PF rogues and sneak attacks

[Exirtadorri]

Ok guys,

I have a couple of questions about rogues for Pathfinder. Maybe these are stupid ones but I honestly feel that they are causing problems in my game and I need to find the black and white rulings. If you could give me LINKS to the rulings or wherever you found the stuff please do, it would help immensely

1. Can a rogue get his sneak attacks off on every attack he makes in a round or only the first. I'm getting mixed feelings about this and how broken it is blah blah blah.

B. Does being flanked actually give you the flat-footed condition? I know in the rogue section it says you may sneak attack a flat-footed person, and you may sneak attack when they are flanked. Does that mean flanked causes flat-footed. I need to know for the purpose of CMD and attacks of oppurtunity.

Thanks again guys for the infinite wisdom this board brings to the table. It's at least a 14

[Gorfnod]

1. You can sneak attack every attack as long as the individual attacks meet the conditions of a sneak attack.

2. Flanking does not make your opponent flat-footed. It is simply an additional condition that allows for sneak attack damage.

[Exirtadorri]

I appreciate the answer, but do you have a link or source for the information? That is the big part of what i'm asking.

[Eldest]

1. Can a rogue get his sneak attacks off on every attack he makes in a round or only the first. I'm getting mixed feelings about this and how broken it is blah blah blah.

Broken it is not. They get 3.5 bonus damage on each attack every other level. Compare to a barbarian, who at level 1 gets 6 bonus damage on each attack (strength mod of 4*1.5, assuming two-handing a weapon and a barbarian who maxxed strength), and which goes up at a similar rate. A ton of d6s looks impressive. It is actually less so.

[Psyren]

The rules cite for the first one is right in the sneak attack ability:


The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

That "anytime" is the key - it means every single time a required condition is met. so you full-attack - on each attack the game says "is the target flanked, or are they denied their Dex to AC?" If the answer is yes, you get SA.

This matters because the conditions can change at any time, even mid-attack. Say a rogue has the invisibility spell up and full-attacks - for his first attack, the opponent will be flat-footed and so he will get SA, but for all the others the invisibility is broken and the enemy will know he is there.

Your second question has a flawed premise:


Does that mean flanked causes flat-footed.

This is the problem with your question, you are making a leap of logic that does not exist.

"A causes sneak attack"
"B causes sneak attack"
"Therefore A = B."

It does not follow. It's like saying a train is equal to a plane because they can both transport you a long distance, but they are of course very different.


Broken it is not. They get 3.5 bonus damage on each attack every other level. Compare to a barbarian, who at level 1 gets 6 bonus damage on each attack (strength mod of 4*1.5, assuming two-handing a weapon and a barbarian who maxxed strength), and which goes up at a similar rate. A ton of d6s looks impressive. It is actually less so.

Not to mention that in PF it's not that hard to start with 20 Str (or even 22 if Orc) if you really want to as well.

[Runeclaw]

The potential difficulty in citing exact sources for you is that you're asking for proof of a negative.

Sneak attack isn't limited to the first attack your turn because nothing says that it is.

Flanking doesn't cause flat-footedness because nothing says that it does.

[Gorfnod]

To clarify I present the following.

1. The definition of sneak attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue#TOC-Sneak-Attack) it self says that " rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target." The word "anytime" is what allows all of your attacks to have the extra damage as long as they meet the required conditions.

2. Sneak attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue#TOC-Sneak-Attack) can only be accomplished when a target is denied Dex to AC or when they are flanked (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Flanking). There is no mention of being flat-footed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Flat-Footed)but being flat-footed does deny you your Dex to AC so it does meet this requirement. I bring up this definition because there is no tie between being flat-footed and flanking in sneak attack.

[Barstro]

This matters because the conditions can change at any time, even mid-attack. Say a rogue has the invisibility spell up and full-attacks - for his first attack, the opponent will be flat-footed and so he will get SA, but for all the others the invisibility is broken and the enemy will know he is there.


