Vile Feats for Neutral Kiddies.

[GhengisConrad]

Is there ANY way that I can get Vile feats working on someone who isn't evil?

He can be evil sometimes! Or for a short while! But, if he's just, like, an evil dude, my DM will send something stronger than he is to kill him.

Specifically I need Willing Deformity (Teeth) and Willing Deformity (Tall) so I can go whole hog with some other aspects of my build.

[Flickerdart]

[Vile] is the opposite of [Exalted] - only a character who embodies the idea of Evil in their thoughts and deeds can take them. "Sometimes evil" isn't good enough.

[The Oni]

I believe that evil alignment is required to *take* the feats, not merely to *have* the feats - both RAW and RAI.

In theory, if you have a gentleman who was once in the service of a Dark God, who stretched himself to 7 feet and filed his teeth into points (so as to better acquire and devour the children of goodness and light with fava beans and a nice chianti) but was later shown the error of his ways by the kindness of heroes and started on the path to goodness - well, he's not gonna snap back to 5'5 and acquire instant dentistry, is he?

[zabbarot]

I believe that evil alignment is required to *take* the feats, not merely to *have* the feats - both RAW and RAI.

In theory, if you have a gentleman who was once in the service of a Dark God, who stretched himself to 7 feet and filed his teeth into points (so as to better acquire and devour the children of goodness and light with fava beans and a nice chianti) but was later shown the error of his ways by the kindness of heroes and started on the path to goodness - well, he's not gonna snap back to 5'5 and acquire instant dentistry, is he?

Don't you lose access to feats if you no longer meet their prerequisites though? I mean... it'd be strange for your character to suddenly switch back to average looking.

Actually, if that's how it works, a toned down Helm of Opposite Alignment would make a neat party trick...

[Flickerdart]

I believe that evil alignment is required to *take* the feats, not merely to *have* the feats - both RAW and RAI.
You believe incorrectly. The very second sentence of the Feats section in the BoVD states unambiguously: "Only intelligent characters of an evil alignment can use vile feats." Not "take", "use".

[Vile] feats are all supernatural, not extraordinary (same paragraph as the line above). They are granted by malign powers, and once you stop being a mean ol' jerk, those powers "turn off the tap" and now all you've got is a messed up body without the benefits.

[Yawgmoth]

well, he's not gonna snap back to 5'5 and acquire instant dentistry, is he? Apparently he is, since (as previously stated) you have to be evil to keep access to the feats.

[Grim Portent]

I would suggest asking your DM to houserule that turning from evil to neutral doesn't disable the body based vile feats.

[Maginomicon]

Thematically it makes for even body deformity vile feats to require the prerequisites to keep hold of them for almost the same reason that Beast (in Beauty and the Beast) lost his deformities once became non-evil.

[Flickerdart]

I would suggest asking your DM to houserule that turning from evil to neutral doesn't disable the body based vile feats.
Again, they're supernatural abilities granted by evil powers in return for your devotion (expressed through maiming yourself appropriately). You don't get a bite attack just because you screwed up your teeth, you get a bite attack because you screwed up your teeth as a sacrifice, and were demonically empowered to use those teeth for extra good biting.

[Grim Portent]

The source of the power is largely irrelevant to trying to persuade the GM to make the houserule, it's worth a try regardless.

Other than that the only way I can think of is to just play a high functioning evil character and try to avoid people finding out.

[Phelix-Mu]

Other than that the only way I can think of is to just play a high functioning evil character and try to avoid people finding out.

Blame it on an accident while playing hockey.

[Flickerdart]

The source of the power is largely irrelevant to trying to persuade the GM to make the houserule, it's worth a try regardless.

It's totally relevant, because here it makes the difference between "this is a silly dysfunction, do you mind correcting it so it makes sense" and "excuse me from this prerequisite because I want you to."

[Grim Portent]

It's totally relevant, because here it makes the difference between "this is a silly dysfunction, do you mind correcting it so it makes sense" and "excuse me from this prerequisite because I want you to."

And the GM may consider the prerequisite to not be sufficiently important not to houserule away so his player can have the build he wants without playing a restricted alignment.

Personally if I was GMing it I'd just throw together a pair of homebrew feats that do the same basic thing but with a different explanation and no prerequisites, but that's just the way I run things.

[Flickerdart]

And the GM may consider the prerequisite to not be sufficiently important not to houserule away so his player can have the build he wants without playing a restricted alignment.
The GM "may" do any number of things. What he "may" do is irrelevant. In this situation, one source of power gives you a much better leg to stand on when asking than another, which is not a "maybe" but a fact.

[WhamBamSam]

If this is the same character from your other threads, you won't qualify for Deformity (Tall) even without the alignment restriction, since you need to be Medium Sized, and the character is a Strongheart Halfling. Though if you're pouring this much reach optimization into the build, I'm not sure why you're playing a small race.

