Eberron (So I Killed the Silver Flame...)

[Captnq]

Well, I may have killed the silver flame's god. (Don't ask how. It involved a toaster, a shower, and lots of crisco.)

What happens afterwords?

Under Eberron Campaign Setting, do the clerics lose their spells?
What happens to the kingdom who follow them?
What if it was a quiet death?
What if it was noisy and in a way that shattered the faith of a nation?

[Sian]

you mean other than Jaela calling you a meanie?

[RustyArmor]

Another player killing a god? That happens so often makes me wonder if they will just say in 5th ed. they say. "Players killed all gods so many times they are dead, no divine magic in d&d ever again."

[Yuki Akuma]

Clerics would continue to gain spells. Clerics of an ideal exist in Eberron (because everything in D&D exists in Eberron in one way or another). In fact I'm fairly sure not every god worshiped in Eberron actually really exists anyway.

Jaela might lose her increased Cleric level while in the main temple, but she'd still be a 3rd level Cleric otherwise.

[Captnq]

Another player killing a god? That happens so often makes me wonder if they will just say in 5th ed. they say. "Players killed all gods so many times they are dead, no divine magic in d&d ever again."

Player? Uh, No. I never "play". I DM. I only DM. I kill things all the time. Check this out. *tweedle* I just destroyed spring.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Basically all Eberron clerics are Ideoclerics. It's likely that some clerics will react to the Silver Flame's destruction (if they know about it) by losing their faith and thus lose their powers, but so long as they stay in accordance with the principles of the faith they're safe. Jaela losing her increased level while in the temple is possible, but questionable. It's (purposefully) never explained what the Silver Flame actually is, so what happens from here on out is entirely up to you as a DM. Maybe the destruction of the silver flame makes everyone lose their faith and the entire organization falls apart. Maybe the Silver Flame acts as a martyr and gets them into Super Religious Fervor mode and they go on a mega-crusade and conquer all of Khorvaire.

[Scow2]

The only way to "Kill" the god of the silver flame is to kill every follower, for the flame burns in each of their hearts!

[Coidzor]

Well, I may have killed the silver flame's god. (Don't ask how. It involved a toaster, a shower, and lots of crisco.)

What happens afterwords?

+++Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++

Essentially.


What happens to the kingdom who follow them?

What if it was a quiet death?

What if it was noisy and in a way that shattered the faith of a nation?

They'd probably get pretty darn cheesed, though most of the Silver Flame isn't based upon the divinity so much as the ideals.

Probably wouldn't really notice and would be kept hushed up by those with access to the Flame itself, same as any other occurrence of this sort of thing.

Well, then most of the people that were in the Church of the Silver Flame would leave, as it's based in Thrane.


Player? Uh, No. I never "play". I DM. I only DM. I kill things all the time. Check this out. *tweedle* I just destroyed spring.

Well in that case, I'd say Jaela turns into an ambulatory salami. :smalltongue:

[Calinar]

Pretty much what the others said, but there are a few more subtle thing that would happen (and some not so subtle).

Jaela would likely lose her bonus cleric levels when in the temple, as Yuki said.

The rakshasa Rajah would likely be freed from the flame and another couatl will likely appear soon to try to imprison it again (who knows, your one of players may become a part of the next silver flame if things happen similarly).

Mass panic in Thrane, the nobles will likely use this to take back Thrane from the church.

Divine casters with a lesser amount of faith may lose their powers from their faith being shaken, divine casters with stronger faith will keep theirs (Clerics of an ideal, as per what Yuki and Craft said). There are also other couatls out there being worshiped as gods as well.

News travels fast in Eberron, there will probably be some panic in other parts of the world, but not as much as in Thrane. Probably some mass conversions to the Host, lycanthropes and shifters may see this as time for some pay back and hunt down some nearby preist, clerics, and paladins of the Flame.

If it's not flashy and loud (shame on you if its not), it will probably be covered up and and things will go on as normal, unless someone has loose lips. The players involved will most likely be captured and imprisoned for life or executed, as there is no demon lord rising out of the altar bent on destroying everyone to distract the priests from your crimes.

[Captnq]

I like that last one. Thanks for the ideas. It's one of those long term, what if...? projects I work out. There is a chance a series of events may occur that results in the silver flame going Pop. Not exactly player related. More like, player instigated, then forgotten, then went on and developed without them.

No plot disappears in my campaign. You ignore something, that's fine. It festers all the same.

[Yawgmoth]

Under Eberron Campaign Setting, do the clerics lose their spells? Nope. Clerics in Eberron get their spells from the power of their faith, not from the thing they have faith in.

What happens to the kingdom who follow them?50% that the theocracy crumbles and Karrnath gives them something to lose their faith over. 50% chance they go totally ape**** and turn this cold war very hot.

What if it was a quiet death? Then very little would chance since the cardinals wouldn't let that death get outside flamekeep.

What if it was noisy and in a way that shattered the faith of a nation? See #2.

[Turion]

Err... isn't the Silver Flame pretty much the only thing keeping the Rajahs trapped in Khyber? If so, you're looking at a sudden upsurge of ECL 60+ demon rampages.

