Gestalt paladin/swordsage advice

[olataro]

Hi guys, I'm planning on making a gestalt paladin/swordsage character.
The idea of the character is kinda an oriental holy warrior, one who fights for good and protect the innocent while having skill in martial arts. The character also follows the Draconic template.


I know this is a weird combination, but i would like to hear from you all. What feat and martial would you attempt to dip yourself in? :smallsmile:

Any advice?

[Greenish]

You'll want Serenity (DMC) to key your paladin stuff to Wis instead of Cha, to reduce MAD.

[Rebel7284]

Follows a template? Do you mean he has the template? Overall, it seems like a reasonable combination for a flexible fighter, but you are somewhat multiple attribute dependent, so I would only do this if you have very high stats (even with the template)

You need:
Cha for saves and turn undead attempts (if you are using them for anything)
Wisdom for AC
Con for Surviving on the front line
Str and/or Dex for damage (Shadow blade can help make Dex more important)
Int is your only real dump stat.

What exactly do you want this character to accomplish? What level are you playing at?

[olataro]

Follows a template? Do you mean he has the template? Overall, it seems like a reasonable combination for a flexible fighter, but you are somewhat multiple attribute dependent, so I would only do this if you have very high stats (even with the template)

You need:
Cha for saves and turn undead attempts (if you are using them for anything)
Wisdom for AC
Con for Surviving on the front line
Str and/or Dex for damage (Shadow blade can help make Dex more important)
Int is your only real dump stat.

What exactly do you want this character to accomplish? What level are you playing at?


Hmmm, i actually was thinking of building the character to be tank-ish. And just forgo the AC bonus from the swordsage and don heavy armour and shield instead. (sry, new to D&D. Do advise if the choice was not wise)

The character will focus on using maneuvers and stances to control the battlefield while dishing out damage.

We are playing at level 3. So with the LA buyoff (Unless draconic template can be gestalted? Which i dont think its possible) So my char is level 2 (ECL: 3).

Assuming i take the serenity feat, what else do ineed to do? Or is the draconic template not worth it?

[Rebel7284]

Crusader//Swordsage probably makes for a better tank due to Thicket of Blades stance and the strikes that give penalties to attacking your allies. Alternatively, Crusader//Factotum is probably even better.

It's not defined how LA interacts with gestalt, but many DMs actually DO allow you to gestalt LA. Ask yours. Alternatively look up LA buyoff rules. Draconic tends to be an OK template with reasonable bonuses for 1 LA, but it may be better to drop it if you can't gestalt or buy it off.

Usually such a build uses a reach weapon (Spiked Chain is the best, but requires a feat) and then takes Combat Reflexes and Standstill.

[olataro]

Crusader//Swordsage probably makes for a better tank due to Thicket of Blades stance and the strikes that give penalties to attacking your allies. Alternatively, Crusader//Factotum is probably even better.

It's not defined how LA interacts with gestalt, but many DMs actually DO allow you to gestalt LA. Ask yours. Alternatively look up LA buyoff rules. Draconic tends to be an OK template with reasonable bonuses for 1 LA, but it may be better to drop it if you can't gestalt or buy it off.

Usually such a build uses a reach weapon (Spiked Chain is the best, but requires a feat) and then takes Combat Reflexes and Standstill.

True. But just for fluff, I would prefer to use Paladin gestalt variant. Thing is....not sure if i'm building the character right?

Should i go for light armour/dualwield and rely on wisodom? Or should i just go with heavyarmour/shield instead? As the AC bonus from Wisdom is more or less the same compared to armour and shield?

[Rebel7284]

Light armor is typically better due to increased mobility. Mithral medium when you can afford it.

A two-handed weapon is better in most cases.

[DarkSonic1337]

+1 to the serenity suggestion. The feat lets your Divine Grace, Turn undead, Smite Evil, and Lay on Hands abilities be keyed off of Wisdom instead of Charisma.

