Shadowcaster Gishs

[Xuldarinar]

Three simple questions, each building off of the last.


What is the best approach to making a shadowcaster gish?

What is the best approach to making a shadowcaster gish, restricted to the following books, and perhaps web supplements? Player's handbook, Monster Manual, Dungeon Master's Guide, Tome of Magic, and Drow of the Underdark.

What is the best approach to making a shadowcaster gish, with the above book restrictions and without the use of Prestige Classes?

[123456789blaaa]

This thread should help (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194315).

[peacenlove]

For the first question I have found a level of Dragonslayer (Draconomicon) to help at higher levels.
Otherwise Telflammar shadowlord is solid if you find a way to boost your lacking attack bonus.

[Fax Celestis]

Note that the flicker mystery with Telflammar Shadowlord means you can full attack as an immediate action, which is pretty cool.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm a fan of dipping ranger and going into Impure prince for 5 levels (MoE) you trade 2 CL for 5/6 mysteries advancement and full bab with some nifty class features. With some strategic dipping you could combine it a shadow pouncing chassis.

Mmmm Daelkyr Halfblood Ranger 1/Shadow Caster 4/Impure Prince 5/Tellflamar Shadow lord 4/something 6

Damn it is only 16 shadowcasting levels, is that enough to get Shadow Time?

[Piggy Knowles]

I mentioned this in the thread that Count linked, but my two favorite gish-y shadowcaster builds are...


Swordsage 2/Shadowcaster 7/Telflammar Shadowlord 5/Arcane Trickster 6
Shadowcaster 7/Ruathar 3/Sentinel of Bharrai 10


Alternatively, Monk 2/Shadowcaster 17/Soul Eater 1 with flicker, Sun School and Snap Kick can be a surprisingly decent pseudo-gish without diluting your actual shadowcaster levels much. Since you're not particularly reliant on full attacks, BAB doesn't matter nearly as much.

I've been trying to make a Dungeoncrasher/Shadowcaster who focuses on Umbral Fist to make Int-based bull rushes from afar and deal decent damage, but haven't managed to get a decent version. (In gestalt, however, it's really not bad.)

[Xuldarinar]

This thread should help (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194315).

It does help a bit, thank you.


I'm a fan of dipping ranger and going into Impure prince for 5 levels (MoE) you trade 2 CL for 5/6 mysteries advancement and full bab with some nifty class features. With some strategic dipping you could combine it a shadow pouncing chassis.

Mmmm Daelkyr Halfblood Ranger 1/Shadow Caster 4/Impure Prince 5/Tellflamar Shadow lord 4/something 6

Damn it is only 16 shadowcasting levels, is that enough to get Shadow Time?

Shadow Time is a 9th level mystery. Mystery advancement, being as fast as a wizard's, increases by 1 level at every odd numbered caster level (1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17). Regrettably, it is just 1 level short of that.


For the first question I have found a level of Dragonslayer (Draconomicon) to help at higher levels.
Otherwise Telflammar shadowlord is solid if you find a way to boost your lacking attack bonus.


Note that the flicker mystery with Telflammar Shadowlord means you can full attack as an immediate action, which is pretty cool.


I mentioned this in the thread that Count linked, but my two favorite gish-y shadowcaster builds are...


Swordsage 2/Shadowcaster 7/Telflammar Shadowlord 5/Arcane Trickster 6
Shadowcaster 7/Ruathar 3/Sentinel of Bharrai 10


Alternatively, Monk 2/Shadowcaster 17/Soul Eater 1 with flicker, Sun School and Snap Kick can be a surprisingly decent pseudo-gish without diluting your actual shadowcaster levels much. Since you're not particularly reliant on full attacks, BAB doesn't matter nearly as much.

I've been trying to make a Dungeoncrasher/Shadowcaster who focuses on Umbral Fist to make Int-based bull rushes from afar and deal decent damage, but haven't managed to get a decent version. (In gestalt, however, it's really not bad.)

