2 claw attacks (D&D3.5)

[olataro]

Hi guys, new to D&D (3.5) here.

I have a question regarding claw attacks. Let us assume we have a pair of claws thanks to using a draconic template.

I am a level 1 fighter with +1 BAB. So assuming i would like to attack with my claws......

Would the two attacks be:

+1/+1 or would i get

+1/-5

Or would the 2 claws be considered as attacking with 2 light weapons?

Hope you guys can help. =)

[Psyren]

+1/+1. A pair of claws counts as one primary attack (even though you're rolling/hitting twice - when you full-attack, anyway) and so gets your full BAB.

They both count as light weapons, like all natural attacks, but you take no TWF penalties and get to add your full strength bonus to damage (instead of half.)

[eggynack]

You can use a pair of claws as your primary weapon, so you'd get the +1/+1 version. The natural weapons section states that a primary weapon is defined by the creature's extra potency with that sort of weapon, rather than by the main hand/offhand system that defines ordinary weapons. Further, the section states, "When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon." For more evidence, see the stat blocks for various bears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBlack.htm), and in particular the fact that both claws get the benefit of full attack bonus. Also, your secondary attacks would be at -4, rather than -5, cause you subtract five from your normal attack bonus, which is +1.

[Darrin]

Would the two attacks be:

+1/+1 or would i get

+1/-5


By RAW (Rules As Written), the two claws from the Draconic template (Races of the Dragon) would be +1/-4. You have one primary claw and one secondary claw. The text *should* say you have a pair of claws, both of them primary, so it *should* be +1/+1. But the text doesn't say this. A sympathetic DM might handwave this for you.



Or would the 2 claws be considered as attacking with 2 light weapons?


All natural weapons are light weapons. If what you mean is "do I use the TWF rules?", then no, you don't. Natural weapons have their own rules, and can't be used with the TWF rules (there are a few exceptions, but they aren't worth going into right now).

[olataro]

THnx guys,

@eggynack: COuld you point me to the page where such rule is stated? Is it in the monster manual.

@darrin: Haha, true. But it did state "Claws" so i think it can be interpreted as having a pair of claws, no?

[eggynack]

Yeah, it's on page 312, under natural weapons.

[awa]

you have multiple "claws" in a single claw attack (unless your a mantis or something)

[eggynack]

you have multiple "claws" in a single claw attack (unless your a mantis or something)
I don't think that's accurate. The standard action claw attack is a single claw, which means that the claws can be independent of each other. I'm not even entirely sure what it would mean for there to be multiple claws in a single claw attack, though there are multiple claws in a single rake attack.

[Fax Celestis]

By RAW (Rules As Written), the two claws from the Draconic template (Races of the Dragon) would be +1/-4. You have one primary claw and one secondary claw. The text *should* say you have a pair of claws, both of them primary, so it *should* be +1/+1. But the text doesn't say this. A sympathetic DM might handwave this for you.

Doesn't matter: all natural attacks of the same type, regardless of source, are grouped together. So if you have two claws from the Draconic template, plus two more from girallon's blessing, and another four from being thri-kreen or something, they're all striking at the same attack bonus, as they are all natural attacks of the same type.

Throw on a bite, though, and that's a secondary natural attack. Make a manufactured weapon attack, and all those claws also drop to secondaries.

[awa]

you are forgetting that claw is a noun. Most creatures that "claw" things have multiple claws one for each finger typically.

[eggynack]

you are forgetting that claw is a noun. Most creatures that "claw" things have multiple claws one for each finger typically.
I don't think that claw attacks use multiple claws for separate attacks. It's just one per paw. That view is supported by stuff like girallon's blessing, which gives four clawed hands, and thus four claw attacks.

[Fax Celestis]

you are forgetting that claw is a noun. Most creatures that "claw" things have multiple claws one for each finger typically.

The game defines a "claw" as your definition, but a "claw attack" as an appendage that ends with talons, claws, or other sharp pointy things:

Claw or Talon
The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.

