Restricting a City to Alignment?

[kalos72]

So the players in my group are now contemplating the idea of restricting the city they are rebuilding to "non evil" alignments.

And by restricting I mean have active magics in place to detect and deter people from entering the city or staying in the city itself. There will be sweeps of "detect evil" and they will be hunted, detained and mind probed before expulsion, used as training fodder in the "arena" or put to death depending on their crimes and/or level of "evilness".

Suggestions for how to accomplish this are always welcome.


While I think that its a safe idea, what negatives are there to locking down a city based on alignment?

[Zweisteine]

BADBADBADBAD BAD IDEA!!!

Also, people who respond, let's NOT turn this into a big alignment debate, please.


This will not work out well, at least to start. It'll look a lot like a dictatorship, ordering random people executed to stay in power.

There are two problems at the base of this:
1. Evil people are not necessarily criminals.
2. Most NPCs do not see Alignments as a thing, for lack of a better word. (i.e. You can tell a commoner that his neighbor is evil, but he has been given no reason to hate that neighbor. Maybe some dislike and mistrust, but he doesn't necessarily see his neighbor as something that needs to be removed, or any different from himself.)
(3. Reason three is that alignment may or may not be objective and/or subjective, but implying either to be true would spark a debate that would leave the question unanswered.)

[QuintonBeck]

While the idea itself is decent enough and although a bit authoritarian could be considered Good, the proposed methods of dealing with any Evil types seems like they'll soon find themselves subject to a positive on the detect evil ping.

Rounding people up and torturing/killing/making them fight for fun and profit on account of being Evil, with no evidence to any misdoings they may have committed, seems pretty tyrannical and evil itself. I would think a place so hell bent on Good would try and convert any evil types, not destroy them. These aren't demons we're dealing with here, and as I said, they have no actual evidence of what they did/are doing that makes them evil so wholesale smashing seems out of order. That's just me though, your Good and my Good may vary.

As for methods I would assume you could make a trap of detect evil and have those deployed throughout the city at major thoroughfares and entrances/exits. A clever evil would learn how to bypass them so I suppose the next best thing would be adding in plenty of Paladins and telling them to not be stingy with their Detect Evils, and just let those boys and girls roam the streets randomly scanning people. It still seems a tad authoritarian, but it will probably find the evil. Until the evil folks all start getting lead lined long johns of course.

[Zweisteine]

Except that people will be enraged.

Remember that guy at work who was willing to report anyone and everyone's softest mistakes so he could get ahead? If the government "disappeared" him, you'd probably be upset. Sure, he wasn nice, but he didn't deserve to die, did he? He was evil; willing to hurt others for personal gain. In his case, there was no physical harm, and no ruining of careers, even, but his environment restricted him from acting in too evil a manner, because eventually that would hurt his career. Nobody likes a tattletale, right?


If there was a way to detect how evil someone was, that could work, but there is not.

Perhaps a better course of action would be to monitor evil people. If they don't do anything suspicious (as the above example), let them be. If they are criminals arrest them, and if they look like they might become criminals soon, keep an eye on them.


There are also rules in the Book of Exalted Deeds that allow for forced conversion to Good, but those rules aren't too reasonable. You could allow them, though, and let the PCs convert everyone evil away from it.

[Kazuel]

I think a good campaign hook would be the PCs stumble onto an abandoned city that imploded in on itself by scouring out the evil thus becoming evil and being scoured out.

[kalos72]

The idea here is to use the detect evil to identify people to check.

The mind probe will tell us what they did and why the detect evil labeled them as such.

Based on the severity of the crimes/acts that made the person "evil" - an appropriate punishment.

He killed his wife - public trial - possible death/banishment
He beats up his wife - public trial - possible banishment
He worships Asmodeus - torture for information then death

[Broken Crown]

Agree with the previous posters that summarily executing people based on their perceived level of evilness is arguably rather evil in itself. Exiling evil people from the city is less problematic, though as Zweisteine pointed out, people will probably still get upset.

If you have the resources to do it, covering the whole city with an Antipathy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antipathy.htm) effect would make virtually all of the Evil residents leave on their own, without having to hunt them down. Even if they make their saves, they won't enjoy living there.

Edit: "Torture for information"? There's another quick trip to the deep end of the alignment pool!

[JaronK]

Well, this sounds like a hellish environment where children are ripped from their parents because teenagers are kinda evil for a while, but okay.

You'll need Paladins spamming Detect Evil at every entrance to the city. Use divinations to find the closest evil person while in the center of the city. If you need, have a Binder with Zceryll spamming Summon Monster to get the Divas from Fiend Folio (Monastic or Movantic, I forget which) that can use divination, and use that to find any evil people near by.

To avoid fliers, build your city underground. Now you can guard the gates even better.

JaronK

[kalos72]

Wow.

I really dont want to take this down the "What makes it evil to find evil and destroy it" line...

So finding a criminal, giving him a PUBLIC trial and based on the severity of the crimes, punishing him is EVIL?

[QuintonBeck]

Public trial doesn't really negate the fact that you invaded his personal freedom by casting detect evil to start much less the fact that you then dragged him off to have his mind invaded so that you may decide what crimes to charge him with (assuming he's actually committed any crimes and isn't simply selfish and cruel within the extent of the law)

A trial generally means assembling evidence and levying it against the person to convince a judge or jury of their guilt, when the police have already invaded the fellows mind and forced him to tell them every bad thing he's done it isn't really a trial so much as a formality/charade after you've already decided his fate.

[Eldonauran]

If you have the resources to do it, covering the whole city with an Antipathy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antipathy.htm) effect would make virtually all of the Evil residents leave on their own, without having to hunt them down. Even if they make their saves, they won't enjoy living there.

This would be a good first step. Expulsion should be the default standard for minor evil infractions. A society that rejects the presence of the evil alignments is not going to be an 'all inclusive' or tolerant. This is going to rub some player's wrong if they can't shed their perceptions on real world morality.

You will be walking a slippery slope on the 'torture' and 'excecution' of really evil people. Good societies think torture is too extreme and most socities in the D&D morality system that practice torture 'for the good of all' tend to be neutral. Only evil societies embrace it.


Well, this sounds like a hellish environment where children are ripped from their parents because teenagers are kinda evil for a while, but okay.

This is brining opinion on 'real world alignment' into D&D and has no real basis for comparison. It seems to be invoking an emotional response that should be ignored. I've seen no rules on teenager's being 'kinda evil' for a while.

[Broken Crown]

So finding a criminal, giving him a PUBLIC trial and based on the severity of the crimes, punishing him is EVIL?
That's not really this issue. Not all people who detect as Evil are necessarily criminals; a lot of them are probably just selfish jerks. A system that assumes guilt based on no evidence is unlikely to produce a fair trial, especially if guilt needs to be manufactured in order to justify the systematic arrest and interrogation of large numbers of people.

That's leaving aside the whole issue of torture. In 3.5, it's totally unnecessary as an information-gathering technique, given that spells like Zone of Truth and Detect Thoughts exist as low as 2nd level. Thus, the only purpose of torture is the deliberate infliction of suffering, which is an Evil act.

[awa]

about 33% of humans are evil of one flavor or another.
Much less then 33% of a typical population have committed any real crimes. Thus most evil creatures must be law abiding citizens. The fact that many neutral people particularly chaotic neutral people are also criminals cuts into the number of evil criminal even further.

Thus your system is either going to appear completely arbitrary oppressing nearly 1/3 of the population for no reason or you will be forced to waste a tremendous about of resources watching 1/3 of your population as you have to keep checking them over and over to see if they have actually done anything evil.

Your city is going to look like a dysfunctional police state. If you are making it from scratch not many people will want to live there and if you are enforcing these on an existing population then you should start carrying lead sheets around because invading the privacy of others on the off chance they might have done something bad if not particularly good.

also if you resort to torture despite having mind-reading magics at your disposable then you are more evil then 99% of the people you are oppressing.
The same goes for creative executions like throwing them in arena for "training purposes".

[Craft (Cheese)]

Wow.

I really dont want to take this down the "What makes it evil to find evil and destroy it" line...

So finding a criminal, giving him a PUBLIC trial and based on the severity of the crimes, punishing him is EVIL?

I would assume that if someone pings Evil but the follow-up divinations don't reveal any crimes, they'll be left alone? That's just having a divination-enhanced law enforcement system. There might be ethical concerns about that too, as others have said, but that's completely different from "restricting the city to non-evil alignments."

Also, keep in mind that unless you're a cleric or something, you only ping on Detect Evil if you're 5 HD or greater. Also there's the fact that you can be guilty of a crime while still being Neutral (or even Good).

[kalos72]

I really didnt want this to go the "alignment fight" route as the 2nd poster was concerned with. Now I know why...

No one is going in and invading your mind...unless you are evil. If you are evil, you have done something that caused that... or have the capacity for it

"killing evil beings in order to prevent them doing further evil is not an evil act" from BoVD I believe.

[awa]

but being evil and committing evil act worthy of death are not the same thing.
A horrible racist who has never encountered the race he hates is evil but has never committed a crime killing him would be grossly unfair, and particularly if he kept his opinions to himself killing him would seem arbitrary, unfair and down right evil to his friends and family.

[Viros]

This would go over poorly in any society that values personal freedoms even slightly. Evil people are selfish and callous, but not inherently criminal. Just as a Good person might not be willing to sacrifice his own life to save another, an Evil person may not ever kill or steal in his whole life. Alignment indicates general inclination and past behaviors, but it doesn't actually control a person's actions. You could probably get away with persecuting Vile characters, but "Evil" encompasses too wide a variety of potentially benign behaviors--a modern CEO might be considered Evil for his cutthroat business practices without ever actually committing a crime.

[beforemath]

Wow.

I really dont want to take this down the "What makes it evil to find evil and destroy it" line...

So finding a criminal, giving him a PUBLIC trial and based on the severity of the crimes, punishing him is EVIL?

Scanning people and punishing them for "thought crimes" is quick way to attract a group of Chaotic Good freedom fighters to fight against your cause, especially if you're torturing people who haven't hurt anyone.

I'm not saying that it's a bad direction for your game to go (I like Law/Chaos alignment axis conflict); it's just unconventional for your PCs to be in the traditional villain role.

Plus, this city seems like it's just begging for a Lawful Evil caster with Undetectible Alignment to find his way into a position of power.

[Barstro]

I think this can be an amusing thing to try if you can stick to a few caveats;
1) This is NOT the modern world and does not have modern values.
2) People choose their alignments.

Ideas that bribery, swift "justice", and torture are inherently evil are relatively modern views. Chopping off a body part to prevent that person from stealing again and deterring others from doing it in the first place have a lot of historical basis on otherwise good societies.

Equal rights is even newer. Outsiders have often been thought of as less than civilized. The story of the Good Samaritan isn't a tale of someone who is good, it's the tale of an undesirable person who did good when the "good citizens" did nothing. Being against outsiders, in that time period, was not evil; it was just the way of things.

The thought of alignments tending towards evil due to age or maturity needs to be avoided. I'd argue that teenagers actually become more chaotic than evil. But, even then, they stay within their "normal" alignment.

Using spells and such to discourage evil from being there seems fine. Escalate as minimally as possible.

In the end, I think that particular city will still fail in its experiment.

[Barstro]

a modern CEO might be considered Evil for his cutthroat business practices without ever actually committing a crime.

Only if the gods or society consider that evil. If a society believes whole-heartedly in The Invisible Hand, then he is neutral at worst. One man's oppressive government is another man's Eden.

Frankly, step 1 in this city/universe would require black and white rules on what exactly defines Evil.

[Eldonauran]

"killing evil beings in order to prevent them doing further evil is not an evil act" from BoVD I believe.

I know you didn't want to get into an alignment dispute. I'll just say that while killing evil to prevent further evil is not an evil act, you need to be absolutely sure that the evil being is going to cause more evil before you go down that path.

There are evil creatures that perform no substancial evil acts. They can be evil by virtue of only their outlook on life and getting their jollies off the suffering of others, though they caused none of it themselves. These kind of people are deplorable but are not deserving of death.

[kalos72]

Again, the detection part is to help identify those with the pretense.

The Mind probe is to check to see if they have done anything to act on that pretense.

If not, your free to go. But now you know the city knows about you and is watching.

If yes, trial/punishment to fit the crime.

Remember I am not just randomly going to allow Mind Probes of everyone, there has to be good cause, the detect evil "ping".

And I seriously doubt a Chaotic GOOD group is going to take up arms against the city because it banished EVIL people who have committed EVIL acts.

[jedipilot24]

Read Dragonlance; the Kingpriest tried this and not only went paranoid and insane, but also wrecked the world after even the gods of Good said "Enough!"

[Eldonauran]

Only if the gods or society consider that evil. If a society believes whole-heartedly in The Invisible Hand, then he is neutral at worst. One man's oppressive government is another man's Eden.

Frankly, step 1 in this city/universe would require black and white rules on what exactly defines Evil.

D&D does have those rules. The gods and society have no say on what constitutes an evil or good act. What the character does might be acceptable to a society or a god, but it is the D&D universe itself that colors you good, evil, lawful and/or chaotic.

[kalos72]

I know you didn't want to get into an alignment dispute. I'll just say that while killing evil to prevent further evil is not an evil act, you need to be absolutely sure that the evil being is going to cause more evil before you go down that path.

There are evil creatures that perform no substancial evil acts. They can be evil by virtue of only their outlook on life and getting their jollies off the suffering of others, though they caused none of it themselves. These kind of people are deplorable but are not deserving of death.

Very true...it must be acted upon. You must have DONE something to get punished for. Being Evil in itself is not enough to do anything other then be known to the city guard/watch/government.

[kalos72]

Although, the Anitpathy suggestion leads to another...Sympathy "Good".

Cast a Sympathy spell over the city, and invite more and more good aligned people to come live there. The more good aligned, the less bad right?

[Killer Angel]

Well, in the outer planes, aligned cities are not so uncommon... or at least, there are cities favored by some kind of alignment, especially if those cities, have a portal connected to a particular plane... :smallwink:

[beforemath]

Again, the detection part is to help identify those with the pretense.

The Mind probe is to check to see if they have done anything to act on that pretense.

If not, your free to go. But now you know the city knows about you and is watching.

If yes, trial/punishment to fit the crime.

Remember I am not just randomly going to allow Mind Probes of everyone, there has to be good cause, the detect evil "ping".

And I seriously doubt a Chaotic GOOD group is going to take up arms against the city because it banished EVIL people who have committed EVIL acts.

1. Alignment is an abstract concept in D&D and arresting/torturing/killing people who have "a capacity for wrongdoing" is going to run afoul of the type of people who prize freedom and "hate it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do."

2. The rhetoric that you don't have anything to worry about if you're not doing anything wrong doesn't tend to go over well to all groups of people.

3. Anything that comes off as government corruption, especially to those people who don't understand magic well, would probably be reacted to poorly.

4. There's always the bandwagon argument (by those who do understand magic) that people with a chaotic alignment (people more prone to not observing laws) are next in line as thought-criminals.


That being said, I think this is a fine idea with many possibilities for adventure hooks that your players seem to be into. Sounds like fun games ahead.

[infomatic]

And I seriously doubt a Chaotic GOOD group is going to take up arms against the city because it banished EVIL people who have committed EVIL acts.

Of course they would, if they value the freedom of choosing to be good, over the being good itself. Civil libertarians live for this sort of stuff; they're going to be all up in your business, day and night.

The city-wide Antipathy spell aside, It's a ridiculous, self-defeating idea. So go right ahead.

[Jakodee]

First off, you will kill people for worshipping asmodeus. That is very evil as the only reason they are killed is because they have a religion you do not like. Just because the god is evil dose not mean the followers are. A greedy merchant, hendoistic prince, and domineering offical may be evil, but thier crimes are small and probably legal. Frankly the idea of torture and gladiatorial combat would probably change your alighnment.

[kalos72]

Torture might be a stretch, unless the person has performed heinous evil acts MAYBE.

Speaking of Dragonlance, isn't there some history where the Knights of Solamnia once used the Orbs to kill dragons but later knights thought it was "dishonorable" and stopped?

Fighting evil is never an evil thing, if done for the right reasons. Slippery slope I know...ask a Paladin.

[JaronK]

This is brining opinion on 'real world alignment' into D&D and has no real basis for comparison. It seems to be invoking an emotional response that should be ignored. I've seen no rules on teenager's being 'kinda evil' for a while.

Actually, the DMG says 50% of random NPCs in a normal city are evil, so it's quite likely some kid's just going to be kinda evil. Not a horrible murderer, but kinda evil. So we're tearing families apart here with this system.

Honestly this sort of thing sounds like something one of my characters would do... but he's intentionally one of those "evil guys who thinks he's good" types, ala Dr Doom.

JaronK

[3WhiteFox3]

It's important to note that Detect Evil won't work very well in this situation. Detect Evil can only detect creatures that have 10 or more hit dice (unless they are Clerics, Undead or Evil Outstiders). So, at best you'll only detect high-level or supernaturally evil beings. Which restricts the amount of 'normal' people that will be harmed by this system.

[kalos72]

Its says anything under 10 HD provides a "faint" aura...but still gets noticed.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

And again, evil only gets your looked at. DOING evil gets you punished....

RIF people. :(

[Scow2]

First off, you will kill people for worshipping asmodeus. That is very evil as the only reason they are killed is because they have a religion you do not like. Just because the god is evil dose not mean the followers are. A greedy merchant, hendoistic prince, and domineering offical may be evil, but thier crimes are small and probably legal. Frankly the idea of torture and gladiatorial combat would probably change your alighnment.
Faith without works is like a song you can't sing: It's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine. If the worshippers of Asmodeus aren't evil, then they aren't detected/persecuted. If they are evil, it means they're acting on the tenents of their faith, which are incompatible with the society.

If you're Evil in a city like this, the best thing you can do for yourself and everyone else is get the hell out and don't come back. Cities don't have to abide by Geek Social Fallacies.

Furthermore, while 1-in-3 people may be evil globally, in a city like this, the ratio is 0-in-(Insert population here). The only people getting 'oppressed' are those who deserve it - You don't get pinged as evil unless you chose to advance the cause of Evil in the material plane. By being Evil, a person is declaring themselves a soldier in the service of the lower planes.

If the city bans Evil, the crimes committed by a domineering official, greedy merchant, or hedonistic prince ARE illegal in spirit and letter of the law of this city, and the city is better off without them. In fact, Evil officials are a plague on the city, because they subvert the spirit of the laws from within, and corrupt the concept of fairness.

Law and Good are not the same thing.

Actually, the DMG says 50% of random NPCs in a normal city are evil, so it's quite likely some kid's just going to be kinda evil. Not a horrible murderer, but kinda evil. So we're tearing families apart here with this system.

Honestly this sort of thing sounds like something one of my characters would do... but he's intentionally one of those "evil guys who thinks he's good" types, ala Dr Doom.

JaronKIt doesn't say 50% of the random NPCs in a normal city are evil - only that 50% of the adventurers a Party will have meaningful random encounters with are evil.

And this isn't a normal city, so that entire point is moot.

[MonochromeTiger]

nope, segregation on threat of brain-scanning to learn your every secret or death in an arena for the amusement of the masses can't POSSIBLY be a bad idea for a good aligned group.. please by all means implement it, I want to read about the confused and upset looks on their faces when they get hit by their own system after dooming a large portion of the populace (including family and friends of those who live in the city) to being exported or slain over something only someone with a specific spell or class feature can verify.

[Scow2]

Alignment isn't like skin color, gender, or place of birth. You can change it. If you're being hit by the anti-evil laws, it's your own damn fault because you're an *******. Be less of a **** and you won't have any problems (Frankly, I'm against the mind-probing. Be Nonevil or Go To Hell all the way - it's not hard to pull yourself up to Neutral)

[hamishspence]

it's not hard to pull yourself up to Neutral)

DMG take on it:

(after Chaotic Evil NPC, sent to infiltrate party, adventures beside them, starts envying their camaraderie, and witnesses the self-sacrifice of one)

"The NPC is so moved that he repents, casting aside his own evil ways (and his mission). He becomes chaotic neutral"

[MonochromeTiger]

Alignment isn't like skin color, gender, or place of birth. You can change it. If you're being hit by the anti-evil laws, it's your own damn fault because you're an *******. Be less of a **** and you won't have any problems (Frankly, I'm against the mind-probing. Be Nonevil or Go To Hell all the way - it's not hard to pull yourself up to Neutral)

bias against an alignment is still bias. setting up widespread laws specifically to keep that alignment out is still segregation. the results proposed in the first post which included what is essentially a complete removal of privacy and threats of death for something subjective are closer to evil than most of their victims likely would be.

[beforemath]

The only people getting 'oppressed' are those who deserve it - You don't get pinged as evil unless you chose to advance the cause of Evil in the material plane. By being Evil, a person is declaring themselves a soldier in the service of the lower planes.


