Advice and Bet Settling

[Luna_Mayflower]

Hi. Back again for a few more questions, and bits of advice from my fellow forum friends about my D&D 3.5 game.

1. Would using Hold Monster on a Beholder then killing it while helpless be an acceptable act for Exalted and good characters? I say no, seeing as paladins can't do it, but no one is a paladin in the party, but both the PCs have exalted feats and are good. Would it be a good act? Or just neutral?

2. Speaking of said Beholder, should their Hold Monster spell fail, they plan to send their Stone Golem to fight the thing. Seeing as the thing is immune to magic, it will make mince meat of the Eye Tyrant. My question is: What should the Beholder do when faced with this magic-immune threat. The DR is too high for the Bite to do anything. So, ideas?

3. One of the PCs has a Vow of Poverty. I was wondering what kind of rewards I could offer her? I know the VoP is meant to restrict the character, but I'm worried she'll be much weaker than the other party members with magic items. Are there any rewards I could offer her, like blessings for example, or is it just a case of leaving her with her own (perhaps good, perhaps bad) choices.

4. One of the PCs is soon to meet a character who is her believed-to-be-dead father. Any advice on how I should do the reveal? I don't want to start ripping off Star Wars here, but I'd also like a good, even shocking, reveal.

Thanks for any help.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

Firstly, good to see you about, Luna.

Secondly, while I have DMed and played a few games, I am not an expert, so YMMV on my comments.



1. Would using Hold Monster on a Beholder then killing it while helpless be an acceptable act for Exalted and good characters? I say no, seeing as paladins can't do it, but no one is a paladin in the party, but both the PCs have exalted feats and are good. Would it be a good act? Or just neutral?


Did the Beholder attack them? Is the beholder known to have attacked innocents unprovoked? Are they duty bound to kill this creature by a high good power? if any of those are yes, then I would say so.


2. Speaking of said Beholder, should their Hold Monster spell fail, they plan to send their Stone Golem to fight the thing. Seeing as the thing is immune to magic, it will make mince meat of the Eye Tyrant. My question is: What should the Beholder do when faced with this magic-immune threat. The DR is too high for the Bite to do anything. So, ideas?

Use it's magic eyes in non-typical ways. Disintegrate works wonders on ground...and the ceiling....remember the beholder flies at will 20 ft. Disintegrate a column into the ceiling and flies up. And then disintegrate the ground beneath the golem. Multiple times. Beholders are crazy, not dumb. They have tricks for magic-immune creatures.

Have the Beholder fight on it's terms. They tend to have traps everywhere on the ground, since the Beholder would never touch the ground. Does the golem have trapfinding? Likely not... :smallwink:

A 200 ft pit trap that ends in lava would do nicely (think of that letter-floor in Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade, with lava at the bottom).

Also, they would likely send their charmed slaves in first. Flying, and/or archers.


3. One of the PCs has a Vow of Poverty. I was wondering what kind of rewards I could offer her? I know the VoP is meant to restrict the character, but I'm worried she'll be much weaker than the other party members with magic items. Are there any rewards I could offer her, like blessings for example, or is it just a case of leaving her with her own (perhaps good, perhaps bad) choices.

Both.

If the Vow was taken to get some mechanical (like +1 to something..etc) then that's a choice they made to "improve" thier character mechanically.

If the Vow was taken to develop the character, then possibly some extra XP, unique blessings, when appropriate, or her God(dess) bestows upon her a religious items that improves the more she upholds her vow? Like a divine Rod of Lordly Might that she doesn't get to know all the functions at once.



4. One of the PCs is soon to meet a character who is her believed-to-be-dead father. Any advice on how I should do the reveal? I don't want to start ripping off Star Wars here, but I'd also like a good, even shocking, reveal.


Does either character know of this connection? If not, possibly have them contrived to kill this person, and then they find out it's thier father?

[fluke1993]

1: From a RAW standpoint there is nothing wrong with executing the beholder after it has been held. From a out of game perspective, given the nature of Beholders, aside from long term stat reduction (expensive, prone to failure, costly and; by raw; generally evil in and of itself) there really is no good way to permanently deal with one. Their racial xenophobia makes redemption all but impossible and their at wills make long term holding extremely costly or extremely sketchy. While killing the beholder certainly isn't a good act, it certainly isn't a evil one (unless of course the beholder is actually really a nice guy) and that is really what your looking for with exalted.

