How To Kill a (possibly) Super Powered Lich?

[MinisterMax]

So, I am a lone level 4 ranger in an amateurish solo d&d 3.5 campaign.
Compared to how long D&D has been out, we're newborns to this, but we learn new things and ways for stuff every day.

My character had died at level 3 (after I suicided him for RP reasons), and had been resurrected by a Lich I had failed to kill with an NPC earlier on. This Lich, because we like to add our own spice to D&D, has an undead red dragon, undead Minotaurs, skeletons, undead goblins, and so on.

I have a bow +2H +2D, and was told i'd come close to killing him if I double crit with a bow and did close to max damage. I follow the orders of this lich and the lich has given me a "companion" who I now "care for", wish to break free, and to quit my service to the Lich. Keep in mind I have complete free will, so i'm looking for some sort of way to kill this guy VERY fast before he's able to use any of his 2hit kill creatures on me. Any ideas?

I've seen talk of healing items hurting undead, so how much would a scroll of healing cost?


As some extras for anyone interested: The Lich brought me back due to someone's betrayal of me and cause of my death, I was chaotic evil afterwards for some time, killing anyone I saw, i'm now more of a Neutral Evil or general Neutral now.


I have placed the most useful information in bold for those TL;DR types.

[Rama]

Liches (being undead) are not subject to extra damage from critical hits, so I'm guessing you're running some substantial house rules.

Generally speaking, as a level 4 character, it's next to impossible to kill a lich; let alone one with the minions you listed. And even if you did, you'd have to make sure to somehow find and destroy his phylactery; or he'll just come back angry.

[MinisterMax]

Liches (being undead) are not subject to extra damage from critical hits, so I'm guessing you're running some substantial house rules.

Generally speaking, as a level 4 character, it's next to impossible to kill a lich; let alone one with the minions you listed.

I'm aware of the undead being immune to crits rule. It's something we have in place for now, but as we progress we delve into the hardcore stuff more and more. We're learning these things without an experienced DM.

As for the unable to kill at level 4 thing, it may not be true for the current world we're in (that world being the world of the amateurish D&Drs).

[Rama]

Well there's a difference between amateurish and intentional replacement of the rules. When you're doing the second, it's impossible to answer your question without knowing all the rules you have in place/what else you're ignoring.

[MinisterMax]

Well there's a difference between amateurish and intentional replacement of the rules. When you're doing the second, it's impossible to answer your question without knowing all the rules you have in place/what else you're ignoring.

if you could name some things i could tell you if we use it or not.

[Rama]

It's more the other way around. Everything I can think of, excluding horrendous levels of rules-bending cheese, says this is not possible. Do not pass go, do not collect your intestines when the lich is done playing with them.

But you've excluded a significant invulnerability of the lich from the calculation. So are there others that are ignored/other unexpected weaknesses in place? Is his damage reduction (on top of crit immunity) ignored? Is he suddenly extra-vulnerable to fire due to having dry, papery skin? I don't know. And without the details of your revised lich enemy, I'd be shooting blind to try to recommend any strategy.

But aside from all that, I'd say you'd be better off betraying him to his enemies rather than taking him on yourself.

[MinisterMax]

It's more the other way around. Everything I can think of, excluding horrendous levels of rules-bending cheese, says this is not possible. Do not pass go, do not collect your intestines when the lich is done playing with them.

But you've excluded a significant invulnerability of the lich from the calculation. So are there others that are ignored/other unexpected weaknesses in place? Is his damage reduction (on top of crit immunity) ignored? Is he suddenly extra-vulnerable to fire due to having dry, papery skin? I don't know. And without the details of your revised lich enemy, I'd be shooting blind to try to recommend any strategy.

But aside from all that, I'd say you'd be better off betraying him to his enemies rather than taking him on yourself.

He has damage resistance, not immune to criticals, no extra fire damage, things do not happen instantly (IE: The dragon doesn't just spawn, it is summoned), The lich knows my thoughts, and that's pretty much what I can think of. (For your cringing at the rule bending, once this char finally dies there will be a "Hard core" playthough using all of the base stuff we can, like weight, backpack space, lighting, undead being immune to criticals, some towns using trading goods, all forms of currency, and so on).

