ShadowPounce vs. PouncePounce (and spring attack)

[GhengisConrad]

ShadowPounce: Any time she uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, her shadow ride ability), she can execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation.

Pounce: When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack

Spring Attack:As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.

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Why I've always loved shadow pounce is because, I think its cool to get the drop of some schmuck and blast him with a full iterative of and then a clutch of natural weapons.

With Spring Attack, you don't take attacks of opportunity anyways, so why shadowjump behind someone when you can just charge at them and gain the same effect?

[GreenETC]

Well, for one, Spring Attack isn't a charge, so it doesn't work with Pounce.

That would probably be a good reason why Shadow Pounce is better.

[DeltaEmil]

@GreenETC: You can't use Spring Attack with Shadow Pounce either, since Spring Attack requires a full-round action, not a full attack action.

@GhengisConrad: Spring Attack is a trap and useless for both Pounce and Shadow Pounce.

[Darrin]

@GreenETC: You can't use Spring Attack with Shadow Pounce either, since Spring Attack requires a full-round action, not a full attack action.


Spring Attack doesn't use a full round action. It uses a move action and an "attack action", which in most cases has to be a standard action attack. This annoys many people, who would prefer it was worded like Flyby Attack, which can be used with any standard action, such as breath weapons, spells, maneuvers, etc.

However, there may be a useful quirk in the way Spring Attack is worded, since a full-round attack also counts as an "attack action". If you can get another move action for yourself, such as the hustle power, Marshall ability, Tempo Bloodspike, etc., you can use Spring Attack to move + full attack + move.



@GhengisConrad: Spring Attack is a trap and useless for both Pounce and Shadow Pounce.

Shadow Pounce is activated by a [teleport] effect. It requires whatever action you need to teleport, and this can include standard, move, or swift actions. In fact, if you used something like dimension hop or the Shadow Blink maneuver as a swift action, you could also use Spring Attack.

Pounce probably works best with Battle Jump (Unapproachable East), which... well, it's not entirely clear what exactly Battle Jump does, but with a cooperative DM you could argue that any movement that results into a fall on top of your opponent turns into a charge attack.

In Sword & Fist, theres a feat called Mantis Leap that can turn a jump (move action, Sudden Leap, etc.) into a charge. Unfortunately, it requires 7 levels of monk, which of course is 7 levels too many. To get that and Pounce on a monk chassis requires at least two other feats, Shape Soulmeld: Sphynx Claws and Open Least Chakra: Hands. Still not sure it can salvage 7 levels of monk, though.

[GhengisConrad]

does shadowpouncing provoke an attack of opportunity then?

If spring attack is so poopy, is there a way to charge without provoking an attack of opportunity from your victim?

Also, all my builds have non-magic flight. If I use flyby attack then I get the same goodies as shadowpounce?

[Urpriest]

does shadowpouncing provoke an attack of opportunity then?

From who? Which part of it? Shadowpounce is an ability that lets you perform one action after performing another one, it just has the AOO-provoking capabilities of those two actions.



If spring attack is so poopy, is there a way to charge without provoking an attack of opportunity from your victim?

You never do, unless your opponent has reach.



Also, all my builds have non-magic flight. If I use flyby attack then I get the same goodies as shadowpounce?

No, as you well know, Flyby Attack explicitly mentions standard actions, charging is not a standard action. Did you mean to ask about a different feat, but get the names mixed up?

[GhengisConrad]

so... what really is the advantage of ShadowPounce that makes it so much better than Pounce? Almost... nothing?

[danzibr]

so... what really is the advantage of ShadowPounce that makes it so much better than Pounce? Almost... nothing?
You can get multiple per round. Standard, move, swift.

[Greenish]

so... what really is the advantage of ShadowPounce that makes it so much better than Pounce? Almost... nothing?Charging has rather strict action and movement requirements, while shadow pounce is, well, teleporting around.

[Piggy Knowles]

Also, charging is REALLY easy to foil. Difficult terrain, lockdown fighters, miss chances/sight obscuring, Steadfast Boots, Hold the Line, immediate action teleportation... All of these things completely ruin a charger's day, while a shadowpouncer more or less ignores them.

