View Full Version : Zman's E10 Monk(3.5)
This is part of my E10 project aimed at creating a richer and more balanced DnD experience. The classes are meant to be balanced between between Tiers 2-4. A 20th level character ends up as a 10//10 Gestalt.
Monk
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |Flurry of Blows|Unarmed Damage|AC Bonus|Speed Bonus
1st|+0|+2|+2|+2|Bonus Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Ascetic Athleticism, Fast Movement, Slow Fall|-2/-2|1d6|+0|+10 ft.
2nd|+1|+3|+3|+3|Bonus Feat, Evasion|-1/-1|1d6|+1|+10 ft.
3rd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Still Mind, Intuitive Relexes|+0/+0|1d6|+1|+10 ft.
4th|+3|+4|+4|+4|Ki Strike (+1 magic)|+1/+1|1d8|+2|+10 ft.
5th|+3|+4|+4|+4|Purity of Body, Uncanny Dodge|+2/+2|1d8|+2|+10 ft.
6th|+4|+5|+5|+5|Bonus Feat|+3/+3|1d8|+3|+20 ft.
7th|+5/+1|+5|+5|+5|Wholeness of Body|+4/+4/+0|1d10|+3|+20 ft.
8th|+6/+2|+6|+6|+6|Improved Evasion|+5/+5/+1|1d10|+4|+20 ft.
9th|+6/+2|+6|+6|+6|Improved Uncanny Dodge |+6/+6/+2|1d10|+4|+20 ft.
10th|+7/+3|+7|+7|+7|Greater Flurry, Timeless body|+7/+7/+7/+3|2d6|+5|+20 ft.
[/table]
Alignment
Any Nonchaotic
Hit Die
d8.
Class Skills
The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level
(6 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
6 + Int modifier.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the monk.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Monks are proficient with bow(short bow and longbow), club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 2nd level. This bonus increases by 1 for every two monk levels thereafter (+2 at 4th, +3 at 6th, +4 at 8th, and +5 at 10th level).
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.
Flurry of Blows (Ex)
When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk may use a standard, full, or charge attack to strike with a flurry of blows.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (bow(short bow and longbow), kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands unless the monk is attacking with a ranged weapon, then it does not apply a strength bonus to damage. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.
Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. A Monk can choose to make an offhand attack as per two weapon fighting rules. All normal two weapon fighting rules apply, unarmed strikes count as light weapons. A monk may apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. A Monk's unarmed strike counts as a medium weapon for attempts to Disarm and Sunder Weapons.
A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage. A small Monk deals unarmed damage equal to hr Monk level -3 starting at a d4. A Large Monk deals damage equal to her Monk level +3, each size category larger adds an additional 3 on to her Monk level.
Effective Monk Level
11th 2d6
12th 2d6
13th 2d8
14th 2d8
15th 2d10
16th 2d10
17th 2d10
18th 3d6
19th 3d6
20th 3d6
Ascetic Athleticism
The Monk is capable of incredible feats of Athleticism and adds one half their Monk level to any Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Hide, Move Silently, Swim and Tumble check.
Also, a Monk receives a bonus equal to 1/2 his Monk level up to his Wisdom Modifier to break items and to perform combat maneuvers, Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, and Trip.
Bonus Feat
At 1st, 2nd, and 6th level a Monk can select any Fighter Bonus feat, Intuitive Attack, Ascetic Diversity, or Zen Archery. The Monk needs to meet the prerequisites as normal to select these feats with the exception of Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Intuitive Attack, Stunning Fist, and Zen Archery.
Evasion (Ex)
At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Fast Movement (Ex)
At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.
Still Mind (Ex)
A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment and Illusion.
Intuitive Reflexes
At 3rd level, a Monk adds their Wisdom Modifier to Initiative in addition to their Dexterity Modifier.
Ki Strike (Su)
At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
A Monk's unarmed strikes also receive an +1 enhancement bonus to hit and to damage at 4th level, increasing to +2 at 7th level and +3 at 10th level.
Slow Fall (Ex)
At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm’s reach of a wall or other suitable surface can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 5 feet per Monk level shorter than it actually is.
Purity of Body (Ex)
At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases including supernatural and magical diseases.
Uncanny Dodge
At 5th level, a Monk retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a Monk already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.
Wholeness of Body (Su)
At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to twice her current monk level each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.
Improved Evasion (Ex)
At 8th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
At 9th level and higher, a Monk can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the Monk by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has Monk levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.
Greater Flurry
When a monk reaches 10th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.
Timeless Body (Ex)
Upon attaining 10th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up.
Ex-Monks
A monk who becomes chaotic cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.
Monk Feats
Ascetic Diversity
Requirements: Monk
Benefit: The Monk selects one additional class, the levels in the selected class are added to your monk class level for calculating some Monk based Special Abilities(Unarmed Damage, AC Bonus, Fast Movement, and Ascetic Athleticism). This feat does not advance any other class feature such as Flurry of Blows, nor does it grant new Monk Special Abilities. Ascetic Diversity can not raise your effective Monk level beyond your total Hit Dice.
ACF's
Carmedine Monk
Level: 1st
Replace: Wisdom with Int for all class features.
Gain: All Knowledge Skills as Class Skills.
Lose: Monk AC Bonus increases by one for every three levels, not two(+2 at 5th, and +3 at 8th level)
Martial Arts Master
Level: 1st
Lose: Medium BAB, Good Will Save, D8 Hit Dice, Still Mind, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Abundant Step, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Empty Body, Perfect Self.
Gain: Full BAB, Poor Will Save, D10 Hit Dice. Monk Unarmed Damage Progression as a Monk four levels higher.
Change Log
1-2-14
Ki Strike +2 at 7th, +3 at 10th.
1-3-14
Added Hide to Ascetic Athleticism
Added a 1/2 Monk level bonus to Combat Maneuvers as part of Aestetic Athleticism.
Unarmed Strikes count as Medium for Disarm and Sunder attempt.
Still Mind works against Illusion.
Aaaaand monks are till sadface. Please, give the poor guys full BAB and d12 hit dice. As it stands,even in this E10 system, they are really bad at being melee combatants. Their primary attack feature makes them less accurate as is, their primary defensive feature makes them have lower AC on top of having less Hit Points than the other up front guys. And they still have lower overall physical stats because they need to keep Wisdom up so their damage, HP, and AC all suffer.
Giving flurry of blows to Monk's as standard actions helps some with the mobility/attack synergy, but you haven't addressed the main problem which is being sub-par in everything they try and do.
Compare him to Grunk the Barbarian. We will both be human to make it easier. With 25 PB, Grunk decides on a 17 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 8 in all mental stats. Monk McGee goes with a 14 in Str, Dex, Con, and Wis and has 1 point left over. He needs all four stats to perform, so can hardly specialize.
During their level one careers, Grunk ends up getting a breastplate and a buckler. Monk McGee doesn't need armor, though, so let's compare AC.
Grunk has 10+2(Dex)+5(Armor)+1(Shield) for a total of 18, (or 16 in a rage.)
Monk McGee has 10+2(Dex)+2(Wis)+1(Monk Bonus) for a total of 15. Yeah, he doesn't need to spend any gold on it, but the cost of mundane armor is a pittance compared to what he needs to invest to bring his AC up to the level of a raging Barbarian who focused himself in Strength. By the time they hit fourth level, Monk McGee gains +1 AC but Grunk finds a +1 Breastplate is cheaper than a Bracers of Armor +1 so is still better off.
Okay, well, speed... Up until fourth level, they both have the same potential for Speed. Grunk may be slowed down by armor, but that isn't a selling point for Monk since Grunk has the option not to wear Armor and be faster while Monk McGee has no such option to wear armor. Being pigeonholed into the speed boosting choice is not actually a boost to speed.
Hit Points? At level one, Monk McGee has 10 HP while Grunk has 14 or 15 in a rage. A 50% bonus over his gimped ally. The problem only get worse as levels advance. By fourth level, Monk McGee has 29 HP while Grunk has 45 HP when raging and 41 when normal. That's nearly 65% more health. Factoring in his lower Armor Class, Monk McGee is probably going to last half as long as Grunk on the battlefield. That's before considering things like Damage Reduction.
What about offense? A CR encounter should have somewhere around 15 AC, 10 or so HP. With a flurry of blows, Monk McGee has two attacks at +0, dealing an average of 5.5 damage 25% of the time. That's less than a 45% chance one attack will connect, meaning less than 2.5 damage on average. Meanwhile, Grunk has one attack at +6, connecting 55% of the time. If uses a greataxe, that's an average of nearly 7.5 a round. Three times the output of the Monk and that is not considering criticals, which a weapon user wins out on.
Even if the Monk lands both blows and rolls max damage, (a literal 1/1000 occurrence,) that's only 16 damage. Meanwhile, a normal hit which happens more than half the time from Grunk with average damage rolls does 14 damage. A confirmed crit with max damage is only a 1/250 occurrence and deals 57 damage. The Barbarians best case scenario, mathematically, is 16 times better than the monks if we factor in the odds of either one happening.
This is all ignoring Power Attack an assuming a less than optimal weapon choice for the Barbarian, (which would be Greatsword.)
"What about dealing with hordes of weak enemies? The monk can one shot two guys." The Barbarian need only take Cleave and be leaps and bounds above the monk in this department. Monks offense, like everything else, is garbage.
At 4th level, it isn't any better. AC has scaled faster than his attack bonus, so he hits even less now, while AC has scaled slower than the Barbarian's attack bonus so he hits more often. The problem is now much worse.
Monks get some more skill points now, which is nice, except the Monk can't ever afford Intelligence so has to dump it. Grunk could easily live with a 16 starting Strength and 13 Con or so and have 12 Int if he wished and not lose out on much, whereas dropping down to 10 Str, Dex, Con, or Wis would drastically hurt the Monk. So the Monk only has a superficial, if not artificial, advantage in Skill Points.
The last thing Monks get an edge in is saves. This is okay, except the Barbarian hardly needs to worry about Reflexes and already gets a +2 bonus on the most important Will saves while raging. The Monk gets a slight edge here, but it isn't very big.
We could do the same thing compared to a Fighter or Melee Ranger or Melee Rogue and prove that Monk is, by far, the worse melee fighter in the game. I think it would be appropriate to start the Monks H2H progression at a d10 at level 1, (still quite a bit less damage than a level 1 Barbarian,) full BAB, (still less accurate than a Barbarian or Fighter,) and d12 hit dice, (still less HP than a raging Barbarian.) I'd also throw in Wis to HP instead of Con to represent spiritual health transferring over to physical health or something to reduce the crazy MAD. Even with all those changes, I wouldn't like monk. But it would be more balanced.
I like what you are doing here overall, but the Monk needs a lot of work. As it is, it is just too similar to the craptastic WotC version.
Ok, great response. I'll respond to each of your points in color.
Aaaaand monks are till sadface. Please, give the poor guys full BAB and d12 hit dice. As it stands,even in this E10 system, they are really bad at being melee combatants. Their primary attack feature makes them less accurate as is, their primary defensive feature makes them have lower AC on top of having less Hit Points than the other up front guys. And they still have lower overall physical stats because they need to keep Wisdom up so their damage, HP, and AC all suffer.