.

Except that evil alignment isn't necessarily dedication to upholding the tenents of evil or sympathy towards the lower plains; it's just an abstraction of personal philosophy. You can be evil without being a demon-worshiping murder-sprite.

What's happening is that guards are (seemingly) randomly pulling you aside under the justification that you're a bad person and incarcerating you until you can be mind-raped. And they say they're doing it for your own good.

Of course, since the DM is on board, the citizens will react to it in a "the city is safer since the prisons are full" fashion instead of a frightened " it could be me next" fashion, so the argument is really moot...

[kalos72]

Again, you only get "probed" if your pinged evil. And you only get punished if you have committed evil acts.

Its not biased. Anyone pinged evil gets probed and get punished accordingly. Biased would be NOT probing the guards or merchants while still probing the population.

People need to read the whole discussion before chiming in... :/

[beforemath]

Again, you only get "probed" if your pinged evil. And you only get punished if you have committed evil acts.

Its not biased. Anyone pinged evil gets probed and get punished accordingly. Biased would be NOT probing the guards or merchants while still probing the population.

People need to read the whole discussion before chiming in... :/

You'll want to make sure that every citizen takes at least one rank of spellcraft so they'll understand how this works. You might also want to make alignment concealing devices/spells illegal, enforced by confiscating and examining all books and magic items.

[infomatic]

Anyone evil gets probed

You need to put that on your city seal.

Personally, I couldn't count to 10 before I sent in some Chaotic Neutral wizard to start casting Moral Facade (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-champion--57/moral-facade--591/) everywhere, just to screw with things. So then the guards are hauling off the honorable head of the merchant guild to the probulator, only to find — hm, we've made a mistake.

And ruined an innocent man's reputation, because as everyone in the city knows, only the Evil get probed.

Anyway, it's apparent that you don't have the same sort of problems with the idea that the rest of the posters seem to — which leaves the question: How are you, as the DM, going to challenge your players with this? Perfectly safe, stable and morally righteous police states, where all dissent has been either banished, killed or probed out of existence, aren't exactly rip-roaring sources of adventure.*


* Except for Chaotic Neutral Wizards

[MonochromeTiger]

Again, you only get "probed" if your pinged evil. And you only get punished if you have committed evil acts.

Its not biased. Anyone pinged evil gets probed and get punished accordingly. Biased would be NOT probing the guards or merchants while still probing the population.

People need to read the whole discussion before chiming in... :/

I read the conversation but I don't see how specifically targeting one alignment and bringing in everyone who shows as it to be probed isn't biased. and what about the good and neutral aligned criminals? you can have a good aligned thief who takes from the rich and gives to an orphanage and it's still crime, just for a non selfish reason. you could have someone trying to be a vigilante for crimes the guards miss and not pinging as evil but they're still going out to kill people.

a lack of bias would be probing everyone regardless of alignment and even that falls under police state which is generally seen as a bad thing.

[Scow2]

Except that evil alignment isn't necessarily dedication to upholding the tenents of evil or sympathy towards the lower plains; it's just an abstraction of personal philosophy. You can be evil without being a demon-worshiping murder-sprite.Even if do not pay even lip service to demons and other fiends, by engaging in evil acts and thoughts you are doing their work on the mortal world.


bias against an alignment is still bias. setting up widespread laws specifically to keep that alignment out is still segregation. the results proposed in the first post which included what is essentially a complete removal of privacy and threats of death for something subjective are closer to evil than most of their victims likely would be.When the thing you're biased against is "Being a ****", the term loses all relevant meaning, and you're jumping into the deep end of Geek Social Fallacies. There is absolutely no reason to tolerate Evil - It is not like skin color or


You'll want to make sure that every citizen takes at least one rank of spellcraft so they'll understand how this works. You might also want to make alignment concealing devices/spells illegal, enforced by confiscating and examining all books and magic items.Public Education works wonders. I'm sure most people here know what a speed limit is and how it works, or what a red octagonal sign means, or what those flashy blue-and-red-lights on the car following you mean. It doesn't even require as much trust in the law officers as modern law officers do, since it's extremely unlikely that an officer in a No Evil society is merely a thug in uniform (Law enforcement has even more stringent and unsubvertable processes for ensuring Good intent than mere citizenship does), while it's extremely possible to get a Thug-In-Uniform in the real world (The local PD in the city next to the town I live in is worse than the average gang).


With all this said, I do not like the approach used by the OP, because it's needlessly invasive and overly punitive.


I read the conversation but I don't see how specifically targeting one alignment and bringing in everyone who shows as it to be probed isn't biased. and what about the good and neutral aligned criminals? you can have a good aligned thief who takes from the rich and gives to an orphanage and it's still crime, just for a non selfish reason. you could have someone trying to be a vigilante for crimes the guards miss and not pinging as evil but they're still going out to kill people.What makes it a crime? This is a new city and culture being re-built from the foundation up. Or, because they know the perpetrator is Not A ****, they can give him a fair and just punishment fitting the crime in light of the person's moral character, instead of assuming and treating him like a monstrous psychopath to be locked up for years. In fact, it makes the city a MUCH better place for those who aren't out to make it a worse place for everyone else.


a lack of bias would be probing everyone regardless of alignment and even that falls under police state which is generally seen as a bad thing.Alignment is not skin color or gender. You do not have the right to be a ****. If you are a ****, stop being one, and then enjoy your stay in the city with everyone else enjoying their stay in the city and not being a **** about it.

[kalos72]

I tend to think along the "ends justify the means" more so then most...so i asked for advice/suggestions.

The possible manipulation is a valid concern. As is the corruption and perception of a totalitarianism regine.

The idea that punishing someone for not just being of evil but performing evil deeds is EVIL in itself I cannot understand. Or biased; they broke the law...and should get punished.

From a "crime prevention" stand point...how can you use magic/psionics to help better enforce your laws/morals then?

The attempt here was to find a way to ensure a safe secure "good" city. one "good" people will want to live in...eradicating evil seemed like the most direct route.

[MonochromeTiger]

When the thing you're biased against is "Being a ****", the term loses all relevant meaning, and you're jumping into the deep end of Geek Social Fallacies. There is absolutely no reason to tolerate Evil - It is not like skin color or


some of my friends are complete jerks sometimes, does that mean I'm a horrible person for being friends with them? someone is selfish because they were taught to be that way growing up, does that mean I should hate them? EVERYONE has some fault that makes them look bad, D&D is one of the things that takes those faults and puts a big neon red "evil" sign over them and makes us feel justified in treating them like they're trying to tear the world apart.

if I were looking at it from a purely mechanical view yeah sure evil being gone from a society would be a goal and the means mentioned here would reach it.. but I'm not looking at it from a mechanical view, I'm looking at it from a personal one where personality, cause, and circumstances all have an effect. this has a chance of catching a murderer sure but it also paints everyone dragged in in a bad light, causes others to distrust them for something that may not be nearly bad enough to justify it, and falls under "well they were incarcerated because they looked suspicious" which IS considered a terrible reason.

but hey if being biased against "being a jerk" is fully justified I'm sure we can resort to jerkish means to solve it without worrying..

[Malroth]

This sounds like a wonderful plan for a Devil with undetectable alignment to pull off to corrupt thousands of souls. The local populace will be conditioned by the "good guys" to welcome and appreciate the arbirtary torture, mindrape and executions of their neighbors for the "public good" while completely discouraging the good tennants of compasion, mercy and fairness that define goood.



I tend to think along the "ends justify the means" more so then most...so i asked for advice/suggestions.

The possible manipulation is a valid concern. As is the corruption and perception of a totalitarianism regine.

The idea that punishing someone for not just being of evil but performing evil deeds is EVIL in itself I cannot understand. Or biased; they broke the law...and should get punished.

From a "crime prevention" stand point...how can you use magic/psionics to help better enforce your laws/morals then?

The attempt here was to find a way to ensure a safe secure "good" city. one "good" people will want to live in...eradicating evil seemed like the most direct route.


To be good is to NEVER have the ends justify the means, your means must justify themselves.

even thinking that The segragation and mindrape of 50% of your population on the arbritary whims of a 1st lv spell to catch 1% who have committed actual crimes is a good idea definately EVIL

From a "crime prevention" standpoint you can't really do anything and still keep the "good" hat. You solve the crimes as they happen and create conditions where it is easier and more profitable to get a good job than it is to kill someone and take their stuff.

[Scow2]

I'd suggest "Antipathy for Evil" in addition to Detect Evil sweeps - people who detect as Evil are re-educated (This only works in a world with absolute morality) or told to take a hike. "Mind Probe" is probably way too invasive - Instead, if you turn someone away, give them pamphlets espousing Good, so they know what ideas they need to conform to, of their own volition. For anyone who doesn't like it? Well... nobody's forcing them to live there.

The advantage of a city that has such a hardline stance against Evil within its borders is that the rest of the justice system can actually be just, and operate on the principal of "The perpetrator is not merely not a complete monster, but a decent person all around".

[Dread_Head]

The idea that punishing someone for not just being of evil but performing evil deeds is EVIL in itself I cannot understand. Or biased; they broke the law...and should get punished.



It's the way you were suggesting punishing them for being evil, by torturing them or forcing them into blood sports which are both decidedly evil things even if you're perpetrating them against evil creatures.

And the bias thing is that as MonochromeTiger said you're profiling them on having the evil alignment and ignoring the fact that there could be criminals with non evil alignments. Evil is not the only non lawful alignment. Indeed LE are much less likely to commit crimes than CG, would they be preferred inhabitants of your city?

[Scow2]

some of my friends are complete jerks sometimes, does that mean I'm a horrible person for being friends with them? someone is selfish because they were taught to be that way growing up, does that mean I should hate them? EVERYONE has some fault that makes them look bad, D&D is one of the things that takes those faults and puts a big neon red "evil" sign over them and makes us feel justified in treating them like they're trying to tear the world apart.Not a horrible person for being friends with them, but you should encourage them to act better. They had a rough life growing up? Here's a chance for them to change it.


if I were looking at it from a purely mechanical view yeah sure evil being gone from a society would be a goal and the means mentioned here would reach it.. but I'm not looking at it from a mechanical view, I'm looking at it from a personal one where personality, cause, and circumstances all have an effect. this has a chance of catching a murderer sure but it also paints everyone dragged in in a bad light, causes others to distrust them for something that may not be nearly bad enough to justify it, and falls under "well they were incarcerated because they looked suspicious" which IS considered a terrible reason.

but hey if being biased against "being a jerk" is fully justified I'm sure we can resort to jerkish means to solve it without worrying..I have expressed disapproval of the methods the OP intends to use. "I'm an ass because of how I grew up!" is not a valid defense - there are far more people out there who have had even worse upbringings and decide to do the right thing anyway.
And the bias thing is that as MonochromeTiger said you're profiling them on having the evil alignment and ignoring the fact that there could be criminals with non evil alignments. Evil is not the only non lawful alignment. Indeed LE are much less likely to commit crimes than CG, would they be preferred inhabitants of your city?I know I'd rather have Sam Starfall as a resident in my city than President of Paperclips Kornada.

[kalos72]

It's the way you were suggesting punishing them for being evil, by torturing them or forcing them into blood sports which are both decidedly evil things even if you're perpetrating them against evil creatures.

And the bias thing is that as MonochromeTiger said you're profiling them on having the evil alignment and ignoring the fact that there could be criminals with non evil alignments. Evil is not the only non lawful alignment. Indeed LE are much less likely to commit crimes than CG, would they be preferred inhabitants of your city?

Criminal and Evil are two different things. We have laws and police forces to deal with straight criminals. How else do you deal with evil?

Torture of a devil worshipper to find out who else is in the cult performing other evil deeds/acts? Might be too much...but again I tend towards a "ends justify the means".

As for the CG vs LE reference, crimes aren't necessarily evil. Two different types of "policing" here...

[Scow2]

Criminal and Evil are two different things. We have laws and police forces to deal with straight criminals. How else do you deal with evil?

Torture of a devil worshipper to find out who else is in the cult performing other evil deeds/acts? Might be too much...but again I tend towards a "ends justify the means".

As for the CG vs LE reference, crimes aren't necessarily evil. Two different types of "policing" here...If you think torture works, you're getting kicked out on your ass by your own city. Torture flat-out doesn't work, especially if you're dealing with a real dooms-day cultist. Good-aligned doomsday cultists sing Mahalia Jackson and variants at you. Evil-aligned ones sing backward rock songs - but that's all you get out of them.

[kalos72]

Are there other...less intrusive ways of finding out ones motives or morals perhaps? Detect Aura or something? Psionics?

There was a thought early on to send the groups psionic character to the city to "scout" and try and determine the whos who and such...

[Dread_Head]

Criminal and Evil are two different things. We have laws and police forces to deal with straight criminals. How else do you deal with evil?

Torture of a devil worshipper to find out who else is in the cult performing other evil deeds/acts? Might be too much...but again I tend towards a "ends justify the means".

As for the CG vs LE reference, crimes aren't necessarily evil. Two different types of "policing" here...

If the point of this restriction isn't to catch crime then what is it's point? The law and police forces can deal with the criminals across the alignment spectrum and the law abiding evil citizens can be left to their own devices without being harassed. Having Evil creatures in a city shouldn't actually matter as long as their not practising harmful evil.

The torture becomes completely unnecessary though when you have magical methods of interrogation that will just pull the information out of the cultists mind. Probably in a much shorter time as well.

Indeed and being evil isn't necessarily a crime no matter how many badly played paladins would try to make it one. This system will simply impinge the rights of 33% of the population for having a certain moral outlook. Be it that they are simply jerks or that they are selfish or similar they aren't actually harming anyone for having these morals so why should they be forced out of your attempt at a utopia?

[Humble Master]

While this city would be an interesting adventure hook for characters it would not be any kind of utopia. Basically, you are selectively investigating 33% of the population with some pretty invasive methods. Moreover, you are selecting these people based on their outlook in life and saying: "Be a nice, charitable person in your heart or get out of our city." There can be tons of Evil people in a city but as long as they aren't doing any kind of crime they really aren't a problem.


Are there other...less intrusive ways of finding out ones motives or morals perhaps? Detect Aura or something? Psionics?

There was a thought early on to send the groups psionic character to the city to "scout" and try and determine the whos who and such...You are asking if there is a less intrusive way to find out someone's outlook on life. There isn't really a nonintrusive way to do it because you will find out by either:
A. Reading their mind in some fashion which is rather intrusive.
B. Them telling you I a Zone of Truth. Which they probably would not do unless coerced in some manner because they know if they say that they are Evil they will be banished.
Edit: C. I guess you could also spy on them in their private life and then extrapolate their motives from that. However, this method is both sloppy and intrusive.

And I will restate that this does not mean the characters should not build this city. It would create a very interesting dystopia that the characters could latter need to come and destroy.

Also, this city should totally be named Miko-opolis.:miko:

[JaronK]

Torture doesn't work anywhere, and this is a world with magical compulsion. Why torture when you can charm?

JaronK

[MonochromeTiger]

If you think torture works, you're getting kicked out on your ass by your own city. Torture flat-out doesn't work, especially if you're dealing with a real dooms-day cultist. Good-aligned doomsday cultists sing Mahalia Jackson and variants at you. Evil-aligned ones sing backward rock songs - but that's all you get out of them.

it SOMETIMES works.. just not as a good aligned tactic. and yeah doomsday cults aren't likely to yield a result since they're PLANNING to get themselves killed (often involving a fun party with lots of mutilation and pin the poisoned dagger on the fellow cultist). also scow I haven't been targeting you with these quotes you're just the more vocal of the anti-evil side of this, not personal. anyway torture can yield results, it can give viable information, but it burns bridges for information gathering in a positive manner from that person and has as much chance of failing as a bribe or seduction, EVERY means of getting information from an enemy risks being told a lie or led to a trap instead of getting something useful.

kalos motives and motivations all fall under personal information, which in turn puts means of gaining access to them without being told into the "intrusive" column. admittedly getting general intent is less intrusive than actively reading their thoughts and memories and getting their every action out of their brain...but that's not saying a whole bunch because tying them to a chair and asking them "are you a mean person" over and over until they say yes is also less intrusive than reading their mind.

[kalos72]

Fair enough, I can concede the torture part might be a bit too far. :)

What about other cities...like Myth Drannor and its outright attack on orcs,goblins,ogres, hobgoblins, drow, duergar trying to enter the city?

I do really like the Antipathy Evil path...with a VERY well paid city guard wearing Mark of Justices and having nightly integrity checks...perhaps a psionic spy ring?

Hehe...

[QuintonBeck]

I tend to think along the "ends justify the means" more so then most...so i asked for advice/suggestions.

The possible manipulation is a valid concern. As is the corruption and perception of a totalitarianism regine.

The idea that punishing someone for not just being of evil but performing evil deeds is EVIL in itself I cannot understand. Or biased; they broke the law...and should get punished.

From a "crime prevention" stand point...how can you use magic/psionics to help better enforce your laws/morals then?

The attempt here was to find a way to ensure a safe secure "good" city. one "good" people will want to live in...eradicating evil seemed like the most direct route.

It's not punishing evil people for committing crimes that I have a problem with, its the way in which you propose going about discovering their guilt. If you had a dedicated and well trained police group that monitored the city and caught the perpetrator committing a crime I wouldn't have a problem with it but as it is Detecting, Detaining, Invading their mind, and then sentencing. It just strikes me as wrong.

And as other posters have said, evil folks aren't the only ones who commit crimes, the general route won't work on them, you'll have to enforce regular style which seems unfair to the evil types who are auto tagged.

To be fair I can actually see the other side, yes in a D&D world where morality is objective and defined identifying those within the evil spectrum and getting rid of them is a good thing and the method works. Torture I don't think ever falls within the realm of good and I don't think forcing them to fight in an arena is good either, but banishment or rehabilitation would be fair game.

Yet the idea of invading a person's mind based on a magical reading strikes me as wonky even though as written it would work perfectly and those who are evil (in a world where evil is extremely objective and carries an older edition type meaning implying an alignment with the fouler planes in some extend) ought to be dealt with but the idea of invading everyone's privacy in order to find out the troublemakers, then stripping their rights completely to determine whether they're guilty, just strikes me as not all that good. Good should tolerate and respect all life, even evil, hauling them off and interrogating them based on a magical reading is definitely Lawful but I'm unsure how Good it is.

Perhaps a slightly less unsavory method would be relegating those who pinged evil to simply being monitored rather than dragged off. Then, if they commit a crime and are caught they're punished rather than caught, scanned for past criminal activity, and sentenced. It still rings of paranoia inducing police terror but at least people aren't being pulled from the streets.

[Scow2]

While this city would be an interesting adventure hook for characters it would not be any kind of utopia. Basically, you are selectively investigating 33% of the population with some pretty invasive methods. Moreover, you are selecting these people based on their outlook in life and saying: "Be a nice, charitable person in your heart or get out of our city." There can be tons of Evil people in a city but as long as they aren't doing any kind of crime they really aren't a problem.Actually, the evil people in your city ARE a problem. Maybe not to the big deal, but they are to the nonevil populations that have to deal with them. Just because you're conditioned to ignore a problem that doesn't affect you doesn't mean it's not a problem to others.


You are asking if there is a less intrusive way to find out someone's outlook on life. There isn't really a nonintrusive way to do it because you will find out by either:
A. Reading their mind in some fashion which is rather intrusive.
B. Them telling you. Which they probably would not do unless coerced in some manner because they know if they say that they are Evil they will be banished.

And I will restate that this does not mean the characters should not build this city. It would create a very interesting dystopia that the characters could latter need to come and destroy.

Also, this city should totally be named Miko-opolis.:miko:It's not a dystopia.

Detect Evil does not read minds. Mind-reading can be an option if people are not sure where their moral failings are after reading "How to not be Evil for Dummies". Because the people entrusted with the invasive processes are Good, they can be trusted to not abuse their power and authority to malicious ends. Those uncomfortable with being mind-read would be able to still be free to figure it out, but live elsewhere until they qualify. (The city does need a way to handle pentitants who want in but fail to meet the alignment requirement, that doesn't put people seeking entry to the city at risk.)


If the point of this restriction isn't to catch crime then what is it's point? The law and police forces can deal with the criminals across the alignment spectrum and the law abiding evil citizens can be left to their own devices without being harassed. Having Evil creatures in a city shouldn't actually matter as long as their not practising harmful evil.There is no such thing as nonharmful evil. Evil is by definition harmful. If nobody's getting harmed, there's no way it can be evil.

Evil is a far greater threat to society than Chaos ever could be - chaos brings enjoyable distraction and entertainment to life. Evil just brings misery and suffering. Also, there's nothing more satisfying than being able to shut down Evil by ignoring all the "legal" protections that they throw up around themselves.