[OldTrees1]

so... what really is the advantage of ShadowPounce that makes it so much better than Pounce? Almost... nothing?

The advantage of ShadowPounce is that you get 1 full attack per teleport per round (3 or more full attacks per round)

The advantage of Pounce is that it is achieved earlier and many more DMs will allow Pounce than will allow ShadowPounce(3+ Full Attacks per turn).

[Frozen_Feet]

ShadowPounce should also trivially allow for attacking multiple different targets in a round, limited only by range of your teleportation magic, which is a rather big bonus.

[GhengisConrad]

Also, charging is REALLY easy to foil.

I'm really interested in exploring this dynamic.


Difficult terrain.

If I'm flying... this isn't a problem anymore, no?



lockdown fighters
This is really only a problem if I plan on leaving the fight, right? If I stay with a guy; it's good then eh?


miss chances/sight obscuring
Isn't this a non-unique problem?



Steadfast Boots, Hold the Line, immediate action teleportation... All of these things completely ruin a charger's day, while a shadowpouncer more or less ignores them.

These I'll have to grant you. Though, is it worth the levels and feats required to get shadowpounce? In those levels and feats, I'd have to imagine you can bolster you charges.. .somehow... now?

[Urpriest]

This is really only a problem if I plan on leaving the fight, right? If I stay with a guy; it's good then eh?

It's also a problem if you can't get to the guy in the first place.



These I'll have to grant you. Though, is it worth the levels and feats required to get shadowpounce? In those levels and feats, I'd have to imagine you can bolster you charges.. .somehow... now?

Yes and no. Three full attacks per turn is hard to get otherwise, especially in a reproducible way. And teleportation is nicer than flight, pretty straightforwardly, and in ways that non-teleporting movement has a hard time comparing to. That said, it's all going to depend on the individual build, and whether it can get the benefits another way.

One thing to think about, though: in general, Shadowpouncing isn't an ability that you pick up to fulfill another concept (like, "effective melee"). Rather, it's a concept in itself. You want to be a teleporting combatant, and you pick up Shadowpouncing because it's the most effective way to do that.

[Gemini476]

Two questions: which PrC is Shadow Pounce from, and can it be used with Greater Teleport?
Because that's quite an interesting way to scry-and-die.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm really interested in exploring this dynamic.

If I'm flying... this isn't a problem anymore, no?

Yes, flying does mean you don't have to worry about difficult terrain. It's worth mentioning that ANYTHING that impedes, slows or blocks your movement prevents you from charging, though, not just difficult terrain.


This is really only a problem if I plan on leaving the fight, right? If I stay with a guy; it's good then eh?

Not at all. Enemies that lock down areas tend to focus on AoOs, large threatened areas, and ways of impeding movement (whether by Improved Trip/Knockdown, Stand Still, various Crusader maneuvers, or what have you). Chargers are particularly vulnerable to this.


Isn't this a non-unique problem?

To some degree, yes. But in order to charge, you must have line of sight to your enemy at the start of your turn, so simple things like Obscuring Mist can totally screw over a charger, while a shadowpouncer can close the distance and still full attack.


These I'll have to grant you. Though, is it worth the levels and feats required to get shadowpounce? In those levels and feats, I'd have to imagine you can bolster you charges.. .somehow... now?

Well, yeah. Chargers can do thoroughly ridiculous damage by devoting those same resources to boosting charge damage. But most of those damage triggers tend to only work on a charge (Valorous, Shock Trooper, Headlong Rush, Leading the Charge, etc.), and as I've mentioned, there are a bunch of ways to fool charging.

Shadowpouncing, on the other hand, tends to be more tactical. Shadowpouncers don't care about terrain. Shadowpouncers often don't care much about line of sight. Shadowpouncers don't need the most direct path between them and their target to be perfectly unimpeded. Shadowpouncers can position themselves to pick up flanks if they want, or move from enemy to enemy. And, most importantly, shadowpouncers don't need a full round action to shadowpounce.

