[3.5] Cleric vs Wizard Shadowcraft Mage

[Vash9177]

So for an upcoming high powered game I was looking to play a shadowcraft mage but I'm having trouble deciding on which base class to use.

A focused specialist wizard, banning enchantment, evocation and necromancy gets a lot of spells per day and with keen intellect I get a really good will save.

As a cleric I get a really good will and fort save a slightly better hit die, going Cloistered and the ability to cast silent image spontaneously with the PHII varient. Also DMM can be another way to cheese out Heighten.

For a little more information we are starting at level 10, early entry into shadowcraft mage is allowed as is any race as per the side bar for the class, we get feats at every odd level but no flaws, we are allowed to have four classes total no dipping past that though, Faerun only classes are banned so no Incantatrix or Shadowcrafter, and can't be evil. Also we get free la of +3 to use on races or templates for the wizard I was building it as a spellwarped human but I'm not sure what race/template combo to use for the cleric.

So given all that which makes for a more powerful shadowcraft mage?

[Ramza00]

A Shadow+Dark+Anthromoprhic Bat Cleric would be pretty cool. Good Wisdom, get effective improved invisibility while in darkness via shadow blend, boost to saves if you choose luck bonus of shadow creature, free flight, etc.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Wizards with Signature Spell (Silent Image) are, overall, going to be stronger Shadowcraft Mages than Clerics with Illusion Domain and Spontaneous Domain Casting, for a few reasons.

- You can enter Shadowcraft Mage at level 1 with a wizard with metamagic reducers, but it's impossible to enter Shadowcraft Mage any earlier than level 3 with a Cleric. Not that this matters much since you're starting at level 10 anyway, but it means you have 2 more level slots to fit in whatever additional PrCs you want.

- Wizards can take advantage of Arcane Disciple and other things to get additional spells they can emulate with Shadow Illusion (like Miracle): Clerics can't do this unless they dip Wizard.

- Wizards have more/easier access to things to help get around Spell Resistance, which is really important as an ScM since all shadow spells automatically allow SR.

- Wizards just have a better spell list overall compared to Clerics, as well as generally better PrCs. They can also get access to most of the important cleric-exclusive tricks have with a dip in Sacred Exorcist, albeit not until level 8.

That said, I'd strongly consider a Cleric-based ScM anyway. For one thing, even though these are real differences you're still a Tier 1 class, and ScM alone bridges most of the gap anyway (even though Wizards are better than Clerics at it in absolute terms, Clerics benefit far more in relative terms). DMM: Quicken is mighty tempting, and DMM: Heighten is hilariously broken if your DM lets you use it to get early access to spells (don't expect them to though). And I'm sure you know all about the various things you can do with Persist, though ScM doesn't synergize with persisting all too well unless you're somehow casting Shadow Miracles.

Also, every ScM and their mother plays a focused specialist wizard. Occasionally, you see a sorcerer. You never *ever* see clerics do it, and it has a really different feel from how wizard ScMs play. Not to mention much better RP and fluff potential: You've seen the dark and sinister illusionist wizard many times, but clerics that focus on illusions go against their expected type and are really quirky.

[Aegis013]

- Wizards can take advantage of Arcane Disciple and other things to get additional spells they can emulate with Shadow Illusion (like Miracle): Clerics can't do this unless they dip Wizard.

This point is often debated. Arcane Disciple says it adds it to your list, but the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration spells reference the [general] Sor/Wiz list. Ask your DM if s/he is ok with this. They may not be, and it's not perfectly explicit by RAW.

Also, curious how a Wizard can enter at second level.
I don't think Gnomes can get enough feats to do it with Precocious Apprentice + Earth Spell + Sanctum Spell (total of 6 feats at level 1 to enter that way) without crazy WBL and DCFS abuse.

[Craft (Cheese)]

This point is often debated. Arcane Disciple says it adds it to your list, but the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration spells reference the [general] Sor/Wiz list. Ask your DM if s/he is ok with this. They may not be, and it's not perfectly explicit by RAW.