2: If the combat is in an open field the beholder wins, no contest. Perfect maneuverability flight and at will telekinesis mean that the beholder can sit outside of the golem's reach and pelt it with heavy things until it dies. If the combat takes place, the golem has a much better chance of wining but the beholder still has a chance. In this case the beholder would use it's disintegrate beam to remove the ceiling above it. Keep doing this until the golem can't reach the beholder. This may take 2-3 castings. After that more disintegrate should allow the beholder to escape, or if you think it would try for the kill, disintegrate the floor beneath the golem, to the point where it can't climb out of the hole and then kill it as mentioned above.

3: Permant buffs can be a great reward for VoP charaters that go above and beyond the call of duty. Keep in mind that these buffs can be permanantly stripped by dispel magic. Don't go too overboard with it though, VoP has it's costs and they should probably be kept the same. Don't lower the costs of VoP (either directly, by changing the feat or indirectly by providing too much alternate treasure) instead buff the benefits of VoP.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

...

+1 to what they said as well.

[Vhaidara]

1. Not all Exalted feats are Vow on Nonviolence/Peace. Also, where does it say that a paladin cannot kill a helpless evil creature?

2. What everyone else has said. You have flight. Golems are only so tall.

3. It was a bad decision, but it was one for flavor, and I would compensate them for good roleplaying on that front. Because otherwise that player is going too stop enjoying the game when they lose the ability to contribute. So I would say perhaps give them the ability to have their body enchanted (so instead of Boots of Striding and Springing you get your feet enchanted)

4. Have them get to a dungeon, aware that another group of adventurers is seeking the same prize they are. As they arrive, they see the other group enter. This gives you a climactic boss battle with the opposing group of adventurers, and then you can do the reveal (if they kill the father, fiat that he just went to 0 [unconscious but stable], his helmet was blasted off, and they recognize him while looting).

No idea if that works for you, but it's how i would do it.

[andreww]

If they are fighting the Beholder in its lair then there is absolutely no reason for it to be big enough to easily accommodate wide open spaces. If I were a Beholder my lair would be more like a maze of mine shafts and connecting corridors with long drops into nothingness I could telekinetically drop things in to and which I could manoeuvre through to get to any point in the lair or to surprise people by disintegrating walls and popping out in the middle of them.

[Luna_Mayflower]

I probably should explain the situation better. The party, two PCs (A Barbarian and a Spirit Shaman, sort of like a druid) along with three NPCs (A Sorcerer, a Wizard and a Psion), and their stone golem, are going into a cave system to enter a collections of large underground caverns, containing both something their looking for, and a giant city, the king of which is said character's father. The Beholder is the guardian of the cavern's entrance, and, while the entrance cave isn't that high, there is nothing to say the Beholder can't set traps, as the city itself is magically self-sufficient.

Perhaps a huge pit covered by solid stone that the Beholder can Disintergrate? A 200ft drop won't kill the golem, but good luck getting it out, eh? Once the golem is dealt with, things will get much worse for the party. I can see the Beholder either Finger of Death'ing or Flesh to Stone'ing the Barbarian, leaving the party without a fighter. From there, it's just a bunch of squishy, chewy casters for the Beholder to pick off. Only problem comes with the Hold Monster spell. Is there anyway I can boost the Beholder's will save?

Anyway, hoping the PCs make it past old Eyes 11, they'll be greeted peacefully and taken through the entrance to the city. Then, it's up the keep to meet with the Barbarian's father. Hopefully she won't be meeting him just after being killed/petrified by his watchdog. Anyway, ideas for the reveal?

Thanks for your help so far, guy and girls.

[Vhaidara]

Well, it sounds like that spell is the only chance the barbarian has of surviving.

However, the real threat isn't that the barbarian will get disintegrated or deathed or stoned (DC 17 fortitude save on what should be at least a level 11/12 barbarian? cakewalk). It's him getting charmed.

As far as the casters, they're a bit screwed in 1v1, but since they have numbers, they would need to spread out so that the beholder can only AMF one of them. Then the other 3 wreck its poor face.

[Luna_Mayflower]

Well, it sounds like that spell is the only chance the barbarian has of surviving.

However, the real threat isn't that the barbarian will get disintegrated or deathed or stoned (DC 17 fortitude save on what should be at least a level 11/12 barbarian? cakewalk). It's him getting charmed.

As far as the casters, they're a bit screwed in 1v1, but since they have numbers, they would need to spread out so that the beholder can only AMF one of them. Then the other 3 wreck its poor face.