So you'll have Wis to:
Spell DCs, Bonus Spells, and maximum available spell levels
Maneuver DCs
Damage with Discipline Focus Maneuvers
All Saves (including Will Saves again)
AC while in light armor
Turn undead, Smite Evil, and Lay on Hands

Intuititve Attack can get you Wis to to-hit as well.

[Grizzled Gryphon]

Paladin//Crusader would work much better for the tank idea. Just seems to thematically work better, too. Swordsage//Paladin just doesn't go together to me. It would be like a Paladin//Rogue.

But, to each there own.

[Sian]

yeah ... thematicly i'd also say Crusader/Paladin meshes better

[Kennisiou]

Honestly, Swordsage//Paladin with Serenity is probably a lot better for tanking than people are giving credit for. Perfect saves, d10 HP, wis to AC and wis to saves. That's pretty good low attribute dependancy, with the ability to key off of wis, con and dex and be a super tanky person with a wide range of spells and maneuvers to effectively control the battlefield more to keep your squishies from getting focused. Crusader//paladin does not offer anything better, honestly. You lose out on saves by having imperfect reflex and are pretty MAD since you wind up only able to dump dex and int (and even then not much) and trade wis to AC for heavy armor, which is not that good a tradeoff compared to just going, say, 16 dex, 16 con, 16 wis on a Swordsage and taking feats to key damage and hit off of dex (so weapon finesse and shadow blade). Keying stats off of cha leaves you MAD because it means you still need wis for paladin spellcasting (paladin spellcasting is honestly really good, I honestly like their 1-4 level spells more than cleric's 1-4 unless you factor in cleric domains) and you lose out on the crusader's cha to will class feature.

A pretty decent build for this concept that's really capable of tanking would be something like:

8 str/10 str
16 dex
16 con
10 int/8 int
16 wis
8 cha (assuming 32 point buy, if not then stat order is dex/wis, con, wis/dex, str/int, int/str, cha)

As a human (or other medium creature with a bonus feat)you take weapon finesse and serenity level one and taking the adaptive style feat tax at level 3 (or level 1 if flaws are allowed). Nab shadow blade at level 6 and you wind up being capable of outputting tons of damage, have a solid +6 to all saves with perfect bases. The str or int decision depends on if you want more skill points or you want to not face a str penalty for damage. You can find a wide variety of finessable weapons that could be appropriate thematically to your character, with the right enchantments you could even nab a katana that you can finesse, fitting with your character's theme nicely. From there it really depends on How you want to go with the character. You could nab some cool devotion feats to make your turning pool (that serenety causes to be keyed off of wisdom) more meaningful, you could nab proficiency with the weapon you want to use if you don't already have it (level 9 is not too late to finally pick up the weapon you wanted to use all along -- you won't be getting too expensive of an enchanted one until then anyways and if the one you want to use isn't naturally finessable it's an expense that may wait until around this point anyways). You could nab some tripping focused feats to emphasize the "tank" nature of the character, giving you a good tool for peeling enemies off of your friends. Swordsages make excellent trippers and the paladin's additional attack bonus and ability to use smiting to get extra hit and damage will make it easier to succesfully trip and/or proc knockdown on evil foes.

In short, this build is totally doable with the classes you wanted originally and is probably way better that way than with crusader. You'll have a few "feat tax" hoops to jump through, but when properly gestalted swordsages are excellent tanks and paladin has all the things that swordsage wants to gestalt with to be a tank (better HD, wis dependancy, better BAB, good fort save).

Edit: I'd suggest avoiding the draconic template and instead consider going dragonborn if you want to be a dragon, although it would get rid of racial bonus feats which, in the long run, I think may hurt the build. It really depends on whether you want character flavor over mechanical ease for accomplishing your build quickly.

Edit x2: Disregard Hadozee have no bonus feat. Humans are among the only medium-size +0 LA creatures with a bonus feat.

[Grizzled Gryphon]

Oh, I wasn't saying the Crusader//Paladin was better, just more thematic.

As for the +1 level adjustment from Draconic, you could, instead, be an Aasimar. That would fit nicely with the theme.