That last one is the biggest. In addition to easily meaning 3 full attacks in a round (or more, with cheese), it also just presents a lot more in the way of versatility. If I take a two-level dip into totemist to give me DimDoor as a move action at will, that means that every round I can spend my standard and swift action doing whatever I want, and still full attack. I've currently got a ToB shadowpouncer in the wings that uses the Shadow Blink and Shadow Stride maneuvers. The freedom to use my standard action for maneuvers, and use my swift/move actions for damage, is kind of fantastic.

But without cheese, shadowpouncers don't deal as much damage as straight up uberchargers. Without anything too cheesy, I can put together a standard charger that deals damage in the 300s range by level 6. And I can tack on ubercharging on top of basically any other build with a minimum investment, whereas I usually need to base an entire build around shadowpouncing. So yeah, they've each got their pros and cons.

[OldTrees1]

Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles View Post
Steadfast Boots, Hold the Line, immediate action teleportation... All of these things completely ruin a charger's day, while a shadowpouncer more or less ignores them.


These I'll have to grant you. Though, is it worth the levels and feats required to get shadowpounce? In those levels and feats, I'd have to imagine you can bolster you charges.. .somehow... now?

Immediate action teleport hurts both but Chargers can get around it with nonstraight charges via Drunken Master 2 (also negates all AoOs from the movement thus defeating Hold the Line)

Steadfast (free readied attack against a charge) is a problem if they have a 2handed reach weapon and decide to try to halt your movement (trip/standstill). However a good strength beats Trip and Elusive Target/High AC/Good Ref beats Standstill.

[Piggy Knowles]

Two questions: which PrC is Shadow Pounce from, and can it be used with Greater Teleport?
Because that's quite an interesting way to scry-and-die.

Shadow pounce triggers off of any teleportation, so yes, that would work.

There are four sources of shadow pounce and similar effects that I know of:


The level four ability of Telflammar Shadowlord1,
The level five ability of Crinti Shadow Marauder2,
The level ten ability of Blade of Orien3,
The Sun School feat4.


1Unapproachable East.
2Shining South.
3Dragonmarked. Only works with the swift action dimension leap granted by your class/dragonmarks.
4Complete Warrior. Only allows a single unarmed strike after each teleportation, although things like Snap Kick and Planar Touchstone (Oryxynxdfoaihfa) can add on extra attacks.


Immediate action teleport hurts both but Chargers can get around it with nonstraight charges via Drunken Master 2 (also negates all AoOs from the movement thus defeating Hold the Line)

Steadfast (free readied attack against a charge) is a problem if they have a 2handed reach weapon and decide to try to halt your movement (trip/standstill). However a good strength beats Trip and Elusive Target/High AC/Good Ref beats Standstill.

Immediate action teleport can hurt any melee attacker, but it completely breaks charges without an ability like Drunken Master's stagger thanks to the various charging restrictions.

But sure, you can get around most individual ways of breaking charges, but only by investing as much or more as a shadowpouncer needs to pick up shadowpounce - and it's still not as flexible as teleportation.

[Karnith]

Shadow pounce triggers off of any teleportation, so yes, that would work.
Note, however, that Shadow Pounce requires that you have line of sight to your intended target from your original location, so its utility with Scry-and-die tactics is somewhat limited.

[GhengisConrad]

Well, yeah.

The kind of build I'm thinking is something like (this is a SUPER rough sketch)

Anthropomorphic Bat
1 Feral 0
1 Half-Minotaur 0
2 Swordsage
1 Barbarian
2 Totemist
2 Swordsage
3 Umbral Deciple
4 Binder

Thinking of dicing and slicing to get ShadowPounce or Stick with Barbarian and work on unarmed attacks for more attacks.


feral half minotaur means crazy high strength and Nat. Armor. Couple that with crazy wis and con with Swrodsage and Dahlver-Nar for even MORE nat. armor... and of course Umbral Desciple's concealment... i mean, I like the advantages of shadowpounce, but if charge breakers are dependent on beating my ac or strength... shyeah... good luck!

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Is this shadowpounce thing even controversial? My table can be convinced eitherwise if this is just the accepted iterpretation. But as far as we see it, Shadowpounce give you a full attack after your teleporation. This gives you 1 full attack, but by the end of that the clock would have run out for whatever kind of actions you would naturally have left, even if you used a swift or move action to teleport.