Really? I thought the consensus was that it worked.


Also, curious how a Wizard can enter at second level.
I don't think Gnomes can get enough feats to do it with Precocious Apprentice + Earth Spell + Sanctum Spell (total of 6 feats at level 1 to enter that way) without crazy WBL and DCFS abuse.

If you use the interpretation of Metamagic School Focus that it can be used to lower more than one level at a time, it's easy: Heighten Net of Shadows to 4th-level, then use all three uses of MSS to lower it down to 1st level so you can cast it. Ta-da!

If not, then you can still do it but you need flaws: Heighten Spell, Precocious Apprentice, Metamagic School Focus (Illusion), and Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell). Heighten Dark Way to 4th level, which lowers to 3rd by Easy Metamagic, then lower it down to 2nd with Metamagic School Focus.

[Aegis013]

Really? I thought the consensus was that it worked.

I personally think it does, but I've seen it debated several times. So it's safer to ask the DM rather than just assume, use it, and potentially cause strife at a table over it.



If you use the interpretation of Metamagic School Focus that it can be used to lower more than one level at a time, it's easy: Heighten Net of Shadows to 4th-level, then use all three uses of MSS to lower it down to 1st level so you can cast it. Ta-da!

If not, then you can still do it but you need flaws: Heighten Spell, Precocious Apprentice, Metamagic School Focus (Illusion), and Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell). Heighten Dark Way to 4th level, which lowers to 3rd by Easy Metamagic, then lower it down to 2nd with Metamagic School Focus.

Yeah, those would work. Somehow I had never really paid much attention to Metamagic School Focus. That feat is surprisingly good.

[Vash9177]

Cleric does sounds like is has some fun role play possibilites. DMM to heighten spells above my level has be green lit by the DM. So I could get into the shadowcraft mage with 3 levels in cleric if my first three feats are heighten, dmm heighten, and spell focus. However I'm not sure what to take after I finsh shadowcraft mage are there other good classes that would add to what the character can do.

Also as for shadow Miracle my DM and I have talked and we agreed that it does work but I feel that it is probably to powerful to use in a game.

The Shadow+Dark+Anthromoprhic Bat also sounds pretty cool, I will look into it. Thanks.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Cleric does sounds like is has some fun role play possibilites. DMM to heighten spells above my level has be green lit by the DM. So I could get into the shadowcraft mage with 3 levels in cleric if my first three feats are heighten, dmm heighten, and spell focus. However I'm not sure what to take after I finsh shadowcraft mage are there other good classes that would add to what the character can do.

If you go the Cleric route, then Dweomerkeeper is the obvious choice: Though it'll take some work juggling the requirements into the right positions. You need Magical Training at level 1 to meet the arcane spellcasting requirement, but this pushes back your ability to qualify for ScM. The Spell Domain (with anyspell) might work, but then you have both your domains taken (the other by the Magic domain). You might be able to get away with Substitute Domain to trade your Illusion domain for one of the required ones (Spell or Magic), enter the class, then get it back, but I'd definitely not try that without clearing it with the DM first. Also, you need to get a crafting feat in there somehow.

[Vash9177]

Dweomerkeeper would be a strong option but it's out due to it's flavor all being set in Faerun. It is an amazing class though.

[Craft (Cheese)]

The Complete Divine version is setting-neutral.

[Vash9177]

My bad you are correct on it being setting-neutral, I was reading off of dndtools.eu and the class mentions Mystra and the weave but the web version does not.

To make getting in easier would it be worth taking wizard 1? Gets me the creation feat and arcane casting pre-reqs. Then go cleric 3 with illusion and magic domains. Followed up by shadowcraft mage 5 and then Dweomerkeeper 1 to start out at level 10.

Also if I'm reading the spell mantles correctly from Dweomerkeeper I don't even really need to use the illusion domain since I could spontaneously cast silent image from a mantle. Does working it out this way have a downside that I'm missing?