Psyren, do you have a link for that? I seem to recall this exact subject being debated on the forums recently. (Biggest argument in favor of all attacks being "some invisible person just attacked you, you are too flustered to put up a real defense in such a short bit of time").

[Psyren]

Psyren, do you have a link for that? I seem to recall this exact subject being debated on the forums recently. (Biggest argument in favor of all attacks being "some invisible person just attacked you, you are too flustered to put up a real defense in such a short bit of time").

Invisibility drops when you attack, it's right there in the spell. A full-attack consists of multiple attacks.

[Greenish]

Psyren, do you have a link for that? I seem to recall this exact subject being debated on the forums recently. (Biggest argument in favor of all attacks being "some invisible person just attacked you, you are too flustered to put up a real defense in such a short bit of time").The "too flustered to put up a defense" is why there's such a thing as a surprise round, which Invisibility much helps to pull off.

[Karoht]

Also, you are flat footed until you take an action on your initiative. In other words, if you go first and manage to strike your first (before they act), the target is automatically flat footed towards that attack. Unless your enemy got a surprise round on you.
It pays to strike first and strike hardest. Any idea how many fights I've ended by winning initiative?

[Fax Celestis]

The "too flustered to put up a defense" is why there's such a thing as a surprise round, which Invisibility much helps to pull off.

Surprise round is its own mechanical function, which is discrete from the invisible condition.

Each attack checks on an order-of-operations sort of pseudocode:
IF: Invisible
AND: Attack
THEN: Sneak Attack, break invisibility

[Psyren]

Each attack checks on an order-of-operations sort of pseudocode:
IF: Invisible
AND: Attack
THEN: Sneak Attack, break invisibility

Basically this is how it works. (Though add "and undetected" to invisible, to account for monsters with see invis/blindsight/etc.)

[Fax Celestis]

Basically this is how it works. (Though add "and undetected" to invisible, to account for monsters with see invis/blindsight/etc.)

Note that the same holds true for other status conditions:

IF: Flat-Footed
AND: Attack
THEN: Sneak Attack

IF: Flanked
AND: Attack
THEN: Sneak Attack

Note, however, how neither of these have the 'break' condition that invisibility does (and indeed, doesn't have for things like greater invisibility).

[Greenish]

Surprise round is its own mechanical function, which is discrete from the invisible condition.Yes. I was pointing out that that's the way to represent, well, being surprised.

[nyjastul69]

It's worth noting that not all creatures that are flat-footed are denied their dex bonus to AC. This is usually the case, but not always.

[Spore]

Due to the powerful nature of most other standard classes, the rogue is FAR from being overpowered. A simple fighter out-dprs even a TWFing rogue in flanking position. Adding insult to injury, if the monster moves and you have to use more than two steps to get back into flanking, you loose out on all iterative attacks of TWF.

Believe me, sneak attacks are by far the worst aspect of rogues.

[Karoht]

Due to the powerful nature of most other standard classes, the rogue is FAR from being overpowered. A simple fighter out-dprs even a TWFing rogue in flanking position. Adding insult to injury, if the monster moves and you have to use more than two steps to get back into flanking, you loose out on all iterative attacks of TWF.

Believe me, sneak attacks are by far the worst aspect of rogues.
Ranged Sneak Attack builds are fun. In theory that is.

I recently tried out 3 levels of Ninja (For Bewildering Koan + Sneak Dice) and 6 levels of Soundstriker Bard. Using Weird Words as a platform for delivering Sneak Attacks is a bit tricky (hard to do ranged attacks and cause targets to be flat footed reliably), but once it gets going it's pretty awesome. 1D8 +Cha (fort save for half) then add 2D6, do that 6 times, scales up to 10 times, hits touch AC's (and by extention, flat footed touch AC's). But thats a bit of a bizarre build that one.

Bow/Gun Rogue as a means of delivery? I tried it for a while, maybe I was doing something wrong or rolling very poorly, but I was always lagging behind the party until about level 10 or so.