Oh, I forgot to mention, the Barbarian has a Unicorn as a companion (multiclassed as a Beloved of Valarian, which gives a Unicorn), and since it provides a Magic Circle vs Evil, charms would be suppressed by the Protection from Evil effect while anyone is near it. Unless I could get around that? Maybe the Unicorn could get turned to stone or killed?

[Vhaidara]

Quick Question: What are the actual levels involved here?
Barbarian X, Beloved of Valarian Y
Spirit Shaman X
Wizard X
Psion (also, what discipline) X
Sorcerer X, what kind of focus?

Back to the topic, the unicorn has a +9 Fort save, but gets another +2 from the magic circle, so it saves on 6+.

Honestly, I think they'll actually be completely fine. It might even be a fairly easy encounter. But the problem is if you have the beholder play too smart and the casters don't play too smart (since you are 3/4th of the casters) then the beholder could theoretically wreck face.

[Luna_Mayflower]

Quick Question: What are the actual levels involved here?
Barbarian X, Beloved of Valarian Y
Spirit Shaman X
Wizard X
Psion (also, what discipline) X
Sorcerer X, what kind of focus?

Back to the topic, the unicorn has a +9 Fort save, but gets another +2 from the magic circle, so it saves on 6+.

Honestly, I think they'll actually be completely fine. It might even be a fairly easy encounter. But the problem is if you have the beholder play too smart and the casters don't play too smart (since you are 3/4th of the casters) then the beholder could theoretically wreck face.



Barbarian 9 / Beloved of Valarian 3
Spirit Shaman 12
Wizard 10
Psion (Shaper) 12
Sorcerer 12 (de-buffing spells and damaging spells)

So party level is 12, apart from the Wizard who is the Barbarian's Cohort. I know the Beholder is CR 13, but I don't think 1 level will make much difference. The Psion also has a few spells from other Disciples due to Expanded Knowledge, or whatever it's called, such as Teleportation.

The player of the Shaman is a very experienced player, having played for 20 years +. The player of the Barbarian is much newer, only a year max. If that helps on guessing how smart they will be.

The Beholder will be a boss of sorts, before they get a good amount of respite in the city before their off to fight a Flaming Dryad Lich, but that's something else entirely. What I mean is I'd like the Beholder fight to be tough, especially since they've done lots of in-game research so I feel an easy fight would cheapen the research effort. I don't want the fight to be too life-or-death, since it's not a villain or anything, but I'd like it to be tough.

[Vhaidara]

...They're going to destroy it.

CR 13 means that a group of 4 13th level characters (you have 4 12th levels and a tenth level) should need to use a quarter of their resources.

In my foray into DMing, I had to put my group of 4 level 7s up against an ECL 12 to threaten them at all. And I had 1 veteran player, 1 NWN vet, and 2 noobs.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

...They're going to destroy it.

CR 13 means that a group of 4 13th level characters (you have 4 12th levels and a tenth level) should need to use a quarter of their resources.

In my foray into DMing, I had to put my group of 4 level 7s up against an ECL 12 to threaten them at all. And I had 1 veteran player, 1 NWN vet, and 2 noobs.

This.

Doesn't it already have anything charmed? Like Umber Hulks? Something brutal, but underground appropriate.

Maybe a charmed Mind Flayer? That has Umber Hulks as Thralls....

Or give it class levels - like right here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265213

[Luna_Mayflower]

This.

Doesn't it already have anything charmed? Like Umber Hulks? Something brutal, but underground appropriate.

Maybe a charmed Mind Flayer? That has Umber Hulks as Thralls....

Or give it class levels - like right here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265213

Right, I'm going to need to do some recombobulating. Firstly, I'll give it two or three Umber Hulk slaves, charmed, to keep it safe. I might as well have a few Drow with class levels that it's charmed. Maybe it went rogue, not wanting to be just a watchdog anymore? Also, I plan to boost it's DCs and HP a bit, to make the thing itself a threat.
Scratch that, I'm giving him a few levels of Beholder Mage, and I might make him an important villain.

Sound good? Still up for input.

[fluke1993]

Aside from making sure the Barbarian doesn't get any wise ideas about beholder mage?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Right, I'm going to need to do some recombobulating. Scratch that, I'm giving him a few levels of Beholder Mage, and I might make him an important villain.

Sound good? Still up for input.

Be very careful going down that road. Beholder Mage is obscenely powerful and it's all too easy to over-correct for the problem with this. I wouldn't give it more than 2 or 3 levels in the PrC at this time. CR chart be damned 10 levels in beholder mage is worth at least +18 cr, probably more.