[Rebel7284]

With Divine Metamagic allowing higher level spells? 100% cleric. Whether or not you want to dip wizard is up to you, the built is so feat hungry it may be worth it. Also, consider getting multiple turning pools for more 9th level spells.

[Vash9177]

If I try going for high amounts of turning I think Dweomerkeeper would have to get tossed out, since I can only have 4 classes and without dipping I don't know of a way to get extra turning pools.

So far for the cleric feats I definitely need are heighten, dmm heighten, spell focus, Residual Magic, earth sense, and earth spell. So if I go human I have 5 feats to play with if I go another race I have 4 left.

[Craft (Cheese)]

My bad you are correct on it being setting-neutral, I was reading off of dndtools.eu and the class mentions Mystra and the weave but the web version does not.

To make getting in easier would it be worth taking wizard 1? Gets me the creation feat and arcane casting pre-reqs. Then go cleric 3 with illusion and magic domains. Followed up by shadowcraft mage 5 and then Dweomerkeeper 1 to start out at level 10.

Also if I'm reading the spell mantles correctly from Dweomerkeeper I don't even really need to use the illusion domain since I could spontaneously cast silent image from a mantle. Does working it out this way have a downside that I'm missing?

You need to be able to cast the spell to make it part of your mantle of spells. If you choose an arcane spell as part of your mantle, you can only spontaneously cast it using arcane spell slots (meaning even with that wizard dip you still need the Illusion/Gnome domain). So all you're really getting here is the arcane casting and scribe scroll to qualify for dweomerkeeper, and you're paying for it with a lost caster level. Not worth it, IMO.

Anyway if you're ditching the Dweomerkeeper route, for PrCs I'd go with Sacred Exorcist (be sure to take the Rebuke Dragons ACF so your turning pools stack), maybe Divine Oracle (ask your DM if you can use the Frog God's Fane to get Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion)) for 2000 gp), and definitely Contemplative once you hit level 11.

[Vash9177]

Thats what I get for reading to quickly :smallredface: I agree the dip for the feat isn't that great. As for other ways in Magical Training is out, I was incorrect on what was allowed feats, classes, and items that are only in faerun books are not allowed. Also he was did not agree with having the spell domain to qualify and then switching it out for illusion. So I think an arcane dip might be the only way into it, would dipping Dread Necromancer be worth a level for the second turning pool? Then I would just have to find room for the item creation feat which I think I could work in at 9th level and then take either earth spell at 11th or take the item creation feat at 7th and Residual Magic at 11th.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Thats what I get for reading to quickly :smallredface: I agree the dip for the feat isn't that great. As for other ways in Magical Training is out, I was incorrect on what was allowed feats, classes, and items that are only in faerun books are not allowed. Also he was did not agree with having the spell domain to qualify and then switching it out for illusion. So I think an arcane dip might be the only way into it, would dipping Dread Necromancer be worth a level for the second turning pool? Then I would just have to find room for the item creation feat which I think I could work in at 9th level and then take either earth spell at 11th or take the item creation feat at 7th and Residual Magic at 11th.

If you don't want to be good-aligned and were intent on taking that second turning pool anyway, then that might not be too bad of an idea. Here's how I'd do it: Human Cloistered Cleric (Illusion, Magic, Knowledge) 3/Dread Necromancer 1/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Dweomerkeeper 3

You unfortunately can't start with Supernatural Spell this way, but your feat progression should look like this:

1 - Heighten Spell
H - DMM: Heighten
3 - Spell Focus (Illusion)
5 - Scribe Scroll
7 - Earth Sense
9 - Earth Spell
11 - Residual Magic

From then on, take Extra Turning or whatever else happens to suit your fancy. I'd suggest taking Contemplative at some point for the Undeath Domain, but your DM's houserule against more than 4 classes in 1 build prohibits that. Maybe consider Planar Touchstone?

[Vash9177]

So after talking more to my DM about I can use Substitute Domain on the Knowledge domain I'd get from cloistered cleric and use that to get the spell domain, he misunderstood and thought I wanted to sub magic or illusion out when I asked him before.