[Grim Portent]

The GM "may" do any number of things. What he "may" do is irrelevant. In this situation, one source of power gives you a much better leg to stand on when asking than another, which is not a "maybe" but a fact.

Well then if we 're going to assume the GM says no then maybe we should start looking for other ways for the OP to get the same effects of the feats that don't require being evil.

Willing Deformity (Tall) gives you reach. The only other methods I'm familiar with to do the same are reach weapons and size increases, but if the OP already has a build planned that needed a feat for this to work I don't think either would work very well.

As for Willing Deformity (Teeth), there are so very many ways of getting a bite attack, but all of the ones I know immediately are either templates or races, which is once again not really helpful.

GhengisConrad would you be willing to post your build up so more detailed recommendations can be made?

[Captnq]

Do you need the feats, or just the teeth and tail? Because chance would have it, I'm working on the augmentation handbook. Let me take a look...

For free, you can repeatedly hit yourself with warp touch. Just get a warpsword.

Editor: As you can see, there are some unique opportunities to this disease. Some serious advantages, if you can just find a way to overcome the side effects. Now, nothing says you cannot hit yourself with this disease multiple times until you have all sorts of new and interesting mutations and perks. Alas, the random distribution will result in far more useless and negative aspects then positive ones. So we will address the negative aspects, then the positive ones.
Editor (Death): The worse of which is, instant death. 10% of the time. Now, since you turn into formless jelly, I am uncertain if you can just revivify and come back. By RAW, that would mean you are alive, made of jelly, then die. This could be over come by being polymorphed, or immune to transmutation. Alas, immunity to transmutation would also render you immune to the disease. Wish and other powers allow a one round do over. Alter Fortune gives you a reroll. But if these are not available to you, it’s clear you need to be polymorphed into viable body the same instant you come back to life. I suppose a clone would not fall victim to the disease, so that might be an option as well, but the level loss hardly makes it worth it. No, the best solution is the spell Fortune fate. In the advent of death, it automatically kicks in and hits you with a cure disease. Since it acts as a free action when it triggers, it should stop the disease from killing you when you roll a 1 to 10.
Editor (Ability Drain): While the ability drain is permanent, it is still ability drain. Thus anything that prevents ability drain prevents the loss of stats. Alas, it does nothing for the cosmetic aspects of the roll. You might prevent the Dex loss if you roll a 30, but you will still have fingers that look like they are twisted into tangles. Still, if you are willing to risk the cosmetic changes, the ability loss is fairly easy to overcome. An absorbing suit of armor and shield could automatically prevent the first 10 points of loss a day. The single best way is to find a 4th level cleric/druid and have them cast Sheltered Vitality. That spell flat out negates any and all ability drain/damage for one minute a level and is only a 4th level spell. You’ll still keep the freakish mutations, but none of the side effects.
Editor (Eyes falling out): That’s a tough one. Frankly, I can’t see any way to prevent it, other then undoing the event or using a spell or power to reroll. After it has happened, however, you now have two empty sockets for grafts! Do remember, remove blindness doesn’t work to replace missing eyeballs, or damaged ones. Also, once you have been deformed, regeneration won’t bring them back. Although, if you roll “grow and extra eye” later. Not only will you be able to see, but you gain a +2 spot. Frankly, I don’t see how one eye is better then two or three, but in this case, it would be.
Editor (Mouth seals forever): Ouch. Well, polymorph or alter self will fix it in the short term, but that can be dispelled. I rather think that a crafter of flesh should be able to cut you a new mouth or something. It won’t look nice, but it should work. Although I would say it would be countered by “grow a very wide mouth”, should you roll it later.
Editor (Snake tails): Well, if you are looking at a guide to grafts, then you are prepared to hack your legs off. So just replace them if this comes up.
Editor (Grow vestigial wings/Vestigial Arm or Tail): You might think this is a problem, but it’s not. You now have new “limbs” you can hack off and replace with grafts!
Editor (Arms become tentacles): Hrm, not being able to manipulate things is bad, but improved grapple is good. So it depends on your build or choices. Don’t like ‘em, hack them off and replace them.
Editor (The Good stuff): As you can see you can gain +4 to Int, faster movement, an extra free attack as a snake grows out of your torso and attacks on its own. All of them are nice, but the last three need special attention. The petrifying gaze is a bit of an issue, since you don’t want to accidentally kill your friends. You might wish to invest in some sort of alternative “sight” so you can keep your eyes closed when you are out in public. The second one is the incontrollable poison touch. You’ll just have to wear gloves. And the third is the stench. Makes it difficult to act as a team if your friends are all puking all the time.