Of course, all this only works in a world with absolute morality. The real world DOESN'T have absolute, verifiable morality in it.

[hamishspence]

Because the people entrusted with the invasive processes are Good, they can be trusted to not abuse their power and authority to malicious ends.

Good people are still corruptible.

And there's ways to detect as Good without actually being so.

[awa]

the other problem with scan anyone who pings evil is they don't stop being evil once you have scanned them so that means you need to keep scanning them over and over harassing them there entire lives wasting vast amounts of resources on a law abiding citizen. he wont consider himself evil and neither will his friends and family you will just be that arbitrary jerk who keep harassing there friends and family.

So you will have a poor city because merchants wont come there due to the fact that 1/3 will be harassed or denied entry every time they try and visit and you keep wasting resources on punishing thought crimes.

the city will have poor relation with all it's neighbors because you harass 1/3 of all diplomats that try and interact with the city.

It will be an unhappy city because 1/3 of all children will suffer persecution all there lives (persecution rarely makes people like there persecutors) or be exiled breaking apart families and spreading hate for the government and this holier then thou jerks who broke up there family.

Clearly this will be an efficient form of goverment

[hamishspence]

I think the idea is supposed to be that if every parent in the city is Neutral or Good, the chance of them raising children who reach adulthood and gain an Evil alignment is not 1/3, it's more like 1/10 or less.

Don't know if that's reasonable though.

[kalos72]

Ok the effects on the economy I didnt think of thats a valid concern....to a point. I could just be ok with no evil merchants....or make a merchant area or something.

This magical 33% number is just silly to me...its an arbitrary number with no logical, documented link to City of Neverwinter.

Once an "evil" person is detected, he is documented. Perhaps he gets a choice, submit to the Mind Probe or leave town. If probed and no evil acts are found, he is just documented as such. Maybe once every 6 months he gets a visit from the Mind Probe peoples...just to make sure.

And remember, this is a city that is being rebuilt and repopulated so this will have more impact on the new people coming then the ones currently there.

But still of all the options I THINK the Antipathy tied with a strong vigilant police worse might work best.

[Scow2]

the other problem with scan anyone who pings evil is they don't stop being evil once you have scanned them so that means you need to keep scanning them over and over harassing them there entire lives wasting vast amounts of resources on a law abiding citizen. he wont consider himself evil and neither will his friends and family you will just be that arbitrary jerk who keep harassing there friends and family.

So you will have a poor city because merchants wont come there due to the fact that 1/3 will be harassed or denied entry every time they try and visit and you keep wasting resources on punishing thought crimes.On the other hand, merchants WILL come because 2/3rds of them know the people are honest, won't try to swindle them, and won't stab them during haggling.


the city will have poor relation with all it's neighbors because you harass 1/3 of all diplomats that try and interact with the city.Only if that city sends Evil-Aligned diplomats.. and any place that tries to pull a stunt like that deserves to have Paladins knocking down its walls. Other places would want to flock to it because of the security enforced through intent and spirit instead of draconian litigation and byzantine loopholes and laws.


It will be an unhappy city because 1/3 of all children will suffer persecution all there lives (persecution rarely makes people like there persecutors) or be exiled breaking apart families and spreading hate for the government and this holier then thou jerks who broke up there family.Children do not follow the same laws as adults in any nation or society. These laws would actually allow 'problem children' to be recognized and get the help they need, and pressured into being Good by positive peer and social pressure (And there won't be 'protection of minors' for those who try to rape, mug, and assault an elderly woman having a seizure - and yes, I have been unfortunate enough to see that happen).


I think the idea is supposed to be that if every parent in the city is Neutral or Good, the chance of them raising children who reach adulthood and gain an Evil alignment is not 1/3, it's more like 1/10 or less.

Don't know if that's reasonable though.Yeah it is. The 1/3rd is across global population, not local. For every hive of scum and villainy where only one in 10 people are remotely decent, there's a "City of Light" where only 1 in 10 people are close to being Evil.

[Dread_Head]

There is no such thing as nonharmful evil. Evil is by definition harmful. If nobody's getting harmed, there's no way it can be evil.



Say you have a member of a barbarian tribe, One of his beliefs is that the sacrifice of a virgin will bring success to the tribe. He is too young to ever participate in the rite before he ends up moving to the city. Being a Lawful type he obeys the law and doesn't sacrifice a virgin. He is never particularly successful in the city and reasons that this is because he never sacrificed a virgin but he muddles on obeying the law anyway.

His belief that sacrificing virgins is right and proper means he definitely pings as evil however he has never acted upon it and is otherwise a generally decentish guy. Is this persons evil harmful? I would say no because he never acts upon it. This is a pretty extreme case but can be extrapolated to some people who would have evil alignments

Note: I find this view abhorrent and it is a completely evil thing to think, but since he's never going to act on it is it actually harmful? He would be being persecuted for thought crime which is generally associated with dystopias...

[Werephilosopher]

Detect Evil does not read minds. Mind-reading can be an option if people are not sure where their moral failings are after reading "How to not be Evil for Dummies". Because the people entrusted with the invasive processes are Good, they can be trusted to not abuse their power and authority to malicious ends. Those uncomfortable with being mind-read would be able to still be free to figure it out, but live elsewhere until they qualify. (The city does need a way to handle pentitants who want in but fail to meet the alignment requirement, that doesn't put people seeking entry to the city at risk.)

How Good someone is is irrelevant to whether it's ok to let them forcefully probe the minds of people who have "pretense" for doing bad stuff. That's an incredible and unreasonable violation of personal privacy. Maybe understandable if someone won't tell you where they hid the bomb beneath the orphanage, but still immoral- there's no way this is justifiable on random chaps you drag off the street.


There is no such thing as nonharmful evil. Evil is by definition harmful. If nobody's getting harmed, there's no way it can be evil.

A worshiper of Scahrossar sits in his sealed vault full of food, water and knives. He never leaves, because he has everything he needs to live in his vault. He just spends his time slicing himself up. Is he evil? yes; does it matter? No- the only person being harmed by his evil is himself.


Evil is a far greater threat to society than Chaos ever could be - chaos brings enjoyable distraction and entertainment to life. Evil just brings misery and suffering. Also, there's nothing more satisfying than being able to shut down Evil by ignoring all the "legal" protections that they throw up around themselves.

Of course it's satisfying to be able to just punch a loud-mouth jerk repeatedly without fear of punishment. But apparently, some people find satisfaction in killing and robbing and raping. Just because it might be the easiest way to eliminate wrongdoers doesn't mean it's the right way.


Of course, all this only works in a world with absolute morality. The real world DOESN'T have absolute, verifiable morality in it.

Neither do most D&D worlds.

[Nightcanon]

So the players in my group are now contemplating the idea of restricting the city they are rebuilding to "non evil" alignments.

There will be sweeps of "detect evil" and they will be hunted, detained and mind probed before expulsion, used as training fodder in the "arena" or put to death depending on their crimes and/or level of "evilness".

Suggestions for how to accomplish this are always welcome.


While I think that its a safe idea, what negatives are there to locking down a city based on alignment?

Main problem: what about this isn't in itself evil, particularly the bold bit. To paraphrase Sir Terry Pratchett (Witches Abroad, iirc): if there are no criminals on the streets, look for them in charge

[hamishspence]

Yeah it is. The 1/3rd is across global population, not local. For every hive of scum and villainy where only one in 10 people are remotely decent, there's a "City of Light" where only 1 in 10 people are close to being Evil.

And in the average city, the 1/3 1/3 1/3 ratios may hold sway.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a
In a crowd of ten commoners, odds are good that three will be evil. But that doesn't mean they are monsters or even killers -- each is just a greedy, selfish person who willingly watches others suffer. The sword is no answer here; the paladin is charged to protect these people.

[TheIronGolem]

Again, you only get "probed" if your pinged evil. And you only get punished if you have committed evil acts.
You keep repeating this point as if anyone is missing it. That is not the case.

[awa]

in regards to merchants wanting to come because the people are good and they wont be cheated you forget that chaotic people can cheat. And a merchant can be evil with out being dishonest. So your thought police don't actually increase security. The fact that 33% of merchants cant visit there and because people don't consider themselves evil many nonevil people will choose not to visits for fear of your totalitarian thought police.

In regards to evil diplomats you seem to think evil means puppy kicking cackling cartoon evil it doesn't not necessarily. A diplomat willing to ignore cruelty and brutality in order to get the best deals for his own nation may be an excellent diplomat very much not good.

You can certainly have a city that works like this just don't expect it to be any kind of a utopia.

[kalos72]

Step One:
Detect Evil does not probe your mind...it doesnt molest you in anyway shape or form. It is in itself, COMPLETELY unintrusive!


Step Two:
If found Evil, the person is questioned and given the option: Mind Probe to prove you have not committed any evil acts or leave town immediately.


Step Three:
Mind Probe reveals:
Nothing - "Thank you citizen go on your way"
Something - "You are accused of blah blah blah and will receive a public trial for blah blah blah"


Your trying to tell me that simply casting Detect Evil on a person is Evil and a violation of their civil rights or something? Thats absurd....sorry but come on.


This isn't the OJ trial this is D&D!!!

[awa]

actually detect evil requires you to stare at them for a fair bit to actual detect them or separating them out of a crowd both of which are a fair disruption but in the end not a big deal the problem is the fact that the constant detecting means they need to be drug off and probed over and over again that is the violation of civil liberties because harassing someone does not make them good.
not to mention the fact that you are probing 1/3 of the population means you are spending vast amounts of resources on all these high level spells.

unless you have these mind probes on every street corner you need to take them to a caster who has it which basically means they need to be imprisoned on a fairly regular basis to make sure this time they haven't done anything evil.
And unless you have mind probe traps probing 1/3 of your population means they may be waiting weeks to actually get probed.

[hamishspence]

For paladins it's an at-will ability.

Mind probe, on the other hand, is higher level.

[infomatic]

Divination magic is too easy to screw with, is the problem.

You'll get plenty of false positives, meaning you'll be mind-probing Good people — who then will be viewed as Evil by their peers because Only Evil People are Mind Probed. Classic witch-hunt behavior.

You'd get much better results out of rewarding good behavior, I think.

[kalos72]

in regards to merchants wanting to come because the people are good and they wont be cheated you forget that chaotic people can cheat. And a merchant can be evil with out being dishonest. So your thought police don't actually increase security. The fact that 33% of merchants cant visit there and because people don't consider themselves evil many nonevil people will choose not to visits for fear of your totalitarian thought police.

In regards to evil diplomats you seem to think evil means puppy kicking cackling cartoon evil it doesn't not necessarily. A diplomat willing to ignore cruelty and brutality in order to get the best deals for his own nation may be an excellent diplomat very much not good.

You can certainly have a city that works like this just don't expect it to be any kind of a utopia.

1. Chaotic Good people wont cheat...
2. If a city/state cannot find a "good" diplomat, then I doubt I want to be diplomatic with them in the first place. Diplomats tend to be representations of the people they represent.
3. Not a utopia for who? Why wouldn't a good aligned peasant be more then happy in a city where the government can be trusted, you know your neighbors are honest hard working law abiding folk and you are protected from the darkness that is the rest of the world?

[hamishspence]

1. Chaotic Good people wont cheat...

Chaotic Neutral ones might though. And according to PHB, even Lawful good people can be greedy enough to steal given sufficient temptation.

[kalos72]

True. But when combined with a strong vigilant police force, this covers both options I would think.

Now, I cant find anything on Detect Evil requiring staring at them, but I do see where 1 foot of stone can block it so there are ways around it.

Either the patrols/sweeps would need to be more intrusive which I dont care for, or just stick with the city wide Antipathy Evil approach.

[Coidzor]

Got what you're looking for right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm). Forbiddance. Just kill everyone who isn't on the approved alignment list with HP damage. Unless they're actually a threat in which case they have ways around most other approaches anyway.

Only problem is that it requires an identical alignment, so it's single alignment only instead of any-good. Unless you *want* to have a password system for different districts.

Well, I suppose there's also the fact that you'll have to cheese it to either have the gold to blow or to bypass the gold cost of the component.


Read Dragonlance; the Kingpriest tried this and not only went paranoid and insane, but also wrecked the world after even the gods of Good said "Enough!"

That's not really something that can be applied outside of Dragonlance and the people who wrote it. There's a **** load of issues with that both as an example and in its mechanical consistency.

[Dread_Head]

Your trying to tell me that simply casting Detect Evil on a person is Evil and a violation of their civil rights or something? Thats absurd....sorry but come on.


This isn't the OJ trial this is D&D!!!

Casting Detect Evil certainly isn't evil, it may or may not be a violation of their civil rights depending upon the laws in place, see (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html).

It's using this as a method of forcing people to let you see into their minds that is very dictatorial and possibly evil. (I call it forcing because being forced to leave the city which probably houses their livelihood and family isn't much of a choice) I'm not sure I'd necessarily call it evil myself but it doesn't seem quite right when as has been pointed out this isn't a particularly good test of whether they are problematic citizens or not.

Additionally consider the logistics, even if they're documented as fine already the person who pings them as evil will need to bring them in to find that out OR carry round a list with them OR they will need identification which says their mind probe showed innocence. The third option is the only feasible one but those documents are ripe for forgery and forcing some of your population to carry identification is rather totalitarian...
(Actually just had a thought, the police? paladins? secret police? who go round casting detect evil could cast that spell that lets you memorise a book at a touch to learn the list of people who are evil but who passed the mind probe. That seems like it might be workable, still doesn't erase other concerns though)

[awa]

unless you daughter is selfish then the government comes and takes her away

where your poor because nearby nation and merchants don't like you

where people who are neighbors who have never harmed you are as far as you can tell being arbitrarily rounded up because some heavily armed men says they thought the wrong things

where every family has tales of a loved one being harassed by the government drug off regularly to have there mind read.

clearly a utopia

actually this seems like an excellent trick by a devil with some anti divination magic to trick stupid pallidens into falling. You need to drag this person away to have there mind read imprisoning them till we can get around to mind reading them its for the greater good don't worry there evil its not like there real people with rights.

[Coidzor]

clearly a utopia

Well, you have to put one foot into the Tippyverse, and if you're the first ones to establish such a thing, then you're sitting pretty if you can avoid the Teleportation Wars.


And by restricting I mean have active magics in place to detect and deter people from entering the city or staying in the city itself. There will be sweeps of "detect evil" and they will be hunted, detained and mind probed before expulsion, used as training fodder in the "arena" or put to death depending on their crimes and/or level of "evilness".

Eh, just use Sanctify the Wicked, Programmed Amnesia, or Mindrape.

Or BOED Diplomancy to convert their alignment.


There are two problems at the base of this:
1. Evil people are not necessarily criminals.
2. Most NPCs do not see Alignments as a thing, for lack of a better word. (i.e. You can tell a commoner that his neighbor is evil, but he has been given no reason to hate that neighbor. Maybe some dislike and mistrust, but he doesn't necessarily see his neighbor as something that needs to be removed, or any different from himself.)
(3. Reason three is that alignment may or may not be objective and/or subjective, but implying either to be true would spark a debate that would leave the question unanswered.)

1. Debatable even before the attendant Alignment Debate, because we have a situation where the mechanics of the game can be read as very much at odds with Word of God, and automatically leads to either begging the question(IIRC) if allowed to just stand as a point or to an alignment debate if it's not allowed to just stand as a point.

2. *shrug*

3. Up to the individual DM, and if they won't answer the question when asked then you should probably be wary, both of *them* and attempting this plan.

[kalos72]

Casting Detect Evil certainly isn't evil, it may or may not be a violation of their civil rights depending upon the laws in place, see (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html).

It's using this as a method of forcing people to let you see into their minds that is very dictatorial and possibly evil. (I call it forcing because being forced to leave the city which probably houses their livelihood and family isn't much of a choice) I'm not sure I'd necessarily call it evil myself but it doesn't seem quite right when as has been pointed out this isn't a particularly good test of whether they are problematic citizens or not.

Additionally consider the logistics, even if they're documented as fine already the person who pings them as evil will need to bring them in to find that out OR carry round a list with them OR they will need identification which says their mind probe showed innocence. The third option is the only feasible one but those documents are ripe for forgery and forcing some of your population to carry identification is rather totalitarian...
(Actually just had a thought, the police? paladins? secret police? who go round casting detect evil could cast that spell that lets you memorise a book at a touch to learn the list of people who are evil but who passed the mind probe. That seems like it might be workable, still doesn't erase other concerns though)

1. Its not here...cast away. Do you want to live here? Accept the fact that sometimes you will have to sacrifice somethings.

2. You get probed, you killed your neighbor because he was poisoning your horses. You get tried, you do prison time. Move on. Nothing different then any other society except we used magic to crack the case. Moving out of the city or your choice, most likely not one you will make if you have a family or business there.

3. http://dndtools.eu/spells/races-of-destiny--81/scholars-touch--3038/

[kalos72]

unless you daughter is selfish then the government comes and takes her away

where your poor because nearby nation and merchants don't like you

where people who are neighbors who have never harmed you are as far as you can tell being arbitrarily rounded up because some heavily armed men says they thought the wrong things

where every family has tales of a loved one being harassed by the government drug off regularly to have there mind read.

clearly a utopia

actually this seems like an excellent trick by a devil with some anti divination magic to trick stupid pallidens into falling. You need to drag this person away to have there mind read imprisoning them till we can get around to mind reading them its for the greater good don't worry there evil its not like there real people with rights.

1. Being selfish isn't committing an evil act.

2. Economy isnt a problem when you bring in TV related scenarios.

3. No neighbor needs worry about being Mind Probed, unless they want to move in.

4. Mind Probe traps anyone, in, probed, judged evil or not out in 5mins. Still would need full due process if found evil.

[MonochromeTiger]

1. Chaotic Good people wont cheat...
2. If a city/state cannot find a "good" diplomat, then I doubt I want to be diplomatic with them in the first place. Diplomats tend to be representations of the people they represent.
3. Not a utopia for who? Why wouldn't a good aligned peasant be more then happy in a city where the government can be trusted, you know your neighbors are honest hard working law abiding folk and you are protected from the darkness that is the rest of the world?

...hehe...hahaha...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA ok this was hilarious.

1: chaotic good people WOULD cheat if they have any reason to think they need to, heck chaotic good people would probably be up in arms about how much regulation is put on simply living in the city for this plan to work, you are quite literally putting a restriction on moral views to be in the city without repeatedly having your mind probed.

2: diplomats are not a full representation of the people from their city/country. they are a representative of the diplomatic needs of the government which may or may not endorse their individual views. a diplomat can be a terrible person in their private life but if they still manage to get the trade deals, military support, and good will of another government they're just fine as diplomats. but forcing another government to send you ONLY good aligned diplomats is making demands, specifically demands that they go out of their way to send someone you personally like even if they may be the worst negotiator or most shortsighted diplomat they have. suffice to say people dislike demands.

3: not a utopia for quite a few people actually. as has been stated several times "evil" and "law breaking" aren't the same thing,
you know your neighbors are honest hard working law abiding folk they know (if you take the time to explain the game mechanic of alignment to people) that the people being screened are evil, not that everyone is law abiding and honest. you can be good and still lie through your teeth, you can be good and still break the law, removing evil does not remove all risk of crime but it DOES make it more surprising for people when it happens.. further "protecting them from the darkness of the rest of the world"? you're standing in judgement of an entire people with an even deeper layer of judgement for those that don't fit your exact standards, there are evil societies more accepting of people than that..and you are "protecting" them. right.

[TheIronGolem]

Step One:
Detect Evil does not probe your mind...it doesnt molest you in anyway shape or form. It is in itself, COMPLETELY unintrusive!
That's not true, regardless of whether you're actually "probing" anyone's mind or not. The fact is, you're "checking up" on someone when there is no evidence that they have done anything wrong. That's inherently intrusive.



If found Evil, the person is questioned and given the option: Mind Probe to prove you have not committed any evil acts or leave town immediately.

In other words, we have no reason to suspect you of any particular act, but we're still going to strongarm you into allowing us to invade your mind because we just don't like some vaguely-defined aspect of your personality.



Step Three:
Mind Probe reveals:
Nothing - "Thank you citizen go on your way"
Something - "You are accused of blah blah blah and will receive a public trial for blah blah blah"

Police-stateness notwithstanding, any society that's sufficiently high-magic to have literal Thought Police going around like this is also sufficiently high-magic that magical countermeasures will be available. Anyone serious about "being evil" will employ those measures.

It's your campaign, dude. Do it however you want. But don't kid yourself: a government that attempts to enforce ideological purity - no matter what ideology it is or how they go about doing it- is going to be a police state.

We're just trying to help you realize the implications of these acts so that you can make the campaign world react to your players' actions in believable ways. If that's a goal for you at all, you should be giving a lot more weight to these objections.

