3.5 Swashbuckling hero build help

[Evandar]

Heya, goodly folk of the Playground. My friend Joey is starting up a campaign (+100 for not having to DM for this group for the first time in three years) and I've got a character concept in mind.

Bla bla bla, backstory, basically the character I have in mind is the stereotypical swashbuckling wisecracker. I've broken down what I want into combat efficiency (because the party is small and I need to pull my weight) and flavor (because I need to pull my weight with style.

I was thinking I want to:

a ) Have a decent BaB.
b ) Be able to fight on the frontline.
c ) Consistently have maximum ranks in Jump, Balance and Tumble.

The first class to spring to mind was the Swashbuckler! I glanced over it, looking for an opportunity to buckle my swash with great valor!

... Except it kinda sucked. Full BaB was kinda sweet, d10 HD is awesome, and everything else made me cry a little bit. A lot of the abilities were full of suck. Weapon Finesse for free is nice I guess. Insightful Strike (int modifier in precision damage) was interesting but makes me really MAD without high returns.

Eventually I threw this together:

Swashbuckler 3 (for insightful strike)
Rogue 2 (Daring Outlaw will give me 3d6 SA damage -- but my BaB drops :smallfrown:)
Thief-Acrobat 5 (So much flavor -- but my BaB drops more and some of the returns are questionable :smallfrown::smallfrown:)
Dervish 10 (This class appears to be the sexiest thing since The Beatles)

Now, I don't need to be heavily optimized or anything like that. It just seems like this class combination is highly suspect. I'm not entirely sure how the Jump/Balance ranks are really going to help me, since even if I take advantage of the terrain, I'm going to get nuked in close combat. My BaB isn't full and I take a pretty big hit to HP from the Thief-Acrobat/Rogue levels.

So:


I'm dead set on taking those Dervish levels
I want to leap around and balance on things swashbuckler style.
I'd like it for that to actually be useful in combat.
I don't actually care if I drop the actual swashbuckler class.
We have a 32 point buy and LA races generally are not allowed (but our DM is a very nice and reasonable guy).
I'm willing to subscribe to 4 classes tops, and no, there's no experience penalty in our games.
I'm not touching the spiked chain for any reason, ever.
No spellcasting abilities, but I'm willing to work magic items into the build.


I'm willing to accept pretty much any advice on the build or obscure feats that I haven't heard of. (I've noticed you guys seem to have a somewhat terrifying repertoire of feats from books I've never even heard of despite playing for a few years now) I'm expecting to be advised to drop Thief-Acrobat altogether, but don't know what should take its place, since Swashbuckler is lackluster.

Thanks to anyone who lends a hand (or even to people that point out this might be unworkable -- at least it'd save me time).

[Kaje]

Are you familiar with the Warblade?

[DeusMortuusEst]

Are you familiar with the Warblade?

And here I was hoping to be the first to bring up ToB :smalltongue:

But yea, a Warblade should work out pretty well as a base for this I think. Focus on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart and you're set, and move into Dervish when you feel like it.

EDIT: If you are going with TWF then Tiger Claw is awesome. Here's the Dervish Handbook! (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1057856)

[Kennisiou]

I'd suggest avoiding Thief Acrobat entirely in favor of grabbing 2 more levels of Rogue. This lets your sneak attack damage go up to 4d6 from 3d6, allows you to trade out the less useful trap sense class feature for the penetrating strike alternate class feature (dungeonscape) at level three (lets you deal half sneak attack damage to targets that would normally be SA-immune, like constructs), and lets you trade out uncanny dodge for the disruptive attack ACF (PHB2) which lets you get reduce sneak attack damage to instead give your target an AC penalty for the rest of the round (if you combine this with multiple attacks nicely, you can lead with a sneak attack to reduce their AC, then let your follow-up attacks hit for damage they normally wouldn't get due to inaccuracy). You wind up losing out on some HP, but you get "full" base attack bonus progression over those two rogue levels.

In the place of the remaining three thief acrobat levels, I suggest you take three swordsage levels. This will let you grab maneuvers to be more useful in combat and, most importantly, lets you grab the stance "assassin's stance" at level nine (+2d6 sneak attack dice while in the stance). This will qualify you for a feat called shadow blade, which allows you to add your dexterity to damage on all attacks while in a shadow hand stance - very thematic for your character's swashbuckling style. The second level also gets you wisdom to AC, which you probably won't use much since it's likely to be a dump stat for you, but since it's meant to emulate the monk's wisdom to AC class feature ask your DM if the feat Kung Fu Genius (dragon compendium) could be applied to the Swordsage's AC bonus, a feat that lets the monk get int to AC instead of wisdom. You wouldn't qualify for it until level nine, where you have better things to do (re: shadow blade), but if your DM allows it it's something to consider for level 12.