So why would you do this? Well, as a DM, it’s free perks you can stack on a BBEG and you don’t have to worry about the cost. Just describe him as all mutated with a big pulsating brain. As a player, you had better have an understanding party, or everyone has better be ready to go in on this with you. Still, what wizard wouldn’t risk mutation for a free +4 Int bonus that stacks with everything and never goes away? As a DM, I would never allow this in my campaign. It simply has the opportunity for serious game breakage. On the other hand, maybe you like the idea of players mutating themselves for power.
Either way, before you start grafting new body parts on yourself, look this disease and decide if you are going to take a chance or not. Once you start grafting body parts on, those grafts becomes body parts that the disease can destroy. Just paid 50,000 gp for a new pair of legs? Whoops! They’re a tail now. Really like that new Illithid Sword Arm? Pity it just turned into a tentacle. So the disease comes first, THEN you add grafts.


Feats: Aberrant
Aberrant blood gives you a tail.
Deepspawn is AWESOME
Inhuman reach is AWESOME

No bite attack, however.

Nothing useful from illithid heritage.

Now, if after you warp touch yourself a tail, your DM won't let you use it...

PREHENSILE TAIL [MONSTROUS]
- SAVAGE SPECIES (3.0)

Aboleth grafts are a bad choice.

Draconic grafts...

SMASHING TAIL
- RACES OF THE DRAGON (3.5)
You sprout a muscular, scaled tail with which you can smash enemies.
Price: 30,000 gp
Graft Location: Legs.
Graft Sacrifice: 4 hp.


Fiendish grafts, bad choice...

Yuan-Ti grafts...
ADDED TAIL
- FIEND FOLIO (3.5)
- SERPENT KINGDOMS (3.5)
Price: 6,000 gp

If you are playing a warforged...
JAWS OF DEATH [WARFORGED]
- RACES OF EBERRON (3.5)
Gnashing teeth and a powerful set of jaws allow you to bite foes.
Prerequisite: Warforged.


Ooo! Illithid grafts

GRASPING MANDIBLES
- FIEND FOLIO (3.5)
Price: 15,000 gp
Graft Location: Attachment (Head).

A quick file search turned up that.

[GhengisConrad]

If this is the same character from your other threads, you won't qualify for Deformity (Tall) even without the alignment restriction, since you need to be Medium Sized, and the character is a Strongheart Halfling. Though if you're pouring this much reach optimization into the build, I'm not sure why you're playing a small race.

Every one of my builds is also half-minotaur... so... actually medium.

Yeah, I can have the same effect by Aberration Blood, which requires Humanoid, so I'm using Mourning Mutate from Dragon 359 to crack that nut.

5' reach here I come!

p.s. I'll be playing an anthropomorphic BAT actually! So... Bat wings and tentacles... Lovin' it!

[Phelix-Mu]

p.s. I'll be playing an anthropomorphic BAT actually! So... Bat wings and tentacles... Lovin' it!

Hmm. You need to exploit more lovecraftian flavor in this concept.:smallsmile:

[Darth Stabber]

Hmm. You need to exploit more lovecraftian flavor in this concept.:smallsmile:

Binder is great for that.

[Captnq]

oh, TALL. Not TAIL. Sorry about that.

Yeah Inhuman reach. Good choice.

[WhamBamSam]

Every one of my builds is also half-minotaur... so... actually medium.

Yeah, I can have the same effect by Aberration Blood, which requires Humanoid, so I'm using Mourning Mutate from Dragon 359 to crack that nut.

5' reach here I come!

p.s. I'll be playing an anthropomorphic BAT actually! So... Bat wings and tentacles... Lovin' it!Aren't the anthropomorphic animals monstrous humanoids, and hence not able to qualify for Aberration Blood? Unless you're also making it a Dragonborn, though you'd then have to be good aligned.

[GhengisConrad]

Aren't the anthropomorphic animals monstrous humanoids, and hence not able to qualify for Aberration Blood? Unless you're also making it a Dragonborn, though you'd then have to be good aligned.

http://bit.ly/1clP02c

[WhamBamSam]

Derp. Missed that in the post I quoted.

Oh Dragon Magazine, is there anything you can't do?

[Crake]

Yuan-Ti grafts...
ADDED TAIL
- FIEND FOLIO (3.5)

Isn't fiend folio 3.0?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Isn't fiend folio 3.0?

Yes. And?

3.0 and 3.5 are the same game. 3.0 material sometimes needs to be tweaked just a little to match the changes in the 3.5 but otherwise function just fine.

[hamishspence]

[Vile] feats are all supernatural, not extraordinary (same paragraph as the line above). They are granted by malign powers, and once you stop being a mean ol' jerk, those powers "turn off the tap" and now all you've got is a messed up body without the benefits.

