[PF] Tier 4 gestalt

[Gnaeus]

Separating this out from the other thread to avoid confusion. I will be building a gestalt of all Tier 4 &below classes in PF (much easier than 3.5, thanks PFSRD)

Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard.

Tier 2: Oracle, Psion, Sorceror, Summoner.

Tier 3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Psychic Warrior, Wilder.

Tier 4: Barbarian, Cavalier, Monk (with ACFs), Paladin, Ranger, Samurai, Soulknife, Gunslinger, Rogue, Ninja, Adept.

Tier 5: Fighter.

Would anyone care to suggest where all the newer classes fall? I hear Vitalist is a 3, for example. I am particularly interested, obviously, in figuring out what is 4 and below.

My hypothesis is that the PF version of T4g will actually be much weaker than the 3.5 version, since it lacks its heavy magical hitters (Warlock, Warmage, and Healer). Probably high T3 or low T2. On the other hand, its alignment issues are much less, and swapping out for ACFs will be a piece of cake.

[Psyren]

Ninja is T3 imo.

You have to be careful with archetypes if you're doing this - there are monk, paladin and soulknife archetypes that get those classes to T3.

The playtest classes are worthy of consideration too - Brawler and Bloodrager are likely T4 as well.

[Gnaeus]

Ninja is T3 imo.

OK. I didn't plan on using both versions of the alternate classes anyway, so if Ninja is disputed, I'll use rogue.


You have to be careful with archetypes if you're doing this - there are monk, paladin and soulknife archetypes that get those classes to T3.

Sorry, I plan on using archetypes. On the other hand, I don't think there is all that much difference. I have heard people argue that Rogue is T3 in 3.5, or that Paladin is T3 after C Champion and SPC. If they do break T3, I think they are low enough in T3 that you can evaluate how the whole thing would be without those ACFs yourself. I'm not going to try to figure out which specific combos break that barrier, since we probably couldn't all agree on the line anyway. If it helps, I will only be using ACFs to swap out abilities that are already duplicates, to keep it as low op as possible.


The playtest classes are worthy of consideration too - Brawler and Bloodrager are likely T4 as well.

Heck no. The book I am using is the PFSRD. The only reason I plan on engaging in this again is that I can do everything I need to from there without any book diving.

[3WhiteFox3]

My opinion of the APG Psionic Classes.

Vitalist: Tier 3
Aegis: Tier 4
Dread: Tier 3
Cryptic: Tier 3
Marksman: Tier 4
Tactician: Tier 2

[Baroncognito]

What about Prestige Classes?

[Gnaeus]

Base classes only as long as we are comparing it with other base classes.

[Baroncognito]

That's a shame. There are some really fun, if pointless, abilities in the prestige classes that I assume are tier 4. (Like brightness seeker. 3/4ths BAB, no spellcasting, no animal companion progression, nothing that would really help any of the classes that you'd use to enter it, so it's really just a 5 level digression, but in a gestalt build, it could be fun)

[grarrrg]

Tier 4: ... Gunslinger

Tier 5: Fighter.

Gunslinger is generally shoved in the same Tier as Fighter. Fairly similar limits in combat, very little non-combat utility gained (they get +2 Skills/level).

Granted, in-combat effectiveness partially depends on the availability of Firearms.


What about Prestige Classes?

Prestige Classes are usually rated based on how good they are with average/optimal entry, and are more of an 'adjustment' than a straight up ranking.

[Psyren]

Sorry, I plan on using archetypes.

Uh... I didn't say not to? :smallconfused:


On the other hand, I don't think there is all that much difference. I have heard people argue that Rogue is T3 in 3.5, or that Paladin is T3 after C Champion and SPC. If they do break T3, I think they are low enough in T3 that you can evaluate how the whole thing would be without those ACFs yourself. I'm not going to try to figure out which specific combos break that barrier, since we probably couldn't all agree on the line anyway. If it helps, I will only be using ACFs to swap out abilities that are already duplicates, to keep it as low op as possible.

You still have to decide which ones to use and which not to, is all I'm saying. Using Sacred Servant Paladin or Qinggong/MOMS Monk is going to have a drastic effect on how the gestalt performs overall.


My opinion of the APG Psionic Classes.

Vitalist: Tier 3
Aegis: Tier 4
Dread: Tier 3
Cryptic: Tier 3
Marksman: Tier 4
Tactician: Tier 2

I say T4 for Dread and T3 for Marksman.

[Tanuki Tales]

Aegis is Tier 4? Pity, I really wanted to play one of those and I thought they looked decent without needing optimizing (from a cursory glance).

[Psyren]

Aegis is Tier 4? Pity, I really wanted to play one of those and I thought they looked decent without needing optimizing (from a cursory glance).

T4 isn't bad; it just means that they don't shine much outside their chosen niche. (Combat, in this case - rather like Barbs and Soulknives.)

Well, there is the other type of T4 (functional at a variety of tasks, but generally weak at all of them - e.g. rogues and warlocks) but even those can perform decently in the right type of campaign.

[3WhiteFox3]

I say T4 for Dread and T3 for Marksman.

That's probably fair, I haven't played either of those classes, and those two were the ones that I was most uncertain about. I still have my reservations, but getting a second opinion is always good.


Aegis is Tier 4? Pity, I really wanted to play one of those and I thought they looked decent without needing optimizing (from a cursory glance).

It seems pretty playable (again I haven't had the opportunity to play one), it's only tier 4 in the sense that it's main thing is combat, it's got some decent versatility built-in and it's well designed, so it's probably going to be pretty good in most games.

[Tanuki Tales]

T4 isn't bad; it just means that they don't shine much outside their chosen niche. (Combat, in this case - rather like Barbs and Soulknives.)

Well, there is the other type of T4 (functional at a variety of tasks, but generally weak at all of them - e.g. rogues and warlocks) but even those can perform decently in the right type of campaign.

I know it's not bad, I was just hoping it was closer to Tier 3 when I first heard about it.