Ok, I think this is our first problem. You believe the the Monk is a primary frontliner? They are capable of being up there, but delegating them to that task is erroneous. Full BAB, a D12 is a bit excessive. I already have an ACF which gives them Full BAB, a D10, and better Unarmed Damage.
Giving flurry of blows to Monk's as standard actions helps some with the mobility/attack synergy, but you haven't addressed the main problem which is being sub-par in everything they try and do.
Sub-par in everything else... what exactly are they trying to do and who are they being compared against?
Compare him to Grunk the Barbarian. We will both be human to make it easier. With 25 PB, Grunk decides on a 17 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 8 in all mental stats. Monk McGee goes with a 14 in Str, Dex, Con, and Wis and has 1 point left over. He needs all four stats to perform, so can hardly specialize.
Sure, I'll go with this. I already know where this is going, comparing/contrating a frontline damage specialist with a class that is not meant to compete in that way.
During their level one careers, Grunk ends up getting a breastplate and a buckler. Monk McGee doesn't need armor, though, so let's compare AC.
Grunk has 10+2(Dex)+5(Armor)+1(Shield) for a total of 18, (or 16 in a rage.)
Grunk is a pretty wealthy 1st level character with a pretty optimal setup. More likely Grunk at 1st level would have Studden Leather, and a Buckler, but it is possible for him to get that before level 2. More likely its 16/14 or 17/15. And the Medium armor is slowing him down.
Monk McGee has 10+2(Dex)+2(Wis)+1(Monk Bonus) for a total of 15. Yeah, he doesn't need to spend any gold on it, but the cost of mundane armor is a pittance compared to what he needs to invest to bring his AC up to the level of a raging Barbarian who focused himself in Strength. By the time they hit fourth level, Monk McGee gains +1 AC but Grunk finds a +1 Breastplate is cheaper than a Bracers of Armor +1 so is still better off.
Actulaly Monk doesn't get the +1 until 2nd level. So he is a bit worse off than that at AC14. Equal to a raging barbarian who has optimized AC.
By Level 4 he is at AC16 without items. Also has a free unarmored enhancement bonus which the Barbarian has to pay for, and bracers of armor are actually cheaper than a +1 Breastplate, but a Periapt of Wisdom would be a better buy for the Monk but more costly, ~1k more expensive than the Armor and Weapon for the Barbarian.
Okay, well, speed... Up until fourth level, they both have the same potential for Speed. Grunk may be slowed down by armor, but that isn't a selling point for Monk since Grunk has the option not to wear Armor and be faster while Monk McGee has no such option to wear armor. Being pigeonholed into the speed boosting choice is not actually a boost to speed.
Grunk is wearing armor, and as you've stated the optimal choice is Medium. So a boost to speed is actually significant. Don't forget double the bonus to Initiative.
Hit Points? At level one, Monk McGee has 10 HP while Grunk has 14 or 15 in a rage. A 50% bonus over his gimped ally. The problem only get worse as levels advance. By fourth level, Monk McGee has 29 HP while Grunk has 45 HP when raging and 41 when normal. That's nearly 65% more health. Factoring in his lower Armor Class, Monk McGee is probably going to last half as long as Grunk on the battlefield. That's before considering things like Damage Reduction.
Yep, every other class is in the same boat, no one has as much HP as a Raging Barbarian, at 4th level a 14Con Fighter only has 5 more HP than the Monk.
What about offense? A CR encounter should have somewhere around 15 AC, 10 or so HP. With a flurry of blows, Monk McGee has two attacks at +0, dealing an average of 5.5 damage 25% of the time. That's less than a 45% chance one attack will connect, meaning less than 2.5 damage on average. Meanwhile, Grunk has one attack at +6, connecting 55% of the time. If uses a greataxe, that's an average of nearly 7.5 a round. Three times the output of the Monk and that is not considering criticals, which a weapon user wins out on.
Well, at 1st level a CR approatraite enemy would be a Goblin, Kobold, or Orc. So, we are looking at AC13-15 with HP4-5(9 if you give them Max).
At 1st Level Monk McGee can two hand a quarterstaff for 1gp for +0/+0 at a d6+3 averaging 6.5 Damage, a more optimal choice. Grunk will be two handing a Greatsword or Greataxe for either a +3(+5Rage) d12(2d6) +4/(7Rage)Damage depending on Rage.
Vs a Kobold Monk McGe hits at least once 51% of the time dropping a Kobold to the minimum of 0. He has an 18% chance of dropping two Kobolds.
Vs a Kobold Grunk hits 45/55% of the time Killing one Kobold. At the two Feat Investment of Cleave he could kill two 20/30% of the time.
Vs an Orc Monk McGee hits at least once 64% of the time and dropping an Orc 53% of the time and 24% of the time drops two Orcs.
Vs an Orc Grunk hits 55/65% of the time killing One Orc. At the two Feat Investment of Cleave he could kill two 30%/42% of the time.
Even if the Monk lands both blows and rolls max damage, (a literal 1/1000 occurrence,) that's only 16 damage. Meanwhile, a normal hit which happens more than half the time from Grunk with average damage rolls does 14 damage. A confirmed crit with max damage is only a 1/250 occurrence and deals 57 damage. The Barbarians best case scenario, mathematically, is 16 times better than the monks if we factor in the odds of either one happening.
Your math is WAY off for chances of rolling max damage. I won't even bother correcting all of it. Yes, the Barbarian deals more damage.
This is all ignoring Power Attack an assuming a less than optimal weapon choice for the Barbarian, (which would be Greatsword.)
Yep, and once you add power attack into to the mix you are lowing your chance to hit. This level on variables will easily get unusable for the vaacume comparison.
"What about dealing with hordes of weak enemies? The monk can one shot two guys." The Barbarian need only take Cleave and be leaps and bounds above the monk in this department. Monks offense, like everything else, is garbage.
I already addressed this above. Its not as bad as you make it out to be. Again, we are also dealing with the Barbarian's speciality.
At 4th level, it isn't any better. AC has scaled faster than his attack bonus, so he hits even less now, while AC has scaled slower than the Barbarian's attack bonus so he hits more often. The problem is now much worse.
Enemy ACs aren't scaling faster than a Monks BAB and the monk is recieving a free +1 Enhancement bonus. Once he has a Periapt of Wisdom and Intuitive Attack he nets another couple of bonus points. After this point his Flurry Penalties begin to disappear.
Monks get some more skill points now, which is nice, except the Monk can't ever afford Intelligence so has to dump it. Grunk could easily live with a 16 starting Strength and 13 Con or so and have 12 Int if he wished and not lose out on much, whereas dropping down to 10 Str, Dex, Con, or Wis would drastically hurt the Monk. So the Monk only has a superficial, if not artificial, advantage in Skill Points.
Both are dumping Int, only difference is the Monk still has more skill points.
The last thing Monks get an edge in is saves. This is okay, except the Barbarian hardly needs to worry about Reflexes and already gets a +2 bonus on the most important Will saves while raging. The Monk gets a slight edge here, but it isn't very big.
You are marginalizing Saves. The barbarian has an edge in Fortidude due to Ragin. Good Reflex Saves coupled with Evasion is great. Later Improved Evasion is huge.
Will save is the big one. Without a Rage at level 1 the Barbarian is 5 behind, 3 while raging. By 4th level the Barbarian is still 5/3 behind and 7/5 behind vs Enchantment. By level 10 the Barbarian is 10/8 behind and 12/10 vs Enchantment behind after Periapt of Wisdom, Ability Increases, etc. Grunk may deal a ton of damage, but when the enemies have access to Color Spray or Sleep, its an entirely different ball game.
Oh, and you forgot about Feats, the Monk has a few bonus ones, which can be used to shore up weaknesses not to mention free Enhancement bonuses, auto improving defenses, and access to discretionary wealth beyond the Barbarian that can be used to shore up much of those deficiencies.
We could do the same thing compared to a Fighter or Melee Ranger or Melee Rogue and prove that Monk is, by far, the worse melee fighter in the game. I think it would be appropriate to start the Monks H2H progression at a d10 at level 1, (still quite a bit less damage than a level 1 Barbarian,) full BAB, (still less accurate than a Barbarian or Fighter,) and d12 hit dice, (still less HP than a raging Barbarian.) I'd also throw in Wis to HP instead of Con to represent spiritual health transferring over to physical health or something to reduce the crazy MAD. Even with all those changes, I wouldn't like monk. But it would be more balanced.
You can do most of that with my offered ACF. I think your comparisons fall apart and are far less significant that you make them out to be.
I like what you are doing here overall, but the Monk needs a lot of work. As it is, it is just too similar to the craptastic WotC version.
The Monk cannot compete with a Barbarian for Damage output especially at lower levels as the Monk is the a dedicated frontline class. The Monk brings a lot of different things to the table and is more than a frontline bruiser like the barbarian. And if Damage is what you are after a Monks Belt and Improved Natural Attack boost your Monk's damage quite significantly. And without a ton of investment you can pump your AC into the 40s. All of that is even greater with an ACF.
The Monk may not bring more Damage to the Table, but he can easily bring more mobility, better saves, ridiculous AC, and a better Initiative.
Ok i'm still working through the various thread's you've put up but here's a few important point in response to your response from my PoV.
1. The way you've designed the Monk all he does well is hit thingas and get hit in turn so saying he's not designed to be as good as a barbarian at those thigs is the same as saying it's supposed to be a weaker class.
2. I use this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=mqg1bdtli1fa5772tt1v9v4i62&topic=11336.msg388252#msg388252) as my guide-stone for expected stats at a given CR level. The Orc for it's CR rating is mnoticably below average i both AC and HP's
3. In the same vein it would be fairer to assume the Monk and Barbarian are two member of the same party, in which case the opponent will be of a higher CR than if it was a solo fight. Whilst there does at a cashual glance appear to be some math issues with his examples it's still true that the barb average's higher damage per swing and better hit rates.
4. Because of the different BAB progressions the to-hit rate and number of iterative attacks of a Barb are going to be higher than a Monk's and that difference is going to grow after level 1. So even if we assume affairs are break even now, they certainly aren't going to be break even later on.
Basically i don't think thinks are quite as bad as SowZ is saying here, but they're not as perfect as your making out either. IMO of course. Going to go over the rest of your classes now :).
Ok, great response. I'll respond to each of your points in color.
The Monk cannot compete with a Barbarian for Damage output especially at lower levels as the Monk is the a dedicated frontline class. The Monk brings a lot of different things to the table and is more than a frontline bruiser like the barbarian. And if Damage is what you are after a Monks Belt and Improved Natural Attack boost your Monk's damage quite significantly. And without a ton of investment you can pump your AC into the 40s. All of that is even greater with an ACF.
The Monk may not bring more Damage to the Table, but he can easily bring more mobility, better saves, ridiculous AC, and a better Initiative.
My math is precise, actually. But what do you think the monk is good at? He has okay saves. That's... It. He's by far the worst damage of all martial classes, the worst AC, (no, his AC is not ridiculous. It's awful. His Dex and Wis aren't good enough. His initiative isn't so great, either. His combined Dex and Wis is unlikely to be much higher than a Rogues straight Dex and may be similar to a Rangers straight Dex, too. A halfway optimized Wizard will still blow him out of the water on initiative.