Unlike with BoED though- there's no rule saying you lose the feat not just for changing alignment, but also for committing any Good act (as opposed to any Evil act, for the BoED Exalted feats).

[Vaz]

Bite attack can be got by the Catalogues of Enlightenment (Hunger Domain) Planar Touchstone feat.

Its granted power is a Bite Attack. Only issue jn mostly melee builds is getting Knowlddge Planes as a class skill, although Knowledge Devotion helps on that front.

[Flickerdart]

Unlike with BoED though- there's no rule saying you lose the feat not just for changing alignment, but also for committing any Good act (as opposed to any Evil act, for the BoED Exalted feats).
Evil is more reasonable than Good? Whoda thunk it.

[Prime32]

He can be evil sometimes! Or for a short while! But, if he's just, like, an evil dude, my DM will send something stronger than he is to kill him.What do you mean by "an evil dude"? D&D defines evil mostly as being selfish. It's perfectly normal for an evil person to work with others if that's the best way to get what he wants. Assuming equal levels of sanity, an evil character is less likely to commit random crimes/betrayals than a good one, since a good character would be willing to risk suffering or death to uphold his ideals while an evil one wouldn't.

tl;dr - Evil characters are only supposed to act evil "sometimes". Someone who acts evil all the time is either crazy or stupid (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidEvil).

[prufock]

Is there ANY way that I can get Vile feats working on someone who isn't evil?

He can be evil sometimes! Or for a short while! But, if he's just, like, an evil dude, my DM will send something stronger than he is to kill him.

Specifically I need Willing Deformity (Teeth) and Willing Deformity (Tall) so I can go whole hog with some other aspects of my build.

Just be evil and find some way to appear to not be evil. Undetectable aligment is a low-level spell that lasts 24 hours, and can be extended. Other ways:

Spymaster 1, ecl 6, Complete Adventurer, cover identities, undetectable alignment, magic aura at level 3
Occult Slayer 4, ecl 9, Complete Warrior
Tattoed Monk 1, ecl 6, Complete Warrior, white mask tattoo, immune to detect thoughts/lies, hidden alignment, +10 bonus to bluff
Shadowspy 3, ecl 6, Complete Champion, undetectable alignment
Unseen Seer 5, ecl 10, Complete Mage, nondetection
Master of Masks 1, ecl 6, Complete Scoundrel, Faceless mask
Defiant 7, ecl 12, Planar Handbook

Special Mention
Shadowmind, Complete Adventurer, make enemies forget about you


EDIT: Alternately, take Aberration Blood and Inhuman Reach instead of Willing Deformity and Deformity (Tall). Any number of races, feats, spells, powers, or class features can get you a bite attack. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-29095.html).

[Sception]

Doesn't the Hellbred race from fiendish codex II count as evil for prerequisites regardless of actual alignment?

[OldTrees1]

Doesn't the Hellbred race from fiendish codex II count as evil for prerequisites regardless of actual alignment?

Nope. Evil exception merely allows the Hellbred Wizard to cast Mindrape ([Evil] spell) while wielding a +5 Unholy Axe(without suffering the negative level).

[Raezeman]

Is there ANY way that I can get Vile feats working on someone who isn't evil?

Specifically I need Willing Deformity (Teeth) and Willing Deformity (Tall) so I can go whole hog with some other aspects of my build.

Ah, you need the wielding deformities. Well, i suggest you ask your DM if he wants to help you out with that and have them FORCED on your character, making them basically unwilling deformities :p. I'm thinking getting tortured or experimented on, if you can handle somewhat dark campaigns.

Example: one of my characters is an evil dragonfire adept. When he was still neutral, he acquired the willing deformity face feat, and that was far from willingly, as he was tortured into it. He may have turned evil in the meanwhile, but still, he had a vile feat when he was still neutral due to disfigurement. (For those interested to know, being tortured like that was one of the things that pushed him into embracing being evil and now, some time later, he frequently sacrifices innocent souls to a demon lord in exchange for power)

[(Un)Inspired]

Every one of my builds is also half-Minotaur...


For reals? Like, all of them? You only play half-minotaurs?

[ShurikVch]

Book of Vile Darkness have way to gain Willing Deformity without being evil.
Variant Rules, Lingering Effects of Evil, Darkness like the world has never seen before "shows its effects in the following ways.

Creatures: Severe psychological trauma and physical changes are likely in the wake of such powerful evil. Possible changes include the following.
...
• Creature is horribly mutated physically, gaining Willing Deformity as a bonus feat.

Also, D&D Fight Club have Aleam Valassar, Paladin Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060609a). He is not fallen and able to be both a once because possessed by FoP succubus, Lorycia, and do assassinly thing only during sleeptime, when she is in control. Maybe, something like this can be used for [vile] feats?