Clarifying on use of "Schism" power

[JW86]

Hello Playgrounders,

I have a quick query regarding the Psionic Power, Schism. The text states:

"Your new “second mind” does not control your body physically but is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions."

I know that psionic powers have 'displays' but none of them involve physical movement, per se - just humming noises, bright lights, etc. - but they do not have 'somatic component' so to speak - so by that extension, this means that most if not all powers can be manifest?

I am just thinking of using a power such as Disintegrate, which involves pointing a finger at the opponent.

My question is - are all psionic powers fair game to use with Schism, or only ones that do not mention any form of physical movement as part of their manifestation?

Many thank.

[Big Fau]

Displays are not what Schism is referring to. Powers such as Energy Ray or Crystal Shard require you to aim them, and since Schism can't control your body it can't aim them for you.

[JW86]

Displays are not what Schism is referring to. Powers such as Energy Ray or Crystal Shard require you to aim them, and since Schism can't control your body it can't aim them for you.

Thank you for clarifying - I'd so far avoided manifesting any powers that required aiming as I felt it would not fit the description of Schism, nice to have it confirmed.

[Dusk Eclipse]

In general you want to use schism for buffing or utlity effects, maybe even to mantain concentration on powera which require it.

[Vaz]

Or to regain Psionic Focus.

[JW86]

I have an StP Erudite in a "Psionics is different" setting. I'd used it so far for Antimagic Fields, Ultrablast, buffs, etc. I will continue to do so. Thanks!

[Emperor Tippy]

Displays are not what Schism is referring to. Powers such as Energy Ray or Crystal Shard require you to aim them, and since Schism can't control your body it can't aim them for you.

That isn't true at all. The power might shoot from your fingertip but nothing, at all, requires that you aim it by aiming your finger tip at your target.

You can hold your hand forward and shoot someone directly behind you while paralyzed by the RAW.

[Slipperychicken]

You can hold your hand forward and shoot someone directly behind you while paralyzed by the RAW.

D&D does have omnidirectional facing, so it makes a sort of sense.

[Grizzled Gryphon]

Tippy is right. I had this argument a long time ago, and in the end, there isn't anything saying you have to physically aim at the target. So, even a paralyzed and prone psion was able to disintegrate the creature that had reduced his dex to zero.

[Phelix-Mu]

Tippy is right. I had this argument a long time ago, and in the end, there isn't anything saying you have to physically aim at the target. So, even a paralyzed and prone psion was able to disintegrate the creature that had reduced his dex to zero.

I can see that the schism might not have normal senses, as it has no control over the body. While I agree you don't have to move to aim, you may need eyes or some other method of seeing the target. Not sure about this, though, in particular whether the schism benefits from your awareness of your surroundings (some serious gray area here...is making Spot checks a purely mental action? what's the penalty to Spot for not being able to actually turn your head?).

[Grizzled Gryphon]

If there was a RAW penalty for making spot checks without being able to turn your head, it would have been in the paralyzed entry, for sure.

[Vaz]

I can see that the schism might not have normal senses, as it has no control over the body. While I agree you don't have to move to aim, you may need eyes or some other method of seeing the target. Not sure about this, though, in particular whether the schism benefits from your awareness of your surroundings (some serious gray area here...is making Spot checks a purely mental action? what's the penalty to Spot for not being able to actually turn your head?).

Yes. Your mind is attempting to make sense of what it sees is what the spot check is, and why it's Wis based, rather than Dex. Omnidirectional facing means that you can scan around you during the 6 seconds in which its your turn. If you're paralyzed, or one of a variety other circumstances which are inflicted upon you and stopping you from operating in the normal fashion then a DM is within rites to say "no, you did not see the foe behind you, they were not in your Arc of Sight when you were paralyzed.

Paralyzed can get daft if you're paralzyed; for example, you cannot breath so start suffocating, you cannot hear due to your timpanic membrane being completely incapable of moving, etc.

[Phelix-Mu]

My issue is more about whether the schism-mind has control over your eyes, as the text of the power seems to imply that it doesn't. If the schism can't see, I doubt it can aim.

[Necroticplague]

It's not an entirely seperate entity:it's still your brain. Logically, it knows everything you know. Since what you sensing is something you know, the Schism then knows (at least secondhand) what all of your senses are experiencing. Or even more simply;Even if the schism can't aim (which it might not need to), then you can aim and have the schism manifest.

Although on a side note, I never got why it had to stick with mental only actions. Is giving yourself intentional Alien Hand Syndrome really that outlandish?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Simply put, there's absolutely nothing in RAW that could impede your schism's ability to manifest and use -all- of the powers you have available to their fullest function and ability, save those its ML is too low to activate.