He is worse at it then other classes since his Dex can't be very good because he is so mad.
What's this monk supposed to excel at? He's an okay scout, I suppose, but without near the scouting utility of a ranger or rogue. He's not a frontline fighter. He doesn't have much out of combat and the low int a Monk is bound to have makes him a poor skillmonkey. He can't afford Charisma so he's a poor face. His low AC, (show me how his AC is anything but terrible.) and low HP, (a lousy Hit Die and can't afford a high con,) make him not very durable.
There's no excuse for a purely martial, no spellcasting character not to have at least d10 HD and full BAB. Its just penalizing an already gimped class for no reason.
Also, as I proved, the damage of a monk compared to Barbarian is not especially obvious at low levels as the problem gets worse as you level up. The monks attack bonus scales slower than appropriate CR monster AC will, meaning as the game goes on the monk gets worse and worse like a poorly built Oblivion character.
If you want, I can blow by blow why the monk is a worse melee combatant than fighter, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, paladin, NPC Warrior, duskblade, ranger, you name it. Barbarian is just the easiest example, but Monk is fail across the board.
For the same investment you can pump Monks AC into the forties, I can get a fighter into the 60s or 70s.
He has good saves, but that doesn't really allow him to fill a role. Just makes him all around little more defensive. If your goal is to make all class tier 2-4, this isn't there yet. This Monk is still Tier 6, you haven't made any real significant changes.
It is fair to compare monk to frontliner classes because, without spells and such, charging in and punching things is going to be the majority of what the class does. Being on the frontline and taking damage/dealing damage is what most play time is spent doing because in combat this monk has no other options. And, as it stands, it will take 3 or 4 monks to surpass the effectiveness of 1 barbarian at this role. When you spend a lot of time running up to things and punching them, you don't want your friend to be clearly twice as good at it as you.
If you are a out of combat focused character, you might be okay with that. But when every spellcaster and the rogue are going to far outshine you out of combat, too, you are left with nothing of which you are the master at.
Ok i'm still working through the various thread's you've put up but here's a few important point in response to your response from my PoV.
1. The way you've designed the Monk all he does well is hit thingas and get hit in turn so saying he's not designed to be as good as a barbarian at those thigs is the same as saying it's supposed to be a weaker class.
2. I use this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=mqg1bdtli1fa5772tt1v9v4i62&topic=11336.msg388252#msg388252) as my guide-stone for expected stats at a given CR level. The Orc for it's CR rating is mnoticably below average i both AC and HP's
3. In the same vein it would be fairer to assume the Monk and Barbarian are two member of the same party, in which case the opponent will be of a higher CR than if it was a solo fight. Whilst there does at a cashual glance appear to be some math issues with his examples it's still true that the barb average's higher damage per swing and better hit rates.
4. Because of the different BAB progressions the to-hit rate and number of iterative attacks of a Barb are going to be higher than a Monk's and that difference is going to grow after level 1. So even if we assume affairs are break even now, they certainly aren't going to be break even later on.
Basically i don't think thinks are quite as bad as SowZ is saying here, but they're not as perfect as your making out either. IMO of course. Going to go over the rest of your classes now :).
What math issues? For the monks maximum damage, the odds of rolling a 15-20 twice in a row and two sixes in a row is that low.
Grod_The_Giant
2014-01-02, 04:00 PM
Flurry of Blows changes make him a wonderful dip for an archer cleric. That's about it, really. You haven't addressed MAD-- Intuitive Attack still leaves you needing Strength for damage. Ascetic Athleticism is a disappointingly small bonus.
To boost damage, how 'bout adding some skirmish?
Ok i'm still working through the various thread's you've put up but here's a few important point in response to your response from my PoV.
1. The way you've designed the Monk all he does well is hit thingas and get hit in turn so saying he's not designed to be as good as a barbarian at those thigs is the same as saying it's supposed to be a weaker class.
2. I use this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=mqg1bdtli1fa5772tt1v9v4i62&topic=11336.msg388252#msg388252) as my guide-stone for expected stats at a given CR level. The Orc for it's CR rating is mnoticably below average i both AC and HP's
3. In the same vein it would be fairer to assume the Monk and Barbarian are two member of the same party, in which case the opponent will be of a higher CR than if it was a solo fight. Whilst there does at a cashual glance appear to be some math issues with his examples it's still true that the barb average's higher damage per swing and better hit rates.
4. Because of the different BAB progressions the to-hit rate and number of iterative attacks of a Barb are going to be higher than a Monk's and that difference is going to grow after level 1. So even if we assume affairs are break even now, they certainly aren't going to be break even later on.
Basically i don't think thinks are quite as bad as SowZ is saying here, but they're not as perfect as your making out either. IMO of course. Going to go over the rest of your classes now :).
1. The Monk can do a number of things ok, but specializing in dealing damage is not one of them. Monks are good Caster Killers, they have the mobility and ability to get to Casters despite alot of Battlefield control. They have great saves, and are rarely incapacitated. They may not excel at dealing damage, that does not mean you can't make them deal damage.
2. I just looked at Monsters in the appropriate CR range, that was three of them and very common ones at that.
3. Or, there will be more of the lower CR threats. We've already established the Barbarian is better at killing things. The Barbarian is also terrible at many things the Monk is at least passable at.
4. There is alot that changes at the higher levels, simply taking intuitive attack nets Wisdom to Hit instead of Strength, and quickly helps some of the issues.
My math is precise, actually. But what do you think the monk is good at? He has okay saves. That's... It. He's by far the worst damage of all martial classes, the worst AC, (no, his AC is not ridiculous. It's awful. His Dex and Wis aren't good enough. Why is his initiative good? He is worse at it then other classes since his Dex can't be very good because he is so mad.
Precise? Not quite.
Intuitive Reflexes means Wis + Dex to Init
Monk's AC can be very good.
At Level 10 with a base 14 Dex and 14Wis.
Base10 + 4 Dex(Gloves) + Monk(Monk's Belt)7 +5Wis(14+2+4) +8Bracers +3RoP +3Nat = AC40 with minimal effort for a level 10 character. Please tell me how you are getting other martial character in the 60s or 70s with that minimal GP investment. Only take 2 inherent ability improvement, +8 Bracers of Armor, +3 Ring of Protection +3 Amulet of Natural Armor+3(With Periapt of Wisdom +4), Gloves of Dexterity +4, and a Monks Belt.
Please, please, oh wise one of infinite knowledge, enlighten me.
What's this monk supposed to excel at? He's an okay scout, I suppose, but without near the scouting utility of a ranger or rogue. He's not a frontline fighter. He doesn't have much out of combat and the low int a Monk is bound to have makes him a poor skillmonkey. He can't afford Charisma so he's a poor face. His low AC, (show me how his AC is anything but terrible.) and low HP, (a lousy Hit Die and can't afford a high con,) make him not very durable.
The Monk, especially after mid levels is a god defensive mobile combatant. He is highly mobile, has good skills, and enough melee to threaten certain enemies, set up flanks, and move around the battlefield without being hurt. Easy to hit AC in the 40s, avoid AoOs, and get just about anywhere within 100' per round.
There's no excuse for a purely martial, no spellcasting character not to have at least d10 HD and full BAB. Its just penalizing an already gimped class for no reason.
Also, as I proved, the damage of a monk compared to Barbarian is not especially obvious at low levels as the problem gets worse as you level up. The monks attack bonus scales slower than appropriate CR monster AC will, meaning as the game goes on the monk gets worse and worse like a poorly built Oblivion character.
If you want, I can blow by blow why the monk is a worse melee combatant than fighter, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, paladin, NPC Warrior, duskblade, ranger, you name it. Barbarian is just the easiest example, but Monk is fail across the board.
For the same investment you can pump Monks AC into the forties, I can get a fighter into the 60s or 70s.
He has good saves, but that doesn't really allow him to fill a role. Just makes him all around little more defensive. If your goal is to make all class tier 2-4, this isn't there yet. This Monk is still Tier 6, you haven't made any real significant changes.
What math issues? For the monks maximum damage, the odds of rolling a 15-20 twice in a row and two sixes in a row is that low.
Basically, the Monk is not a Damage machine, its a Mobile combatant capable of holding its own, he is not capable of doing as much damage as a Barbarian, especially at lower levels. The Monk also has the best saves in the game with a decent Dex, Con, and Wis making him have the best average saves in the game. Where the Barbarian will be Will Save or Suck, the Monk will still be mobile.
Math issues, the odds of rolling Max Damage with a Greatsword....1/10 for a 19 or 20, 3/4 for a 6+ confirmation, 1/36 chance or rolling max damage on 2d6 and 1/36 of rolling Max Damage on the Critical Damage .... is ~1/17280. A bit of a difference than 1/250.
Monk is Tier 6? Are you high? The Core Monk is Tier 5? I didn't make it worse... You think this monk is just as good as a Base Warrior or Commoner? Wow...
Flurry of Blows changes make him a wonderful dip for an archer cleric. That's about it, really. You haven't addressed MAD-- Intuitive Attack still leaves you needing Strength for damage. Ascetic Athleticism is a disappointingly small bonus.
To boost damage, how 'bout adding some skirmish?
Yes, the Monk is still mad, and yes, a fantastic dip for an Archer Cleric, but honestly, they can just buy a Monk's Belt for the AC, and take Rapid Shot, so its not outside the realm of possibility.
I could add skirmish, but its already an ACF for my Rogue, and Barbarian, and as my E10 is meant to be Gestalted, Full BAB can be attained if you really want it, so can a larger HD, so can Skirmish, etc.
Aesetic Athleticisms was a thematic bonus to the physical skills, I may make it full Monk level bonus, but it was more thematic and cosmetic.
Grod_The_Giant
2014-01-02, 04:53 PM
I'm not sure how you're calling that a "minor investment" in AC-- you exceeded WBL threefold there.
Yes, the Monk is still mad
MAD is a massive problem for any class, and since you're already homebrewing, there really isn't an excuse not to do something about it. Let them use Dex or Wis for melee combat. Give them something along the line's of the Factotum's Cunning Insight and Brains over Brawn. Do something, please.
I'm not sure how you're calling that a "minor investment" in AC-- you exceeded WBL threefold there.
MAD is a massive problem for any class, and since you're already homebrewing, there really isn't an excuse not to do something about it. Let them use Dex or Wis for melee combat. Give them something along the line's of the Factotum's Cunning Insight and Brains over Brawn. Do something, please.
I was looking at my E10 WBL Table, which by the time you have 10 levels of Monk, you have ~126-145K to work with. Two thirds of that expenditure was in the Bracers of Armor, simply drop those to +4 and you are looking ~80k for AC~36, and that doesn't even factor in the other couple of points of ability increase. Hitting the 30s is relatively easy without even a large expenditure in wealth.
My point was, how is he spending that much and boosting other martials into the 60s and 70s? That is my point.
Part of the MAD imbalances are addressed in my Overhaul, ie Point Buy, Ability Increases, etc are meant to alleviate some of the problems created by MAD/SAD.
No where have I ever said these classes will be perfect, they are meant to take the core classes, and make them playable within a new framework. IMO if every class was SAD, the game would be boring as hell. With my overhaul, even Casters become DAD requiring Constitution. I acknowledge, that with the class alone it doesn't fix everything, but this isn't the only place some of these issues are being addressed.