[falloutimperial]

The familial reveal could be a nice, soft surprise. Get the guy talking to the party, then after the barbarian says something, her father says something like "Your mother used to say things like that." or "You've never given up on these kinds or things." or "You're staying safe, right, [name]?" or anything that betrays an unexpected familiarity.

[Bakkan]

For making sure he doesn't fail the save vs Hold Monster, consider giving him the feat Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind) from the Tome of Battle, which allows him to, once per encounter, use a Concentration check instead of a Will save as an immediate action. Since this is a skill check, it doesn't fail on a natural 1. With 2 levels of Beholder Mage on top of his 11 racial HD, he can have 16 ranks, +4 for his Constitution score, gives him a +20 to his Concentration check. If that's insufficient, you can give him the Steady Concentration feat (Races of Stone) to allow him to take 10 on the check, and/or the Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt) feat (Magic of Incarnum) for a +4 bonus. If you're going to invest heavily in his Concentration checks, I recommend taking a level of Swordsage or Warblade at some point to pick up the rest of the save-replacing maneuvers and some other utility maneuvers.

[Luna_Mayflower]

I'm thinking of making it about a lv 6-ish Mage, seeing as that gives it little more than the party level spells. It gets more, sure, but it's outnumbered 6+ to 1.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm thinking of making it about a lv 6-ish Mage, seeing as that gives it little more than the party level spells. It gets more, sure, but it's outnumbered 6+ to 1.

Not with 6 levels of beholder mage it's not.

Remember that for each level of BM the creature has that's one more spell it can cast in a round. At 6 that's six 6th level spells each round. This is only slightly weaker than a squadron of six 11th level wizards. Don't let the fact that all the HP's are in one vessel and that there are slightly fewer of them fool you into thinking this is less dangerous than it actually is.

[Luna_Mayflower]

Not with 6 levels of beholder mage it's not.

Remember that for each level of BM the creature has that's one more spell it can cast in a round. At 6 that's six 6th level spells each round. This is only slightly weaker than a squadron of six 11th level wizards. Don't let the fact that all the HP's are in one vessel and that there are slightly fewer of them fool you into thinking this is less dangerous than it actually is.

Thing is, low level spells with low CL won't be much of a threat, even two or three fireballs won't be too scary for a party with a good healer. I might go for the level 6-ish, but just be nicer on spell choice, only have it cast twice a round for example.

[Anthrowhale]

A L6 beholder mage has caster level 12 and can cast one 6th, one 5th, one 4th, one 3rd, one 2nd, one 1st, and one 0th, with a constraint of at most 3 aimed in a single direction (less if it uses some eye stalks, one more with the agile tyrant feat).

Played well, particularly in a lair of it's design, this could be a TPK.

[Vhaidara]

Perspective:
this means (in blasting terms)
Chain Lightning
Cone of Cold
Ice Storm
Fireball
Scorching Ray
Magic Missile
Acid Splash

Or, from a summoning perspective
Summon Monster 1-6
Acid Splash (no 0 level summoning)

[Luna_Mayflower]

And so did the battle commence:

Surprise round: The Beholder hid using Invisibility, then Disintegrated the floor beneath the Spirit Shaman and the Golem, both falling down a big pit.

1st Round: The Spirit Shaman used Air Walk on the Golem, getting it to carry both of them upwards.
The Wizard tried Hold Monster, but it failed against the Beholder's save.
The Barbarian hit a couple of times with her Monk Spade.
The Sorcerer opened up with Disintegrate, hitting and bypassing SR, and the Beholder didn't make it's save. It almost killed the thing in one hit.
The Beholder used Suggestion to get the Barbarian, the Golem's commander, to tell the Golem to drop the Spirit Shaman, who went into spirit form to escape falling. He then opened up with a Prismatic Spray against the party, killing the Wizard, Plane Shifting and damaging the Barbarian, damaging the Psion and Sorceror, and Plane Shifting the Unicorn.
Before the Beholder could fire again, the Psion hit it with Baleful Teleport, killing it.

Quick and lethal.

Afterwards, the Spirit Shaman recalled the Wizard's spirit, bringing him back. The Barbarian sent the Unicorn back to it's home, and has to wait till next level to recall it. The Barbarian herself fought off some Dire Wolves in the Beastlands, then contacted an Angel they're on good terms with to take her back home.

In the end, everyone survived and came out well. Wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be.