[kalos72]

...hehe...hahaha...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA ok this was hilarious.

1: chaotic good people WOULD cheat if they have any reason to think they need to, heck chaotic good people would probably be up in arms about how much regulation is put on simply living in the city for this plan to work, you are quite literally putting a restriction on moral views to be in the city without repeatedly having your mind probed.

2: diplomats are not a full representation of the people from their city/country. they are a representative of the diplomatic needs of the government which may or may not endorse their individual views. a diplomat can be a terrible person in their private life but if they still manage to get the trade deals, military support, and good will of another government they're just fine as diplomats. but forcing another government to send you ONLY good aligned diplomats is making demands, specifically demands that they go out of their way to send someone you personally like even if they may be the worst negotiator or most shortsighted diplomat they have. suffice to say people dislike demands.

3: not a utopia for quite a few people actually. as has been stated several times "evil" and "law breaking" aren't the same thing, they know (if you take the time to explain the game mechanic of alignment to people) that the people being screened are evil, not that everyone is law abiding and honest. you can be good and still lie through your teeth, you can be good and still break the law, removing evil does not remove all risk of crime but it DOES make it more surprising for people when it happens.. further "protecting them from the darkness of the rest of the world"? you're standing in judgement of an entire people with an even deeper layer of judgement for those that don't fit your exact standards, there are evil societies more accepting of people than that..and you are "protecting" them. right.

1. Again I say, this isnt a one stop answer. Detect Evil/Antipathy AND a strong vigilant police force. Crime and Evil are two different problems.

2. Perhaps not, but in my eyes if you send an evil person as a diplomatic representative of your city/state, I REALLY dont think I want to talk to you in the first place.

3. See #1

4. See #1...AGAIN!!!

[hamishspence]

1. Being selfish isn't committing an evil act.

It's likely to produce minor evil acts though- and is a trait that tends to produce an Evil alignment.

[kalos72]

That's not true, regardless of whether you're actually "probing" anyone's mind or not. The fact is, you're "checking up" on someone when there is no evidence that they have done anything wrong. That's inherently intrusive.



In other words, we have no reason to suspect you of any particular act, but we're still going to strongarm you into allowing us to invade your mind because we just don't like some vaguely-defined aspect of your personality.


Police-stateness notwithstanding, any society that's sufficiently high-magic to have literal Thought Police going around like this is also sufficiently high-magic that magical countermeasures will be available. Anyone serious about "being evil" will employ those measures.

It's your campaign, dude. Do it however you want. But don't kid yourself: a government that attempts to enforce ideological purity - no matter what ideology it is or how they go about doing it- is going to be a police state.

We're just trying to help you realize the implications of these acts so that you can make the campaign world react to your players' actions in believable ways. If that's a goal for you at all, you should be giving a lot more weight to these objections.


1. Know Alignment is intrusive? Detect magic is intrusive? I simply disagree here...

2. No particular act, other then being Evil. Which is cause enough to question you. You decide if you want to get probed or leave the city. How guilty/innocent are you?

3. I have made several notes about good points people have made. But like I said, the moral Good vs Evil is just getting silly.

4. You seem opposed to the idea, in a world of Dragons and mighty earth shattering magic that we use anything other then good old fashioned detective work and a pencil and notepad to find out when a crime is committed?

[infomatic]

Any society that's sufficiently high-magic to have literal Thought Police going around like this is also sufficiently high-magic that magical countermeasures will be available. Anyone serious about "being evil" will employ those measures.

Absolutely. Your stated policy of:

• Mass detect evil
• Lots of Mind Probing
• Punishments as needed

Will have the result of mind-probing a bunch of peons (some evil, some not) while anybody powerful enough to do actual Evil use the plentiful means of avoiding detection. Eventually this will work its way into the general populace, as anybody with money buys divination-beating magic (from neutral sources, of course, or from libertarians who don't like the system).

And don't think the regular populace won't notice that Montague McSchemely, the mustache-twirling merchant, just got checked out A-OK by the Paladins. He probably paid them off, they'll say …

[kalos72]

It's likely to produce minor evil acts though- and is a trait that tends to produce an Evil alignment.

The the probe would tell the parent that this child has needs and you need to address them. Since no crime/act was committed...nothing happens except maybe the parents find out how bad it is and have time to save their little girl.

[infomatic]

The the probe would tell the parent that this child has needs and you need to address them. Since no crime/act was committed...nothing happens except maybe the parents find out how bad it is and have time to save their little girl.

Or lose her to the government. Good luck convincing them of that.

As for the Antipathy spell — exactly how high-level are these PCs of yours? Because that's going to be Epic.

[MonochromeTiger]

1. Again I say, this isnt a one stop answer. Detect Evil/Antipathy AND a strong vigilant police force. Crime and Evil are two different problems.
3. See #1

4. See #1...AGAIN!!!

I saw #1, I was commenting on what you actively said which was that the good aligned peasants would KNOW their neighbors were honest lawful people..which wasn't true. heck the fact that you admit the need for a strong vigilant police force is pointing out a major flaw in the plan, why bother screening evil specifically if you're going to put up a general police force to handle crime regardless? if the police force can be trusted with the crimes of the good and the neutral why must the evil go under an even stronger level of suspicion when the biggest differences between the three are motive for the crimes and means they go about the crimes. if someone is thinking mean thoughts they somehow deserve an inquisition whether they plan to act on them or not but somehow if someone else is doing something in a nicer way with the same result it doesn't deserve suspicion until the act is done?

[kalos72]

Absolutely. Your stated policy of:

• Mass detect evil
• Lots of Mind Probing
• Punishments as needed

Will have the result of mind-probing a bunch of peons (some evil, some not) while anybody powerful enough to do actual Evil use the plentiful means of avoiding detection. Eventually this will work its way into the general populace, as anybody with money buys divination-beating magic (from neutral sources, of course, or from libertarians who don't like the system).

And don't think the regular populace won't notice that Montague McSchemely, the mustache-twirling merchant, just got checked out A-OK by the Paladins. He probably paid them off, they'll say …

Agreed its not a one stop answer. But is it better then not doing anything? I say perhaps yes...

Paired with a "strong vigilant police force" it might be a good combo...better then most cities will have.

[Captnq]

Widened Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm).

Be a wild mage with empower rod, get you a dozen extra cubes or so.

Or better still, research a custom version that actually catapults anyone who is evil into the air and out of the city. So if any citizens turn evil, they suddenly fly into the air and vanish over the city walls into the moat.

Sort of like the bridge of death in the Holy Grail.

[kalos72]

I saw #1, I was commenting on what you actively said which was that the good aligned peasants would KNOW their neighbors were honest lawful people..which wasn't true. heck the fact that you admit the need for a strong vigilant police force is pointing out a major flaw in the plan, why bother screening evil specifically if you're going to put up a general police force to handle crime regardless? if the police force can be trusted with the crimes of the good and the neutral why must the evil go under an even stronger level of suspicion when the biggest differences between the three are motive for the crimes and means they go about the crimes. if someone is thinking mean thoughts they somehow deserve an inquisition whether they plan to act on them or not but somehow if someone else is doing something in a nicer way with the same result it doesn't deserve suspicion until the act is done?

They would know, you cover them two ways. One evil is being monitored and hopefully removed, although some will get through the cracks find loopholes. And pure crime will be addressed normally. Both publicly.

Its not the perfect system, but removing evil and addressing regular crime cant be a bad thing for a citizen to know is happening in their defence.

[kalos72]

Widened Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm).

Be a wild mage with empower rod, get you a dozen extra cubes or so.

Or better still, research a custom version that actually catapults anyone who is evil into the air and out of the city. So if any citizens turn evil, they suddenly fly into the air and vanish over the city walls into the moat.

Sort of like the bridge of death in the Holy Grail.

Myth Drannor set it up so that if an orc/goblin and such even tried to enter the city they got random teleported 500 miles away. I like it... :)

[Vhaidara]

The the probe would tell the parent that this child has needs and you need to address them. Since no crime/act was committed...nothing happens except maybe the parents find out how bad it is and have time to save their little girl.

You still dragged a teenage girl off to the government building and probed her mind (the alternative of exile is hardly realistic for her). That is a gross violation of privacy, and then, after this entire process, she is sent home and her parents are told "Your daughter is a bit selfish. Do better."

[Coidzor]

Widened Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm).

Be a wild mage with empower rod, get you a dozen extra cubes or so.

Or better still, research a custom version that actually catapults anyone who is evil into the air and out of the city. So if any citizens turn evil, they suddenly fly into the air and vanish over the city walls into the moat.

Sort of like the bridge of death in the Holy Grail.

Reeducation camps, more like.


You still dragged a teenage girl off to the government building and probed her mind (the alternative of exile is hardly realistic for her). That is a gross violation of privacy, and then, after this entire process, she is sent home and her parents are told "Your daughter is a bit selfish. Do better."

Obviously you just invent modern public schooling and have it as part of their guidance counseling. :smalltongue:

[Craft (Cheese)]

And in the average city, the 1/3 1/3 1/3 ratios may hold sway.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a
In a crowd of ten commoners, odds are good that three will be evil. But that doesn't mean they are monsters or even killers -- each is just a greedy, selfish person who willingly watches others suffer. The sword is no answer here; the paladin is charged to protect these people.

To be fair, this is Eberron-specific, and that setting deviates from the standard assumptions of alignment in more ways than one...

[Dread_Head]

1. Its not here...cast away. Do you want to live here? Accept the fact that sometimes you will have to sacrifice somethings.

2. You get probed, you killed your neighbor because he was poisoning your horses. You get tried, you do prison time. Move on. Nothing different then any other society except we used magic to crack the case. Moving out of the city or your choice, most likely not one you will make if you have a family or business there.

3. http://dndtools.eu/spells/races-of-destiny--81/scholars-touch--3038/

It's less of a problem when the systems already set up, people know the score and move there if they want knowing the consequences. People can trade or not trade with the city if they want. So it comes down to how the cities set up originates. I think we're all assuming that you're going to implement this in an average city of mixed alignments which will lead to the problems we're pointing out. This is as up to a third of people (those with evil alignments) will need to be catalogued and may object and a further 2/9 (the other chaotic alignments) would have pretty good objections to the system as well (actually as is being pointed out maybe most other people).
I suppose the other option would be for you to build a new city somewhere but then the problem comes from attracting citizens. It would definitely appeal to LG types but uprooting and moving to a new city is a big deal in this world let alone in the usual pseudo medieval society most D&D worlds emulate.

I don't have a problem with mind probes being used as part of a judiciary system if there's evidence already that the culprit needs it. It's more a problem when you're routinely reading the minds of large segments of the population.

Thanks for the link, that was the spell I was thinking of.

Another thing you seem not to be considering is that people don't generally know their alignment in D&D. There's probably large numbers of people who would ping as evil without thinking they are. Then when they get dragged off and faced with a mind probe they become outraged and probably resist. Is this particularly their fault? Should they accept that the state gets to look through their memories for the greater good?

Third Edit: Extrapolating the above point, say you're a worker in the city and you're a little selfish and greedy but in the long run of things you don't think you're a particularly terrible person. You don't sacrifice babies, you don't steal and you don't even raise you're hand in anger against your partner. Maybe you walk past the homeless people in the city, maybe you desire other women, maybe you think your superior to your coworkers and that they're all vermin, maybe you got the promotion and raise at work despite not being the best choice due to how well you've flattered your boss. On your way home from work you get stopped by the militia, they say you need to come in with them for further testing. You object, you've not done anything wrong and you haven't broken any laws. You are eventually taken before a mind reader that says you must either leave the city limits or submit to a mind read. You're outraged, what right do they have to scan your memories or turf you out of your own home. Either way your gonna be super pissed off and maybe you resist, or maybe you go out onto the streets saying what a terrible system it is, maybe formulate some dissent (nothing illegal mind but chanting slogans and sticking up posters), maybe you tell people travelling to the city what a hell hole it is and how they should avoid it.
Basically you're just gonna piss off a good proportion of your citizens with unnecessary totalitarianism.

Edit: I don't really have a problem with this city existing in a campaign world, it could be a pretty interesting plot hook. I just think you're underestimating the logistics of a city like this originating, the results of it's policies, their actual effectiveness and the average commoners reactions to it. Also I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to live there

Second Edit: Additionally if you and your players are happy with a system like this implemented in a city then play away, its your game. This is all just my opinion man.

[hamishspence]

To be fair, this is Eberron-specific, and that setting deviates from the standard assumptions of alignment in more ways than one...

True. Still, "1/3 of the population of the average town are evil" was one of the campaign models discussed in Quintessential Paladin II - it may not be all that atypical in that respect.

[The Oni]

This whole concept suggests a very Warhammer 40K feel to the world, as in the good guys are either A.) Not really that good or B.) So desperate and on the ropes they'll go to any lengths to fight evil, including thought-police. If that's what you're going for I applaud you, and you should definitely do this.

Otherwise I think it's quite dystopian and I would avoid it like the plague your mother in law metaphorical cliches.

[TheIronGolem]

1. Know Alignment is intrusive? Detect magic is intrusive? I simply disagree here...
On what grounds? Also, who brought up Detect Magic?


2. No particular act, other then being Evil. Which is cause enough to question you. You decide if you want to get probed or leave the city. How guilty/innocent are you?
Being evil isn't an "act", nor evidence of an act. It just means a person thinks and feels in certain ways. Targeting people for the stop-and-frisk treatment on this basis (regardless of the fact that you're using magic to do it) is straight-up police state tactics, no two ways about it. And framing it as a "choice" on the part of the person targeted (as you do above) to duck responsibility for those tactics doesn't change anything.



3. I have made several notes about good points people have made. But like I said, the moral Good vs Evil is just getting silly.
How? Every assertion like this you've made thus far has been a mere appeal to incredulity.


4. You seem opposed to the idea, in a world of Dragons and mighty earth shattering magic that we use anything other then good old fashioned detective work and a pencil and notepad to find out when a crime is committed?

You don't get XP for defeating strawman arguments.

Neither I nor anybody else said that magic couldn't or shouldn't be employed in the investigation of crimes. What I and others are saying is that the particular methods you describe are (if you think through their implications) ineffective, counterproductive, and incompatible with their purported goals. More to the point, we're saying that a society run this way won't be believable in a game setting if you portray it as being as effective (or as Good-compatible) as you seem to think it would be.

In short, you asked in your OP what the negatives of this system would be, and we're telling you.

[QuintonBeck]

Absolutely. Your stated policy of:

• Mass detect evil
• Lots of Mind Probing
• Punishments as needed

Will have the result of mind-probing a bunch of peons (some evil, some not) while anybody powerful enough to do actual Evil use the plentiful means of avoiding detection. Eventually this will work its way into the general populace, as anybody with money buys divination-beating magic (from neutral sources, of course, or from libertarians who don't like the system).

And don't think the regular populace won't notice that Montague McSchemely, the mustache-twirling merchant, just got checked out A-OK by the Paladins. He probably paid them off, they'll say …

Quoted for truth. Bungling up your enforcement people in the role of Thought Police to catch and banish or monitor those who are evil and choose to live in your Good city and get caught being evil is a waste of resources. These aren't the evil people you need to worry about.

You need to worry about criminals, as you said, crime and evil two different things, and the monitoring and banishment of the evil (again, the dumb evil who gets caught) is a waste of resources. Turn your thought police towards actual magical investigation of crimes and you have a better system to make a better city.

Good people are supposed to protect and respect all life, even evil life, unless they do something that warrants the loss of that respect and protection which they haven't done simply by virtue of pinging evil. Interrogation and invasion of privacy could be, as I've said previously, Lawful but hardly Good.

[CombatOwl]

So the players in my group are now contemplating the idea of restricting the city they are rebuilding to "non evil" alignments.

And by restricting I mean have active magics in place to detect and deter people from entering the city or staying in the city itself. There will be sweeps of "detect evil" and they will be hunted, detained and mind probed before expulsion, used as training fodder in the "arena" or put to death depending on their crimes and/or level of "evilness".

Suggestions for how to accomplish this are always welcome.


While I think that its a safe idea, what negatives are there to locking down a city based on alignment?

Depends on the alignment. For lawful alignments? None. For chaotic alignments? That seems vaguely like the plot to Escape from LA.

Though the existence of the Wall of <Alignment> means you don't have to take the extreme step of random executions. You need to seal the city off from teleportation, then use wall of <alignment> to restrict access. Might want to actually have a few layers of walls of <alignment> so you force evil people to make the save multiple times.


On what grounds? Also, who brought up Detect Magic?


Being evil isn't an "act", nor evidence of an act. It just means a person thinks and feels in certain ways. Targeting people for the stop-and-frisk treatment on this basis (regardless of the fact that you're using magic to do it) is straight-up police state tactics, no two ways about it. And framing it as a "choice" on the part of the person targeted (as you do above) to duck responsibility for those tactics doesn't change anything.


How? Every assertion like this you've made thus far has been a mere appeal to incredulity.



You don't get XP for defeating strawman arguments.

Neither I nor anybody else said that magic couldn't or shouldn't be employed in the investigation of crimes. What I and others are saying is that the particular methods you describe are (if you think through their implications) ineffective, counterproductive, and incompatible with their purported goals. More to the point, we're saying that a society run this way won't be believable in a game setting if you portray it as being as effective (or as Good-compatible) as you seem to think it would be.

In short, you asked in your OP what the negatives of this system would be, and we're telling you.

I'm not sure if that would actually be unethical if real life included infallible moral detection spells. Just stuff them naked in a room and use dispel magic to remove any protections against alignment detection. Then detect evil. Since evil is an objective, detectable thing in D&D, there is a moral argument to be made that doing otherwise is a disservice to society.

[Dread_Head]

I'm not sure if that would actually be unethical if real life included infallible moral detection spells. Just stuff them naked in a room and use dispel magic to remove any protections against alignment detection. Then detect evil. Since evil is an objective, detectable thing in D&D, there is a moral argument to be made that doing otherwise is a disservice to society.

Yes but as has been pointed out earlier in the thread just because they're evil doesn't mean they've done anything wrong. So after you've forced your entire population through this detection system, probably most of them unwillingly, what do you do with the 1/3 of citizens who have pinged as evil. Imprison them? Banish them? Mind probe them? Kill them? Force them into ghettos? All as a result of them having a particular set of morals. None of these are particularly fair, all are discriminatory and what problems exactly will it help with or solve?

[Sith_Happens]

Being evil isn't an "act", nor evidence of an act. It just means a person thinks and feels in certain ways.

Actually, most source text on the subject indicates that alignment is more about actions than thoughts, so it is in fact cause for suspicion. Not necessarily strong cause, but cause nonetheless.

Still, there already is a place in D&D canon whose residents tried to wage a no-holds-barred crusade against Evil. It's called Hell. But hey, maybe the OP and his players know better than them.:smalltongue:

[Werephilosopher]

You decide if you want to get probed or leave the city.

You seem opposed to the idea, in a world of Dragons and mighty earth shattering magic that we use anything other then good old fashioned detective work and a pencil and notepad to find out when a crime is committed?

By all means, use magic. Just not this kind. The ends can't justify the means in a society that tries to be Good- you simply won't have a morally just city that probes peoples' minds when there's no evidence that they've committed a crime. If you want a just, fair city, it has to be even-handed with dispensing justice- you have to give everyone fair trials. Fair TRIALS, not "I ripped this incriminating evidence from your mind, no arguments no witnesses go directly to jail."

There are plenty of magic goodies that are usable without breaking personal privacy. Spells that can reveal past events on-site can be very effective on crime scenes, birds nesting in trees can actually be tiny animated objects that hinder nearby wrongdoers, etc. Even putting a suspect in a room with Zone of Truth cast wouldn't violate their privacy, as long as they had the right to remain silent and weren't held there indefinitely.

It's all about basic fundamental rights. MAYBE being a complete monster and a known mass murderer/torturer/jaywalker justifies breaking those rights to invade someone's mind, but simply pinging as "Evil?" Come on. That's not even EVIDENCE of a crime, any more than my tendency to enjoy tea is evidence that I'm connected to a recent string of tea shop break-ins in my area.

[Broken Crown]

Just to be clear: The OP said that the PCs were planning on restricting this city to non-Evil alignments. I presume that means exactly what it says, and no more: The goal is not to create a Good society, or a crime-free society, or a just society – just one where no one is Evil.

In this case, you could very well make a law that states, "anyone who detects as Evil is banned from the city," and have law-enforcement paladins constantly patrol and scan everyone they meet. Anyone who pings as Evil gets told, "We don't allow folks like you in Orwellville; you've got twenty-four hours to pack your bags and move out. Never come back." If the goal is not to monitor or punish Evil people, but to get rid of them, mind probes and other morally dubious acts are totally unnecessary (and inadvisable, since they may to lead to the enforcers of the law drifting towards Evil themselves over time).