Some lovely things so far. Telflammar Shadowlord seems to be a favorite for this sort of thing, and I really can see why. Both in flavor and ability it meshes fairly well.

Personally, if I had the option, I'd want a PrC that advances monk abilities and mysteries, and wrap a build around touch mysteries. I imagine such a thing could be, done correctly, be quite powerful.

Still, does anyone have any solutions for the more limited selections, or do those shut down any hope for an effective gish?

[gorfnab]

I've been trying to make a Dungeoncrasher/Shadowcaster who focuses on Umbral Fist to make Int-based bull rushes from afar and deal decent damage, but haven't managed to get a decent version. (In gestalt, however, it's really not bad.)
Here's the start of one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233539)

[Ansem]

Am I missing something or do most builds mentioned lack the 2d6 sneak attack requirement of the Shadowlord PrC?

[gorfnab]

Am I missing something or do most builds mentioned lack the 2d6 sneak attack requirement of the Shadowlord PrC?
Swordsage taken at later levels gets you access to Assassins Stance. Otherwise you can spend 2 feats to get it, Martial Study and Martial Stance.

[Piggy Knowles]

Here's the start of one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233539)

Not too shabby. Glad to see I'm not the only one with that thought.

A gestalt build I'd like to try one day is...

Warforged, Shadowcaster 20||Factotum 3/Fighter 6/Warforged Juggernaut 5/Warblade 6

Full shadowcaster goodness, plus +19 BAB, solid skills and excellent bullrushing, since it gets 2xInt+9 on its umbral fist bull rushes. (Alternatively, replace the six levels of warblade with legacy champion 6 to make it 2xInt+14, but I'd rather have 7th-level maneuvers and the excellent warblade chassis than the extra +5 on bullrushing.)


Am I missing something or do most builds mentioned lack the 2d6 sneak attack requirement of the Shadowlord PrC?

gorfnab's got it right. I tend to group my classes together when I post build stubs, since to me saying swordsage 2/shadowcaster 7 looks less confusing than swordsage 1/shadowcaster 7/swordsage +1, but you need to time out your second swordsage level to come after you've taken at least six levels in shadowcaster so that you can pick up Assassin's Stance for the sneak attack pre-req.

[Xuldarinar]

Perhaps listing options for the more restrictive questions may help.

Races
Keeping to nothing more than a +1 LA. Preferably no LA, but permitting that much expands things just a little.

Player's Handbook
Human
Dwarf
Elf
Gnome
Half-Elf
Half-Orc
Halfling

Monster Manual
Dwarf, Deep
Dwarf, Grey (+1)
Dwarf, Mountain
Elf, Aquatic
Elf, Grey
Elf, Wild
Elf, Wood
Gnome, Forest
Goblin
Halfling, Tallfellow
Halfling, Deep
Hobgoblin
Kobold
Merfolk
Orc
Planetouched: Aasimar (+1)
Planetouched: Tiefling (+1)

Dungeon Master's Guide
Gold Dwarf
Half-Human Elf

Drow of the Underdark
Vril

Tome of Magic
Dark Creature Template (+1)


Classes
Classes that maybe suitable for a gish build, some are more of a stretch than others.

Player's Handbook
Barbarian
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue

Dungeon Master's Guide
Undead Stalker
* Use Variant Spell Lists to give a class with both spells and at least average BaB mysteries at the same advancement rate instead (Bard, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger)

Drow of the Underdark
Fighter ACF: Hit and Run Tactics
Rogue ACF: Poison Use

Tome of Magic
Shadowcaster- In most cases, this automatically is going to be a part of the build.

Prestige Classes
Valid for the second question but not the third. Various ones that maybe used in a potential gish, not necessarily what is optimal however.

