well known cheese

[sideswipe]

ok i have been told that heighten spell/ versitile spellcaster works within the rules to gain 9th level casting at level 1 or similar such things.

and that it works with warmage, beguilers and things like that.

can someone. from the ground up. presuming nothing explain it to me.

i am an experienced player but i still cant find what some people rely on when they state it.

references to books and material would be useful but not needed if you explain clearly.

so, show me your cheese please

[DarkSonic1337]

Heighten spell with versatile caster can let you cast a spell ONE level above your normal max. Earth Spell raises the effect of heighten by one while standing on stone or unworked earth (all three would let you cast two levels above your cap). Sanctum Spell makes your spell count as one level higher while in your sanctum (so now three levels above your cap). The Illumian racial feat Improved Sigil (Krau) lets you pick a number of spells equal to the number of power sigils you have and cast them at +1 level (now four above your cap), and every time you gain a new level of spells to cast you get to re-choose the spells. Precocious Apprentice allows a first level arcane caster to cast a 2nd level spell, which you apply the above tricks to.

Extra Slot gives you a spell slot up to one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast (which remember, is 2-5 above your normal cap thanks to the above combos). Rinse and repeat with any method for replacing feats, such as the Dark Chaos Shuffle (Embrace the Dark Chaos lvl 8 Wiz spell to replace one feat with an Abyssal heritor feat, then Shun the Dark Chaos lvl 8 Wiz spell to replace an Abyssal heritor feat with any feat that you qualify for). Buy some scrolls or pay a Wizard to cast it for you. Elves make especially good candidates for the feat swapping because they explicitly get their racial weapon proficiencies as feats.

That's my understanding of it anyway. I'm sure somebody else could give you a less feat intensive method.

[Emperor Tippy]

It doesn't work however. It doesn't get you the minimum caster level required to cast spells.

[sideswipe]

ok thanks.

so im guessing you use that only with specific classes?

apparently its for people who automatically know every spell on thier list. but do you not have to be the correct level to unlock them?

[DarkSonic1337]

It doesn't work however. It doesn't get you the minimum caster level required to cast spells.

...Can't believe I missed that.

So what parts do work then? I thought Versatile Spellcaster+Heighten spell was a common trick, and the others seem to follow the same principle.

[Emperor Tippy]

...Can't believe I missed that.

So what parts do work then? I thought Versatile Spellcaster+Heighten spell was a common trick, and the others seem to follow the same principle.

It is a common trick. It also doesn't technically work.

[OldTrees1]

It doesn't work however. It doesn't get you the minimum caster level required to cast spells.

Would you direct me towards this rule quote? (I am also curious if it affects/explains Precocious Apprentice)

[Lightlawbliss]

Would you direct me towards this rule quote?...

second this request. So much annoyance would get thrown out the window if this is true.

[Emperor Tippy]

PHB page 171


You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the
caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell
in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the
same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball
to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she
can cast a fireballthat deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower
caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected
caster level, and she can’t cast fireballwith a caster level lower than
5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).

[Slipperychicken]

@OP: Please try to use proper grammar and punctuation (and capitalize the beginnings of sentences), because that will make your posts much easier to read. Placing a line break after every sentence is not advisable either.

[Darrin]

The "9th level spells at 1st level" trick involves the Elven Generalist ACF. dextercorvia explains it here (www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9). Do we not have a name for this yet? If not, how about "Bootstrap Wizard"?

The basic trick: Versatile Spellcaster gives you a 2nd level slot. Generalist Wizard gives you an extra slot of the highest level you can cast, which is now 2nd. Trade those two 2nd level slots for a 3rd level slot. Generalist wizard now gives you another 3rd level slot. Rinse and repeat until you have a 9th level spell.

The problem now is what can you cast? Well, you can Heighten a 1st level spell up to 9th. I'm not sure how you parse the minimum caster level thing with Heighten Spell. Beguiler and Warmage don't work with Generalist Wizard. Arcane Disciple and the Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium work, but getting Alacritous Cogitation, Versatile Spellcaster, and everything else you need at 1st level requires taking flaws or some other shenanigans. dextercorvia uses the domain wizard ACF from Unearthed Arcana, which gives you a domain spell known at every spell level, but many DMs ban this ACF due to balance issues.

[Chronos]

Darrin, you're forgetting that the trick also requires the Domain Wizard variant (which, technically, is not incompatible with Elven Generalist). That gives you a spell known at every level for free, so you can use your 9th (and 8th and 7th and...) slots for those spells.

Emperor Tippy, you've cited that you can't cast a spell at below its minimum possible caster level. But now, can you find a cite for what that minimum possible caster level is?