So I can now go cleric 3 / shadowcraft mage 5 / Dweomerkeeper 2 to start with. Is there a race better than human to start with? I'm pretty tight on feats so I'm leaning toward no. As for templates Dark looks pretty nice since with planar bubble I'll get the benefits of the shadow plane, any others that would be worth it for the 2 LA I still have to play with.
Shadow is out due to them being CN normally.

Also what are good spell to put into the keepers mantle other than silent image?

[Aegis013]

Human Cloistered Cleric (Illusion, Magic, Knowledge) 3/Dread Necromancer 1/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Dweomerkeeper 3


Is there a race better than human to start with?

Gotta be a Gnome, unless your DM houserules it otherwise. None of the Gnomes get a bonus starting feat, but Whisper Gnome is a fairly strong (and flavorful/thematic) choice.

[Vash9177]

Dm is alright with me using the variant from the sidebar adaptation section at the top of pg 121 in races of stone which doesn't restrict race but if I had to go gnome whisper would be pretty nice.

[Craft (Cheese)]

So after talking more to my DM about I can use Substitute Domain on the Knowledge domain I'd get from cloistered cleric and use that to get the spell domain, he misunderstood and thought I wanted to sub magic or illusion out when I asked him before.

So I can now go cleric 3 / shadowcraft mage 5 / Dweomerkeeper 2 to start with. Is there a race better than human to start with? I'm pretty tight on feats so I'm leaning toward no. As for templates Dark looks pretty nice since with planar bubble I'll get the benefits of the shadow plane, any others that would be worth it for the 2 LA I still have to play with.
Shadow is out due to them being CN normally.

Sweet. I'd recommend going Cleric 3/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Dweomerkeeper 4 instead, since Supernatural Spell is better than Powerful Shadow Magic (which you'll want eventually of course but priorities being what they are). Unfortunately, human is the best race for you since there's no other way to make this build get all of its pre-reqs in time without flaws. I don't mess with templates all that much, but I'll look around and see what looks juicy.

EDIT: Consider the Half-Fey template (Fiend Folio pg. 89): LA +2, great ability modifiers for you (+2 DEX, +2 WIS, +4 CHA, -2 CON), flight speed equal to twice your base speed (and with sweet butterfly wings), and a pretty good selection of SLAs too: Charm Person at-will, Suggestion, Confusion, Dominate Person, and others. As a bonus, you gain immunity to all enchantments. Their alignment is Usually Chaotic (Any) since your DM seems to have a problem with Usually Neutral Evil for some reason.


Also what are good spell to put into the keepers mantle other than silent image?

Silent Image is unnecessary since you have Spontaneous Domain Casting. As for other good spells, I'm a big fan of Dispel Magic (and its Greater cousin) and Dimensional Anchor (never underestimate the power of ruining your DM's plans to make an annoying NPC into a recurring villain). Make sure you get your last Mantle of Spells spell after you get 9th-level spells, as Spontaneous Miracle is awesome beyond words.

[Vash9177]

I know Supernatural Spell gets really crazy with certain spell but what is the reason to make sure you get it that early. I thought most of the crazy uses were when you got higher level spell?

Also he normally allows any alignment but he wanted to try restricting evil for this one. Half fey does look really cool.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I know Supernatural Spell gets really crazy with certain spell but what is the reason to make sure you get it that early. I thought most of the crazy uses were when you got higher level spell?

The *best* uses are with high-level spells (e.g. Miracle and Gate) but it's a very powerful ability at all levels of play. Ignore all components (including verbal and somatic components), automatically ignore SR (esp. useful as an ScM), and never worry about getting dispelled. There's not a single spell in the game that doesn't benefit from this. Even 1/day, I'd say it's more valuable than +20% quasireality to all of your shadow spells.


Also he normally allows any alignment but he wanted to try restricting evil for this one. Half fey does look really cool.

What I meant was, I don't see why the "Usually Neutral Evil" Shadow template couldn't belong to a Good (or even just Neutral) creature. But his game, his rules I suppose.