If you're worried about Undetectable Alignment, have all the citizens walk through an Antipathy zone or similar effect; if they freak out, out they go.

Once you've done a census of the entire population, and kicked out all the "undesirables," the task becomes easier, since you just have to keep new undesirables from entering, and keep an eye out for people undergoing alignment change.

It would not be a Good society, in any sense of the word that I would recognize, but that wasn't the stated goal. I think that, with care, it would be possible for it not to be Evil. I personally would not want to live in or visit such a place, but I imagine that sufficiently fearful and compliant people might find it comforting rather than oppressive.

If, on the other hand, the intention is to allow Evil people to remain in the city if they choose to do so, at the cost of being oppressed and harassed by the government, I really don't see the point. It doesn't achieve the stated goal of eliminating Evil, it doesn't eliminate crime, it doesn't encourage Goodness, it forces the authorities to walk an impossibly thin line to avoid falling into Evil themselves, it requires a huge and constant commitment of resources, and the whole thing seems pointlessly vindictive.

[awa]

I could see this being run by a group of intelligent constructs utterly logical (albeit flawed logic) and with out emotion and with no real conception of good or evil. They enforce these draconian laws striving to entice good people and are utterly baffled when good people don't like their police state. Evil people obviously do poorly in said city but to a lesser degree so do good people, good people who try and help their neighbors and just as importantly their non-evil family members are punished for breaking normal laws. So the people who function best in the society are the lawful neutral people good enough not to get tagged by the detect evil but sufficiently apathetic that seeing a family torn apart by cruel and arbitrary laws does not meaningful affect. Chaotic people of all variations function poorly in the police state.

I think it would be an interesting city but i don't think it would be a utopia.

[kalos72]

I honestly am not getting the attempt to claim "civil rights violations" in a D&D world.

I honestly am not getting the concern about a daughter having to have a harmless, painless Mind Probe as being some threat to peace and love every where.

I don't understand how forcing someone to stand in a Zone of Truth is any different then asking them if they will agree to have a Mind Probe.


Most of you, not all, seem to want to make this a 'cake and eat it too' argument. I want to rid the world of Evil but be damned if we can be expected to sacrifice anything about it...

The idea of Antipathy zones in city is cool...
The idea of hundreds of "bird" spies flying all over is awesome but how?
What other options do I have? Cause most of you just told me I was Evil... :P

[Captnq]

OOO! A Catapult trap that is triggered by a detect evil spell!

Ptwang!

At the Main Gates:

State your name, reason for visit, if you have any fruits or vegitables, then please sit on the Evil-a-pult.

The Evil-a-pult? It's a catapult that launches evil people into that pit of muck over yonder. A messy, but harmless landing, I assure you. Comes with a free feather fall spell. Now step lively and- Oh. Declining entry into the city I see? Well, feel free to visit the Den of Sin we keep for riff raff scumbags like yourself over there next to the pit of muck. Have a nice day!

[infomatic]

I honestly am not getting the concern about a daughter having to have a harmless, painless Mind Probe as being some threat to peace and love every where.


You a parent? Seriously asking.

I don't think you're evil — I just think you're not thinking through the realities of what you're proposing. The idea of using power to create a utopian society has been around forever (or at least since that Squadron Supreme miniseries in the 80s.) And it ALWAYS goes wrong. Because simple solutions don't solve complex problems.

The biggest faults with your idea aren't philosophical — though that's part of it. The problems are practical. The Thought Police idea will be effective only at finding low-level thugs, and angering your populace, while the real villains will be rich, powerful or clever enough to avoid it. The idea will draw troublemakers, deviltry (and outright Devils) to your city like flies, because it's so easily corrupted.

There's good story material there, but none of it is the happy-ending kind. Personally, I'd let the players try it, and then have their city slip bit by bit out of their grasp, perhaps culminating in a showdown with the Devil (Mr. McSchemely, mentioned above) who has seized control and run the party out of town on a bogus Mind-Probe charge.

Have you thought about just boosting the economy and installing a neighborhood watch program?

[kalos72]

There is no Thought Police though...Zone of Truth or Mind Probe..both just make you answer a question.

What ways could a police force be used in this endeavor? What skills/spells/items would they need to be extremely effective then?

And yes I have a son, 2 years old Sunday! :)

[Vhaidara]

I honestly am not getting the concern about a daughter having to have a harmless, painless Mind Probe as being some threat to peace and love every where.

Because your option (even if you were born in the city and have lived your entire life there) is either allow someone to examine your every thought and memory (I don't know how old you are, but as a teenager do/did you want the government someone else to know [B]everything you've done?) because you are a bit of a jerk.

On the other hand, I completely agree with Forbiddance modified into an Evil-pult. As long as you also Feather Fall them on the way down.

EDIT: congrats on the kid.

[Werephilosopher]

I honestly am not getting the attempt to claim "civil rights violations" in a D&D world.

Not civil rights. Fundamental rights. As in, fundamental to living, sentient beings, the violation of which is evil. Even if someone didn't live in a society, and thus have no civil rights, I'd still think he'd have a basic right to not get killed (barring animals, which can't make moral judgments, and stupidity). If he himself murders lots of people and commits other heinous acts, a case could be made that he's revoked his own natural right because he didn't respect the natural rights of others (to live). But someone needs to violate the natural rights of others in order to revoke their own, so simply being Evil wouldn't warrant losing your right to your own mind.


I honestly am not getting the concern about a daughter having to have a harmless, painless Mind Probe as being some threat to peace and love every where.

If young girls can be subjected to Mind Probe by the state, for little good reason, that's indicative of more deep-seated problems threatening peace and love everywhere.

Think of it like this. How'd you like some government bureaucrat, whom you've never met, seeing your entire internet history? Or your diary, journal, whatever? Now how about them seeing your memories? And, further, your thoughts and feelings? Basically, we are talking about someone being able to see your innermost, most private self. This is neither harmless nor painless- the fear alone that someone could abuse that information, learn of something embarrassing or shameful for you, see secrets that you never meant to reveal, would be enough to scar most.


I don't understand how forcing someone to stand in a Zone of Truth is any different then asking them if they will agree to have a Mind Probe.

Because in a Zone of Truth, one must still volunteer to speak. They can remain silent if they wish, they just can't willingly mislead the authorities. You don't have to give any personal information that is demanded of you, as per probing.


Most of you, not all, seem to want to make this a 'cake and eat it too' argument. I want to rid the world of Evil but be damned if we can be expected to sacrifice anything about it...

A, D&D tends to require a balance between Good and Evil. Too much of one, the imbalance causes problems. It's not the brightest idea, but that's usually how it works.

B, permanently getting rid of Evil is hard. Like, really freaking hard. I'm serious. Somebody's killing people? You kill him in the name of Good? Well, even if it was justified, some might say you just did something Evil yourself. Same thing here, except your plan goes too far- probing Evil people's minds, even before they are charged with any crimes. You may be removing little bits of Evil from the city now and then.... but over time, those in charge get used to the way things are done, and abuse their powers over other people.


The idea of Antipathy zones in city is cool...
The idea of hundreds of "bird" spies flying all over is awesome but how?
What other options do I have? Cause most of you just told me I was Evil... :P

Permanencied Animate Objects made by the city's hired spellcasters, order to patrol the skies and streets and subdue criminals with nonlethal damage when they see crimes. As a bonus, have them fill other roles- when not apprehending criminals, they can clean the streets, deliver letters, act as portable streetlamps at night, entertain people by mimicking musical instruments. Have them be exquisite bird carvings made by master craftsmen, so every day people see works of art flying by.

And there are other divination options. But hauling someone away without even having a crime to judge them for, and using spells that actively invade someone's mind, are not good for encouraging a Good city.

[Sith_Happens]

The idea of Antipathy zones in city is cool...
The idea of hundreds of "bird" spies flying all over is awesome but how?
What other options do I have? Cause most of you just told me I was Evil... :P

Wall of Good is lower level than Antipathy and therefore easier/cheaper to make permanent (whether via wondrous architecture or researching it onto your Permanency list). Apply them liberally throughout the city and it will be impractical for most Evil creatures to live there.

[awa]

the biggest problem your not addressing is how often you need to go through these procedures. having to be drug off to the mindprobe center on a regular basis and have your every thought poked through to see if you've done anything bad is going to be very unpleasant and exile is one of the worst punishments you can give someone so it's really not a choice for your average person to two whom it's just a slow death sentence.

Not to mention the vast amount of wasted resources, if you actually wanted to do some good you could spend some of the tens of thousands of gold you wasted on these programs creating infrastructure that would actually reduce crimes becuase poverty causes more crime then alignment.

edit
animated objects are to stupid to stop crimes on there own. how is it supposed to tell the difference between 2 kids playing keep away and a hafling wearing shoes that stealing some ladies purse. or the difference between two kids in a shoving match and two grown men in a brawl. This is a really bad idea.

[MonochromeTiger]

Have you thought about just boosting the economy and installing a neighborhood watch program?

honestly that would go farther towards solving problems than trying to screen and regulate alignments would.. 100% guaranteed ends to crime simply don't exist short of removing all free will, potential gain, and limbs with which to commit the crime and removing any of these has a major downside. free will should be obvious since removing it only serves to make the title of "society" pointless, it would simply be machines going about pre-approved routines each day. potential gain for crime can't be removed without making wealth, social standing, and material gain all disappear. and removing all limbs winds up causing way more bleeding and screaming than most leaders are willing to put up with (and doesn't do anything about those pesky psion criminals).

by all means find some means of placing a contingency spell on each street corner that alerts the guards if a crime has been committed near it and a way of teleporting them there. but don't think that "we treat you worse and will kick you out if you don't let us read your deepest darkest secrets because you don't think like we do" will cause anything but societal unrest and worse problems than you had when you started. and that's all without bringing up the cost to the players if they're really going to implement the system, they would have to be the ones to actively pay for the various spells and equipment and make sure it all runs smoothly, they would have to be the ones to deal with the actual threats that the system can't beat (because there will ALWAYS be someone who can outsmart something like this), they'll be the ones who have to deal with the backlash from OTHER cities who have just had a flood of refugees because someone decided today would be a good day to become a totalitarian dictator for good.

[Envyus]

Another problem is if people are behind walls or in a crowd you won't be able tell who is evil.

[Dread_Head]

by all means find some means of placing a contingency spell on each street corner that alerts the guards if a crime has been committed near it and a way of teleporting them there. but don't think that "we treat you worse and will kick you out if you don't let us read your deepest darkest secrets because you don't think like we do" will cause anything but societal unrest and worse problems than you had when you started.

Just thought I'd quote this bit as it kinda sums up my opinions on the matter pretty well. Anyway if you're going to do it anyway here's some suggestions.

Have automatically resetting traps of Holy Word with a high CL dotted around the city reading out songs of praise to the people of the city and auto killing anyone evil. Has the [Good] tag as well so can't possibly be evil to use it in this manner. :p Sorry probably not greatly useful but it would be pretty effective at ridding the city of evil people. (Also I don't even know if it's possible to make a Holy Word trap)

To catch people out you suspect of using undetectable alignment (or similar) bring everyone in for eyetests. Use the spot rules with a hidden piece of paper and have the test subject take 20. Repeat with the paper 10ft further away each time until they can't read it anymore. Now change the piece of paper, hand them a holy weapon and move them 10ft closer. If they can't read it EVIL, if they can then they're not.
This idea could have another skill check substituted as applicable but you need them to only just succeed so that the -1 from the negative level a holy weapon would give them causes them to fail.
This is useful because whilst there are various ways to get around the detect evil spells and such like I'm not sure there are any to avoid the negative level of a holy weapon.

Edit: Also Warforged police, never sleeping robots fighting crime, what's not to love.

[Werephilosopher]

animated objects are to stupid to stop crimes on there own. how is it supposed to tell the difference between 2 kids playing keep away and a hafling wearing shoes that stealing some ladies purse. or the difference between two kids in a shoving match and two grown men in a brawl. This is a really bad idea.

Each "flock" of animated objects has two or three awakenened constructs that make judgments and think for the whole group. Or they don't judge if a crime is occurring, but are sent to active crime scenes by mages viewing areas through scrying screens or something.

EDIT:

Also Warforged police, never sleeping robots fighting crime, what's not to love.

Yeah, any construct can fill the policing job. I suggested animated objects because they could be shaped like birds, so would be fast and agile yet non-intrusive.

[Captnq]

Every City Corner has two signs, each on a different side of the corner.
One Side has:


BEWARE OF EVIL...
BY THOUGHT
BY WORD
BY DEED
Report Evil to the Good Police, Today!

And the other side has a smiling Paladin with a Holy Symbol the reads:


The Good Police Are Looking For A Few Good People.
Are You A Good Person?

[kalos72]

Well constructs if what go us to the "detect evil" path...

Neverwinter “Hammer”
Medium Construct - Advanced
Hit Dice: 15d10+20 (110hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 60 ft. (can’t run), Fly 40 ft. (Poor)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +7 natural, +1 Dex), touch 10, flatfooted 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+16
Attack: Large masterwork warhammer +12 melee (2d6+7 plus 2d6 vs. evil), or light ray +5 ranged touch (2d6 damage)
Full Attack: Large masterwork warhammer +12 melee (2d6+7 plus 2d6 vs. evil), or 2 light rays +5 ranged touch (2d6 damage)
Space/Reach:
Special Attacks: Holy Warhammer, Smite Evil, Light Ray, Stun
Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Lowlight Vision, Damage Reduction 10/Evil, Darkvision 60 ft., Immunity to Magic, Detect Evil, Neverwinter Regeneration*
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +2
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 12, Con ---, Int ---, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: -----
Feats: -----
Challenge Rating: 16

I have no clue yet how to modify the stats accurately or if its just sort of “best guess” approach.

I took a “Valorhammer” base, pumped up the HD, increased the run speed, increased the CR to 16, add a Stun special and the Neverwinter Regeneration (As long as the construct stays within the city limits, +10hp per round maybe?)

I would like to add the Holy merciful back into play and perhaps a “True Seeing” or something to make sure nothing gets by them?

I want them for both “evil detection and eradication” and basic city law enforcement?

[Broken Crown]

I honestly am not getting the attempt to claim "civil rights violations" in a D&D world.

I honestly am not getting the concern about a daughter having to have a harmless, painless Mind Probe as being some threat to peace and love every where.

I don't understand how forcing someone to stand in a Zone of Truth is any different then asking them if they will agree to have a Mind Probe.
Have you, by any chance, read "1984," by George Orwell? It's highly applicable to this scenario.

There is a reason why many consider punishing people for their thoughts and not their actions to be a bad idea.

Trying to fight Evil by making Evil people suffer is counterproductive, because causing unnecessary suffering is Evil, and promotes Evil. And reading people's minds, or even threatening to do so, will cause them suffering, because most people have private thoughts and feelings that they don't care to share with just anybody. And since most people won't know whether they detect as Evil or not, nearly everybody will feel threatened by this policy, and their suffering will definitely be unnecessary. The knowledge that, even if they have committed no crimes, they will henceforth be monitored and subjected to further mind probes, "just in case," will not help matters. The outcome of this policy is likely to be a city full of fearful and suspicious people – not fertile ground for virtues such as compassion and generosity to take root. And without compassion for each other, people are far more likely to turn to Evil.

To eliminate Evil, promote Good. Philosophers from Plato to Lao Tzu have espoused the belief that helping bad people is likely to turn them into good people, while hurting them will turn them into worse people. Modern studies of criminal justice systems generally seem to support this view. You don't teach a dog to be gentle and loving by beating it.


I want to rid the world of Evil but be damned if we can be expected to sacrifice anything about it…
It's a question of the nature of the sacrifice. "The end justifies the means," is pretty widely considered to be an Evil philosophy.

Also, the whole world? I thought we were just cleaning up the city.

[Envyus]

Another problem is if people are behind walls or in a crowd you won't be able tell who is evil.

This again. How are you going to get around this. The only way I see it happening is you breaking into peoples homes to scan them.

[zlefin]

This is only viable in certain settings; it depends on the settings rules for what pings as evil. This would only work in settings where most people ping neutral (or good) and the only things that ping evil are truly evil (e.g. murderers, demon cultists, etc) and where minor bad things don't give a person evil alignment. This tends to be in less morally ambiguous worlds where the bad guys are all cartoon villain evil.

[Captnq]

City wide broadcasts:

Good morning, citizens! It's time to think happy thoughts! Happy thoughts make for happy people, and Happy people are Good people. Are YOU happy, citizen? You'd better be. If you know what's good for you. Now, lets begin. Sunshine.... Kittens... Kittens in the sunshine...

Oh, Mister Cooper? Thinking of dead dessicated kittens shriveling under an unforgiving sun is strickly prohibited... Yes. That's it. Happy Kittens playing in the sunshine. Okay everyone, let's continue, shall we?

[awa]

so spend large numbers of 9th level spells. You realize these constructs are now intelligent and likely have no interest in spending there entire lives watching for people trying to commit crimes. Assuming i did my math right hiring someone to cast awaken construct cost over 25000 gold due to the xp cost all that for one smart construct who is very unlikely to want to be your slave watching for petty crime 24 hours a day.

just hiring groups of guards to patrol and watch for crime normally is literally orders of magnitude cheaper and far more effective.

[TheIronGolem]

There is no Thought Police though...Zone of Truth or Mind Probe..both just make you answer a question.


Of course there are Thought Police. You said you have people (okay, golems, but that's beside the point) going around hunting for anyone who pings the Detect Evil radar. You're literally searching out people who don't think "right". I don't use Orwellian terminology lightly, but this is a case where "Thought Police" absolutely and indisputably applies.

What you seem to have trouble understanding is that it doesn't matter that these methods aren't especially painful or inconvenient. What makes this society a dystopia is that you can be harassed and forcibly detained solely because of what you think, and expelled if you won't submit to even further invasions of your privacy (based on the non-evidence of your "wrongthink"). Doing these things "gently" doesn't change the fact that you shouldn't be doing them at all, if you genuinely want to call this a nice place to live.

By all means, create (or I guess, let your players create) this dystopia if you want. There are all kinds of cool plots and roleplay opportunities you can get out of it. But don't kid yourself that such a place wouldn't logically be a dystopia. It's inherent to the concept, no matter the means you use to implement it.



What ways could a police force be used in this endeavor? What skills/spells/items would they need to be extremely effective then?
Well, for starters, if you have the kind of resources that would let you set up citywide Detect Evil dragnets, then you have the resources to use divination magic to investigate crimes when they happen. Even just making trial witnesses testify from within a Zone of Truth would go a long way.

[awa]

"What ways could a police force be used in this endeavor? What skills/spells/items would they need to be extremely effective then?"

speak with dead would also be a great way for a police force to find criminals.

locate object on illegal objects could be used to find smugglers of counter-band
or the holy symbols of evil deities

[Captnq]

You know, have you considered Evil ghettos?

Simply have certain neighborhoods that are Good Only. Temples, Government offices. That sort of thing. Then you can put the big scarlet 'E' on evil people. You can shun them. Shunning is always fun.

[awa]

lobotomy also cures evil

[Captnq]

Oh. Wait wait wait... HERE YOU GO!!!

COMPEL
- ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (3.0)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Ancestor Domain 8, Shaman 8
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You force the subject of the spell to change alignment, specifying the creature’s new alignment.

Have an artificer make that a hat that everyone has to put on once a month or something. Or a chain metamagic version that you fire into crowds every morning as people go to work!

[Werephilosopher]

so spend large numbers of 9th level spells. You realize these constructs are now intelligent and likely have no interest in spending there entire lives watching for people trying to commit crimes. Assuming i did my math right hiring someone to cast awaken construct cost over 25000 gold due to the xp cost all that for one smart construct who is very unlikely to want to be your slave watching for petty crime 24 hours a day.

just hiring groups of guards to patrol and watch for crime normally is literally orders of magnitude cheaper and far more effective.

Don't spend large numbers. Not all AOs have to be sentient if they follow a leader. And like I said, AOs are simply the first thing that came to mind. And some constructs are programmable and will follow their master's commands even if they're intelligent. Further, clerics with the construct domain can Turn/Rebuke constructs, and if constructs are important to the city there's bound to be at least one cleric with that domain.

[rmnimoc]

First, to the people saying that worshiping an evil god and not doing evil isn't hurting the world, I'd like to remind you just what baator and the abyss are. They are planes where evil beings are tortured/converted for the benefit of devils/demons. If you go to baator or the abyss, YOU ARE MAKING EVIL STRONGER. If you worship an evil god, YOU ARE MAKING EVIL STRONGER. Anyone who pings as evil is (directly or not) making evil stronger. Period. (Which is why my biggest issue with the OPs idea is killing the guilty, which directly strengthens hell and the abyss. That and the torture, which in a world like D&D holds almost no justification.)