It's especially important to note that the swordsage levels granting you maneuvers will give you access to a lot of maneuvers that help you with your ideas of leaping around the battlefield to be effective, stuff that lets you make cool looking charges or make jump checks as a swift action, as well as giving you cool techniques you could fluff out as sword flourishes or clever combat tricks.

[Evandar]

Geez, is there anything melee-related that the ToB isn't the answer to?

All right, I was going to avoid the ToB because our party has a Crusader, but I guess it won't hurt if I RP myself in a swashbucklery way and rename some of the moves.

Should I be looking into any sources of precision damage to use skill tricks like Acrobatic Backstab, d'you guys think? Or should I restrict the jumping and balancing to pure excess in combat and focus on laying down the traditional smackdown?

(And the Dervish guide is great, although I've seen it already :smallsmile: )

I think I'm going to beg the DM to let me swap some of the Warblade class skills around, and that'll solve a lot of my issues with the class. Also RIP Thief-Acrobat.

EDIT: Kenni, I love you.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Geez, is there anything melee-related that the ToB isn't the answer to?

There's probably something.

But I don't know what that would be.

[Kennisiou]

Posting here again to note that re-reading Kung Fu genius, it doesn't specify only the monk's AC bonus, but every monk class feature that uses wisdom (which, if you don't take stunning fist, is just the AC bonus iirc) and that you take the feat BEFORE taking any monk levels. Again, talk to your DM about adapting the feat to swordsage use before planning on taking it, but on the thematic level it fits swordsage for the same reason it fits monk (replacing a deep meditative understanding with a deep studious one) and mechanically it's having the same effect. It's just that as the rules are written it doesn't cross over. Even if the DM's not cool with the idea, I think the swordsage levels are still pretty much your best be for realizing the build. Nets you maneuvers, assassin's stance (letting you get +6d6 sneak attack all told), gets you the qualifiers for shadow blade, and just fits nicely with the mechanics of your build (not so much the fluff, as the fluff of swordsage tends to emphasize their wisdom features even though mechanically they tend to do best emphasizing Dex, but the fluff can always be changed if the mechanics reflect those changes without serious dissonance).

Straight warblade going into Dervish or warblade + 3 levels swashbuckler or warblade + the swashbuckler/rogue level combo I suggested all can also fit thematically as well, and warblade definitely offers you a lot, but I feel like Swordsage's easy access to shadow blade is a lot better for you.

Oh, also, I know it's probably already on your radar, but in case it's not - having sneak attack from rogue qualifies you for the craven feat (champions of ruin), which means you cannot be fear immune but on any sneak attack you make you add your level as damage in addition to the dice. If you dislike it for its fear vulnerabilities not matching your fluff well then don't worry, it's not necessary for the build, but it is definitely going to be the best feat to take for damage on your build as long as you're reliably sneak attacking, so keep it in mind.

[Evandar]

That wasn't on my radar, so that's awesome!

So basically I can TWF, I'll have 6d6 SA damage (which can be partially applied to crit-immune foes), and the ability to swift action greater invisibility from the Shadow Hand school, then churn that out into a million sneak attacks from the Dervish capstone (and avoiding the AoOs from movement because I'm invisible).

In style.

[Valwyn]

If you're going to use a dagger instead of a rapier or sword (or can convince your DM to make some changes), you could try Invisible Blade for improved feinting, Int to AC, and more sneak attack when using certain weapons. There's a post somewhere from the creator of the class that says Invisible Blade and Master Thrower were originally one class and that's why IB has weird prerequisites and that they should be Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus (I think, can't remember right now).

There are a few feats you might like, like Einhander, Cloak Combat Expert, and Combat Panache (these aren't great, but are flavorful). Elusive Target is a good feat you might want to consider as well.

[illyahr]

Almost anything the Swashbuckler can do, the Fighter can do better. My suggestion (if you want to avoid over-using ToB): Fighter/Rogue and prestige as a Duelist. The Swashbuckler was an attempt to make the Duelist a regular class (which failed miserably).

[GreenETC]

Almost anything the Swashbuckler can do, the Fighter can do better. My suggestion (if you want to avoid over-using ToB): Fighter/Rogue and prestige as a Duelist. The Swashbuckler was an attempt to make the Duelist a regular class (which failed miserably).
Of course, there is one thing a Swashbuckler can do better than a Fighter: Daring Outlaw!