So when a creature attacks with a "claw attack", it means its swinging a fleshy meat-hook at you on the end of a pseudopod.

[Psyren]

Think of a claw attack like swinging a garden rake at somebody - it has multiple tines on it, but you're still only slashing at them with the one implement.

[awa]

@darrin: Haha, true. But it did state "Claws" so i think it can be interpreted as having a pair of claws, no?

Were not talking about a claw attack i'm saying that "claws" does not necessarily refer to multiple attacks because you can have multiple sharp pointy things on hand all of which are used in a single claw attack.

That's what my comment was referring to.

[danzibr]

Doesn't matter: all natural attacks of the same type, regardless of source, are grouped together. So if you have two claws from the Draconic template, plus two more from girallon's blessing, and another four from being thri-kreen or something, they're all striking at the same attack bonus, as they are all natural attacks of the same type.
Out of curiosity, where's this from?

[Fax Celestis]

Out of curiosity, where's this from?


Natural Weapons
Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.

Bite
The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.

Claw or Talon
The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.

Gore
The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.

Slap or Slam
The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.

Sting
The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.

Tentacle
The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.

SRD.

It's not very well delineated, but you can see examples with things like the girallon (Full Attack: 4 claws +12 melee (1d4+6) and bite +7 melee (1d8+3)), xill (Full Attack:2 short swords +5 melee (1d6+2/19-20, 1d6+1/19-20) and 2 claws +5 melee (1d4+1); or 4 claws +5 melee (1d4+2, 1d4+1); or 2 longbows +4 ranged (1d8/×3)), or arrow demon (Full Attack: 2 Large +1 composite longbows (+5 Str bonus) +14/+14/+9/+9 ranged (2d6+6/3) or 4 claws +15 melee (1d6+5)).

[danzibr]

Ahh. Well, thanks Fax. I read that same thing, but that's now I interpreted it. For the set business, I was thinking if you had 8 claws, say 4 from your race, 2 from a spell and 2 from whatever else, you wouldn't necessarily get all 8 as primary, but maybe just the 4 from your race, or just the 2 from the spell, or just the 2 from whatever else. I see either way being reasonable.

[awa]

i agree just because one monster get 4 claw attacks as a single set does not mean all claws are automatically part of a set.

[Captnq]

The problem is, they keep switching things around.

Lets say your claw attacks are two natural attacks. Lets say you graft on two more arms, each one counts as a natural attack.

Now, if you choose, any one can be the primary. Each secondary natural attacks is used once at -5, unless you have three natural attacks, then you can buy multiattack. Then it is -2. Regardless, if you make a full attack, you get all your available natural attacks, and you use natural BAB progression of iterative attacks on your primary.

Now lets mix it up a bit...

I Wield a sword in one on my grafted arms.

I attack using one of my claw attacks as primary. I get to use my other two natural attacks at -5, but can I use the sword? No. The sword is not a natural attack and I decided one of my claw attacks was the primary.

If I choose to do so, I get the two weapon fighting without a TWF feat penalty on all my attacks.

I would need to use the sword as my primary, I lose the natural attack I have with the arm that is holding the sword, but I get to use my full BAB with the sword for iterative attacks.

Now I use a Gnome Quickblade. It's only wielded when I'm attacking and not wielded when I'm not. Can I use that as my primary and still use the natural attack my arm comes with? Maybe.

It's up to your DM. By the writing of gnome quickblade, yes. By the writing of natural attacks, no. Check with him.

I choose to use elbow blades. If they are my primary, I can attack with all natural attacks, the elbow blades get full BAB.

I'm a monk. Again, attack with elbows primary, all natural attacks are secondary at -5.

Get it?

[olataro]

Read the book, looks like it says 2 claw attacks so i guessing it means we attack with both hands!

So another question here would be.....if i have skills such as :

a) Smite

b) combat manuevers such as burning blade


Do they stack with both claw attacks or only 1 claw attack?