Dungeon Master's Guide
Arcane Trickster (Shadow Trickster Adaptation)
Assassin (Variant Spell List may be valid)
Blackguard (Variant Spell List may be valid)
Dragon Disciple (Adaptation Required)
Duelist
Dwarven Defender
Eldritch Knight (Shadow Knight Adaptation)
Horizon Walker
Shadowdancer

Drow of the Underdark
Adaptation and Retooling would benefit all of the following
Cavestalker
Dread Fang of Lolth
Eye of Lolth
Kinslayer

Tome of Magic
Acolyte of the Ego
Brimstone Speaker ("Blackflame Speaker" Adaptation.)
Shadowblade
Shadowsmith
Witch Slayer

[Zombimode]

gorfnab's got it right. I tend to group my classes together when I post build stubs, since to me saying swordsage 2/shadowcaster 7 looks less confusing than swordsage 1/shadowcaster 7/swordsage +1, but you need to time out your second swordsage level to come after you've taken at least six levels in shadowcaster so that you can pick up Assassin's Stance for the sneak attack pre-req.

Using Assassins Stance to qualify for Sneak Attack pre-req's would surely cost you in Elegance. That is, don't expect it to fly at every table.

[Zaq]

Defense is the big issue, in my mind. Aside from Flicker (which is awesome, but not something I want to rely on exclusively) and, to a lesser extent, Bolster, there aren't a ton of good defensive mysteries. (Some claim to be defensive, but not sufficiently so that I'd risk being on the front lines with them, you know?) A gish without a lot of defensive mojo is just a smear on the floor waiting to happen, since they tend to be pretty flashy (and thus prime targets), but they often have relatively low base defenses (HP/AC). That, for me, has always been the hurdle that keeps me from seriously trying to play one.

I guess you can just throw gold at the problem until it goes away (or starts to go away, at least). Plenty of generic defensive items if you look hard enough. But what actually makes sense depends so incredibly heavily on your starting level (and thus starting resources) that I don't think it'd be worth the time in a vacuum. For a real game with a defined starting level, that might be an option, but for a theoretical exercise? I don't personally have the patience for 3.5's economy anymore. (Legend has spoiled me, but damn, does 3.5's magic item system ever stink.)

[peacenlove]

Using Assassins Stance to qualify for Sneak Attack pre-req's would surely cost you in Elegance. That is, don't expect it to fly at every table.

Depends. If it is from a class feature (swordsage stance), why would be different than another class ability (rogue levels)?

[Xuldarinar]

Idea. Not exact, or optimal, but just thrown together. This doesn't take into account modifications made by the fix to the shadowcaster.

Level|Class Levels|BaB|Feat|Caster Level
1st|Shadowcaster 1|+0|Still Mystery|1st
2nd|Paladin 1|+1|-|1st
3rd|Paladin 2|+2|Dodge|1st
4th|Shadowcaster 2|+3|Extend Mystery|2nd
5th|Shadowcaster 3|+3|Path Focus (Touch of Twilight)|3rd
6th|Shadowcaster 4|+4|Blindfight|4th
7th|Shadowcaster 5|+4|-|5th
8th|Shadowcaster 6|+5|-|6th
9th|'Shadow Knight' 1|+6/+1|Shadow Cast, Shadowborn Warrior|6th
10th|'Shadow Knight' 2|+7/+2|-|7th
11th|'Shadow Knight' 3|+8/+3|-|8th
12th|'Shadow Knight' 4|+9/+4|Empowered Mystery|9th
13th|'Shadow Knight' 5|+10/+5|-|10th
14th|'Shadow Knight' 6|+11/+6/+1|-|11th
15th|'Shadow Knight' 7|+12/+7/+2|Quicken Mystery|12th
16th|'Shadow Knight' 8|+13/+8/+3|-|13th
17th|'Shadow Knight' 9|+14/+9/+4|-|14th
18th|'Shadow Knight' 10|+15/+10/+5|Shadow Reflection|15th
19th|Shadowcaster 7|+15/+10/+5|-|16th
20th|Shadowcaster 8|+16/+11/+6/+1|-|17th

'Shadow Knight', being Eldritch Knight but by making the following changes:
Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
replaced with
Mysteries: Able to cast 3rd-level mysteries.