Off topic to this, I could talk with someone experienced for hours having them explain to me how to balance the finding of loot, good ways to generate dungeons, ect ect ect, I always crave more info on D&D.

[MinisterMax]

I guess as something general, in a NORMAL circumstance, how would you kill a Lich?

[JungleChicken]

The title of this post is misleading. I was expecting a hardcore optimized lich. What is described is a skeleton that I presume has some intelligence so he can cast spells.

There are no real "ways to kill a lich" if I were the DM I would give him eat least a +2 circumstance bonus to AC, saves and to hit because he already knows your thoughts.

As a ranger at level 4 you probably aren't great at going it solo.

To help though anything that is holy/good aligned or that can disrupt spell casting will be hugely beneficial. Also don't let him touch you

[sideswipe]

ok. if you sold ALL of your gear, got all of your resources. and pulled any favours you have into money. how much do you have?

[Muktidata]

Coup de grace him while he's sleeping.

http://ih0.redbubble.net/image.11306420.0926/fc,135x135,white.jpg

[sideswipe]

ok. if you sold ALL of your gear, got all of your resources. and pulled any favours you have into money. how much do you have?

well i looked in the DMG for weath by level.

you should have in the region of at least 4500 gold. with your +2 weapon you can sell for 4000 gold (as its worth 8000)

a 9th level spell is 1500 and a few extra + material components. so i expect you can afford at least 3.

find a level 17 wizard or cleric and pay for them to take care of your lich. that is the best i can think of for you to feasibly deal with him at level 4.

[Captnq]

Okay... Well. First, go the Noob Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9479.0). (The site might be down. Give it time)

Then look at my sig and check out the EVD.

That should help you with your game a whole lot.

And May I recommend the Mystic Ranger? He's a much better choice for going solo then a straight up ranger.

[Dalebert]

I think a lich is minimum 17th level wizard or something like that. Let me sum up what folks are trying to explain.

You are a bug to this creature. You need to level up. It's kind of weird that your DM has you tangling with a lich at this level.

[MinisterMax]

Okay... Well. First, go the Noob Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9479.0). (The site might be down. Give it time)

Then look at my sig and check out the EVD.

That should help you with your game a whole lot.

And May I recommend the Mystic Ranger? He's a much better choice for going solo then a straight up ranger.


I've actually tried to access that website you linked me to take a look at how the currency system fully works, IE: a drink is 4 copper while i'm supposed to have 5k gold, stuff like that, but thanks for the references.

[OldTrees1]

How to kill a lich:
1) Find the Phylactery
2) Destroy the Phylactery
3) Hire a high level cleric of the Sun Domain to use Greater Turning on the Lich

[Zanos]

How to kill a lich:
1) Find the Phylactery
2) Destroy the Phylactery
3) Hire a high level cleric of the Sun Domain to use Greater Turning on the Lich
That only works if the lich is a sorcerer and dumped int.

[OldTrees1]

That only works if the lich is a sorcerer and dumped int.

I never said the steps were easy (especially the finding and destroying).
However Turning has the edge in the Greater Turning vs Turn Resistance arms race and a Cleric's Wis should help combat the Lich's Int.

End result: Lich dies. (Note: dead wizards are prone to be resurrected by their contingencies)

[Newtrino]

Without knowing any of the specific details of the situation, or your DMs ability to improvise it seems your options are indeed quite limited since you're a bit too low level to deal directly with the lich.

Good news though, YOU don't necessarily have to be the one to kill him. If you do have some freedom to act you could devise a very subtle and clever subterfuge to have someone, or something else kill it. Play on its weaknesses, such as character weaknesses like arrogance, or creature weaknesses like the fact that it's undead (some spells will shield you quite well from undead critters).

Also, in general Detect Thoughts requires a save (and it's a low level spell at that) so it's not automatic. It also has a limited range, and takes time to actually detect surface thoughts. I dunno of any ability that automatically succeeds on all Detect Thoughts checks over any range, unless there is another house rule thing. So if you wish to hide any subterfuge, just be out of range or hope that you make your saving throw.