If you want this city to be a shining city of light, I'd strongly suggest silverhair knights (dragon 315). They specialize in non-lethal damage and converting evil to neutral and good. Make being evil a felony. The sentence, spending a few minutes with a silverhair paladin, at level 10 they can convert anyone evil to good through guilt if they fail their will save (it would be obvious to anyone in the room if they pass the save). So tie them up will ropes that nerf their will save and convert away. They have to be at least level 15 to use that ability, so it is rather unlikely that anyone your guards can bring in would pass that save. That said, I believe clerics also have a spell that would help in those cases that freezes the evil person in a crystal thing where they stay for a year till they convert (I remember reading it but can't seem to find it anywhere). You do a horrible job parenting? That's okay, 10 minutes with the silverhair knight and your kid is genuinely disgusted and horrified at how they used to act. Are you tired of being evil and want to turn over a new leaf? 10 minutes. Are you a hardened murderer? 10 minutes. If the people in charge of the city make going to see a silverhair knight like being baptized, and now people in the community aren't looking at you like "Oh, this guys is a horrible evil person", they think "He converted from evil, let's throw him a party". Have everyone converted marked with an invisible arcane mark, that way if they ping as evil again they can be investigated in order to determine what is responsible for making them evil and then can fix the problem. You could even make visits manditory to hold any office, since a silverhair knight loses their powers if they stop being good and passing the will save visibly hurts the knight. It may not curb the issue entirely, but it helps.

If you give your paladins patrolling a way to detect magic and a law that says if a paladin wants to stop and talk to you, you STOP, you can tell if people are using undetectable alignment as well. Add in a law where if a paladin asks you a question you have to answer either yes or no, give the paladins a helm of descern lies, and that will bust a vast majority of crimes right then and there. No mind probe needed.

I feel this skirts rather far from the idea of a dystopia, mostly since silverhair knights don't work by mindraping you, they just make you see your crimes from the perspective of the wronged person and guilt you into being good.
The golden rule made law.

Just teach everyone that Evil deserves their pity and that cuts out the problems with people shunning ex-evil people.
Feel free to point out any errors with the above so I can fix them and come up with better idea.

[Vhaidara]

Oh. Wait wait wait... HERE YOU GO!!!

COMPEL
- ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (3.0)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Ancestor Domain 8, Shaman 8
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You force the subject of the spell to change alignment, specifying the creature’s new alignment.

Have an artificer make that a hat that everyone has to put on once a month or something. Or a chain metamagic version that you fire into crowds every morning as people go to work!

It's the Hat of Doubleplus Goodthink! I'm pretty sure that's the write wording. Haven't read 1984 in 5 years.

[awa]

ugh forced alignment changes ive heard that set of arguments

[Hurnn]

The idea here is to use the detect evil to identify people to check.

The mind probe will tell us what they did and why the detect evil labeled them as such.

Based on the severity of the crimes/acts that made the person "evil" - an appropriate punishment.

He killed his wife - public trial - possible death/banishment
He beats up his wife - public trial - possible banishment
He worships Asmodeus - torture for information then death


You never have to preform an evil act to be evil. Not to mention torturing for information then execution is an evil act.

[rmnimoc]

I'd like to clear something up.
This is D&D.
This is not the real world.
There are proven and guaranteed fates for evil people when they die.
They either:
1. Go to Hell, where they are tortured to insanity and beyond so they can reinforce the armies of Hell, made to fight for the subjugation of all reality.
2. I have no idea what happens in Gehenna, but seeing the rest of the evil planes I doubt it is pleasant.
3. Forced to suffer eternity in Hades, trapped by desolation and despair.
4. Spend eternity in the prison plane of Carceri, where every aspect of everything is horrible.
5. Feed their soul to demons in the Abyss, before being converted into a demon and forced to fight for the destruction of all reality.
(All that is me not having any ranks in Knowledge: The Planes)

Being evil is all about being self-serving, right? What part of the above is beneficial to the person in any way shape or form? An untrained knowledge check will tell you all you need to know, being evil is bad for your soul. You are willingly and intentionally hurting yourself and everyone around you by being evil. Let me remind you this isn't the real world, where you can easily deny the existance of dieties. Gods exist in D&D. Good people go to the upper planes, which are good. Bad people go the the lower planes, which are not good. I'm pretty sure that is DC 0 at that point.

Alright, new way of going at this. Let's say you are in the real world. If you suffer from some form of malevolent or covetous ASPD. In most cases, you are a harm to either yourself or others unless you undergo treatment, which in many cases will not be voluntary. It is the duty of humanity as a whole to help those people overcome their problems. If I had the magical power to make it so they are no longer a threat to themselves, I'd understand being called out as being evil for NOT helping those poor people. Especially since in this case, where devils and demons will take their soul against their will and use them to kill and torture people.

I believe that Evil in dungeons and dragons in undoubtably a mental illness. If the people who are not afflicted with it refuse to help the people with it on the grounds it "violates their mental privacy", they cannot claim to be good without needing help of their own.

This isn't a world where evil is truly subjective. There is an undeniable good and evil, and magic can tell which is which. By being evil you are hurting yourself and everyone on the planet, as well as everyone yet to be born.

I'll say it one last time just so it sticks, if you tell me that you are going to help a sadistic monster murder, torture, and corrupt every living thing, and I refuse to stop you on the grounds of it "violating your privacy", I might as well get used to being weak and powerless, because I'll be spending quite some time as a lemure in the future.

[The Oni]

I'd like to clear something up.
This is D&D.
This is not the real world.
There are proven and guaranteed fates for evil people when they die.
etc.

I strongly recommend you watch this anime called Psycho-Pass. Seriously. It explains everything that is horribly, horribly wrong with this kind of thinking.

[Envyus]

I'd like to clear something up.
This is D&D.
This is not the real world.
There are proven and guaranteed fates for evil people when they die.
They either:
1. Go to Hell, where they are tortured to insanity and beyond so they can reinforce the armies of Hell, made to fight for the subjugation of all reality.
2. I have no idea what happens in Gehenna, but seeing the rest of the evil planes I doubt it is pleasant.
3. Forced to suffer eternity in Hades, trapped by desolation and despair.
4. Spend eternity in the prison plane of Carceri, where every aspect of everything is horrible.
5. Feed their soul to demons in the Abyss, before being converted into a demon and forced to fight for the destruction of all reality.
(All that is me not having any ranks in Knowledge: The Planes)


Or if they worship an evil god they get an afterlife promised to them.

[Raven777]

1. Go to Hell, where they are tortured to insanity and beyond so they can reinforce the armies of Hell, made to fight for the subjugation of all reality.
2. I have no idea what happens in Gehenna, but seeing the rest of the evil planes I doubt it is pleasant.
3. Forced to suffer eternity in Hades, trapped by desolation and despair.
4. Spend eternity in the prison plane of Carceri, where every aspect of everything is horrible.
5. Feed their soul to demons in the Abyss, before being converted into a demon and forced to fight for the destruction of all reality.
(All that is me not having any ranks in Knowledge: The Planes)


Clearly the solution to these is to stay evil, go undead, and live forever. Anybody wants to be a vampire? It only stings for a few seconds!

[rmnimoc]

I strongly recommend you watch this anime called Psycho-Pass. Seriously. It explains everything that is horribly, horribly wrong with this kind of thinking.

1. I'm specifically taking about non-lethal rehabilitation for them, I'm not in the mood to watch the show, but from what I can see with wikipedia that is about murder and retaliating in defense, which has nothing to do with this. I'm well aware that all people are "capable of doing bad things at times". What I suggested isn't a punishment. The only pain it causes them is the pain of being aware of any wrongdoings of their own. That is part of the reason I specifically mentioned a rehabilitation which takes 10 minutes where the ability mentions people are grateful for. If I'm off the mark on that please let me know.



Or if they worship an evil god they get an afterlife promised to them.

I'll concede you have a point there. Two problems.
1. That is the exception, not the rule.
2. I'm pretty sure most evil gods have afterlives which aren't a whole lot better. How much kindness do you really expect from gods who advocate torture, cruelty, selfishness, and the whole series of jerk moves. If I told you "Hey let's go worship the god of "torturing weaker people" so we can hang out around him in the afterlife and be weaker than him. It's not like he has that title and portfolio for a reason or anything." I sincerely hope you'd say no. In fact I'd hope you'd knock me out and drag me to an asylum for my own good.



Clearly the solution to these is to stay evil, go undead, and live forever. Anybody wants to be a vampire? It only stings for a few seconds!

I'll concede that as well, too bad when it rains it makes a mini-river and you are totally SoL. Of course, you could just let them help you and go to a land where life is freaking awesome and not totally miserable. Just a suggestion. Also, despite what twilight tells you I'm pretty sure when your heart stops beating you lose the ability to do certain fun things which I'll not mention, cause you know, no blood circulation. There is also the fact you can't cross running water, can't eat garlic, are forced to have OCD, can't break into people's homes, and are KoS in any good city (like the OPs). What kind of self-respecting adventurer are you if you can't break into random peoples homes and break their stuff in order to save the world?

[Scow2]

I fell behind... not sure where we are.

First off, this isn't an average, already-functioning city (From what I hear) - it's one being rebuilt, and has the luxury of checking people as they immigrate in.

I strongly advise against "Detect then Mind Probe". While "It's possible to get a false positive", that is EXTREMELY difficult and rare to accomplish. It's easy to hide an alignment. It's near damn impossible to accidentally fake one.

City-wide Antipathy (Possibly excluding merchant routes, embassies, and other Public places that exclude ) should be the first line of defense against Evil's Intrusion. Detect Evil scans are good for finding 'problem people' - if they want to be Evil, they can do it somewhere else. They're being barred from one Structured Community, not the entire world.


Neither do most D&D worlds.Umm... every D&D world has the spells, SLAs, and supernatural abilities "Detect Good/Law/Evil/Chaos, Protection from Good/Law/Evil/Chaos, Holy Word/Dictum/Blasphemy/Word of Chaos. There IS objective and verifiable morality.



EDIT: Dang... I just looked at antipathy again. It's an 8th-level spell that only lasts 2 hours/level. (I could have sworn it was permanent... maybe it was in 3.0?)

[TuggyNE]

EDIT: Dang... I just looked at antipathy again. It's an 8th-level spell that only lasts 2 hours/level. (I could have sworn it was permanent... maybe it was in 3.0?)

In between eating popcorn I'd assumed we were using SBG's wondrous architecture or something. Have the gates and walls project antipathy continuously, have a set of patrolled transient settlements outside the gates where Evil characters engage in trade, and establish a no-fly zone over the walls in some way. Inside you just have occasional detect evil/detect magic patrols, and anyone inside that detects as Evil is taken for questioning (not torture; questioning, like at a police station or something), and either sent out of the city or punished for any crimes they turn out to have committed, depending on their actual guilt or lack thereof.

One thing that should be noted is that, if you have Good characters in charge of this (verified by detect good and greater dispel magic, presumably), the chances of abusing power as in most of the horror stories depicted thus far are very substantially diminished. You aren't going to get 1984 unless you have a government that is LE; LG turns out rather differently. That is, the conditions of dystopia are demonstrably quite different in a world with pervasive and versatile magic, and our own experiences will not match up as closely as you'd think.

[Scow2]

One thing that should be noted is that, if you have Good characters in charge of this (verified by detect good and greater dispel magic, presumably), the chances of abusing power as in most of the horror stories depicted thus far are very substantially diminished. You aren't going to get 1984 unless you have a government that is LE; LG turns out rather differently. That is, the conditions of dystopia are demonstrably quite different in a world with pervasive and versatile magic, and our own experiences will not match up as closely as you'd think.

After all, "If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary." It's HIGHLY possible to get governance by angels here. (Of course, I jump at any opportunity for Guardinals or Hound Archons to be used in a campaign)

[Raven777]

I'll concede that as well, too bad when it rains it makes a mini-river and you are totally SoL (1). Of course, you could just let them help you and go to a land where life is freaking awesome and not totally miserable (2). Just a suggestion. Also, despite what twilight tells you I'm pretty sure when your heart stops beating you lose the ability to do certain fun things which I'll not mention, cause you know, no blood circulation (3). There is also the fact you can't cross running water, can't eat garlic (4), are forced to have OCD, can't break into people's homes (5), and are KoS in any good city (like the OPs) (6). What kind of self-respecting adventurer are you if you can't break into random peoples homes and break their stuff in order to save the world? (7)

(1) Pathfinder vampires can cross water. I believe I can fly (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/elemental-body).
(2) I'll pass on getting dissolved to form the next batch of Celestials, thank you.
(3) Pretty sure I get off of dinking blood now.
(4) Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge) : Aversion Tolerance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/aversion-tolerance), Succeed Save.
(5) That's what Dominate at will is for. Or setting the house on fire.
(6) Which looks nicer on me, the tattoo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/sin-runes/rune-of-the-inscrutable-one) or the ring (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-mind-shielding)?
(7) The kind that saves the world and lives forever.

[Envyus]

I'll concede you have a point there. Two problems.
1. That is the exception, not the rule.
2. I'm pretty sure most evil gods have afterlives which aren't a whole lot better. How much kindness do you really expect from gods who advocate torture, cruelty, selfishness, and the whole series of jerk moves. If I told you "Hey let's go worship the god of "torturing weaker people" so we can hang out around him in the afterlife and be weaker than him. It's not like he has that title and portfolio for a reason or anything." I sincerely hope you'd say no. In fact I'd hope you'd knock me out and drag me to an asylum for my own good.


The majority of evil creature's worship evil gods. Most Orcs, Most Kobolds, Pretty much all Chomatic Dragons, Tons of evil Humans, Most Goblinoids and most Drow all Worship evil gods.

The Kobolds afterlife for example takes place in the first layer of hell were they are given new fiendish forms and massive tunnels and no longer feel hunger. They consider this the perfect after life for them.

Bad afterlives tend to only happen if they don't worship a god or you go against the god's ways and teachings so they don't let you in to their afterlife and they go to the default ones for their alignment. (For neutral and evil characters these are pretty terrible.)

[Scow2]

Aye. Most evil species that worship evil gods are more than happy with their afterlife. Gnolls get to go hang out with Yeenoghu and the Party Vrock, having a wrecking ball in the Abyss. As a bonus, they also get to enjoy performances of The King. "Thank you, thank you. Thank you very much."

[Coidzor]

ugh forced alignment changes ive heard that set of arguments

Hey, it's a great thing. :smallwink: Also, the only really workable solution to the OP's problem.

All you gotta do is arrange for the right patsy to Sanctify the Wicked all of your evil populace and make the agent appear to them as if it were from whatever nation you want to go to war with or bogeyman of your choice so that the whole eternal enmity part works in your favor. XD Or just programmed amnesia away that part. All without a single [Evil] act. XD

Edit: Better yet, use Compel to make the entire populace to Lawful Evil and then Sanctify the Wickedness out of all of them wholesale, that way no one is singled out. :smallamused: Bonus points, it motivates the entire populace to be against whatever faction of your choice. And it lets you have a huge population on hand but without having to worry about actually having to feed them or anything while you rebuild, or even build a new, better city.

[rmnimoc]

(1) Pathfinder vampires can cross water. I believe I can fly.
(2) I'll pass on getting dissolved to form the next batch of Celestials, thank you.
(3) Pretty sure I get off of dinking blood now.
(4) Paragon Surge : Aversion Tolerance, Succeed Save.
(5) That's what Dominate at will is for. Or setting the house on fire.
(6) Which looks nicer on me, the tattoo or the ring?
(7) The kind that saves the world and lives forever.

(1,4,6)My bad I must have missed the part where paizo got a hold of Neverwinter.
(2) I meant go neutral, which is the default alignment you switch to from SK.
Also knowledge (the planes) is still an untrained skill, I'm unaware what part of "plane of idyllic good" or " All aspects of Celestia are beautiful and perfect" involves being dissolved. (I'm electing to ignore the CG planes where I know this happens.) Link or page?
(3) That sounds significantly less satisfying. Also I'm not seeing that mentioned or implied in any rulebook, and though my pathfinder knowledge is a bit sketchy, I wasn't aware they already had a BoEF.
(5) My internet is weird, and I can't follow those links, but having a 5% chance to recoil away from your stomache or otherwise do some sort of do some sort of acrobatic pirouette off the handle every time I want good food seems a bit unfortunate.
(7) That sounds boring.


The majority of evil creature's worship evil gods. Most Orcs, Most Kobolds, Pretty much all Chomatic Dragons, Tons of evil Humans, Most Goblinoids and most Drow all Worship evil gods.

The Kobolds afterlife for example takes place in the first layer of hell were they are given new fiendish forms and massive tunnels and no longer feel hunger. They consider this the perfect after life for them.

Bad afterlives tend to only happen if they don't worship a god or you go against the god's ways and teachings so they don't let you in to their afterlife and they go to the default ones for their alignment. (For neutral and evil characters these are pretty terrible.)

[1] I'll admit I'm a bit racist, but I tend to not count races where the alignment is "always evil" when I'm talking about people (since any race that pings always evil obviously has more motivations for being so than the simple things I mentioned), let alone members of an anti-evil town. I honestly didn't expect chromatic dragons, goblinoids, kobolds, or drow to decide to chill out there. Probably doesn't help I tend to see half of those as XP with languages and the third as a whey to make cheese. >.>
[2] I'll admit, I also tend run under the mistaken belief that Hell is hell applies to everything in Hell. Like I said earlier, untrained knowledge check. I must have also missed the part where most humans in Hell are just chilling out with evil gods who are secretly not evil to their people.
[3] When your greatest happiness is that you no longer feel hunger.....that almost sounds more like an animal's dream afterlife, not a sentient being's. :(
[3] Tons as in a large unspecified number or Tons as in Tons? Cause Tons of humans is only a few dozen people if they weigh around 150 lbs. I feel bad for Asmodeus either way though, he's totally getting cheated then. Oh well, at least he gets the elves (non-drow) and dwarves. :P
[4] A side note, everything I'm mentioning is almost solely based around this conversation unless stated otherwise. When I ignored dragons, goblins, orcs, or drow, it wasn't really cause I hate them (though I kinda do), it is because I didn't feel they had anything meaningful to contribute to this, where we were talking about people who would happily or unhappily live in a good city where anything that pings as evil is getting gladiatored. Also, according to most of the people on here, most people who are evil just pay lip service to their gods and not actually doing anything they say, which I imagine falls under "go against the god's ways and teachings". Unless your god is telling you to be a hypocrite. Then again they are evil.....
[5] Can you point out where it says hanging with an evil god in the afterlife isn't just them acting like the jerks they (as far as I know) are?


The King
O.o
o.O
o.o
I thought Elvis' alignment was True Rock? Regardless of the fact gnolls might be nothing but hound dogs, I'd imagine with a perform as high as Elvis he could find a patron in a better place than the abyss of weird and random junk.
If not than converting to CE is far more tempting now than ever before.

Note: Like I've said before all this is with untrained planar knowledge, if you see any flaws with what I'm saying point it out so I can explain what I'm saying, question what you are saying, or mumble nonsense.

[Coidzor]

Aye. Most evil species that worship evil gods are more than happy with their afterlife. Gnolls get to go hang out with Yeenoghu and the Party Vrock, having a wrecking ball in the Abyss. As a bonus, they also get to enjoy performances of The King. "Thank you, thank you. Thank you very much."

Eh? I was pretty sure Doresain broke with Yeenoghu. :smallconfused:

[Envyus]

[1] I'll admit I'm a bit racist, but I tend to not count races where the alignment is "always evil" when I'm talking about people (since any race that pings always evil obviously has more motivations for being so than the simple things I mentioned), let alone members of an anti-evil town. I honestly didn't expect chromatic dragons, goblinoids, kobolds, or drow to decide to chill out there. Probably doesn't help I tend to see half of those as XP with languages and the third as a whey to make cheese. >.>
[2] I'll admit, I also tend run under the mistaken belief that Hell is hell applies to everything in Hell. Like I said earlier, untrained knowledge check. I must have also missed the part where most humans in Hell are just chilling out with evil gods who are secretly not evil to their people.
[3] When your greatest happiness is that you no longer feel hunger.....that almost sounds more like an animal's dream afterlife, not a sentient being's. :(
[3] Tons as in a large unspecified number or Tons as in Tons? Cause Tons of humans is only a few dozen people if they weigh around 150 lbs. I feel bad for Asmodeus either way though, he's totally getting cheated then. Oh well, at least he gets the elves (non-drow) and dwarves. :P
[4] A side note, everything I'm mentioning is almost solely based around this conversation unless stated otherwise. When I ignored dragons, goblins, orcs, or drow, it wasn't really cause I hate them (though I kinda do), it is because I didn't feel they had anything meaningful to contribute to this, where we were talking about people who would happily or unhappily live in a good city where anything that pings as evil is getting gladiatored. Also, according to most of the people on here, most people who are evil just pay lip service to their gods and not actually doing anything they say, which I imagine falls under "go against the god's ways and teachings". Unless your god is telling you to be a hypocrite. Then again they are evil.....
[5] Can you point out where it says hanging with an evil god in the afterlife isn't just them acting like the jerks they (as far as I know) are?