I'd say Daring Outlaw would be a great way to get a nice Swashbuckling character without going ToB, and with 3 levels of Rogue in there, you'll be pulling your weight pretty well provided you have someone to flank with.

[Greenish]

All right, I was going to avoid the ToB because our party has a CrusaderThat's like saying you don't want to be a cleric because someone in the party is playing a wizard. :smallamused:

[Kane0]

Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 16/Thief Acrobat 1 would be good with daring outlaw, but if you want dervish levels i'd probably switch swashbuckler for fighter. I'm not sure if you can manage Rogue 3/Fighter 6/Thief acrobat 1/ Dervish 10 but if you can that might work for you.

Swapping rogue for scout might be interesting if you want to focus on mobility in a fight.

Edit: Scout or swashbuckler 9/Thief Acrobat 1/Dervish 10 might also be interesting, but im afb so can't check pre-reqs. Oh, and temptest goes well with dervish if you are twf and can fit it in.

[gorfnab]

How about a Swift Hunter Dervish?
Here is a variant of a basic Dervish Swift Hunter Build I have had some minor success with.

Human
Scout 5/ Ranger (ACF Arcane Hunter, CM) 2/ Barbarian (ACF Whirling Frenzy, UA and ACF Spiritual Totem: Lion, CC) 1/ Dervish 9/ Scout 3
Feats:
1. Dodge, Mobility
3. Weapon Finesse
4. B: Combat Expertise
6. Weapon Focus Scimitar
7. B: Two Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. Swift Hunter
15. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18. *Open Feat*
20. B: Improved Skirmish

*Open Feat Options* - Improved Critical Scimitar (meh), Extra Rage (can be a nice boost, especially set to Whirling Frenzy), Elusive Target (negates Power Attackers), Combat Reflexes (extra attacks, somewhat situational depending on the game), Deadly Defense (combos with Elaborate Parry), Nemesis: Arcanists (always decent), or Flay Foe

Otherwise here is a Swashbuckler build I've used before as well. No Dervish levels though.

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Decisive Strike (PHBII) Monk - Carmendine Monk (CoV), Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense (CS), B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander (PHBII)
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Warblade
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura (ToB)
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit (PHBII)
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior (ToB)
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If flaws are available pick up EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv, pre-errata version if possible) or Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHBII) and Snap Kick (ToB) (may need to rearrange later feats). If traits are available pick up Cautious (UA).

The Monk and Swashbuckler levels (levels 1 through 5) can be switched around to taste. I personally like Swash 1/ Monk 2/ Swash 2

Items:
Vest of Defence
Broadblade Shortsword (if flaws are allowed) otherwise Rapier with the Defensive Surge enhancement.

[D4rkh0rus]

I would like to add a class that you might find interesting.
Often it is never mentioned but I find it a reasonably nice class that I always try to include in any build that has the skills to spare...

"Uncanny trickster" PRC from comp. Scoundrel.

for the low cost of 4 skill tricks (which you would probably get as combat ones for your build anyways) and a bunch of skills at 8 ranks (again, tumble, vbalance, etc)

you get more skill tricks, more usages out them, and a 2/3 progression on a class. Although it keeps the UT's skill points, and more importantly BaB

Now look at it this way. if, at level 10 you put the first lvl, at lvl 14 then at lvl 18... you could go from, for example, 20 rogue that gets 15 BaB at 20, to 19 rogue, that gets 16 BaB at 20, effectively Netting you a +1 to BaB for 1 lost class level.
Now, the lost class level is pretty harsh for 1 BaB (which makes it into +1 attack at 20), but I find it worth it.

Its good to ponder it. it gives 8 skills and has most of the agility/social/trapper skills as class skills.


Also... 3 free skill tricks and 3 skill tricks that you can use twice per encounter? not icing my friend. tasty, tasty cake dough, that you lick with your fingers as you watch the cake bake.

[Greenish]

Now look at it this way. if, at level 10 you put the first lvl, at lvl 14 then at lvl 18... you could go from, for example, 20 rogue that gets 15 BaB at 20, to 19 rogue, that gets 16 BaB at 20, effectively Netting you a +1 to BaB for 1 lost class level.
Now, the lost class level is pretty harsh for 1 BaB (which makes it into +1 attack at 20), but I find it worth it.But you'll lose all the lovely class features of rogue's 20th level!




:smalltongue:

[D4rkh0rus]

But you'll lose all the lovely class features of rogue's 20th level!




:smalltongue:
Clearly a Conundrum of irrevocable loss. but alas, sacrifices must be made in order to create a more capable fighting machine.