Over the Core Monk it gains by level 10 +3 AC, Wis to Init, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, +2 Enhancement Bonus to Unarmed Strike, Improved Unarmed Damage, another bonus feat, a better bonus feat list, a small bonus to physical Skills, another attack with Flurry of Blows, the ability to use Flurry of Blows as a Standard and Charge action, No aging Penalties, and immunity to Supernatural diseases. I may have forgot something, but I think that is it.
I was looking to bump the Monk up one Tier to Tier4, I think I did that.
1. The Monk can do a number of things ok, but specializing in dealing damage is not one of them. Monks are good Caster Killers, they have the mobility and ability to get to Casters despite alot of Battlefield control. They have great saves, and are rarely incapacitated. They may not excel at dealing damage, that does not mean you can't make them deal damage.
2. I just looked at Monsters in the appropriate CR range, that was three of them and very common ones at that.
3. Or, there will be more of the lower CR threats. We've already established the Barbarian is better at killing things. The Barbarian is also terrible at many things the Monk is at least passable at.
4. There is alot that changes at the higher levels, simply taking intuitive attack nets Wisdom to Hit instead of Strength, and quickly helps some of the issues.
Basically, the Monk is not a Damage machine, its a Mobile combatant capable of holding its own, he is not capable of doing as much damage as a Barbarian, especially at lower levels. The Monk also has the best saves in the game with a decent Dex, Con, and Wis making him have the best average saves in the game. Where the Barbarian will be Will Save or Suck, the Monk will still be mobile.
Math issues, the odds of rolling Max Damage with a Greatsword....1/10 for a 19 or 20, 3/4 for a 6+ confirmation, 1/36 chance or rolling max damage on 2d6 and 1/36 of rolling Max Damage on the Critical Damage .... is ~1/17280. A bit of a difference than 1/250.
Monk is Tier 6? Are you high? The Core Monk is Tier 5? I didn't make it worse... You think this monk is just as good as a Base Warrior or Commoner? Wow...
I said warrior is better at dealing damage, not that it is overall better. And I never mentioned commoner at all. You're making stuff up.
For the math. Sorry, I was using A. a greataxe and B. the houserule that you just multiply damage rolled. I frequently forget that isn't a houserule.
As for AC, let's see. For the same GP as your monk, I can get +5 Mithral Plate, a +5 Mithral Tower Shield, a +4 RoP, a +4 AoP, +2 Dex Gloves, a +1 Parrying Weapon, and just about enough to get a +3 Cloak of Resistance. So now with my +4 to Saves from Parrying and the Cloak I have better saves then that Monk, too. And I have a magic weapon, to boot. Assuming I fill out my Max Dex, which I can do fairly easy because I am not as MAD, that's 45 right there. I'm actually not sure how to get it to the 60s in your system because I'm not sure how PrCs work in your E10 variant. I've had ACs in the 60s by level 10 with characters before, but never without PrCing.
As for the Tier thing? *Shrug* I think warrior is no better than CW Samurai in combat since enemy AC scales faster than the monks attack bonus. Other 3/4 BAB classes have spells or some other ability to increase accuracy as well as fairly cheap ways to get GMW. Monk doesn't, which I think makes it broken like Oblivion's level scaling. Also, one goblin is not a CR appropriate encounter for a level 1 party. I was using CR one monsters, whose AC hovers around 15.
Anyway, I was interested in this project but I'm not going to give suggestions if you're going to be condescending jack-ass. All my 'attacks' were directed to the monk class itself, it's childish to take them personally. Saying I think you haven't raised the monks tier is not an attack on you, so chill.
@SowZ: I'd have to go through the actual math, but my comment on it was made from cashual glancing, the numbers just looked wrong :smallwink:.
@Zman: And the monk is better at this then the barbarian how exactly? Leaving aside things like Fly which still nullify them both rather handily there's not much to choose between them. Currently because you've retained the existing DC system for spells a fairly modest ability modifier and a cloak of resistance will make passing any save even with a weak save modifier pretty easy, never mind that a barb is likely to have a higher dex modifier than a monk due to lack of MAD'ing and he has a will save bonus while raging to help out there, not to mention his DR cutting back his damage intake. he only thing the monk can claim is a slight speed increase.
The same factor that leaves the to hit difference understated at low levels also leaves the save difference understated too so there's issues there.
The fact that orc are common enemies also doesn't change the facts. They're still below average on defences for their CR. and being humanoids a DM can tailor them more than a little with equipment modifications.
I don't see intuitive attack attack on the class features list, care to highlight it for me.
Your AC is wrong, the monks belt adds nothing to a monks AC. Which cuts you down to size rather handily. I can't speak for the 60-70 claim, but a suit of +5 mithril Chain is a hell of a lot lower than your bracer's. can afford to increase the ring and amulet from +3 to +4 and still have 9,900 GP left over. That's already a 3 point increase over what the monk gives before you factor the difference between wis+dex and pure dex in, and with no wis item needed you've got even more gold back, (and a stat boost from level to the dex modifier to boot available). That's a lot of play room to work with. Never mind a proper heavy duty tank would probably sacrifice the wis item to increase the amulet and ring and bring a +5 shield too.
@SowZ: I'd have to go through the actual math, but my comment on it was made from cashual glancing, the numbers just looked wrong :smallwink:.
@Zman: And the monk is better at this then the barbarian how exactly? Leaving aside things like Fly which still nullify them both rather handily there's not much to choose between them. Currently because you've retained the existing DC system for spells a fairly modest ability modifier and a cloak of resistance will make passing any save even with a weak save modifier pretty easy, never mind that a barb is likely to have a higher dex modifier than a monk due to lack of MAD'ing and he has a will save bonus while raging to help out there, not to mention his DR cutting back his damage intake. he only thing the monk can claim is a slight speed increase.
The same factor that leaves the to hit difference understated at low levels also leaves the save difference understated too so there's issues there.
The fact that orc are common enemies also doesn't change the facts. They're still below average on defences for their CR. and being humanoids a DM can tailor them more than a little with equipment modifications.
I don't see intuitive attack attack on the class features list, care to highlight it for me.
Your AC is wrong, the monks belt adds nothing to a monks AC. Which cuts you down to size rather handily. I can't speak for the 60-70 claim, but a suit of +5 mithril Chain is a hell of a lot lower than your bracer's. can afford to increase the ring and amulet from +3 to +4 and still have 9,900 GP left over. That's already a 3 point increase over what the monk gives before you factor the difference between wis+dex and pure dex in, and with no wis item needed you've got even more gold back, (and a stat boost from level to the dex modifier to boot available). That's a lot of play room to work with. Never mind a proper heavy duty tank would probably sacrifice the wis item to increase the amulet and ring and bring a +5 shield too.
The 60-70 AC requires stacking multiple X Stat to AC abilities and PrCs, which I don't know how to do in this E10 game. It still took easy optimization to outclass the Monks AC with less coin spent.
Anyways, my math was wrong in that I didn't roll damage again on crit, but used the houserule where you just double the damage rolled. I forget that isn't standard.
Thought the 60-70 might be something like that tbh, Duellist?
Thought the 60-70 might be something like that tbh, Duellist?
Could be one way. In the high AC builds, though, Monk is often a decent one level dip. But, as has been pointed out, it is unnecessary. A Monk's Belt is just as good and if you want Int to AC, the Kung Fu Genius ability specifically mentions that you can take it without any Monk levels. An item that replicates one of your classes best features is a notch against the class, really.
I said warrior is better at dealing damage, not that it is overall better. And I never mentioned commoner at all. You're making stuff up.
You called the Monk Tier 6. Which demonstrates you have a lack of understanding of the Teir System as Commoners and Warriors are Tier 6. The Monk is already Teir 5. The Warrior, with a very specific feat progression ie ubercharger can deal more damage, sure. But, think outside the Optimization bubble for a bit.
For the math. Sorry, I was using A. a greataxe and B. the houserule that you just multiply damage rolled. I frequently forget that isn't a houserule.
Yep, that would be a houserule, and you were specifiying greatsword in your example.
As for AC, let's see. For the same GP as your monk, I can get +5 Mithral Plate, a +5 Mithral Tower Shield, a +4 RoP, a +4 AoP, +2 Dex Gloves, a +1 Parrying Weapon, and just about enough to get a +3 Cloak of Resistance. So now with my +4 to Saves from Parrying and the Cloak I have better saves then that Monk, too. And I have a magic weapon, to boot. Assuming I fill out my Max Dex, which I can do fairly easy because I am not as MAD, that's 45 right there. I'm actually not sure how to get it to the 60s in your system because I'm not sure how PrCs work in your E10 variant. I've had ACs in the 60s by level 10 with characters before, but never without PrCing.
Yep, mild AC optimization and you sacrificed your offensive power to do it. Now, do it easily without sacrificing the Barbarian's damage advantage. And how many Barbarians would run around with a Tower Shield and a +1 weapon instead of the biggest and best Falschion they can get their hands on? Its doable for AC optimization, but youve confused that with easy. You still don't have better saves than the Monk, especially in Will. -1 +3 +3 +2 is 7 Raging. Monk gets that Base before his High Wisdom, and an additional +2 vs Enchantment without spending a pitance on a Cloak of Resistance. If it requires dedicated Optimization and multiple PRCs, its not easily available, difference of opinion between the two of us. I also used a very sub par way of doing it, the Bracers of Armor, I was not Optimizing AC, I was using commonly available choices. The monk also has +2 Magic Weapons as well. Is the Barbarian really choosing Boosting Dex over Boosting Str? Highly doubt it. You presented a possible, but highly unlikely build.
Show me how other meleer are maintaining a high damage output and easily breaking the 40s for AC at lvl10. Now do it Mono Build with some very easy and readily available items. Monk can do that.
As for the Tier thing? *Shrug* I think warrior is no better than CW Samurai in combat since enemy AC scales faster than the monks attack bonus. Other 3/4 BAB classes have spells or some other ability to increase accuracy as well as fairly cheap ways to get GMW. Monk doesn't, which I think makes it broken like Oblivion's level scaling. Also, one goblin is not a CR appropriate encounter for a level 1 party. I was using CR one monsters, whose AC hovers around 15.
Oblivinion was terrible. ACs don't scale as fast as to hit. You were using a CR opponent for the entire party, I was using CR threats that would make up an encounter of that level.
Anyway, I was interested in this project but I'm not going to give suggestions if you're going to be condescending jack-ass. All my 'attacks' were directed to the monk class itself, it's childish to take them personally. Saying I think you haven't raised the monks tier is not an attack on you, so chill.
I honestly think you were being a condescending ass first, so I returned in kind. I'm looking at bringing the class up a Tier, I believe I have done that. You obviously don't even agree with the tier system if you think the Core Monk is Tier 6 with the Commoner and Warrior.
@SowZ: I'd have to go through the actual math, but my comment on it was made from cashual glancing, the numbers just looked wrong :smallwink:.