1: Other then the Chromatic Dragons none of the races I named are always evil. Orcs are even often Chaotic Evil meaning Chaotic Evil orcs don't even take up the majority of them (Chaotic Neutral is the 2nd most common alignment)

2:Most Evil Gods don't live in hell only a few do (Tiamat and the Kobold God Kurtulmak are the two main ones) The rest are spread along other planes or have their own.

3: Tons as in a lot. Also Asmodeus is not getting cheated at all. He has a deal with all the gods that he gets their lawful evil followers and he has a contract that rewrote the universe that gives him this. Along with his devils going around corrupting and making deals he makes quite a killing on getting souls for hell.

Naturally some gods would still want the souls of their lawful evil followers generally the non good, non chaotic gods. Asmodeus collects Divine Energy for each soul tortured and turned into a Lemure. Divine energy fuels hell and makes it grow, It can be used to promote devils to more powerful forms and make devils just plain more powerful. There are 4 main ways for Hell to gain Divine energy. 1: Turn souls into Lemure Devils 2: Demote a devil into a lesser form 3: Worshipers of Devils give them Divine energy by worshiping them. 4: And the point I was building up to, Gods can also give divine energy to hell. All gods that want to keep the souls of their lawful evil followers have to buy the souls using Divine energy. So lots of gods have contracts with Asmodeus that says they get the souls of their followers but Asmodeus gets Divine energy from them in exchange. Tiamat and Kurtulmak have to pay even more Divine Energy as along with having lots of lawful evil followers they live in hell and so pretty much have to pay Asmodeus rent.

4: Nothing much to say

5: On the Hunger and promised afterlife thing. Kobolds are promised an afterlife by Kurtulmak. He is like most evil gods is obligated to give them the afterlife he promised them or else he will lose worshipers. Kobolds have a very lawful and work happy society as most of them are miners. Kurtulmak is a god of war and mining. The after life for them is they get to life is his great mines and work there and as they no longer feel hunger they don't have to stop working allowing them to mine and build forever. Added on most Evil gods do act like jerks but so do their followers so no big loss there.

[rmnimoc]

If I see a goblin, I tend to stab it, because even if they technically aren't always evil, I have yet to see an exception to the rule of usually. Same with kobolds. If I never give them a chance to say otherwise, I can say without lying that as far as I know they are all experience evil.
I didn't figure I'd have to list every individual plane for you to be satisfied but whatever. In my mind I call all lower planes hell and all upper planes are heaven unless I'm saying something that needs specifics, even if I know that isn't really the case.
I should have used blue for 3b. I forgot. My bad. I was saying it sarcastically to point out the fact he still gets most of the hellbound souls (hell as the specific plane).
They like to slave-work 24/7. That was just a way of pointing out that I don't count them for the purposes of the earlier post, because they fall under the "Still totally unrelated to the main point".
If I mention a race and I can say an evil religion and have a greater than 60% chance of being right, that counts as always that religion in my book. Drow are an exception to the rule.
The main point still stands under the condition: with regards to humans or beings with human-like mental processes and no default alignment.
Plus Kobolds sound like dragon-poodles in my head. That alone makes them evil.
I think we are deviating from the point though. Back to the city of goodness Anti-evil morally dubious alignment!

[Dread_Head]

If I see a goblin, I tend to stab it, because even if they technically aren't always evil, I have yet to see an exception to the rule of usually. Same with kobolds. If I never give them a chance to say otherwise, I can say without lying that as far as I know they are all experience evil.
I didn't figure I'd have to list every individual plane for you to be satisfied but whatever. In my mind I call all lower planes hell and all upper planes are heaven unless I'm saying something that needs specifics, even if I know that isn't really the case.
I should have used blue for 3b. I forgot. My bad. I was saying it sarcastically to point out the fact he still gets most of the hellbound souls (hell as the specific plane).
They like to slave-work 24/7. That was just a way of pointing out that I don't count them for the purposes of the earlier post, because they fall under the "Still totally unrelated to the main point".
If I mention a race and I can say an evil religion and have a greater than 60% chance of being right, that counts as always that religion in my book. Drow are an exception to the rule.
The main point still stands under the condition: with regards to humans or beings with human-like mental processes and no default alignment.
Plus Kobolds sound like dragon-poodles in my head. That alone makes them evil.
I think we are deviating from the point though. Back to the city of goodness Anti-evil morally dubious alignment!

Have you read Order of the Stick? (If not I suggest you click the link at the side of your screen because it's brilliant.) It repeatedly makes the point that killing someone just because of their species is inherently wrong whether that species may be usually evil or not.

And again your glossing over the point that 33% of any given population will be evil and of those most won't have committed evil acts. They just think a certain way for which they're going to be rounded up and taken to special conversion centres. They won't know themselves that they are evil and will most likely object rather strongly to be dragged off to have their mind probed / amended / whatever.

Also I generally view D&D cosmology in the sense that if balance is not preserved either way things go badly. So upsetting the balance by forcibly converting everyone to good seems a bad idea; it's only when everyone chooses good for themselves that good will finally triumph. Obviously not everyone shares this view.


First off, this isn't an average, already-functioning city (From what I hear) - it's one being rebuilt, and has the luxury of checking people as they immigrate in.

We don't know that, the OP hasn't really commented on it. Since his players seem to want to introduce this system I'm going to assume they will introduce it in a pre-existing city due to likely time constraints (ie building a new city would take ages of game time). I can't imagine that going well when somewhere up to a 1/3 of people will think they are being persecuted by the policy and much of the remaining population might disagree on moral grounds. Kinda seems the sort of situation where you're going to get dissent on the streets, riots and civil war. Of course you could use that of evidence of crimes and violently crush the dissent but that seems again fairly totalitarian.
If they're building the city up from scratch, even if they set up all of this wonderful infrastructure they're probably going to struggle to attract citizens. Firstly how will people know about it? I suppose you create a propaganda campaign to spread the word. Ok now they know it exists but its a big step in this world moving to another city and in the typical pseudo medieval D&D society moving would mean they probably won't ever see or speak to anyone they leave behind ever again. Let alone the increased difficulty in carting all their things with them. So they make the big decision and travel there. Where a certain percentage are going to ping as evil without knowing it. After being refused entry they're probably gonna travel away from the city giving it terrible reviews. I just don't think it would be particularly feasible to set up this city anew either.

[rmnimoc]

So the players in my group are now contemplating the idea of restricting the city they are rebuilding to "non evil" alignments.

To me rebuilding means they are basically starting from scratch population-wise, so that 33% doesn't seem as likely, and op will probably lose most of the mid level evils right there.

Anyway I still stand by a high diplomacy paladin convincing everyone that evil is a mental disorder as stated before. From there you can use Silverhair Knights to begin converting people who want to convert to good, once they go off about how great it is to repent for their sins and be good people, more will come. Paladins with diplomacy can convince most of the rest, and from there it is peer pressure. Tell people about how the very presence of evil hinders the great goals of good, and how you can help those people who are sick. With silverhair knights with the paladin patrols you can safely subdue the people who violently resist, and once they tell people the error of their ways it won't take long before all low level evil is taken care of. From there it isn't that hard to make the city uncomfortable for evil to be in, and when someone who has already purified falls again you can simply ask them about it once they are repurified. That will oust many corrupters and futher entrench good into the lives of many. For the obvious issues of people with undetectable alignment or criminals in the good and neutral catagories you will still have a standing guard, made easier by the lack of many petty crimes and the city itself being more predispositioned towards good than evil. With city officials spending time with the silverhair knights as well that will go a long way towards rooting out corruption.

If anyone sees something wrong with my post with regards to the actual purpose of this thread feel free to let me know. Because regardless of how you view the mental illness aspect of this, it doesn't have to be true. The city just has to think so.

Silverhair Knights, Dragon Magazine 315

[kalos72]

So the players in my group are now contemplating the idea of restricting the city they are rebuilding to "non evil" alignments.


I have said this, multiple times actually.

And again, I still dont know why people keep talking about Thought Police, no one is going to jailed because they THOUGHT about killing kittens. Although that person would be advised to seek help should the thought become deed later.

The idea is to find people why have DONE/PERFORMED evil acts...which makes them EVIL after all.

The player group is "good" and will not abuse the concept nor allow corruption of the system for anyones personal benefits.

So I THINK the final answer here is:
1. Antipathy zones at all the gates, entrances to major city structures, randomly throughout the city
2. Random Detect Evil patrols to identify potential troublemakers
3. React to crimes/incidents as they occur by a strong vigilant police force using magic to support as needed. I will have to check out that those Silverhair paladins.
4. Add "non-evil" to the recruitment drive letters for new citizens. :)

[rmnimoc]

Tada

Level
1
2
3
4
5

B. Attack
+1
+2
+3
+4
+5

F. Save
+2
+3
+3
+4
+4

R. Save
+0
+0
+1
+1
+1

W. Save
+2
+3
+3
+4
+4
Special
Awaken sins 1/day, Merciful edge
Blade of compassion +1d6
Awaken sins 2/day, Voice of serenity
Blade of compassion +2d6
Awaken sins 3/day, Consume sins

Hit Die: d6

Requirements:

Base Attack: +6
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Skills: Bluff (+8), Diplomacy (+8), Knowledge (religion) (+8), Sense Motive (+8)
Feats: Combat Expertise, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Weapon Focus (any sword)
(If you plan to use this in our campaign, please see our House Rules regarding feats)
Spells: Ability to cast 2nd level divine spells
Patron: Eilistraee
Special: A character who wishes to become a silverhair knight cannot have slain or have caused the death of a drow of any alignment at any time in her past. If the character cannot meet this requirement, she must receive an atonement from a cleric of Eilistraee before being accepted into this order; payment for this atonement usually requires going on a quest for the church.

Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Sense Motive, and Spot

Skill Points/Level: 2 + INT Modifier

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Silverhair knights gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Spellcasting
A silverhair knight continues training in divine magic, while practicing her other skills and abilities. When a new odd-numbered silverhair knight level is gained the character increases her spellcasting ability as if she had gained a level in a spellcasting class in which she belonged before she added this prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chances of turning or destroying undead, bonus feats and so on). If the character has more than one spellcasting class before becoming a silverhair knight, the player must decide to which class to add each silverhair knight level for the purpose of determining spellcasting when she adds the new level.

Awaken Sins:[Su]
A silverhair knight may cast awaken sins once per day as a supernatural ability. At 3rd level, she may use this ability twice per day, and at 5th level, she may do so three times per day.
Drow are particularly susceptible to this spell-like ability and suffer a -2 penalty on saving throws made to resist its effects.

Merciful Edge: [Ex]
A silverhair knight who ops to deal nonlethal damage with any sword she has the Weapon Focus feat in does not suffer the -4 penalty on the attack roll for striking to subdue with a lethal weapon.

Blade of Compassion: [Ex]
If a silverhair knight attacks an opponent with a sword she has selected for the Weapon Focus feat and she strikes to deal nonlethal damage, she can strike a vital spot for extra nonlethal damage. If the silverhair knight possesses the sneak attack ability, she can deal nonlethal sneak attack damage with the sword she has selected for the Weapon Focus feat (a character normally cannot deal nonlethal sneak attack damage with a weapon that does lethal damage), and additional nonlethal damage gained from this ability stacks with any additional nonlethal damage done with a sneak attack. Using the blade of compassion attack requires concentration and focus; the silverhair knight cannot wield a weapon in her off hand or use a shield when attacking in this manner, although she can use both hands to attack if the sword can be wielded two-handed. This attack is subject to all the restrictions of a rogue’s sneak attack, and is only effective against creatures that can suffer nonlethal damage.

Voice of Serenity: [Su]
At 3rd level, a silverhair knight’s voice takes on a strangely trustworthy and friendly lilt that soothes the suspicions and doubts of those with whom she interacts. She gains a +2 sacred bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks. Additionally, all enchantment spells she casts that have a verbal component gain a +1 sacred bonus to their save DC.

Consume Sins: [Su]
At 5th level, silverhair knights can perform a mysterious ritual to attempt to change the alignment of an evil fey, giant humanoid, or monstrous humanoid to neutral. The silverhair knight must maintain unbroken physical contact with the target for a number of minutes equal to the target’s Hit Dice. The target must be conscious for the duration, but need not be willing; usually such a target is kept tightly bound for the duration, but the silverhair knight can disguise what she is doing by making a Bluff check (opposed by the target’s Sense Motive check). A new Bluff check must be made each minute. At the end of this duration, the target suffers 10d6 points of nonlethal damage as the full weight of sins on his conscience overwhelms him.
Additionally, he must make a Will saving throw DC= 10 + the knight’s class level + the knight’s Charisma modifier) to resist having his alignment changed to neutral.
If the target makes the Will save to avoid alignment change, his alignment remains the same, but his sins overwhelm the caster and fill her with rage, sadness, and despair. The silverhair knight immediately gains a number of negative levels equal to half the target’s Hit Dice plus the target’s Charisma modifier. If this reduces the silverhair knight’s level to 0 or less, she immediately dies and rises within 24 hours as a ghost with the same alignment as the creature whose sins she last consumed. If the negative levels do not slay the knight, she instead lapses into a coma for 24 hours, at the end of which she awakens and must make Fortitude saving throws to keep the negative levels from becoming permanent (as normal with negative levels—see the Dungeon Master’s Guide page 293).
Negative levels gained through a failed use of consume sins can be removed normally with a restoration spell, but doing so frees these “undigested” sins and grants the original target a +1 profane bonus per negated negative level to skill checks, attack rolls, and Will saves for the next 24 hours. Once the 24 hour coma has passed, any negative levels that have become permanent can be restored with a greater restoration spell without effect on the silverhair knight or the target.
If the target fails the Will save to avoid alignment change, the sins are absorbed by the silverhair knight’s soul and obliterated by her purity and devotion to Eilistraee. The target’s alignment immediately changes to neutral, and the silverhair knight gains a +4 sacred bonus to her Charisma and a +1 sacred bonus to her caster level when casting spells with the Good descriptor. These bonuses persist for a number of hours equal to half the target’s Hit Dice plus the target’s Charisma modifier.
A creature whose alignment is changed to neutral by this supernatural ability is free to make its own choices regarding future actions. Most creatures see the error of their evil ways and do not return to their evil patterns of behavior. Many switch their alignment to match that of the silverhair knight out of gratitude for the service provided.
Consume sins is a mind-affecting supernatural ability and a fear effect. A silverhair knight may consume sins once per week. Drow are particularly susceptible to this spell-like ability and suffer a -2 penalty on saving throws made to resist alignment change. A single target can only be affected by an attempt to consume sins once per year.

Ex-Silverhair Knights: A silverhair knight that willingly causes the death of a drow (directly or indirectly) must seek out atonement for her deed within 24 hours; the atonement must come from a cleric of Eilistraee. If the silverhair knight does not atone in this time, if she acts grossly out of accordance with the teachings of the Dark Maiden, or if she becomes any alignment other than chaotic good, she looses all special abilities and granted spells from her silverhair knight levels. She may regain these abilities at a later date by accomplishing a major quest for the church and then receiving an atonement spell from a priest of Eilistraee or equal or higher level than her character level.
They are an awesome flavored class that no one ever knows.

[Captnq]

I've been having fun with this, but let's get serious for a moment.

I know evil.

I've commited evil. Never broke the law, mind you. But I have done evil things. Thousands have suffered by my actions. Why? My personal demons allowed me the "justification" to take my revenge on others for my pain. I won't go into details. Let's just say I've had my face sewn back on and be done with it.

And I've gotten past it.

I'm not the same man. I do good things. I'm not trying to balance the scales or anything. You can never make up for what you've done. Conversely, you can't make it better by punishing others. Punishing others is something society needs to do to protect itself. In America, justice is for the public good, not the individual. For right or wrong, that's the way it is.

That's the REAL WORLD.

This is a discussion about a GAME.

In the game, we have rules that are imposed on a simulation that at times resembles the real world, but it isn't. In D&D, evil exists as a tangible THING. You can actually touch evil. You can put it in a sack. It can infect your soul. Good can do the same thing. It's a happy thought that good exists and evil is something you can take a sword to. It's part of the reason to play.

Now, this discussion is about HOW to Evil Proof a city. We have done that. It has since moved on to discussions about the nature of evil in the game. Well, here's the answer:

It exists. It is an actual thing. It also comes in degrees. There is the puppy kicker, the demon worshiper, the ruthless business man, the cutthroat thief, and the bitter old man who just wants the damn kids off his lawn. These degrees are all evil.

When you evil proof the city, the problem is simple. You are abandoning these people. I was a good person. Horrible things happened to me. I turned evil and did horrible things. I got over it and became a good person. If you put me in your evil ghetto (which is what will happen. No matter how far you banish these people, there will be an evil ghetto somewhere.), there is less and less of a chance I would stop being evil.

Meanwhile the remaining good and neutral people will start to get nervious. Constantly wondering about, "Is what I'm doing evil? Will this get me sent to the evil ghetto?" I don't care how tolerant you are. I don't care how many second chances you give someone. SOMEONE will eventually remain evil, no matter what. Because the game REQUIRES it. It's in the rules. There is real and tangible evil.

That's when it starts. Slowly. Over time. An eventual slide away from "good" and eventually towards Dogma. You won't have a good city, you'll eventually have a Lawful neutral city. Then people will slowly come to the conclusion that Chaos is bad. Then we'll purge the chaotic people. Then the slide towards true neutral will begin.

That will be your eventual outcome. The middle will achieve balance. get rid of the evil, the good will fade. Not just because that's the nature of the REAL WORLD, but because the game mechanics demand it.

No reason not to do it, but it won't make the shining city on the hill that is the beacon of hope to all that the PCs want. It'll be the city on the hill, just like any other city. Except this city will be dull, and lifeless, and have no passion or creativity. It will be a hollow place of Dogma and Rules and Regulations as they try to create the perfect society.

You can't legislate people into being "good". You can nudge them. You can encourage them. You can't MAKE them.

There will not be a horrible outcome, there will be a pathetic outcome. The city will die by inches. It will fade to lifelessness and die as hope and dreams fade away in exchange for safety and security until the time comes where people forget there ever was a time when there was another way.

Some of you think THAT'S evil. But it's not. It riles against your nature, but there are reasons people are afraid. I am afraid. I am afraid of many things. I have self-esteem issues and you can tell me all day long that I should get out there and make friends, but the terror won't let me. People are dangerous. I can see why people might pick safety over liberty.

That's what this is about. It's not Good vs Evil. It's Safety vs Liberty. The evil people are a threat, but only a potential threat. If you want awesome stuff you need to take awesome chances. If you want safety, you need to avoid the dangerous things. Evil people are dangerous.

But if you build a city out of nerf, only children will live there.

[Dread_Head]

Ok, sorry I misunderstood what you meant by rebuild.

And it's thought police because you will be forcing people to undergo an incredibly invasive procedure (mind read) or be banished for the crime of thinking differently to you. How is that not thought police?
Additionally this basically singles people out for worse treatment due to how they think, again thought police.

And again not all people with EVIL alignments will have committed EVIL acts. and some people of neutral alignment will have committed EVIL acts but managed to remain neutral. This system unfairly bias against the first group and ignores the second. If you're using a strong vigilant police force with magical support why are the additional measures necessary.

Silverhair paladins look cool, and would certainly be able to help with conversion but awaken sins is only maximum 3/day and the consume sins is only 1/week and they would need to be at least 12th levelish to be able to use it. I think they can't enter til 7th at earliest? and how many 12th level characters with this specific class is the city going to have? is that many conversions a week going to cut it? Especially when you consider that there's a chance it will backfire horribly on the Silverhair paladin.

And since people don't know their own alignment adding non-evil to the recruitment posters isn't particularly helpful. You're still going to end up with people rocking up who will be turned away or forced to undergo mind probes. They won't be happy and will spread propaganda against the city.

And I think you're underestimating the ease of attracting people to this city. It's a big deal to uproot and move somewhere new even if you know that its a better place to live.

However those measures look like they'd be effective for keeping this city mostly evil free.

Edit: @Captnq I don't think this plan is evil really (depending on how its implemented, the current plan looks fine but the original suggestions of torture and forcing people to fight in arenas was) just misguided.

[kalos72]

I always THOUGHT there was some "Hand of Tyr" class or something that was all about finding out the truth, investigating injustice, righting of wrongs or something...cant find it now. Had special abilities to help find the truth in a matter...damn old age. :P

Repopulating is going to be hard. The city went from over 20k to under 5k. I will have to rebuild it physically and mentally...