+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
replaced with
+1 level of existing mystery-using class

One could also call the variant Mysterious Knight.

Mysteries
Level|Mystery
1st|Arrow of Dusk (Fundamental), Black Candle (Fundamental), Caul of Shadow (Fundamental), Life Fades (1st)
2nd|-
3rd|-
4th|Voice of Shadow (1st)
5th|Flesh Fails (2nd)
6th|Mystic Reflections (Fundamental), Congress of Shadows (2nd)
7th|Umbral Touch (3rd)
8th|Flicker (3rd)
9th|-
10th|Bolster (4th)
11th|Shadow Hood (Fundamental), Shadow Vision (4th)
12th|Curtain of Shadow (5th)
13th|Languor (5th)
14th|Shadow Investiture (6th)
15th|Sight Obscured (Fundamental), Unveil (6th)
16th|Ephemeral Image (7th)
17th|Grasping Shadows (7th)
18th|Umbral Body (8th)
19th|Umbral Hand (Fundamental), Menagerie of Darkness (8th)
20th|Black Labyrinth (9th), or Shadow Time (9th)

At-Will (Su): Arrow of Dusk, Black Candle, Caul of Shadow, Mystic Reflections, Shadow Hood, Sight Obscured, Umbral Hand
3/day (Su): Congress of Shadows, Flesh Fails, Flicker, Life Fades, Umbral Touch, and Voice of Shadow
2/day (Sp): Bolster, Curtain of Shadow, Languor, Shadow Investiture, Shadow Vision, and Unveil
1/day (arcane): Ephemeral Image, Prison of Night, Tomb of Night, Umbral Body, and (Black Labyrinth or Shadow Time).

[Fax Celestis]

A neat "darkness and light" gish could be a Shadowcaster into Celestial Mystic. They get some interesting passive defenses.

Shadowcasters also qualify for Harper Agent pretty easily. Shadowcaster 4/Anything with diplomacy as a class skill 1/Harper Agent 5/Harper Paragon 10 gets you 18/20 shadowcaster mysteries and +12 BAB: not the best, but interesting at least.

[Xuldarinar]

A neat "darkness and light" gish could be a Shadowcaster into Celestial Mystic. They get some interesting passive defenses.

Shadowcasters also qualify for Harper Agent pretty easily. Shadowcaster 4/Anything with diplomacy as a class skill 1/Harper Agent 5/Harper Paragon 10 gets you 18/20 shadowcaster mysteries and +12 BAB: not the best, but interesting at least.

That does sound interesting. I think it could work out quite well.


-

Now, to see what I can do about the most restrictive question. This time, I will be taking the fix (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?184955-Shadowcaster-fixes-by-Mouseferatu) into account.

Level|Class Level|BaB|Feat|Caster Level
1st|Shadowcaster 1|+0|Still Mystery|1st
2nd|Shadowcaster 2|+1|-|2nd
3rd|Shadowcaster 3|+1|Shadow Cast|3rd
4th|Shadowcaster 4|+2|-|4th
5th|Shadowcaster 5|+2|Favored Mystery (Umbral Touch)|5th
6th|Shadowcaster 6|+3|Path Focus (Touch of Twilight)|6th
7th|Shadowcaster 7|+3|-|7th
8th|Shadowcaster 8|+4|-|8th
9th|Fighter 1|+5|Blind-Fight, Dodge|8th
10th|Fighter 2|+6/+1|Shadowborn Warrior|8th
11th|Fighter 3|+7/+2|-|8th
12th|Fighter 4|+8/+3|Weapon Focus (Touch Mystery), Weapon Specialization (Touch Mystery)|8th
13th|Fighter 5|+9/+4|-|8th
14th|Fighter 6|+10/+5|Mobility|8th
15th|Fighter 7|+11/+6/+1|Spring Attack|8th
16th|Fighter 8|+12/+7/+2|Greater Weapon Focus (Touch Mystery)|8th
17th|Fighter 9|+13/+8/+3|-|8th
18th|Fighter 10|+14/+9/+4|Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack|8th
19th|Fighter 11|+15/+10/+5|-|8th
20th|Fighter 12|+16/+11/+6/+1|Greater Weapon Specialization (Touch Mystery)|8th