[TheDarkDM]

I think a lich is minimum 17th level wizard or something like that. Let me sum up what folks are trying to explain.

You are a bug to this creature. You need to level up. It's kind of weird that your DM has you tangling with a lich at this level.

11th level, actually, but the point still stands.

[Thanatosia]

Fighting LIches pretty much requires house rules, because, AFAIK, RAW, there is no way to actually identify what or where a Lich's Phylactery is. He could toss it down some well where no one would ever find it, and even if someone did, they'd have no way of knowing what it's significance is.

OOTS kinda ass-pulled a solution to this issue by having Soon identify Xykon's Phylactery in the pressence of O'chul, tho even Richard gave no reason or logic how he pulled that off.

If your DM doesn't house-rule in some feat, spell, skill check, or ability to identify and find a Lich's Phylactery, I'm not sure how those things are ever suposed to die for real unless the DM just plays the Lich dumb as dirt and makes it overtly obvious and near at hand. And thats before you get into the real high level silliness like hiding it on a private genesis-created plane that no one else can get to.

[OldTrees1]

If your DM doesn't house-rule in some feat, spell, skill check, or ability to identify and find a Lich's Phylactery

Um, lots of knowledge checks have DM adjudicated DCs. This is not abnormal.

[Elderand]

Fighting LIches pretty much requires house rules, because, AFAIK, RAW, there is no way to actually identify what or where a Lich's Phylactery is.

Asside from the score of divination spells and powers you mean ?

[Thanatosia]

Asside from the score of divination spells and powers you mean ?
What Divinition identifies and locates a Liches' Phylactery?

Contact other Plane and Commune only allows yes/no questions/answers, so I guess you could go "is this it?" on every item in the multiverse until you hit on the right one..... could take a while.

Locate Object or Discern Location are great for finding the Phylactery (assuming it isn't warded) once you know what it is, but do not identify it for you... and Discern Location, as an 8th level divinination, requires you to have touched an object to locate it - so even if you know what the Lich's Phylactery is you'd need to have gotten your grubby mits on it at least once before for it to be of any use.

Legend Lore/Vision would be great if the Phylactery was ever widely known and identified in the past... but assuming there are not long lost ancient fables of the time the Lich saved his phylactery, not much chance of IDing it with that.

Analyze Dweomer might do the trick if you have the Phylactery in hand and cast it on it. But even that is kind of open to DM interpretation. I'd certainly allow it, but a very strict RAW interpretation of the spell as it's laid out in the PHB might not allow for it.

I guess Discern Location is still probably your best bet for finding it tho with existing divinitions- kill the lich, discern location on the Lich, and if you can get to him before he reforms enough to distance himself from the Phylactery again there you go - but it's no good for destroying the phylactery before the LIch, you'll need to fight the lich at least twice (tho probably weakened in the 2nd encounter, depending on how quickly you can get to it).

[Elderand]

What Divinition identifies and locates a Liches' Phylactery?

Contact other Plane and Commune only allows yes/no questions/answers, so I guess you could go "is this it?" on every item in the multiverse until you hit on the right one..... could take a while.

Locate Object or Discern Location are great for finding the Phylactery (assuming it isn't warded) once you know what it is, but do not identify it for you... and Discern Location, as an 8th level divinination, requires you to have touched an object to locate it - so even if you know what the Lich's Phylactery is you'd need to have gotten your grubby mits on it at least once before for it to be of any use.

Legend Lore/Vision would be great if the Phylactery was ever widely known and identified in the past... but assuming there are not long lost ancient fables of the time the Lich saved his phylactery, not much chance of IDing it with that.

Analyze Dweomer might do the trick if you have the Phylactery in hand and cast it on it. But even that is kind of open to DM interpretation. I'd certainly allow it, but a very strict RAW interpretation of the spell as it's laid out in the PHB might not allow for it.

I guess Discern Location is still probably your best bet for finding it tho with existing divinitions- kill the lich, discern location on the Lich, and if you can get to him before he reforms enough to distance himself from the Phylactery again there you go - but it's no good for destroying the phylactery before the LIch, you'll need to fight the lich at least twice (tho probably weakened in the 2nd encounter, depending on how quickly you can get to it).