Right now we have Thayvians, The Shades, An Asmodeus cult and an Aboleth lair nearby throwin thralls at us...joy oh joy.

[Captnq]

AH! I get it now. Okay. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma). It's the prisoner's dilemma. This is why your city is doomed.

Evil people commit mostly evil.
Neutral People commit Evil and Good based on the situation.
Good people only commit Good acts.

Well, guess what? If I can commit good OR evil, I'm much more adaptable o situations. Over time, the odds of succeeding socially improve if I lie, JUST A LITTLE. The good people are crippled. They can't go anything evil. But a neutral? He's good enough, but also a little bit evil.

Trust me. If you play by the rules, and I cheat, I'm going to win. Oh, maybe not every time, but over time, I'm going to win more then I lose. That's why your city is doomed.

Now leave the evil people there. Well, the neutral people have examples of what true evil is. It adds a new dimension to the conflict. Suddenly there isn't just success and failure, but guilt. Without the "threat" evil presents, there is no need to be good. Just be a little selfish and everything will be okay.

These are LONG TERM trends. They would not be noticed for decades, most likely.

[Envyus]

The fact that the only way to check if someone is evil is to break into their homes and scan them has been glossed over quite a bit. As it's impossible to tell who is evil and who is not in a crowd of people if you scan them and buildings can block the scan as well.

[rmnimoc]

The fact that the only way to check if someone is evil is to break into their homes and scan them has been glossed over quite a bit. As it's impossible to tell who is evil and who is not in a crowd of people if you scan them and buildings can block the scan as well.
Unless they intentionally arrange the streets in such a way that isn't the case. They are rebuilding the city after all.

[kalos72]

The Detect Evil being blocked is an issue...but with random checks...at random times...with wandering patrols checking...and the multiple Antipathy zones setup through out the city...with maybe even standing golems checking people who walk by...I think they will get caught at some point. Maybe not day 1 but...

Once you identify a "evil lair" just park a golem in front of it and wait... :)

[Scow2]

And again your glossing over the point that 33% of any given population will be evil and of those most won't have committed evil acts. They just think a certain way for which they're going to be rounded up and taken to special conversion centres. They won't know themselves that they are evil and will most likely object rather strongly to be dragged off to have their mind probed / amended / whatever. Actually, everyone who is evil HAS committed Evil acts. You'd be surprised what sorts of wickedness you can get away with in civilized society. They just tend to be large numbers of 'minor' evil acts easily rationalized away, as opposed to big ones. If it's 'thoughts' that are evil, it is thoughts they are spreading and acting upon that has a notable detriment to society (Such as most forms of bigotry). People IRL tend to get away with the acts of evil because it's impossible to determine motivation, extent, and other things without committing greater evil, defeating the purpose.

In a crowd, you can determine exactly who and how many are how evil within 18 seconds.

[The Oni]

1. I'm specifically taking about non-lethal rehabilitation for them, I'm not in the mood to watch the show, but from what I can see with wikipedia that is about murder and retaliating in defense, which has nothing to do with this. I'm well aware that all people are "capable of doing bad things at times". What I suggested isn't a punishment. The only pain it causes them is the pain of being aware of any wrongdoings of their own. That is part of the reason I specifically mentioned a rehabilitation which takes 10 minutes where the ability mentions people are grateful for. If I'm off the mark on that please let me know.

In that case, I'll summarize:

I believe "Evil as mental illness" was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Psycho-Pass deals with the phenomenon of "psycho-hazards," as in people "pinging as Evil" simply because they're stressed out in the presence of other Evil people/acts.

It deals with a guy who was "pinged" at the age of 3 as not merely Evil, but incurably so, and spends the rest of his life in an institution where he's only let out to fight other Evil people.

It deals with a villain who, inexplicably, can't be pinged. He murders innocents right in front of police officers, but never detects as anything south of Good, and this is a natural ability of his. (D&D actually *has* feats that do precisely this.) Later in the series? He passes out what amount to Helms of Undetectable Alignment to would-be thugs and criminals and they rampage through the city. When the attackers aren't pinged, people don't even know how to react anymore and think it's some kind of performance art; most of them have never even seen real violence before.

And yes, the rehabilitation that cures people of Evil sometimes causes them to wither and die, because they don't have enough mental stress to keep their lower brain functions active.

The point is, not only is your system morally flawed (because every human has a right to the contents of their own mind) but it's logistically flawed, even in the context of D&D. It's quite possible that magic could be an instant solution to this dilemma without the negative physical side effects - but your city would be at best a pale grey Lawful Neutral shell of its former self, at worst a barrel full of clueless fish ready to be riddled full of holes by some clever anarchist with an [x] of Undetectable Alignment and a gang of repressed rabble.

And, moreover, may I add that if you still don't see what's horrifyingly wrong with your proposed system that I pray to whatever higher powers exist that you never find government employment.

[Coidzor]

Psycho-Pass deals with the phenomenon of "psycho-hazards," as in people "pinging as Evil" simply because they're stressed out in the presence of other Evil people/acts.

Applying that to D&D is kind of an asspull. :/ Worse, it invites an entirely different alignment debate as to whether mood fluctuations or stress can actually cause that kind of false positive.

Frankly, I view a decision to include that in game as DM dickery territory, so it's only something that would be relevant in play if the DM is opposed to the plan. And if the DM is opposed to the plan then there's no chance of success anyway so discussion is largely pointless aside from possibly finding out *why* the DM opposes the plan and if compromise is possible or if a new game needs to be started instead.


It deals with a guy who was "pinged" at the age of 3 as not merely Evil, but incurably so, and spends the rest of his life in an institution where he's only let out to fight other Evil people.

The problem of whether a child that is not yet completely sapient can do enough Evil to ping as Evil is... largely academic and irrelevant to D&D barring some kind of twisted DMing. You get into the fuzzy area of ages of accountability and when children cease to be morally neutral like animals due to incompetence. Which is interesting grounds for debate, but just an unnecessary tangent here.


It deals with a villain who, inexplicably, can't be pinged. He murders innocents right in front of police officers, but never detects as anything south of Good, and this is a natural ability of his. (D&D actually *has* feats that do precisely this.) Later in the series? He passes out what amount to Helms of Undetectable Alignment to would-be thugs and criminals and they rampage through the city. When the attackers aren't pinged, people don't even know how to react anymore and think it's some kind of performance art; most of them have never even seen real violence before.

Yes, a dedicated villain is a threat, that's why you have adventurers, or, once you're in the Tippyverse, you have the very specialized apparatus in place to limit the impact of such things.


And yes, the rehabilitation that cures people of Evil sometimes causes them to wither and die, because they don't have enough mental stress to keep their lower brain functions active.

That's completely irrelevant to this situation, though. BOED rehabilitation allows for alignment change through simple conversation, Sanctify the Wicked has no health risk and in fact makes people that go through it healthier, or at least, harder to hit in combat.

All in all, it sounds like an interesting story, but largely inapplicable to the mechanical and moral base of D&D 3.X.


The point is, not only is your system morally flawed (because every human has a right to the contents of their own mind) but it's logistically flawed, even in the context of D&D.

It's quite possible that magic could be an instant solution to this dilemma without the negative physical side effects - but your city would be at best a pale grey Lawful Neutral shell of its former self, at worst a barrel full of clueless fish ready to be riddled full of holes by some clever anarchist with an [x] of Undetectable Alignment and a gang of repressed rabble.

Agreed, there is far too much reliance on the mundane and strong-arm tactics when magic is more efficient and less messy.

What do you mean "it's possible?" :smallconfused: It is an established fact that magic affords an easy solution to making everyone in a city Good provided a sufficiently powerful character.

I very much disagree with your assertion that simply changing everyone's alignment to Good means they no longer know about the outside world at all or your assessment of the security measures that would be in place if we were to go Full Tippy or even a reasonable fraction of Tippy.

[Cirrylius]

Evil people commit mostly evil.
Neutral People commit Evil and Good based on the situation.
Good people only commit Good acts.

Well, guess what? If I can commit good OR evil, I'm much more adaptable o situations. Over time, the odds of succeeding socially improve if I lie, JUST A LITTLE.

That's only if the system is closed. A continuing influx of good and neutral citizens will slow down a gradual moral decline even further, as well as providing a... a non-Eloi population that's at least peripherally able to handle stress.

Regardless, though, I don't imagine it's possible to remain a good society while forcibly re-educating evil people, but why do you need to? If someone pings, seize their civic property, provide (EQUAL) compensation, give the spouses and children the option of staying, and usher 'em out. Advertise a society free from the chains of sin, and watch the settlers roll in to replace them.

[The Oni]

All in all, it sounds like an interesting story, but largely inapplicable to the mechanical and moral base of D&D 3.X.

Even without getting into the inequalities of Evil vs. "criminal tendency," the third point still stands - it'd be no trouble at all for a man of means to kick this sandcastle over.


What do you mean "it's possible?" :smallconfused: It is an established fact that magic affords an easy solution to making everyone in a city Good provided a sufficiently powerful character.

I mean that it's possible. But again, "sufficiently powerful" is key, and that's when you get into the Gandalf Was A Level 6 Wizard argument. Yes, a Level 20 could do virtually anything, but even a Level 10 fighter is a legendary rarity in the Material Plane of most settings.


I very much disagree with your assertion that simply changing everyone's alignment to Good means they no longer know about the outside world at all or your assessment of the security measures that would be in place if we were to go Full Tippy or even a reasonable fraction of Tippy.

I don't mean to say that a Good character cannot know Evil, or even cannot fight Evil. I mean that if everyone in the city is Good, the citizens would not know Evil - or, at the very least, would not know it as anything other than something to be obliterated with extreme prejudice. They won't know what Evil is by sight, only by the little magical radar that tells them what to think (which is being fooled) and they won't have any reason to become fighters because Good fighters only fight Evil.

And when the villains walk in and ping as pure as the driven snow while they one-hit civilians with their vampiric crossbows of slaying, what will they do? What will they do when the radar doesn't go off? When the Detect-Evil-Bots ID them as peaceable folk and allow them to go about their business? They will realize the system is broke, that's what - but it'll be far too late by then.

[Scow2]

Just because you've not experienced something doesn't mean you have no idea what it is. A city like this could have a strong education system to ensure people are socialized and know that while the defenses against evil are potent, they aren't failsafe - and just because the "Common People" are ignorant of the full extent and actions of evil doesn't mean the Law Enforcement isn't.

Antipathy is a powerful effect. Even if you hide your alignment, you're still fully affected by the spell. It also has a VERY difficult-to-beat save. Even if you do make the save, it's still extremely uncomfortable - Will Partial, not Will Negates.

[The Oni]

Regardless, though, I don't imagine it's possible to remain a good society while forcibly re-educating evil people, but why do you need to? If someone pings, seize their civic property, provide (EQUAL) compensation, give the spouses and children the option of staying, and usher 'em out. Advertise a society free from the chains of sin, and watch the settlers roll in to replace them.

But Evil people have friends, too. What happens when your longtime buddy Jim is forcibly evicted from his house, handed a bag of gold, and you're told by the Sacred Order of St. Orwell that it's because his aura came up dark red? That kind of thing doesn't sit well with most people, I'd think.

[Coidzor]

Even without getting into the inequalities of Evil vs. "criminal tendency," the third point still stands - it'd be no trouble at all for a man of means to kick this sandcastle over.

Well, yeah, the current plan is bad and unrepentantly so, especially because the OP hasn't even responded to the advice they've received as to how to make it workable, not even to reject it as being too high powered. Or at least, if they have, then I managed to miss it.


I don't mean to say that a Good character cannot know Evil, or even cannot fight Evil. I mean that if everyone in the city is Good, the citizens would not know Evil - or, at the very least, would not know it as anything other than something to be obliterated with extreme prejudice. They won't know what Evil is by sight, only by the little magical radar that tells them what to think (which is being fooled) and they won't have any reason to become fighters because Good fighters only fight Evil.

Societies that have not known war on their soil are able to maintain their own military forces, and simply purging the city itself of common evil individuals does not secure the city against outside threats or the occasional rampaging monster or having to deal with the ramifications of the odd gryphon escaping and potentially mauling someone or having to be put down or contained.

Last I checked, even the OP was aware that Detect Evil can be fooled and was accounting for this, so your assumption about the admittedly flawed system is also flawed because you're not critiquing the system itself as it has been presented, but an even lazier, more flawed system that would never be successful enough to lull the citizenry into complacency anyway, without deliberate effort by those who could circumvent it to never do the sort of attention grabbing mass violence you're suggesting. :smallconfused:


And when the villains walk in and ping as pure as the driven snow while they one-hit civilians with their vampiric crossbows of slaying, what will they do? What will they do when the radar doesn't go off? When the Detect-Evil-Bots ID them as peaceable folk and allow them to go about their business? They will realize the system is broke, that's what - but it'll be far too late by then.

Even in the current plan, as bad as it is, there are still Paladins and Clerics and mundane guards mucking about, and if there's one thing Paladins know how to do when not detecting evil, it's sticking pointy sticks in things. Response times are always going to be an issue until you start getting pretty Tippy, though.

The flaw with having mindless constructs instead of intelligent constructs is part of why Shadesteel Golems are so popular for this sort of thing, since they're intelligent, powerful, and fit into all the places a human can. Also, the Rudimentary Intelligence feat.


But Evil people have friends, too. What happens when your longtime buddy Jim is forcibly evicted from his house, handed a bag of gold, and you're told by the Sacred Order of St. Orwell that it's because his aura came up dark red? That kind of thing doesn't sit well with most people, I'd think.

Far better to know that Jim's bad habits like beating his wife and children have been eliminated with Jim none the worse for it, aye. :smallwink:

[Captnq]

That's only if the system is closed. A continuing influx of good and neutral citizens will slow down a gradual moral decline even further, as well as providing a... a non-Eloi population that's at least peripherally able to handle stress.

Regardless, though, I don't imagine it's possible to remain a good society while forcibly re-educating evil people, but why do you need to? If someone pings, seize their civic property, provide (EQUAL) compensation, give the spouses and children the option of staying, and usher 'em out. Advertise a society free from the chains of sin, and watch the settlers roll in to replace them.

Yes. I agree. There are degrees to this. For example:

Lets take this to a limited scope.

Example 1: The Holy Church.

The holy church eliminates Evil people on holy ground.

Is that Bad? Well, over all, no. It does let people know who's evil and who isn't, however. (Hey Ed. I noticed you burst into flames last sunday when you tried to get in the church. Something going on we don't know about?) Lets face facts, in the Real World, people are snotty about going to church, and the big G ain't even granting spells. This is going to make friction. Will it destroy a city? No. But there will be the Holier-the-thou set, no question about it.


Example 2: The Evil Ghetto

Either in a select part of the city, or right outside, you allow the evil people to do buisness. We all know how well separate but equal worked in South Africa... The Deep south... The den of sin will become a true den of sin in no time. Sooner or later it will get BAD. Then it's time to chase them away.


Example 3: Holy City

Hey, no evil within a radius of say... 20 miles. If you are going to go get your freak on, it's going to outside the city's line of sight. Yay! Peace in our time! Except lets face facts, greedy people are good business men. I can't enter your city? I can't deal face to face? Time to go elsewhere. Take my goods somewhere else.

I'm a good king, but my son is evil? I do not believe you SIR! My son is a prince of my nation! You insult me! Your country and ours are now no long allies. Our trade agreement is null and void.

Now you are killing business. Slowly. It won't be a total colapse, but other nations will benefit from your high moral ground. All other things being equal, your city will find itself needing to work harder and harder to stand still. Hey, maybe you are sitting on a pile of gemstones. People won't care if there is true profit to be made. But if someone else has the same gemstones, more merchants are going to go where they are welcome, and not made to feel like the scum of the earth.

[The Grue]

Just because you've not experienced something doesn't mean you have no idea what it is. A city like this could have a strong education system to ensure people are socialized and know that while the defenses against evil are potent, they aren't failsafe - and just because the "Common People" are ignorant of the full extent and actions of evil doesn't mean the Law Enforcement isn't.

So not only does this society invade the minds of citizens without cause and whisk them away based on what they find, they now educate the people in Things To Watch For and how to tell if someone's secretly evil? Are they also encouraged to spy on their neighbours and report them to the Inquisition?

Its worth noting that NPCs who are capable of casting Detect Evil and the like are not exactly common. The overwhelming majority of the city's population is going to have to take the Inquisitor at his word that Joe Moustache did in fact detect as Evil and commit a string of grisly murders. Unless the city is populated entirely by Divine casters, anyway.

Point is, to the average commoner, the city guard is rounding people up based on some mystical mumbo-jumbo that might or might not be totally made up. Magic certainly exists, but there's no way for a mundane to tell whether someone's lying about having cast Detect Evil on their neighbour. I can imagine that breeding some resentment among the mundanes. Sounds like an anti-magic revolution waiting to happen.

[Scow2]

Its worth noting that NPCs who are capable of casting Detect Evil and the like are not exactly common. The overwhelming majority of the city's population is going to have to take the Inquisitor at his word that Joe Moustache did in fact detect as Evil and commit a string of grisly murders. Unless the city is populated entirely by Divine casters, anyway.Do you take every criminal trial at its face value? There's a lot of stuff that requires information. Of course, a Planar Ally or two (Or any lesser or greater version) to assist and aid in the verification process would help greatly.

Passive defenses against Evil are better than Active ones, but a few Active defenses to back up the Passive ones would go a long way into helping.

Also, they are demonstrably not being whisked away "Without Cause" - in fact, the cause is on a lot stronger ground than most legally-obtained exercises of Due Process.

[Coidzor]

Point is, to the average commoner, the city guard is rounding people up based on some mystical mumbo-jumbo that might or might not be totally made up. Magic certainly exists, but there's no way for a mundane to tell whether someone's lying about having cast Detect Evil on their neighbour. I can imagine that breeding some resentment among the mundanes. Sounds like an anti-magic revolution waiting to happen.

Which will end predictably poorly when confronted by a horde of angels (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbzUfV3_JIA).

Or, hell, a horde of angels and co-opting all of the religious authorities and potentially influential people who could capitalize upon that sort of sentiment to organize it could very well head it off to begin with.

[awa]

the thing i see about this is the party needs stupidly huge amounts of resources to pull this off for possible little real benefit.

If other nations have these kinds of resources and put them to work on something actually useful like military or infrastructure they will leave you in the dust.

You will be an economic non entity because first all your resources are tied up in thought police instead of say production or mining. second becuase you keep harassing merchants they will go elsewhere.

You will be in great danger from foreign powers becuase you have wasted so many resources and becuase you keep being a harassing diplomats or giving ultimatums about which diplomat are allowed in. which means you will be militarily weaker and have lots of enemies.

If word gets out that large numbers of your population are having there minds tampered with that's going to make all those problems exponentially worse.
You can claim your just making every one good but people don't think of themselves as evil and don't worry were only brainwashing you for your own good is not particularly compelling.

[Cirrylius]

I'm a good king, but my son is evil? I do not believe you SIR.
Eh. If you're going to have diplomatic problems, it might as well be for empirically demonstrable reasons.



Now you are killing business. Slowly. It won't be a total colapse, but other nations will benefit from your high moral ground.
I like to think that having a large good support network and a city largely free of crime and corruption would compensate for any trade that's driven off.

I'm not saying it WOULD, necessarily, I'd just like to think that.

[awa]

most crime is not caused by being evil but by poverty.
becuase you are greatly interfering with trade and wasting millions on thought crimes prevention rather then putting it into infrastructure and normal policing you will have tons of poverty and an ineffective police force relative to the amount of money you are putting into it, you may very well end up with more nonviolent crime then a normal city.

[kalos72]

most crime is not caused by being evil but by poverty.
becuase you are greatly interfering with trade and wasting millions on thought crimes prevention rather then putting it into infrastructure and normal policing you will have tons of poverty and an ineffective police force relative to the amount of money you are putting into it, you may very well end up with more nonviolent crime then a normal city.

Evil deeds and evil deeds....regardless of why they are done.

Again, a strong vigilant police force is primary and is already being worked on. But from a magical perspective, things like the Antipathy zones and detect evil sweeps are on top of that.

Adding in some TV, food/housing will be provided free. Education will be a major focus, even to the point of professions/class houses for he commoners. Everyone will be taught to read and will have access to huge libraries and Scholar’s Touch items to allow quick reading.

Education and the economy will be a major focus, trust me. Poverty wont be the cause for someone to perform an evil act.

And again to be clear, there has been a revision to the approach since the OP:
1. Antipathy zones at all the gates, entrances to major city structures, randomly throughout the city
2. Random Detect Evil patrols to identify potential troublemakers
3. React to crimes/incidents as they occur by a strong vigilant police force using magic to support as needed.
4. Add "non-evil" to the recruitment drive letters for new citizens. :)

[137beth]

Well, this thread has given me ideas for the villains of a campaign...