@Zman: And the monk is better at this then the barbarian how exactly? Leaving aside things like Fly which still nullify them both rather handily there's not much to choose between them. Currently because you've retained the existing DC system for spells a fairly modest ability modifier and a cloak of resistance will make passing any save even with a weak save modifier pretty easy, never mind that a barb is likely to have a higher dex modifier than a monk due to lack of MAD'ing and he has a will save bonus while raging to help out there, not to mention his DR cutting back his damage intake. he only thing the monk can claim is a slight speed increase.
I've never said the Monk is better than the barbarian. He is more mobile,and can fufill some roles, but he will not compete with the Barbarian in damage. In his example the Barbarian and the Monk have the same Dex. If the Barbarian is increasing Dex, he isn't worried abou this Damage. Ahh, but the Monk's Belt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks) does boost Monk AC progression.
The same factor that leaves the to hit difference understated at low levels also leaves the save difference understated too so there's issues there.
The fact that orc are common enemies also doesn't change the facts. They're still below average on defences for their CR. and being humanoids a DM can tailor them more than a little with equipment modifications.
Their defenses are a little low, but their damage is high. Its close enough.
I don't see intuitive attack attack on the class features list, care to highlight it for me.
Intuitive Attack is available as a bonus feat and any Monk that is going to engage in Melee will be using it.
Your AC is wrong, the monks belt adds nothing to a monks AC. Which cuts you down to size rather handily. I can't speak for the 60-70 claim, but a suit of +5 mithril Chain is a hell of a lot lower than your bracer's. can afford to increase the ring and amulet from +3 to +4 and still have 9,900 GP left over. That's already a 3 point increase over what the monk gives before you factor the difference between wis+dex and pure dex in, and with no wis item needed you've got even more gold back, (and a stat boost from level to the dex modifier to boot available). That's a lot of play room to work with. Never mind a proper heavy duty tank would probably sacrifice the wis item to increase the amulet and ring and bring a +5 shield too.
Yep, I used sub optimal choices to get his AC to 40, I wasn't pushing optimization very far at all, no need to.
Yep, I used sub optimal choices to get his AC to 40, I wasn't pushing optimization very far at all, no need to.
Me saying one wrong thing doesn't invalidate my arguments. I think you've also demonstrated a lack of understanding of the tier system by suggesting that fairly small and superficial changes bump a class up a whole tier. But it's your arguments I care about, not your knowledge level.
It's silly to say I sacrificed offense to get my AC up. So did you. The Monk's Belt isn't the only offensive item you should get without that much gold.
You've yet to demonstrate what this monk is supposed to do. He isn't a good mage fighter because he lacks any of the utility to deal with the most basic spells. To make him a good mage killer, he'd need a better way to close range then running fast, a way to one shot him when you get in range because otherwise that wizard aint sticking around, a flight method, etc. etc
He is awful at tanking and direct fighting, he isn't particularly sneaky or skill monkey, he isn't social, he doesn't have spellcasting... What's he suposed to do?
In my adventurers guild, Monk McGee has, at best, a job as a part-timer to fill in when someone calls in sick. For killing things in melee? Grunk the Barb. is my guy. Seven or eight classes come in line before Monk McGee for second place including Warrior. It doesn't need to be an ubercharger build, either. A basic, high Strength Greatsword wielder with Power Attack out damages Monk with the same accuracy.
For all my tanking needs? Frank the Fighter is my guy. The paladin, Barb, duskblade, and cleric all come well before Monk McGee. Sneaky jobs? Rogue is first, obviously, then Bard, then Ranger or Druid. Monk McGee could be next depending on his build, but it is just as likely to be a sorcerer or warlock.
Social crap? Bard first. Probably sorcerer next. Even rogue comes above the monk with less MAD and more SP. Scouting? Ranger first, then probably Druid, then rogue. After that, McGee may be best. But anyone with flight or teleportation or invisibility or disguise spells is going to be better most the time.
Mage killing? All manner of spellcasters come before Monk McGee. Rogues have a better shot at sneaking behind them and ganking then Monk does at leaping over the battle lines and ineffectually punching him. A ranger with a bow has better odds, too, because it is harder to leave out of range. Monk McGee has a slight edge over most Fighters here, but a Barbarian could easily take tireless and Steadfast Determination and not wear armor that slows him down and be significantly better then the Monk at this job. Monk has good saves and runs fast. This does not a mage killer make.
Skillmonkey? Rogue is best here, usually, unless you are playing with a few more obscure classes. In core, Bard comes next. Clerics can easily come third with spells that boost skills, and the wizard will very often invalidate the skillmonkey. But your Monk sits somewhere in the middle of the barrel here, I suppose.
What other party roles are there? Cause I'm willing to bet the Monk can't pull it off. If CW Samurai is high Tier Six, monk is low Tier Five. He just fails at everything he tries other than having good saves. The good save thing, though, isn't as big of a deal in Gestalt, either. You'll likely get all good saves anyway. You could also argue low BAB isn't as bad in gestlat, which is kind of true, but the Fighter and Ranger and Paladin and Barbarian call all gestalt with full casters if they want, (shorring up bad will saves,) but the Monk is stuck with either Paladin or Fighter or Ranger or a few non cores.
I honestly think you were being a condescending ass first, so I returned in kind.
Where was I being condescending? I never once insulted you, or said anything demeaning to your intelligence. I railed hard on the monk, and tried to establish why I didn't think your fix worked. If you can't handle that without lashing out, you shouldn't post stuff on a public forum for public critique. If I had just written off your idea without a thorough explanation, that would be dismissive and condescending.
Well, you just insulted my intelligence in your last post. How could I take your understanding of the Tier system seriously if you though the Monk was Tier 6.
Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.
Here is what my E10 Monk has over the Tier 5 Core Monk.
+3 AC
Wisdom to Initiative
Uncanny dodge
Improved Uncanny Dodge
+2 Enhancement bonus to unarmed Strike
Improved Unarmed Strike Damage
Bonus feat
Improved bonus feat list
More Skill Points
Small Bonus to physical skills and break items
Immunity to Supernatural Diseases
No aging penalties
An additional Flurry attack
The ability to Flurry as Standard and Charge actions
Effective Ranged options
That is not an insignificant list of improvements.
Now a monk can be an effective mobile combatant, can engage enemies effectively at range, has enough skills to be a passable skill monkey, can step into the front lines when needed, can Mage hunt, effectively can fufill all of those role when needed.
You say a Warrior with a Greatsword and Power Attack deals better Damage. Let's look at this sans equipment and finished builds as both will greatly complicate and alter the scenario. Both classes have ample opportunity for improvement through these methods..
Level 10 Warrior with a base 16 Str, 14 Dex, and 14 Con Pumping Str. Makes 18/14/14, and 64HP. As a human he has 26 Skill Points with 8 Int.
He can attack without PA for +14/10/6 for 2d6+6 Damage on a Full attack and can charge for a +16 for 2d6+6 Damage. Sure, but any PA is seriously limiting his ability to hit.
That is a single +14 for 2d6+10 Damage on the charge. Vs AC24 deals 8.5 Damage on Average
A 14/14/14/16 Monk who Pumped Wis has 64HP, 72 Skill Points with 8 Int. With only Intuitive Attack.
He has a +12/12/12/8 for 2d6+4 Damage on a full attack and can charge for +14/14/14 for 2d6+4 Damage.
... Or 16.5 Damage on Average on the Charge, just shy of twice the Warrior's Average Damage on the Charge.
The Monk deals more Damage vs a wide array of AC ranges. Obviously, no gp was spent and the builds are incomplete, but, the Warrior is going to have to put in serious investment into improving his attack. End result, the monk will be able to be reliably mobile! fufill many different roles simultaneously, have greater and more reliable defenses against a variety of attacks, and outshine a Tier 6 Warrior at what the Warrior does best.
You also fail to mention the offered ACF which creates a more martial Monk, Full BAB, D10, and improved Damage which blows the Warrior out of the Water.
Looks like exactly what is needed to fufill the Tier 4 Criteria.
I'm am getting sick of your heavy handed gross exaggerations and false claims. Attacking a project without effective and constructive criticism is that, an attack. Now, please, provide some useful feedback.
You've mentioned it before, this E10 is meant to work with gestalt classes offering many different ways to plug the gaps, so far we've been focusing on simple comparisons.
Well, you just insulted my intelligence in your last post. How could I take your understanding of the Tier system seriously if you though the Monk was Tier 6.
Here is what my E10 Monk has over the Tier 5 Core Monk.
+3 AC
Wisdom to Initiative
Uncanny dodge
Improved Uncanny Dodge
+2 Enhancement bonus to unarmed Strike
Improved Unarmed Strike Damage
Bonus feat
Improved bonus feat list
More Skill Points
Small Bonus to physical skills and break items
Immunity to Supernatural Diseases
No aging penalties
An additional Flurry attack
The ability to Flurry as Standard and Charge actions
Effective Ranged options
That is not an insignificant list of improvements.
Now a monk can be an effective mobile combatant, can engage enemies effectively at range, has enough skills to be a passable skill monkey, can step into the front lines when needed, can Mage hunt, effectively can fufill all of those role when needed.
You say a Warrior with a Greatsword and Power Attack deals better Damage. Let's look at this sans equipment and finished builds as both will greatly complicate and alter the scenario. Both classes have ample opportunity for improvement through these methods..
Level 10 Warrior with a base 16 Str, 14 Dex, and 14 Con Pumping Str. Makes 18/14/14, and 64HP. As a human he has 26 Skill Points with 8 Int.
He can attack without PA for +14/10/6 for 2d6+6 Damage on a Full attack and can charge for a +16 for 2d6+6 Damage. Sure, but any PA is seriously limiting his ability to hit.
That is a single +14 for 2d6+10 Damage on the charge. Vs AC24 deals 8.5 Damage on Average
A 14/14/14/16 Monk who Pumped Wis has 64HP, 72 Skill Points with 8 Int. With only Intuitive Attack.
He has a +12/12/12/8 for 2d6+4 Damage on a full attack and can charge for +14/14/14 for 2d6+4 Damage.
... Or 16.5 Damage on Average on the Charge, just shy of twice the Warrior's Average Damage on the Charge.
The Monk deals more Damage vs a wide array of AC ranges. Obviously, no gp was spent and the builds are incomplete, but, the Warrior is going to have to put in serious investment into improving his attack. End result, the monk will be able to be reliably mobile! fufill many different roles simultaneously, have greater and more reliable defenses against a variety of attacks, and outshine a Tier 6 Warrior at what the Warrior does best.
You also fail to mention the offered ACF which creates a more martial Monk, Full BAB, D10, and improved Damage which blows the Warrior out of the Water.
Looks like exactly what is needed to fufill the Tier 4 Criteria.
I'm am getting sick of your heavy handed gross exaggerations and false claims. Attacking a project without effective and constructive criticism is that, an attack. Now, please, provide some useful feedback.
You've mentioned it before, this E10 is meant to work with gestalt classes offering many different ways to plug the gaps, so far we've been focusing on simple comparisons.
I never insulted you. Not once, unless you count me calling you out on being childish which was only in response to a totally unprovoked, aggressive post. I think you're stance that monks are excellent Mage killers and have great AC just as ridiculous as you find my forgetful placing of them in tier six. But I didn't jump right to that and say, "are you high oh so enlightened genius?" I, unsarcastically and without any name calling, gave arguments as to why I disagree.