[Slipperychicken]

Emperor Tippy, you've cited that you can't cast a spell at below its minimum possible caster level. But now, can you find a cite for what that minimum possible caster level is?

I believe it's the minimum ECL at which the spell's level can be accessed by the base classes whose list it's on?

So a 1st level Sorc/Wiz spell would need CL 1, a second level spell CL 3, a third level spell CL5, and so on,

[TuggyNE]

I believe it's the minimum ECL at which the spell's level can be accessed by the base classes whose list it's on?

So a 1st level Sorc/Wiz spell would need CL 1, a second level spell CL 3, a third level spell CL5, and so on,

That's not a terrible rule of thumb (although it should be class level, not ECL), but to my knowledge it's nowhere actually stated as such, which is a bit problematic in the RAW sense.

Essentially, RAW says, "hey, you, you have to meet the minimums as outlined in section H, paragraph 42!" And then you go over and look and there is no paragraph 42 in section H to look in, because they forgot to actually write up the rules for that. So, yeah, you have to meet the minimums, but what are those?

[Codyage]

Doesn't Versatile Spellcaster only work if you can spontaneously cast spells?

[DarkSonic1337]

Doesn't Versatile Spellcaster only work if you can spontaneously cast spells?

Spontaneous Divination alternative class feature

[Codyage]

Spontaneous Divination alternative class feature

I just checked Complete Champion, and it says 5, 10, 15, or 20 for what level you can get the ACF. So from level one, you can't get Versatile Spell Caster?

[A_S]

I just checked Complete Champion, and it says 5, 10, 15, or 20 for what level you can get the ACF. So from level one, you can't get Versatile Spell Caster?
Yeah, Versatile Spellcaster won't work for a prepared caster like a Wizard unless you can shoehorn some means of spontaneous casting onto them. Spontaneous Divination is one option; Signature Spell works too. Not sure which, if any, can get online by level 1.

*edit* Oh yeah, Alacritous Cogitation is the method of choice for the Domain Generalist trick.

[Sewercop]

It doesn't work however. It doesn't get you the minimum caster level required to cast spells.

I am pretty sure there was an old thread on the wizards board that delved into TO for lowering caster level down to 1 for each spell. Maybe it was briliant gameologists. Ill see if I can dig it up. But I am almost certain it works, it just involves loads of book jumping.(I might be wrong)

[Chronos]

Quoth Slipperychicken:

I believe it's the minimum ECL at which the spell's level can be accessed by the base classes whose list it's on?
Tautological, and thus useless. One could then argue that the minimum caster level for Gate is 1, because it can be accessed by a level 1 wizard, using this trick. Basically, all the rule says is "you can't do what you can't do", which we already knew even without a rule.

[sideswipe]

So far i believe no one has come up with a definitive build that does have that power.
There have been a couple of tries but they all seem to have a flaw pointed out by someone else.
Or am i missing something?

[Slipperychicken]

Tautological, and thus useless. One could then argue that the minimum caster level for Gate is 1, because it can be accessed by a level 1 wizard, using this trick. Basically, all the rule says is "you can't do what you can't do", which we already knew even without a rule.

To be fair, we apparently need RAW to tell us basic things like "drowning people can be saved" and "dead people can't take actions".

[A_S]

So far i believe no one has come up with a definitive build that does have that power.
There have been a couple of tries but they all seem to have a flaw pointed out by someone else.
Or am i missing something?
Tippy thinks it doesn't work due to the "minimum caster level" phrasing. Others in the thread are arguing that it does work. You get to decide who's more convincing. Don't you feel special?

These kinds of RAW cheese debates are rarely "definitive."

For my money, dextercorvia's build, linked earlier, is squeaky clean.

[Chronos]

I'm usually a lot stricter than Tippy on RAW interpretation, and I think it works, too. Albeit it's a piece of RAW that I would immediately houserule, if it ever came up (for starters, even though Domain Wizard and Elven Generalist are technically compatible, they shouldn't be). Heck, I wouldn't even allow Domain Wizard to begin with, even without the combo.

[Grim Reader]

The basic trick: Versatile Spellcaster gives you a 2nd level slot. Generalist Wizard gives you an extra slot of the highest level you can cast, which is now 2nd. Trade those two 2nd level slots for a 3rd level slot. Generalist wizard now gives you another 3rd level slot. Rinse and repeat until you have a 9th level spell.

Versatile Spellcaster does not give you slots.

It consumes more slots than normal to cast a spell, but doesn't produce a slot anymore than a car engine produces gasoline.

[A_S]

Versatile Spellcaster does not give you slots.