Hypercognition alone bypass any potential problem.

[3drinks]

Okay... Well. First, go the Noob Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9479.0). (The site might be down. Give it time)

Then look at my sig and check out the EVD.

That should help you with your game a whole lot.

And May I recommend the Mystic Ranger? He's a much better choice for going solo then a straight up ranger.

I consider myself a pretty knowledgeable player, but holy **** I didn't know of this guide. Very insightful, and a great resource to the community, Captnq. Thanks.

[Thanatosia]

Hypercognition alone bypass any potential problem.
Hrmmm, not sure Hypercognition can identify a Lich's Phylactery unless you've had some sort of contact with it in the past - or better yet, view it within the presence of the Lich, and thus some basis for your mind making the connection between it and the Lich.

I admit it should almost certainly work on a Lich like Xykon who keeps his Phylactery near at hand, with Hypercognition making the connection between redcloaks holy symbol and Xykon. But if the Lich has sequestered his Phylactery away somewhere before you ever encountered it that you have no clue of, Hypercognition really has nothing to work with.... Unless you take a very liberal interpretation of the power that pretty much makes it divine omniscience, at what point why bother fighting liches, you are god.

Even if it does work, it's an 8th level Psionic power. Lots of campaigns don't even use Psionics, I don't think i've played in one yet.... and Liches can appear much earlier to most adventurer's then gaining lv8 spells/powers.

[SinsI]

How to kill a lich:
1) Find the Phylactery
2) Destroy the Phylactery
3) Hire a high level cleric of the Sun Domain to use Greater Turning on the Lich

The origin of Lich lies in a fairy tale, and in that fairy tale you only need to destroy its (phylactery analog) to completely destroy the Lich.

Maybe your homebrewed Lich follows the same set of rules?
In that case, you can kill it by finding and destroying the Phylactery.

[Jeff the Green]

What Divinition identifies and locates a Liches' Phylactery?

Contact other Plane and Commune only allows yes/no questions/answers, so I guess you could go "is this it?" on every item in the multiverse until you hit on the right one..... could take a while.

There's no need for that. Let's assume we're using commune. At 9th level a cleric should be able to cast it twice a day, for a total of 18 questions (assuming no CL boosters). Even on a planet the size of earth, by progressively bifurcating the surface area you can get to a square 44 km on a side. Another day shrinks that to a 86 m-square. One final casting will get you to the five-foot square. Past that detect magic and identify will suffice unless it's hidden from divination.

[Zweisteine]

Step 1:
Buy a candle of invocation. You probably do t have enough money (8,400 gp) yet, so you might have to wait a while.

Step 2:
Use candle to cast gate to summon an Efreeti (if the candle was Evil) or a Noble Djinni (if the candle was good) If you summon the Djinni, immediately inform him that you have captured him, so he owes you wishes.

Step 3:
Use your three wishes to get more candles of invocation, aligned lawful, lawful, and good.

Step 4:
Gate in a Solar, and two Maruts (inevitables). The Maryts should be willing to assist in destroying a Lich for no cost, as their purpose on existence is to kill those who unnaturally extend their lives (Sichuan as through lichdom). The Solar might be willing to help because Lichs are proudly evil, and the Solar is a paragon of good. If the solar is not willing to help for free, however, use the immediate service option to get a wish. Get a lawful candle, summon a third Marut.

Step 5:
Maruts kill the Lich, and probably his minions too.

Step 6:
They left his loot; take it.

Step 6:
???????

Step 7:
Profit.


If you want to do it right away, find out how to make a DC 25 Knowledge (the planes) check to know about the archdemon Pazuzu. Then speak his name twice, an he will telepathically contact you. He will grant you a wish, if you gree to be more evil and/or chaotic (forget which goes first), and agree to spread his name to others. Wish for a candle of invocation; proceed as normal.


Remember, try not to over abuse the candles. A better way to go about this is probably to use just one good candle, summon a Solar, ask of
It will help you kill the Lich for free. If yes you're set; go for it. If no, wish for a lawful candle and summon a Marut. The DM is less likely to get annoyed this way.

Also, don't use candles of invocation for personal profit. Rocks will fall if you do.