I've done nothing but offer sincere criticism. I thought it was a neat idea and wanted to help improve it. You'd rather write off anyone who has a strong disagreement as someone who isn't giving sincere feedback in order to protect your ego.
Fine, I'm gone. My last price of advise is to engage people who think your system doesn't work yet like a grown up. Otherwise, it will be far, far from as good as it can be. See ya.
I never insulted you. Not once, unless you count me calling you out on being childish which was only in response to a totally unprovoked, aggressive post. I think you're stance that monks are excellent Mage killers and have great AC just as ridiculous as you find my forgetful placing of them in tier six. But I didn't jump right to that and say, "are you high oh so enlightened genius?" I, unsarcastically and without any name calling, gave arguments as to why I disagree.
I've done nothing but offer sincere criticism. I thought it was a neat idea and wanted to help improve it. You'd rather write off anyone who has a strong disagreement as someone who isn't giving sincere feedback in order to protect your ego.
Fine, I'm gone. My last price of advise is to engage people who think your system doesn't work yet like a grown up. Otherwise, it will be far, far from as good as it can be. See ya.
I cant say I'm sad to see you go.
You called the core Monk Tier 6, I asked if you were high as it was ridiculous. And it took multiple responses to even acknowledge a mistake.
You called me a condescending jackass for giving your ridiculous and condescending arguments and claims a bit of snark. You escalated the name calling, not I.
You still have failed to demonstrate how you can easily hit AC in the 60s and 70s, or even easy forties without compromising and contradicting yourself and your build. Nor did you address I had an ACF from the start, which effectively was everything you were saying was required. You used incorrect math, yet declare your actions as "precise". You are arrogant and frequently use gross over exaggerations aimed at insulting others while stroking your ego. Then, you insult me, and tell me to grow up. Pot, kettle, black.
Your advice, is merely a written exercise for you to demonstrate your self determined superior intelligence. Condescending criticism does not equal constructive criticism.
It's sad, with a bit of maturity and social skills you'd offer constructive advice and could become helpful.
See ya.
I cant say I'm sad to see you go.
You called the core Monk Tier 6, I asked if you were high as it was ridiculous. And it took multiple responses to even acknowledge a mistake.
You called me a condescending jackass for giving your ridiculous and condescending arguments and claims a bit of snark. You escalated the name calling, not I.
You still have failed to demonstrate how you can easily hit AC in the 60s and 70s, or even easy forties without compromising and contradicting yourself and your build. Nor did you address I had an ACF from the start, which effectively was everything you were saying was required. You used incorrect math, yet declare your actions as "precise". You are arrogant and frequently use gross over exaggerations aimed at insulting others while stroking your ego. Then, you insult me, and tell me to grow up. Pot, kettle, black.
Your advice, is merely a written exercise for you to demonstrate your self determined superior intelligence. Condescending criticism does not equal constructive criticism.
It's sad, with a bit of maturity and social skills you'd offer constructive advice and could become helpful.
See ya.
While my initial advice was constructive, you're right that I escalated things, too. Sorry about that.
While my initial advice was constructive, you're right that I escalated things, too. Sorry about that.
We both did. I have the feeling we are more similar than different. I am sorry, I could have handled it better.
I truly appreciate the effort and time you have put into my project even if I don't always agree with your points.
Truce?
We both did. I have the feeling we are more similar than different. I am sorry, I could have handled it better.
I truly appreciate the effort and time you have put into my project even if I don't always agree with your points.
Truce?
Sure. Sorry, I've had a pretty stressful holiday season. I've been kind of snappy.
Sure. Sorry, I've had a pretty stressful holiday season. I've been kind of snappy.
That makes two of us. I thoroughly dislike the Holidays. And I've got quite a bit of work stress entering the first busy season for my business.
I would appreciate your opinion and what is missing to reach Tier 4.
In my opinion, effective Ranged Options, Flurry as a Standard and Charge, and more Skill Points is all that was required to make the bump.
That makes two of us. I thoroughly dislike the Holidays. And I've got quite a bit of work stress entering the first busy season for my business.
I would appreciate your opinion and what is missing to reach Tier 4.
In my opinion, effective Ranged Options, Flurry as a Standard and Charge, and more Skill Points is all that was required to make the bump.
Thanks. What the monk needs, I think, is special abilities. Similar to rogue special abilities. A list of fifteen or so cool things about as powerful as a second level spell or so, maybe with per encounter limits. Stuff that shores up the weaknesses. If that's too ToB for you, some super burst of speed that is fluffed as a really fast sprinting leap but effectively gives flight for a couple rounds at double movement speed. That helps them be better caster fighters. Something to reduce the MAD. Either add Wis to melee damage or else Wis to HP or both. Something to increase accuracy. I still think Full BAB is a must and not just as an ACF or maybe no penalty to taking flurry of blows. The penalty just makes the attack very in accurate. Finally, Spell Resistance would help them fill the supposed role of caster fighters with something that other casters couldn't easily trump.
Grod_The_Giant
2014-01-03, 12:15 AM
I would appreciate your opinion and what is missing to reach Tier 4.
If I may step in...
You're probably in Tier 4, but in what I tend to think of as the crappy part of Tier 4-- you can do a couple different things with mediocre competence. Like the Ranger (before Swift Hunter and splatbook spells) or the Marshal. You can do melee or archery... to an extent. You can do scout... decently. You've got... passable mobility. You're spell-resistant... sort of.
You've stated that you want him to be a mobile, anti-caster class; here are a few ideas on things you can do to emphasize that:
Give him back his spell resistance.
Allow some saving throw rerolls.
Crank up the fast movement and Ascetic Athleticism.
Give him some wire-fu type mobility abilities-- running on walls, jumping huge distances, balancing on wires.
Offer some means of penetrating concealment and illusions. (Fits pretty well with an enlightened shao-lin type, methinks)
If I may step in...
You're probably in Tier 4, but in what I tend to think of as the crappy part of Tier 4-- you can do a couple different things with mediocre competence. Like the Ranger (before Swift Hunter and splatbook spells) or the Marshal. You can do melee or archery... to an extent. You can do scout... decently. You've got... passable mobility. You're spell-resistant... sort of.
You've stated that you want him to be a mobile, anti-caster class; here are a few ideas on things you can do to emphasize that:
Give him back his spell resistance.
Allow some saving throw rerolls.
Crank up the fast movement and Ascetic Athleticism.
Give him some wire-fu type mobility abilities-- running on walls, jumping huge distances, balancing on wires.
Offer some means of penetrating concealment and illusions. (Fits pretty well with an enlightened shao-lin type, methinks)
Maybe X times per day True Seeing at high levels? Fits monk thematically and gives him a neat niche. As a fifth level spell he will be alone in having it. All these changes could push him to low tier three.
Thanks SowZ and Grod.
I made a couple of changes detailed in the Change Log.
I know they aren't quite what you are looking for, but I'll try to address some of those points. My goal is to be a solid Teir 4, not try and push the Monk into Teir 3.
ToB, I am not a fan of Tome of Battle. Just giving Melee Spells when the problem was spells never sat right to me. IMO, they aren't read Teir 3 classes, but Overpowered Teir 4s.
Hmm... some kind of ability similar to the spell Swift Fly. That could be workable.
Aescetic Athleticism, I don't want to make the bonus too high, as It affects Hide and Move Silently. A +10 bonus to each of those skills is extremely potent, I'd use full Monk level if it wasn't for those two skills. I did add quite a bit of Combat Maneuver Support, which should allow the Monk to use those special attacks with proficiency, at least not be terrible due to penalties. And, he has three Feats to pick up the Improved Version if he wants to go that route. Also, with my E10, the characters get many more feats to work with.
Giving the Monk Full BaB. That can be achieved through an ACF, or by Gestalting a Full BAB class. +7/7/7/3 is not terrible compared to +10/6/2. Actually, all average out to a base +6 with the Monk having more attacks. On a Standard or Charge the Monk is doing quite well.
MAD/SAD Balance. Giving him Wis to Damage or Wis to HP... I understand how much less MAD a Monk would be, IMO he'd become effectively SAD, but have other parts of my Overhaul meant to address the MAD/SAD issue. Point buy penalizes SAD arrays, level dependent ability increases.... at 4th, 12th, and 20th you can improve one of your top three abilities by +1 or one of your lowest three by +2. At 8th and 16th, all of your abilities increase by +1.
I also allowed Still Mind to affect Illusions.
Thanks SowZ and Grod.
I made a couple of changes detailed in the Change Log.
I know they aren't quite what you are looking for, but I'll try to address some of those points. My goal is to be a solid Teir 4, not try and push the Monk into Teir 3.
ToB, I am not a fan of Tome of Battle. Just giving Melee Spells when the problem was spells never sat right to me. IMO, they aren't read Teir 3 classes, but Overpowered Teir 4s.
Hmm... some kind of ability similar to the spell Swift Fly. That could be workable.
Aescetic Athleticism, I don't want to make the bonus too high, as It affects Hide and Move Silently. A +10 bonus to each of those skills is extremely potent, I'd use full Monk level if it wasn't for those two skills. I did add quite a bit of Combat Maneuver Support, which should allow the Monk to use those special attacks with proficiency, at least not be terrible due to penalties. And, he has three Feats to pick up the Improved Version if he wants to go that route. Also, with my E10, the characters get many more feats to work with.
Giving the Monk Full BaB. That can be achieved through an ACF, or by Gestalting a Full BAB class. +7/7/7/3 is not terrible compared to +10/6/2. Actually, all average out to a base +6 with the Monk having more attacks. On a Standard or Charge the Monk is doing quite well.
MAD/SAD Balance. Giving him Wis to Damage or Wis to HP... I understand how much less MAD a Monk would be, IMO he'd become effectively SAD, but have other parts of my Overhaul meant to address the MAD/SAD issue. Point buy penalizes SAD arrays, level dependent ability increases.... at 4th, 12th, and 20th you can improve one of your top three abilities by +1 or one of your lowest three by +2. At 8th and 16th, all of your abilities increase by +1.
I also allowed Still Mind to affect Illusions.
With Wis to damage but not HP, he'd be as MAD as the fighter, needing Dex and Con and Wis. Not SAD. Truly SAD classes aren't penalized in a PB environment. Everyone can use Dex and Con with few exceptions, especially spell asters.
Wis to damage would make him do decent damage, at least. Still half that of a bruiser, but decent.
@Zman: Ahhh i misunderstood what you where doing there with the monk belt there, i thought it was all coming from the belt and i knew it didn't give anything close to that level of AC.
Boosting the Barbarian's Dex isn't going to hurt his damage though because unlike the Monk he can ignore his Wisdom much more so they can shift the investment across, never mind manual's of course, (i think any sane DM should ban them but whatever). As i've already pointed out your current max level spell DC's are so terrible that a simple +5 cloak of resistance would allow a gehsalt that has 2 weak saves to laugh at them. Get a gehsalt that has one class have it as a strong and the other one has it as a weak save and they're irrelevant.
If it's a feat we can't assume it's presence, if you expect all monks to have it, make it a class feature. There's also an issue with this approach. Very few other classes rely on wis so heavily, so ignoring other stats like that is just going to make the other part of the gehsalt weaker. Mr Barb is using the same basic stats as most of the rest of the martial types which means the other half of his gehsalt is going to be much stronger than the other half of the monks gehsalt.