Any and all restrictions placed on its ability to manifest and manipulate powers, beyond the reduced ML described in the power, is unquestionably a houserule and probably shouldn't be employed for the sake of saving everyone a massive headache. Trying to make and use "sensible*" rules for such restrictions would make the power more trouble than it's worth. If you feel you absolutely cannot accept how it works by RAW just ban the power and move on.

*what's actually sensible, or at least seems so, will vary from person to person, sometimes dramatically. Serious, just skip it.

[Phelix-Mu]

I actually have let it do just about any manifesting in the past. The issue with aiming was new to me as of this thread.

Glad we've agreed it wasn't an issue after all.:smallsmile:

[TuggyNE]

Although on a side note, I never got why it had to stick with mental only actions. Is giving yourself intentional Alien Hand Syndrome really that outlandish?

It's not that big a deal. Just use control body from your schism on yourself to switch your attack and AC bonuses from Str and Dex respectively to Int. :smallwink:

[Phelix-Mu]

It's not that big a deal. Just use control body from your schism on yourself to switch your attack and AC bonuses from Str and Dex respectively to Int. :smallwink:

WHAT?? OMG, GENIUS!! Does that really work? Who do I credit with this thing of beauty?

I can't tell if that comment is serious, but man, I REALLY WANT IT TO BE SERIOUS.

[Kelb_Panthera]

WHAT?? OMG, GENIUS!! Does that really work? Who do I credit with this thing of beauty?

I can't tell if that comment is serious, but man, I REALLY WANT IT TO BE SERIOUS.

There're a couple of catches but it does work.

You lose the ability to take AoO's and it's an upper mid-level trick since it will require you to be at least level 13 to manifest control body with the -6 ML penalty the schism faces, barring ML boosting. It also eats your schism's standard action for each round you maintain it.

[TuggyNE]

WHAT?? OMG, GENIUS!! Does that really work? Who do I credit with this thing of beauty?

I forget where I saw this general idea, but I know I've seen suggestions to do that with solicit psicrystal. Same general concept.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I forget where I saw this general idea, but I know I've seen suggestions to do that with solicit psicrystal. Same general concept.

That can be found in the Psionic Tricks Handbook linked in my sig, under the "Move By Wire" trick. You do it with your Psicrystal in order to gain a free set of physical actions with Int to Attack and AC (usually a good thing for your Psion). Losing out on AoOs isn't that great a loss unless your build is built to take advantage of them.

[Psyren]

That can be found in the Psionic Tricks Handbook linked in my sig, under the "Move By Wire" trick. You do it with your Psicrystal in order to gain a free set of physical actions with Int to Attack and AC (usually a good thing for your Psion). Losing out on AoOs isn't that great a loss unless your build is built to take advantage of them.

Losing AoOs is kind of a big deal though because you lose one of the primary tactical purposes of melee, i.e. being able to stop casters from casting or ranged from firing near you.

[TuggyNE]

Losing AoOs is kind of a big deal though because you lose one of the primary tactical purposes of melee, i.e. being able to stop casters from casting or ranged from firing near you.

Who said anything about melee, though? Int to attack/damage works on ranged attacks too.

[Psyren]

Who said anything about melee, though? Int to attack/damage works on ranged attacks too.

It won't get Int to damage - although "the bonus on damage rolls is equal to your intelligence bonus," arrows don't have a bonus on damage to begin with. (Well, composite bows do, but you still need the minimum strength to draw them.)

[icefractal]

It won't get Int to damage - although "the bonus on damage rolls is equal to your intelligence bonus," arrows don't have a bonus on damage to begin with. (Well, composite bows do, but you still need the minimum strength to draw them.)Thrown weapons.

[TuggyNE]

It won't get Int to damage - although "the bonus on damage rolls is equal to your intelligence bonus," arrows don't have a bonus on damage to begin with. (Well, composite bows do, but you still need the minimum strength to draw them.)

That's not very hard to get past. 12 Str and +100 gp for +5 to +10 damage on every shot is a pretty good deal.

[Slipperychicken]

Although on a side note, I never got why it had to stick with mental only actions. Is giving yourself intentional Alien Hand Syndrome really that outlandish?

No, but having your body take multiple simultaneous sets of actions because you grew a second brain is kind of outlandish.

[Psyren]

That's not very hard to get past. 12 Str and +100 gp for +5 to +10 damage on every shot is a pretty good deal.

I'd think the cap would still apply.


Thrown weapons.

That would work, though range/expense are more of an issue.

[Necroticplague]

No, but having your body take multiple simultaneous sets of actions because you grew a second brain is kind of outlandish.