[Dalebert]

Contact other Plane and Commune only allows yes/no questions/answers, so I guess you could go "is this it?" on every item in the multiverse until you hit on the right one..... could take a while.

When you play the game "20 Questions", is that how you do it?

[BWR]

Commune and Contact Other Plance can easily be defeated by the being questioned not knowing where the phylactery is.

One campaign I played we were looking for something akin to a phylactery and used Commune to ask "is it north of this city? Is it west of that mountain?" etc. until we'd found the place. Then we did this for all the other items we were looking for at the time. Everyone agreed later that this was a boring and somewhat unfair use of the spell even if the gods knew the answers, so Commune and COP have since been house ruled to once per situation (and often only once per adventure), and no one bothers to use pinpoint castings like that to avoid the spell being restricted any further.

[Elderand]

Commune and Contact Other Plance can easily be defeated by the being questioned not knowing where the phylactery is.

One campaign I played we were looking for something akin to a phylactery and used Commune to ask "is it north of this city? Is it west of that mountain?" etc. until we'd found the place. Then we did this for all the other items we were looking for at the time. Everyone agreed later that this was a boring and somewhat unfair use of the spell even if the gods knew the answers, so Commune and COP have since been house ruled to once per situation (and often only once per adventure), and no one bothers to use pinpoint castings like that to avoid the spell being restricted any further.

I fail to see how dm fiat and gentleman agreement is a good or even valid argument in a raw discussion.

[BWR]

The bit about how Commune might not work because of RAW (questioned beings not knowing the answers or for some reason not wanting to tell them) and how some practical issues of the spell may turn out in play, maybe?

[OldTrees1]

The bit about how Commune might not work because of RAW (questioned beings not knowing the answers or for some reason not wanting to tell them) and how some practical issues of the spell may turn out in play, maybe?


You contact your deity—or agents thereof —and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no. (A cleric of no particular deity contacts a philosophically allied deity.) You are allowed one such question per caster level. The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge. “Unclear” is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient. In cases where a one-word answer would be misleading or contrary to the deity’s interests, a short phrase (five words or less) may be given as an answer instead.

The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes. If you lag, discuss the answers, or go off to do anything else, the spell ends.

Not answering is not an option. The questioned being not knowing is possible but requires the DM to decide the being does not know. This DM decision is on par with the DM decision about what DC the Bardic Knowledge check would have to get the information.

[Dalebert]

Is there any more information on the details about a lich phylactery than what's in the MM1? That description leaves a lot for interpretation on the DM's part as to how exactly it works. Maybe it can't be too far from the lich, like a magic jar. It says the lich comes back if it's not destroyed. Where? Near the phylactery? Does it raise his old body, repairing it wherever it is? Maybe it has to be placed near a dead body that's specially prepared to become the lich's new body. Just brainstorming.

Maybe these details were clarified somewhere else that I don't know about, or maybe they were left vague. That seems to happen a lot.

[Jeff the Green]

Not answering is not an option. The questioned being not knowing is possible but requires the DM to decide the being does not know. This DM decision is on par with the DM decision about what DC the Bardic Knowledge check would have to get the information.

There's actually RAW on this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#portfolioSense).


Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have.

If the deity's portfolio includes magic, magic items, undead, secrets, the sun, or any number of other things, it knows where the phylactery is because hiding it is an event relevant to their portfolio. And if it's contrary to the deity's interests, there are sure to be other deities who don't care or want you to kill the lich.

[Dalebert]

If the deity's portfolio includes magic, magic items, undead, secrets, the sun, or any number of other things, it knows where the phylactery is because hiding it is an event relevant to their portfolio. And if it's contrary to the deity's interests, there are sure to be other deities who don't care or want you to kill the lich.

And if not, that remote sensing is pretty bomb.

[Jeff the Green]

And if not, that remote sensing is pretty bomb.

The deity still has to know approximately where to look, though.

[Elderand]

The deity still has to know approximately where to look, though.

Do note that this issue is entirely non existant with contact other plane.
No need ofr any sort of DM imput there, the spell comes with it's own table as to wheter or not you get the correct answer. then it's just a matter of casting the spell a couple time to correlate the results.