Mysteries
Level|Mysteries
1st|Black Candle, Liquid Night, Mystic Reflections, Life Fades
2nd|Carpet of Shadow
3rd|Flesh Fails
4th|Caul of Shadow, Shadow Skin
5th|Umbral Touch
6th|Umbral Touch
7th|Bolster
8th|Shadow Hood, Warp Spell

[Xuldarinar]

Tossing out an additional question into the mix.

Can one manage a shadowcaster Gish with only Shadowcaster levels?

[peacenlove]

Your best bet is buying a skillful spiked gauntlet and making touch attacks with it, so you have medium attack bonus.
Weapon finesse helps at 3rd level.

[Xuldarinar]

That does seem like a decent approach.

Do you think Karsite (Human or a human descended variant) would be a good or a bad race choice for shadowcasters?


For a gish, they have some things to give. +2 Con and +2 Cha work well with the class and concept, a bonus feat never hurts (assuming a standard karsite), Damage Reduction, Spell Resistance along with Spell Healing can certainly be incredibly helpful, not to mention magic draining attacks. Tossing in automatic proficiency with light armor, medium armor, and martial weapons, it would certainly save on dips and feats. A +2 LA isn't great at low levels, but the benefits seem worth it and the LA can be bought off with ease. The only problem is something I think I could make use of for an argument to allow one being played at 1st level, Spellcasting Inability. If mysteries, prior to becoming Sp, count as arcane spells for this purpose, then such a character would have no ability to cast to anything more than fundamentals prior to Shadowcaster 7, without throwing feats at the problem at least (favored mystery).

A karsite's mysteries per day, assuming that at 1/day they cannot be cast due to Spellcasting Inability, would wind up looking something like this:

Class Level|F|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|3|*|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|3|*|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|3|*|*|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|3|*|*|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|3|*|*|*|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|3|*|*|*|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|3|2|2|2|*|-|-|-|-|-
8th|3|2|2|2|*|-|-|-|-|-
9th|3|2|2|2|*|*|-|-|-|-
10th|3|2|2|2|*|*|-|-|-|-
11th|3|2|2|2|*|*|*|-|-|-
12th|3|2|2|2|*|*|*|-|-|-
13th|3|3|3|3|2|2|2|*|-|-
14th|∞|3|3|3|2|2|2|*|-|-
15th|∞|3|3|3|2|2|2|*|*|-
16th|∞|3|3|3|2|2|2|*|*|-
17th|∞|3|3|3|2|2|2|*|*|*
18th|∞|3|3|3|2|2|2|*|*|*
19th|∞|3|3|3|2|2|2|*|*|*
20th|∞|3|3|3|2|2|2|*|*|*
*Mysteries of these levels can be learned, but cannot be cast without the Favored Mystery feat, at which point they become usable 1/day.

[WeaselGuy]

A neat "darkness and light" gish could be a Shadowcaster into Celestial Mystic. They get some interesting passive defenses.

Shadowcasters also qualify for Harper Agent pretty easily. Shadowcaster 4/Anything with diplomacy as a class skill 1/Harper Agent 5/Harper Paragon 10 gets you 18/20 shadowcaster mysteries and +12 BAB: not the best, but interesting at least.

With regards to the Bolded selection, Ruathar comes to mind, but you generally have to be level 5 or 6 to gain entry (6 BAB or 9 skill ranks or 3rd level spells)

[Darrin]

Shadowcastr's Shadow Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15034783&postcount=14) build (second from the bottom) was a Shadowcaster/Shadow-pouncer gish.

The only other one I remember was AM-1468 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14240897&postcount=93) from Iron Chef XXXIX (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?260333).

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Necromancy is illegal in Cyrodil.