SowZ makes absolutely valid points that your AC build uses a LOT of your WBL for very little offensive punch. That is a severe issue on it's own.
Your also right that his attempt has more limited offence. But your both using 1 handed weapons here and he can focus more on dex + strength than you can whilst doing so because you need so much wisdom as well. That means even without rage he's hitting harder per attack, and if he's gehsalted with another full BAB he can take a bigger power attack penalty than you. Add in rage and he's going to be hitting significantly above the monk despite the lower weapon damage and lower number of attacks. Certainly it's a specialised build, but two weapon fighters could go with spiked heavy shields to let them switch between tank and damage and a ranger gehsalt would be perfect for this.
Not overly relevant but i'll outline one example of the extreme AC builds i've seen. assumed 32 PB with grey elf race:
STR: 12 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 16 WIS: 16 CHA: 4
9 levels of fighter, 1 of monk, 10 of duellist. Manual of dex and stat booster items where also assumed, (the items would have to be lower bonuses with your WBL but that applies to everyone so it's an even loss, i'm going with the original though here). That results in final scores, (ignoring any boosts to stat's besides wisdom, int and dex) of:
STR: 12 DEX: 29 CON: 12 INT: 22 WIS: 25 CHA: 4
So between the modifiers for wis, dex and int you've got an AC of 32. Add on Bracer's, Amulet, and Ring for another 18 and that's 50 AC already. Add in 10 levels of duellist whilst fighting defensively and that's 62 AC with a BAB of: 13/13/7/3/-2, with weapon finesse factored in that increases to: 22/22/16/12/7.
This is actually a fairly cut down example, the one i saw involved using traits to boost thing's even further, the result was something like 12/10/11 on the Dex/Int/Wis ability modifiers and a slight increase in con and strength scores. But that's a particularly extreme example of optimisation.
I'll take a look over the changes btw and let you know what i think later.
@Zman: Ahhh i misunderstood what you where doing there with the monk belt there, i thought it was all coming from the belt and i knew it didn't give anything close to that level of AC.
Boosting the Barbarian's Dex isn't going to hurt his damage though because unlike the Monk he can ignore his Wisdom much more so they can shift the investment across, never mind manual's of course, (i think any sane DM should ban them but whatever). As i've already pointed out your current max level spell DC's are so terrible that a simple +5 cloak of resistance would allow a gehsalt that has 2 weak saves to laugh at them. Get a gehsalt that has one class have it as a strong and the other one has it as a weak save and they're irrelevant.
If it's a feat we can't assume it's presence, if you expect all monks to have it, make it a class feature. There's also an issue with this approach. Very few other classes rely on wis so heavily, so ignoring other stats like that is just going to make the other part of the gehsalt weaker. Mr Barb is using the same basic stats as most of the rest of the martial types which means the other half of his gehsalt is going to be much stronger than the other half of the monks gehsalt.
SowZ makes absolutely valid points that your AC build uses a LOT of your WBL for very little offensive punch. That is a severe issue on it's own.
Your also right that his attempt has more limited offence. But your both using 1 handed weapons here and he can focus more on dex + strength than you can whilst doing so because you need so much wisdom as well. That means even without rage he's hitting harder per attack, and if he's gehsalted with another full BAB he can take a bigger power attack penalty than you. Add in rage and he's going to be hitting significantly above the monk despite the lower weapon damage and lower number of attacks. Certainly it's a specialised build, but two weapon fighters could go with spiked heavy shields to let them switch between tank and damage and a ranger gehsalt would be perfect for this.
Not overly relevant but i'll outline one example of the extreme AC builds i've seen. assumed 32 PB with grey elf race:
STR: 12 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 16 WIS: 16 CHA: 4
9 levels of fighter, 1 of monk, 10 of duellist. Manual of dex and stat booster items where also assumed, (the items would have to be lower bonuses with your WBL but that applies to everyone so it's an even loss, i'm going with the original though here). That results in final scores, (ignoring any boosts to stat's besides wisdom, int and dex) of:
STR: 12 DEX: 29 CON: 12 INT: 22 WIS: 25 CHA: 4
So between the modifiers for wis, dex and int you've got an AC of 32. Add on Bracer's, Amulet, and Ring for another 18 and that's 50 AC already. Add in 10 levels of duellist whilst fighting defensively and that's 62 AC with a BAB of: 13/13/7/3/-2, with weapon finesse factored in that increases to: 22/22/16/12/7.
This is actually a fairly cut down example, the one i saw involved using traits to boost thing's even further, the result was something like 12/10/11 on the Dex/Int/Wis ability modifiers and a slight increase in con and strength scores. But that's a particularly extreme example of optimisation.
I'll take a look over the changes btw and let you know what i think later.
You take the better BAB in gestalt, you don't add them.
Ahh, right, not too familiar with gehsalt's ;). Thanks for the correction.
With Wis to damage but not HP, he'd be as MAD as the fighter, needing Dex and Con and Wis. Not SAD. Truly SAD classes aren't penalized in a PB environment. Everyone can use Dex and Con with few exceptions, especially spell asters.
Wis to damage would make him do decent damage, at least. Still half that of a bruiser, but decent.
With Wisdom to Damage the Monk would be able to dump Str, ok Dex and Con still about as important as for a Caster, Wisdom is king. 12 Des, 12 Con would be plent, pump Wis. Dex is only a relatively small AC Bonus, Monk doesn't need it for Saves. Without Wis to HP, the Monk can't afford a Con Penalty, but doesn't need a high Con at all. The Monk can then focus on Wis without much worry, getting Wis to Hit, Wis to Damage, Wis to AC, Wis to Init, Wis to Will, the Monk is as SAD as any Noncaster gets. As Sad as Ubbercharger Barbarians that Dump AC.
@Zman: Ahhh i misunderstood what you where doing there with the monk belt there, i thought it was all coming from the belt and i knew it didn't give anything close to that level of AC.
Boosting the Barbarian's Dex isn't going to hurt his damage though because unlike the Monk he can ignore his Wisdom much more so they can shift the investment across, never mind manual's of course, (i think any sane DM should ban them but whatever). As i've already pointed out your current max level spell DC's are so terrible that a simple +5 cloak of resistance would allow a gehsalt that has 2 weak saves to laugh at them. Get a gehsalt that has one class have it as a strong and the other one has it as a weak save and they're irrelevant.
If it's a feat we can't assume it's presence, if you expect all monks to have it, make it a class feature. There's also an issue with this approach. Very few other classes rely on wis so heavily, so ignoring other stats like that is just going to make the other part of the gehsalt weaker. Mr Barb is using the same basic stats as most of the rest of the martial types which means the other half of his gehsalt is going to be much stronger than the other half of the monks gehsalt.
SowZ makes absolutely valid points that your AC build uses a LOT of your WBL for very little offensive punch. That is a severe issue on it's own.
Your also right that his attempt has more limited offence. But your both using 1 handed weapons here and he can focus more on dex + strength than you can whilst doing so because you need so much wisdom as well. That means even without rage he's hitting harder per attack, and if he's gehsalted with another full BAB he can take a bigger power attack penalty than you. Add in rage and he's going to be hitting significantly above the monk despite the lower weapon damage and lower number of attacks. Certainly it's a specialised build, but two weapon fighters could go with spiked heavy shields to let them switch between tank and damage and a ranger gehsalt would be perfect for this.
Not overly relevant but i'll outline one example of the extreme AC builds i've seen. assumed 32 PB with grey elf race:
STR: 12 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 16 WIS: 16 CHA: 4
9 levels of fighter, 1 of monk, 10 of duellist. Manual of dex and stat booster items where also assumed, (the items would have to be lower bonuses with your WBL but that applies to everyone so it's an even loss, i'm going with the original though here). That results in final scores, (ignoring any boosts to stat's besides wisdom, int and dex) of:
STR: 12 DEX: 29 CON: 12 INT: 22 WIS: 25 CHA: 4
So between the modifiers for wis, dex and int you've got an AC of 32. Add on Bracer's, Amulet, and Ring for another 18 and that's 50 AC already. Add in 10 levels of duellist whilst fighting defensively and that's 62 AC with a BAB of: 13/13/7/3/-2, with weapon finesse factored in that increases to: 22/22/16/12/7.
This is actually a fairly cut down example, the one i saw involved using traits to boost thing's even further, the result was something like 12/10/11 on the Dex/Int/Wis ability modifiers and a slight increase in con and strength scores. But that's a particularly extreme example of optimisation.
I'll take a look over the changes btw and let you know what i think later.
No worries, misunderstanding happen. Barbarians don't Boost Dex when they can boost Str, that was my point.
I agree Tomes are terrible, and the aren't used in my E10.
Max level Saves are so Terrible? 10 + 4 +4-5 +any Spell Focus yields DC18 on the low end. With having a Good Save only proving a max of +7 +Stat +Any relevant Bonuses I don't think they are trivial. About the +5 Items, I've now realized that part of what I deleted in my transition for E10 was the Item rules. The most powerful +X item you can get is +3 so no Cloaks +5. No armor +5 either, etc.
Level 10 with Poor Will save, 10 in relevnat stat, and a Cloak +3 only has a +6 Will Save, +8 for a Raging Barbarian. That means he still fails 45% of the time. Definitely not Trivial.
We were discussing Wis based Monks, you can just as easily build Dex based Monks, they won't be as optimized, but you can't preclude their possibility. That is like say just because every barbarian uses Power Attack that it should just be a class feature. Its not true, though in practice it may be a default choice.
My sample AC build was litterally rudimentary, and poorly optimized. It merely showed how easily it can be done. The Monk still had his Enhancment bonus to his Weapons, and sacrificed none of his offense, which is more than the AC build did. Bracers of Armor are terribly cost ineffective, but was a simple example.
Gestalt only gets the Best BAB, biggest PA penalty available is -10. Doing so with a one handed weapon is pointless, that invalidated the Damage potential of the Barbarian. The Barbarian was using a +5 Tower Shield, a. an item that couldn't be available, and b. required that he use a one handed weapon destroying his damage potential. My problem with the build was that it didn't work.
Your example build is not possible. At most you could get in five levels of a Prestige Class. It also uses level 20 WBL, +5 Tomes, +6 Stat Items, etc all of which aren't available in this E10. I only used 10 levels of Monk, that is it.
I know that such builds are possible, and how to make them happen, but my point was in an E10 environment like this, its not really doable, and certainly not easily, and definitely not as a straight classed character, and definitely not without access to Prestige Classes, and Stat X to Y Feat/Abilities/Etc.
Basically, that may be a valid High AC build for 20 level play with free range of material, but has no bearing in an E10 environment. That build used a specific race, got a ton of its AC from Tomes, +6 Items, and the rest from Total Defense. Basiclally, a build like that isn't possible in E10.
Ok you really need to go right out all your gehsalting rules in full instead of stating gehsalt and expecting people to know what that mean's.
