills
+1 spell at some level
No longer absolutely need a +Cha item.
+1 save DC on spells.
+1 round of bardic performance.
Fluff-wise, be more of a handsome lech.

You also have to remember your party composition. +3 atk/dam in melee? +3 Strength skills? With 3 primary melee party members? You won't be doing anything the other party members can't do twice as well. As a long-time 3.P Bard player, my advice is this: You are much too squishy to go melee or be using Strength-based skills.

As for the extra +2 from your bow: remember, you get -4 to hit when firing at someone who is threatened by a party member. You will get maybe one round of firing (assuming you win initiative) before you have to watch your shots. Go with a crossbow to get that initial oomph, then focus on party support (as the only arcane caster so far, load up on buff and field control spells).

[Psyren]

(1) Melee damage/attack - pointless, you should be going for an Agile weapon and finesse anyway. At low levels, you shouldn't be in melee at all.
(2) An extra haste, arcane concordance, good hope, or lower level spells like allegro/haunting mists per day. You should still be going for a +Cha item since that will get you even more of the good stuff.
(3) Better chance at landing a save spell like grease or glitterdust, which will ultimately result in more total damage than a piddly bonus to your muscles. (e.g. a blind target is much easier to hit.)
(4) Carrying capacity is irrelevant, or soon will be.
(5) Str-skills - you have spells and IC for those.

Again, this is just my opinion - you asked for advice and I'm giving it.

[jaydubs]

Yeah, I did ask for your opinion. And I think you've convinced me. Especially when I consider I'm a lot more likely to run into a magical shortbow than a magical composite shortbow of exactly +2 strength.

Thanks. :smallsmile:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Agile is not an option from his allowed sources.

OP, if you do want to be an archer, I'd suggest being a Half-Elf and taking the Ancestral Arms variant (trades Skill Focus, I think it's in APG) to get proficiency with longbows.

I still think it's lame that rogues and bards get shoehorned into using shortbows...

[Psyren]

I still think it's lame that rogues and bards get shoehorned into using shortbows...

It makes sense to me, they're not really martial types (except for the kind of weapons that can be easily concealed or used on the move.) Longbows are more for hunting I think, which I don't see either of them really doing.

[jaydubs]

I prefer to play human both for fluff reasons, and because I like the bonuses.

In other news, roster is now bard (me), barbarian, sorcerer, cleric, rogue, ranger, monk. So there's plenty of people for inspire courage to actually help, and I don't have to worry about being the sole arcane caster. :smallsmile:

[Just to Browse]

At level 1, expect the following:
If you can't use skills regularly, you will be kind of floundering. With no real attack spells (try daze?), weak damage, and no inherent tankiness you are basically a liability. But so is almost everyone. Try not to get in the barbarian's way.
You are almost all utility. Use it.
Expect to die because you're level 1.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Random thing: I might personally recommend that you take arcane strike instead of rapid shot at level 1 because the -2 to attack is really going to hurt you at this level, as opposed to the basically free scaling bonus +1 to damage.

It's kind of a toss up, but you should probably grab and deadly aim, soon.

[jaydubs]

Yeah, I was thinking about that. Rapid shot, Precise Shot, Arcane Strike, and Deadly Aim, in some order up through level 7. And then Manyshot at level 9.

I think rapid shot ends up being better unless you're facing high AC enemies though.