We just don't see how somehow your squeezing out remainder movements. If such, if I can gain bonus move actions some how, would I be able to Pounce-Pounce with each extra movement gained? I mean, if I were to convert each move action into a charge? Would that be a thing?

Not trying to be snarky. Honestly just curious.

[OldTrees1]

But sure, you can get around most individual ways of breaking charges, but only by investing as much or more as a shadowpouncer needs to pick up shadowpounce - and it's still not as flexible as teleportation.

While Pounce will never be as flexible as teleportation, I do not think the investment is as large.

Barbarian 1, Monk 2 & Drunken Master 2 vs Dimension Door(sp) & Shadowlord 4
Flight was not included since Ex Flight is useful for all melee characters.

I personally prefer Pounce since it has a lower optimization ceiling and thus does not risk scaring DMs.

[danzibr]

Well, yeah.

The kind of build I'm thinking is something like (this is a SUPER rough sketch)

Anthropomorphic Bat
1 Feral 0
1 Half-Minotaur 0
2 Swordsage
1 Barbarian
2 Totemist
2 Swordsage
3 Umbral Deciple
4 Binder

Thinking of dicing and slicing to get ShadowPounce or Stick with Barbarian and work on unarmed attacks for more attacks.


feral half minotaur means crazy high strength and Nat. Armor. Couple that with crazy wis and con with Swrodsage and Dahlver-Nar for even MORE nat. armor... and of course Umbral Desciple's concealment... i mean, I like the advantages of shadowpounce, but if charge breakers are dependent on beating my ac or strength... shyeah... good luck!

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Is this shadowpounce thing even controversial? My table can be convinced eitherwise if this is just the accepted iterpretation. But as far as we see it, Shadowpounce give you a full attack after your teleporation. This gives you 1 full attack, but by the end of that the clock would have run out for whatever kind of actions you would naturally have left, even if you used a swift or move action to teleport.

We just don't see how somehow your squeezing out remainder movements. If such, if I can gain bonus move actions some how, would I be able to Pounce-Pounce with each extra movement gained? I mean, if I were to convert each move action into a charge? Would that be a thing?

Not trying to be snarky. Honestly just curious.
I like the Totemist and Umbral Disciple ;)

Also, that is the strangest race/template combo I've ever heard of.

[Xervous]

Also, if you do plan on shadowpouncing, tell your party members to cast spells like benign transposition.


Huh, now I'm picturing a group of wizards who take turns swinging a shadowpouncer with teleportation magic.

[GhengisConrad]

I like the Totemist and Umbral Disciple ;)

Also, that is the strangest race/template combo I've ever heard of.

I obsess over optimizing weird racial combos..

and just imagine it. Huge horns, bat wings, giant 1d8 claws, and like, +1 Brazilian to the Str score...

I've been toying with Shadowpounce builds for ever, I like the idea of a moving landmine kinda thing. All like 'can't see me, I'm sneaky, can't hit me' and then BOOM! Brazilian attacks (bite, gore, claws).

[claypigeons]

Brazilian attacks (bite, gore, claws).

Give him ranks in Perform(dance). Capoeira with natural weapons.

[Big Fau]

3Dragonmarked. Only works with the swift action dimension leap granted by your class/dragonmarks.

Nitpick: It's a Move action to use it, not a Swift action.

[Piggy Knowles]

Nitpick: It's a Move action to use it, not a Swift action.

Whoops, sorry. Was running off memory and I knew Blade of Orien reduced the action on its dimension leaps, but I must have swift actions on the brain. Looks like I'm not totally crazy - they do call the class feature "swift leap," so that's probably where I got swift action from.

[Big Fau]

Whoops, sorry. Was running off memory and I knew Blade of Orien reduced the action on its dimension leaps, but I must have swift actions on the brain. Looks like I'm not totally crazy - they do call the class feature "swift leap," so that's probably where I got swift action from.

Yeah, the name can throw people off. At least it isn't in the running for "Worst name for an ability" though.