[Prime32]

It's (purposefully) never explained what the Silver Flame actually is, so what happens from here on out is entirely up to you as a DM.It's explained right from the beginning. :smallconfused: It's the fused souls of the entire coautl species and some of their allies, which acts as a worldwide seal on the rakshasa rajahs (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Overlords), and has its most well-known manifestation in Flamekeep (a prison for Bel Shalor, better known as The Shadow in the Flame).

If you somehow destroyed it, that would release all the rajahs at once, who would proceed to kill everything by virtue of being a group of around thirty CR 50+ evil gods.
If you're talking about just the flame in Flamekeep, then only Bel Shalor would be released, but so would Tira Miron and a coautl if they're still alive, and they could help to seal it again. Or possibly (if you want to go by the Dragon #344 Dreadhold article) nothing is released, causing a schism as some Flamists grow convinced that the central tenets of their church were lies.

[Phelix-Mu]

I was in an epic campaign where Sephiroth got the Silver Flame tainted with Jenova and hopes of "Reunion." The Flame's incarnation then tried to murder our party, despite our attempts at negotiation, and we were forced to kill her (with a blast from a BFG from DOOM...sadly my monk/wizard, who was grappling the Flame at the time, under several tons of stone, also got caught in the blast radius).

Eberron seemed to go on, but shortly thereafter, the entire D&D cosmology/multiverse/every campaign setting was destroyed in short order after Gundam Tharizdun showed up and beheaded our employer, Ao. So we never really learned how it affected Eberron in a political or cultural sense.

[Craft (Cheese)]

It's explained right from the beginning. :smallconfused: It's the fused souls of the entire coautl species and some of their allies, which acts as a worldwide seal on the rakshasa rajahs (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Overlords), and has its most well-known manifestation in Flamekeep (a prison for Bel Shalor, better known as The Shadow in the Flame).

I mean, in terms of its supposed divinity. Should have been clearer about that, sorry.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Well, I may have killed the silver flame's god. (Don't ask how. It involved a toaster, a shower, and lots of crisco.)

What happens afterwords?

Under Eberron Campaign Setting, do the clerics lose their spells?

Probably not - Eberron Clerics may or may not draw their power from their god(s), and it seems to lean more towards the latter, since corrupt and heretical Clerics retain their casting. Clerics of 'lesser faith' may have issues, but given how Clerics are described in Eberron, those strike me as likely to be a rare breed indeed.


What happens to the kingdom who follow them?

As has been said, Diani ir'Wynarn (the current heir to the throne of Thrane) would probably use such an event as a chance to place herself and her family back on the throne.


What if it was a quiet death?

If you mean a death which could be hushed up, there are definitely forces in the Council of Cardinals who would take every necessary step to hush it up. Great source of conspiracy if you want to go that direction.


What if it was noisy and in a way that shattered the faith of a nation?

Then you're likely to see a lot of people having crises of faith, and probably waves of conversion (and waves of missionaries passing into Thrane, in a reversal of the status quo). You might also see the genesis of a "Church/Cult of the Martyred Flame" which could either be basically the same church, or it could go all "Cult of a Dead God, roll against SAN loss" sort of thing.

Also, the whole "cult of a dead god" thing could be present if the Council of Cardinals managed to keep the death of the Flame quiet - the Cardinals privy to that information might become adherents of such a cult.

As far as Jaela losing her advanced Cleric level, that may happen, it may not - there's no telling if it is an ongoing effect maintained by the Flame or if it is an persistent magical artifact from the defeat of the imprisoned Rajah. Speaking of which, whether the Rajah is killed or freed as part of this killing the Flame business, the Lords of Dust are likely to be interested in/concerned with/involved in the future of the church (the potential to eliminate or subvert one of their great enemies isn't something they'd squander). Also, you'd have to consider what would happen to those tribes in the Demon Wastes which follow their own version of the Silver Flame. And if the Rajah is freed (or if the church is subverted) the Dragons will likely get involved, quite possibly directly.

Since the Clerics aren't likely to lose their powers, I doubt the Shifters/Lycanthropes are likely to try and club every Flamer (and yes, that is what the faithful are called) they can reach. And if it is anything less than an incredibly well kept secret, the destruction of the flame is going to be a world shaking event, so it would be a little unreasonable for your players to simply forget about it.

At least, that's my take.

[Captnq]

Okay, to continue...

Is it the agreement that the silver flame IS the life force from the Sacrifice of the Couatls, or as it states on page 58 of faiths of eberron, the sacrifice merely opened the door to the silver flame and it could not be closed afterwords?


This effects if it can be killed, or if killing it affects the Sacrifice of the Couatls.

[Spore]

With Jaela's additional levels gone, she would just be assassinated by her cardinal. He would take over the organization, pushing them to religious martyrism towards other nations effectively reigniting the last war. But if the demons hit Khorvaire...let's just ask ourselves how attached we're to Khorvaire as is and how appealing a post apocalyptic magepunk world is for your campaign. :)

All hail our demonic overlords!

[Prime32]

With Jaela's additional levels gone, she would just be assassinated by her cardinal.I'm pretty sure that Krozen could have assassinated a trusting little girl by now if he really wanted to, especially when he knows when she'll be outside Flamekeep and probably assigns her bodyguards himself. It's left ambiguous whether he wants to use her as a figurehead or just doesn't want to trouble her with the darker side of politics.