I assumed that saves and BAB where stacking upto this point so that a barb paired with a rouge would be looking at 10 point save modifiers for fort and ref and 6 point modifiers for will. That even with a +3 cloak makes a huge change to save probabilities. Even so as has already been stated you can use gehsalting with another strong save type to give a barb good ref saves and the +2 bonus from raging makes will a lot less vital and only 2 points weaker than the monk. Even with only a weak will and rage that's still roughly a 50% pass rate, strong saves and especially con save's are going to hammer them. Worse still after looking through the list of low level wizard spells available on the SRD only Hold Person and Fear strike me as being huge barrier's, (ignoring the obvious fly of course), that the barbarian would have trouble dealing with. The rest either require creatures with too few HD or are fort save based, or don't allow saves. So even if we assume the save difference is going to be big enough to be a major issue all the time, most of the things their going to be facing aren't going to be an issue anyway because they don't target the barbarian's weaker save.
No you can't build a dex based monk. It's got to be either wisdom based or strength based the way you've set it up because without that the loss of strength score is going to hammer the damage per hit. A a strength based build is going to hammer the saves and AC your going on about so much.
And no a Barb isn't going to take dex over strength, but he isn't going to need to make that kind of decision anyway, now i've double checked the mithril item rules he can wear a mithril breastplate, (which is considered light armour for movement purposes), and with he only needs a dex modifier of +5, with item's that's not overly focusing. There's also going to be practical limit's without manuals to just how high he can push strength, there does come a point of diminishing returns.
Unfortunately his build does work. Ok it needs some adjustment to account for your magic item's limits but it still works. The fact that he's got a one handed weapon is irrelevant when exactly the same applies to your own monk and without wis mod to damage the barbarian will have a higher ability damage modifier. likewise unless you assume a monk MUST gehsalt with a full BAB he can still take a 3 point penalty and get the same accuracy as your monk, with rage factored in your looking at a probable 6-8 point increase per swing in damage. Certainly the gehsalt BAB does cut the number of attacks difference a lot closer so things are a lot closer. But from my PoV the fact that the Barbarian with the right gehsalt can come very dammed close in saves and still call it evens in offence whilst being only 10 ft slower. Given the Barb can full attack on the charge and has a few other useful features on top of vastly more hitpoints i don't see a huge issue with calling the barb plain better.
Don't get me wrong, throw in wis to damage and it's a different kettle of fish entirely, the monks suddenly sitting on enough extra attacks to make up the rage and BAB difference and he's going to actually be able to pull high AC without killing his strength score in the process. He's still not going to have a major save difference or mobility difference, and he's still not going to have anything like the HP's. But he's a lot closer to even.
Ok you really need to go right out all your gehsalting rules in full instead of stating gehsalt and expecting people to know what that mean's.
I assumed that saves and BAB where stacking upto this point so that a barb paired with a rouge would be looking at 10 point save modifiers for fort and ref and 6 point modifiers for will. That even with a +3 cloak makes a huge change to save probabilities. Even so as has already been stated you can use gehsalting with another strong save type to give a barb good ref saves and the +2 bonus from raging makes will a lot less vital and only 2 points weaker than the monk. Even with only a weak will and rage that's still roughly a 50% pass rate, strong saves and especially con save's are going to hammer them. Worse still after looking through the list of low level wizard spells available on the SRD only Hold Person and Fear strike me as being huge barrier's, (ignoring the obvious fly of course), that the barbarian would have trouble dealing with. The rest either require creatures with too few HD or are fort save based, or don't allow saves. So even if we assume the save difference is going to be big enough to be a major issue all the time, most of the things their going to be facing aren't going to be an issue anyway because they don't target the barbarian's weaker save.
No you can't build a dex based monk. It's got to be either wisdom based or strength based the way you've set it up because without that the loss of strength score is going to hammer the damage per hit. A a strength based build is going to hammer the saves and AC your going on about so much.
And no a Barb isn't going to take dex over strength, but he isn't going to need to make that kind of decision anyway, now i've double checked the mithril item rules he can wear a mithril breastplate, (which is considered light armour for movement purposes), and with he only needs a dex modifier of +5, with item's that's not overly focusing. There's also going to be practical limit's without manuals to just how high he can push strength, there does come a point of diminishing returns.
Unfortunately his build does work. Ok it needs some adjustment to account for your magic item's limits but it still works. The fact that he's got a one handed weapon is irrelevant when exactly the same applies to your own monk and without wis mod to damage the barbarian will have a higher ability damage modifier. likewise unless you assume a monk MUST gehsalt with a full BAB he can still take a 3 point penalty and get the same accuracy as your monk, with rage factored in your looking at a probable 6-8 point increase per swing in damage. Certainly the gehsalt BAB does cut the number of attacks difference a lot closer so things are a lot closer. But from my PoV the fact that the Barbarian with the right gehsalt can come very dammed close in saves and still call it evens in offence whilst being only 10 ft slower. Given the Barb can full attack on the charge and has a few other useful features on top of vastly more hitpoints i don't see a huge issue with calling the barb plain better.
Don't get me wrong, throw in wis to damage and it's a different kettle of fish entirely, the monks suddenly sitting on enough extra attacks to make up the rage and BAB difference and he's going to actually be able to pull high AC without killing his strength score in the process. He's still not going to have a major save difference or mobility difference, and he's still not going to have anything like the HP's. But he's a lot closer to even.
Like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16710332#post16710332)thread? Also in my Signature are the links to my Overhaul rules, the E10 Variantis also linked there too. It is also in the "My Homebrew" section.
Barb to Monk is apples to oranges. I have never ever said the Monk should out Damage a Barbarian, especially in a vaacuum, its just not going to happen.
Dex based Monk? Sure I can, and it would work really well Gestalted with Rogue and Two Weapon Fighting. Could achieve something like 6 attacks per turn with Dex to Damage and Dex to Hit. Without Gestalt, its tougher, but is doable on a Ranged Stealth Monk. May not be optimal, but this isn't all about optimization, it about playing a character and fufilling concepts.
You are talking about have at least a +3 due to BAB, that is only on the first attack, the Monk has two more at his Full, before his Iterative. Any Power Attacks makes the Barbarian a one hit/round class.
Bringing the gestalt into the equation will get complicated really fast. Great Gestalts for the Monk would be Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue. If you are choosing a Barbarian's Gestalt class for your Saves, you are missing out, the Monk chooses his Gestalt for entirely different purposes and Full BAB is on ly a minor concern. Only two of those is bringing full BAB, but the others bring enough it doesn't matter.
Cleric Brings casting and Wis Synergy, and with the boostable Melee Cleric Spells the Monk can make those differences disappear. A little DMM Divine Power and Divine Favor makes the monk a Combat Machine with the added bonus of Full BAB and an additional Iterative. The potential for this combination is crazy.
Druid brings much of what the Cleric does, less total offense power but brings alot of other useful abilities. For Damage you have the Bite of series.
Fighter brings Full BAB, a ton of Feats, Measured Strike, and a couple other useful abilities.
Ranger makes the rogue a dangerous dangerous archer, full BAB, useful spells, and more.
Rogue doesn't Bring Full BAB without the Swashbuckler ACF, but bring Sneak Attack and Special Abilities which can be huge and shore up Damage ie Dex to Damage, possibilities for Two Weapon Fighting without Penalty for even More attacks, or even the Scout ACF for Skirmish.
His AC build had problems, it sacrificed much of what the Barbarian had over the Monk, sure, maybe per hit he still dealt more damage, but he then couldn't put out the hurt at range, still doesn't have the mobility, the skills, or the saves.
I think you are looking at only damage as the balancing factor, not what the class as a whole is capable sure. Sure, with the right equipment a Barbarian can match AC with a Monk, but the Barbarian has to give up alot to do it, and he still isn't able to do everything else a Monk can do. That is the point, there is a give and a take and a balance.
Once we throw the gestalt class levels into the mix, much of the perceived deficiencies of the class can be filled, just as the Monk can fill the deficiency of the other classes.
The question isn't is one class better than the other, but are the roughly equivelant choices to be in the same game with each other. For each question we could ask
Which class deals more damage?
Which class has better defenses?
Which class has more mobility?
Which class is stealthier?
Which class is heartier?
Ect, and we will get a different answer for each, the Barbarian may easily deal more damage, but he is less versatile, and gives up alot to match certain things the Monk can do.
Like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16710332#post16710332)thread? Also in my Signature are the links to my Overhaul rules, the E10 Variantis also linked there too. It is also in the "My Homebrew" section.
Barb to Monk is apples to oranges. I have never ever said the Monk should out Damage a Barbarian, especially in a vaacuum, its just not going to happen.
Dex based Monk? Sure I can, and it would work really well Gestalted with Rogue and Two Weapon Fighting. Could achieve something like 6 attacks per turn with Dex to Damage and Dex to Hit. Without Gestalt, its tougher, but is doable on a Ranged Stealth Monk. May not be optimal, but this isn't all about optimization, it about playing a character and fufilling concepts.
You are talking about have at least a +3 due to BAB, that is only on the first attack, the Monk has two more at his Full, before his Iterative. Any Power Attacks makes the Barbarian a one hit/round class.
Bringing the gestalt into the equation will get complicated really fast. Great Gestalts for the Monk would be Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue. If you are choosing a Barbarian's Gestalt class for your Saves, you are missing out, the Monk chooses his Gestalt for entirely different purposes and Full BAB is on ly a minor concern. Only two of those is bringing full BAB, but the others bring enough it doesn't matter.
Cleric Brings casting and Wis Synergy, and with the boostable Melee Cleric Spells the Monk can make those differences disappear. A little DMM Divine Power and Divine Favor makes the monk a Combat Machine with the added bonus of Full BAB and an additional Iterative. The potential for this combination is crazy.
Druid brings much of what the Cleric does, less total offense power but brings alot of other useful abilities. For Damage you have the Bite of series.
Fighter brings Full BAB, a ton of Feats, Measured Strike, and a couple other useful abilities.
Ranger makes the rogue a dangerous dangerous archer, full BAB, useful spells, and more.
Rogue doesn't Bring Full BAB without the Swashbuckler ACF, but bring Sneak Attack and Special Abilities which can be huge and shore up Damage ie Dex to Damage, possibilities for Two Weapon Fighting without Penalty for even More attacks, or even the Scout ACF for Skirmish.
His AC build had problems, it sacrificed much of what the Barbarian had over the Monk, sure, maybe per hit he still dealt more damage, but he then couldn't put out the hurt at range, still doesn't have the mobility, the skills, or the saves.
I think you are looking at only damage as the balancing factor, not what the class as a whole is capable sure. Sure, with the right equipment a Barbarian can match AC with a Monk, but the Barbarian has to give up alot to do it, and he still isn't able to do everything else a Monk can do. That is the point, there is a give and a take and a balance.
Once we throw the gestalt class levels into the mix, much of the perceived deficiencies of the class can be filled, just as the Monk can fill the deficiency of the other classes.
The question isn't is one class better than the other, but are the roughly equivelant choices to be in the same game with each other. For each question we could ask
Which class deals more damage?
Which class has better defenses?
Which class has more mobility?
Which class is stealthier?
Which class is heartier?
Ect, and we will get a different answer for each, the Barbarian may easily deal more damage, but he is less versatile, and gives up alot to match certain things the Monk can do.
You don't have to give Monks Wis to hit, just damage. They can take weapon finesse and then need two stats high, one stat decent. Certainly not SAD, he would would be equally MAD as the fighter and a decently built ranger and far more MAD then any full caster.
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