Not really. Multitasking (the feat) allows you to do exactly that without even splitting your own brain. Or to use a real life example, octopi can do several things at once easily because each of their tentacles have their own little brains in them (o.k, bundles of nerves that controls pseudo-independently from the primary brain, but close enough).Or returning to my example: alien hand sydrome, where the rest of the body is taking one action, while that arm is taking another.

Side note: Schism is partitioning the mind like a hard drive, not growing another brain. Growing an extra brain would be an Egoist power.

[Craft (Cheese)]

No, but having your body take multiple simultaneous sets of actions because you grew a second brain is kind of outlandish.

Technically you only grow a second mind, not a second brain. So you shouldn't get extra actions at all, even mental ones, because the power doesn't actually increase your brain's processing capability. It should actually hinder you with no benefit, because it double's the load your brain has to handle without improving its capacity to do so.

[Slipperychicken]

Not really. Multitasking (the feat) allows you to do exactly that without even splitting your own brain. Or to use a real life example, octopi can do several things at once easily because each of their tentacles have their own little brains in them (o.k, bundles of nerves that controls pseudo-independently from the primary brain, but close enough).Or returning to my example: alien hand sydrome, where the rest of the body is taking one action, while that arm is taking another.

I'm talking about things like how, under that interpretation, splitting your brain up would let you move twice as fast while making twice as many attacks as normal. Those things aren't restricted by your multitasking ability, but the limits of your body and training.

Not to mention the risks involved with sending contradictory commands to each muscle, like if one brain orders an inhalation, but the other wishes to exhale, or if you have joints trying to move in two directions at once with enough force to cause injury.

[Necroticplague]

I'm talking about things like how, under that interpretation, splitting your brain up would let you move twice as fast while making twice as many attacks as normal. Those things aren't restricted by your multitasking ability, but the limits of your body and training.

Not to mention the risks involved with sending contradictory commands to each muscle, like if one brain orders an inhalation, but the other wishes to exhale, or if you have joints trying to move in two directions at once with enough force to cause injury.

Interpretation? Interpretation would be if I'm saying that's what the rules do say, which I adamantly know they do not. I'm just saying it SHOULD work differently. I think it should work , but know it does not, like this:

Your mind splits into two independent parts. This allows you to make more efficient use of your time. Each round, you may take an extra standard action in place of your move action.

You do have a point about contradictory commands (in fact, that's often what kills two-headed animals when one is breathing while the other is eating). however, that kind of simulationist detail seems to be one of those things dnd tends to ignore in general (the same thing that gave us omnidirectional facing).

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Losing AoOs is kind of a big deal though because you lose one of the primary tactical purposes of melee, i.e. being able to stop casters from casting or ranged from firing near you.

This enters into the area of how the other characters (be they PCs or NPCs) are being played - if they don't know you can't take AoOs, but do know that casting/firing while threatened provokes, then it would be reasonable for your characters presence to act as a sort of "AoO in being" despite your not being able to take them. Of course, I don't know that this would be followed by those playing the threatened character (be they player or DM), but it would certainly be reasonable for them to. Unless they (the characters) do know you can't take AoOs, that is.

And this of course relies on your character making use of the AoO mechanic, which I still contend isn't that great a loss, unless you're building to take advantage of them. It's one potential, situational attack per round, after all.


I'm talking about things like how, under that interpretation, splitting your brain up would let you move twice as fast while making twice as many attacks as normal. Those things aren't restricted by your multitasking ability, but the limits of your body and training.

Not to mention the risks involved with sending contradictory commands to each muscle, like if one brain orders an inhalation, but the other wishes to exhale, or if you have joints trying to move in two directions at once with enough force to cause injury.


Them's the rules. That they are potentially nonsensical is no great surprise. And besides, it's magic (well, psionics), so they've clearly figured a way around the practical issues this might create, otherwise the spell (power) wouldn't work anyway. And in the case of Control Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm), it seems less that you're sending signals through their nervous system ("You psychokinetically control the actions of any humanoid...Control body doesn’t require mental contact with the subject, since you are actually forcing limb movements independent of the target’s mind.") and more that you're physically moving them around, like a puppet. So no risk of contradictory commands coming down the wires.

[DizzyXI]

I can see an alternate interpretation that you only get a single move or standard action total, since it says "The subject is treated as being staggered and may only perform a single move action or standard action under your direction each round." This either means it can do one move or standard under your control, and then the rest of it's moves, or can do one move or standard under your control and then a move or standard of its own, or that it only get one move/standard, which you control. The lack of commas is unfortunate.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That is the PF version, 3.5 version has no such language.

[DizzyXI]

Ahh right, that makes more sense :)