It consumes more slots than normal to cast a spell, but doesn't produce a slot anymore than a car engine produces gasoline.
Darrin didn't quite phrase that right. Versatile Spellcaster isn't there to give spell slots, it's there to meet the "can cast" requirement for spell level n+1. The two slots are from Domain Wizard (every level you can cast) and Elven Generalist (highest level you can cast, which is the bootstrappy bit).

So, you start with level 1 spell slots, including the Elven Generalist floating slot. Because you have Versatile Spellcaster, you can use those level 1 spell slots to cast level 2 spells. Because you can cast level 2 spells, you get two bonus level 2 spell slots (one from Domain Wizard, and the Elven Generalist floating slot moves up a level). Because you have level 2 spell slots, you can use them (via Versatile Spellcaster) to cast level 3 spells. Because you can cast level 3 spells, you get bonus level 3 spell slots...

...blah blah blah.

[Grim Reader]

Darrin didn't quite phrase that right. Versatile Spellcaster isn't there to give spell slots, it's there to meet the "can cast" requirement for spell level n+1. The two slots are from Domain Wizard (every level you can cast) and Elven Generalist (highest level you can cast, which is the bootstrappy bit).

So, you start with level 1 spell slots, including the Elven Generalist floating slot. Because you have Versatile Spellcaster, you can use those level 1 spell slots to cast level 2 spells. Because you can cast level 2 spells, you get two bonus level 2 spell slots (one from Domain Wizard, and the Elven Generalist floating slot moves up a level). Because you have level 2 spell slots, you can use them (via Versatile Spellcaster) to cast level 3 spells. Because you can cast level 3 spells, you get bonus level 3 spell slots...

...blah blah blah.

Oh I see. That does work. I jumped in because there seems to be a persistent myth that Versatile Spellcaster gives you higher level spell slots.

[sideswipe]

Darrin didn't quite phrase that right. Versatile Spellcaster isn't there to give spell slots, it's there to meet the "can cast" requirement for spell level n+1. The two slots are from Domain Wizard (every level you can cast) and Elven Generalist (highest level you can cast, which is the bootstrappy bit).

So, you start with level 1 spell slots, including the Elven Generalist floating slot. Because you have Versatile Spellcaster, you can use those level 1 spell slots to cast level 2 spells. Because you can cast level 2 spells, you get two bonus level 2 spell slots (one from Domain Wizard, and the Elven Generalist floating slot moves up a level). Because you have level 2 spell slots, you can use them (via Versatile Spellcaster) to cast level 3 spells. Because you can cast level 3 spells, you get bonus level 3 spell slots...

...blah blah blah.

this seems to be the best explanation. thanks

[Gemini476]

Darrin didn't quite phrase that right. Versatile Spellcaster isn't there to give spell slots, it's there to meet the "can cast" requirement for spell level n+1. The two slots are from Domain Wizard (every level you can cast) and Elven Generalist (highest level you can cast, which is the bootstrappy bit).

So, you start with level 1 spell slots, including the Elven Generalist floating slot. Because you have Versatile Spellcaster, you can use those level 1 spell slots to cast level 2 spells. Because you can cast level 2 spells, you get two bonus level 2 spell slots (one from Domain Wizard, and the Elven Generalist floating slot moves up a level). Because you have level 2 spell slots, you can use them (via Versatile Spellcaster) to cast level 3 spells. Because you can cast level 3 spells, you get bonus level 3 spell slots...

...blah blah blah.
Doesn't Sanctum Spell get you there quicker? It'll require you to cast a spell of each level to reach the level above, admittedly, so you need to boost your CL a bit.

A Elven Generalist Domain Wizard 5/Wild Mage 1/Adept 1/ Wiz 2 with one flaw and Practiced Spellcaster has a base CL of 9. Whenever they cast a spell, Wild Mage makes that 9+1d6. Adept gets you Beads of Karma for 13+1d6. An Ioun Stone boosts that to 14+1d6.
(Feats:1:Spell Focus, 3:magical aptitude,5:metamagic school focus,6:Practiced Spellcaster, 9:Sanctum Spell)

You'll be able to cast eighth level spells at any time, Or have 4/6 chance of casting a ninth level spell.

You can do it in E6 with Wiz 4/Adept 1/Wild Mage 1, two flaws to make up for the lost bonus feat and level 9, and 5000 extra XP to get Elder Giant Magic for +3CL if you spend three rounds casting. (A DC24, DC25, and DC26 Concentration check is required for the first, second, and third turn charging, respectively.)
You need three feats to get into Wild Mage, so you could also skip Adept and take Wiz 5 for a bonus feat. But then you need to UMD the Beads of Karma.

It's not flawless, and doesn't get you nines at first level, but +16 CL is hard to get.

[Chronos]

Doesn't Sanctum Spell get you there quicker?
Quicker than first level?