We're just having an hour break before they head off to fight The Burnt Witch, a 17th level Druid Lich who is a major boss. The Witch also has a couple of corrupt Priestesses to give it healing and such.

I know it sounds pretty tough, but they made it through the mage, should be do-able.

The Witch herself focuses on Fire damaging spells, but the party have done their homework and have some Resist Energy and Protection from Energy spells prepared to get past that. She also has a homebrew "Phoenix Form", that both boosts her spells and also damages her every turn she uses it.

The Barbarian now has a +1 Icy Burst Monk Spade (1d6/1d6 damage), while the Wizard has learnt Phantasmal Killer and Greater Invisibility from a city trader.

The father reveal was quite calm and not too dramatic, but I think I pulled it off well. However, her father, a powerful Grey-Elf Psion, is slightly mentally unsettled, seeing his Wife be murdered and having to give up his Daughter to protect her. After she goes off, against his wishes, to fight the Witch, I'm thinking he might lose it completely, maybe even try and lock her, paralysed, in a prison to 'keep her safe'.

Ideas?

[Vhaidara]

You did leave out who's father it is (shaman or barb)

Also, if it isn't too late, that druid sounds more like a Blighter (http://dndtools.eu/classes/blighter/).

[Luna_Mayflower]

Oh sorry, he's the Barbarian's father. Also, I feel a little bad. The plot-important relic they're down there for was actually never there to begin with, and the prince who told them it is is actually a bad guy who tricked them.

However, after such nasty battles, they deserve something special. Now, the Spirit Shaman will get a few special, ancient spells she can add to her list, so there's her reward. The barbarian however... I can't give her a new spade, since she's already heard of one that she wants to go on a side quest to get. So, how should I reward her?

You know what they have been / will be going through. Maybe some sort of minor artefact related to Valarian? Are there any? If not, maybe some powerful armour or other magic item the barbarian/beloved would use, just not a weapon, since she only uses her spade most of the time.

Any advice? Thanks.

[Vhaidara]

Magic Items.

Perhaps (depending on the treasure value) a set of Winged Horseshoes (especially if the barbarian is doing anything mounted with the unicorn) and a set of equivalent boots (they're reaching the point where not having flight has the potential to be crippling)

[Luna_Mayflower]

Actually, that's great. After the Caverns of Mi-Vern, where they are, they'll find out the prince (remember, the right bugger one) is using the relic to power a bunch of Airships. They could use the Unicorn to get to him when he does. Nice one, Kele.

But, I feel the Barbarian should have something nice just for her. I don't know, I'll have a think.

[Vhaidara]

That's why I threw in boots of flying.

Another idea is basic things like a Belt of Giant Strength +6.

Or you could go for Weapon Crystals from the Magic Item Compendium. That has some fun options in it. Maybe give the barbarian a few different ones, let them try them out.

[Luna_Mayflower]

She just bought a +4 Belt of Giant Strength :smallbiggrin:, but I like the horseshoe idea. For her, maybe some nice armour. I'll have a look over the DMG, still, thanks for the help. I'm off to try all this out now, I'll let you know how it goes.

[Luna_Mayflower]

And so, the battle was fought!

The priestesses were hit hard, one Time Hopped, one Plane Shifted and two dominated. The Witch opened up with Summon Monster IX to bring in a Elder Elemental, but it couldn't touch anyone due to the Warding of the Spirits the Shaman cast before hand. The Golem and Barbarian waded in, started hitting, slowly hurting the Witch through the reduction. The Witch used Quicken Dispel Magic to remove the Energetic Healing on the Barbarian, then nearly killed her with a Fire Storm.

The Shaman used Heal to bring the Barbarian back, while the Wizard went for a Cone of Cold, the Sorcerer went for a Disintegrate (which failed) and the Psion went for Baleful Teleport. The Witch then cast the homebrew spell Phenomenon, a Druidic Miracle, to restore three of her Priestesses, who quickly got Phantismal Killer'd and Dominated again.

Then, it was just a barrage of Heals, both on allies and the Witch (being a Lich, it hurt her big time) and a few other spells and powers, and the Witch went down. The PCs burnt her Phylactery, a tree, and she was gone.

Everyone liked the battle, and it was pretty grand all around.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

And so, the battle was fought!

.....

Everyone liked the battle, and it was pretty grand all around.

Sounds like everyone had a challenge and fun. Good job Luna!

[Norin]

Sounds like a blast! (ehehe... Alot of blasting makes for a blast... Duh...)

Looks like you are all having good fun.:smallbiggrin: