Unarmed Swordsage Adaptation (Variant?)

[GhengisConrad]

RAW:
The name “swordsage” naturally implies a character who carries
a sword or weapon of some kind. However, a swordsage
works very well as a supernatural martial artist of almost
any school or origin. To create a monklike character with
a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the
swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and
remove his light armor proficiency.

-------------------------

Is there any official comment or ruling on whether or not this grants you improved unarmed strike like a damn monk or not?!

My table is a very serious RAW whore group who loves to give the benefit of the doubt... to NOT letting something happen. Unless that's just the way everyone plays it anyways.

[Twilightwyrm]

No, there is not. This particular adaptation is a possible suggestion for homebrew content. It just happens that this particular "adaptation" was popular enough that people started considering it a legitimate variant on the swordsage class.

[WhamBamSam]

Eh, it's a pretty explicitly described adaptation, even if it ends up a little dysfunctional.

You lose the Swordsage's armor proficiency. You gain unarmed strike damage as a Monk of your Swordsage level.

Your AC bonus still only works in light armor, so you need to get the proficiency elsewhere.

The only thing that requires adjudication is whether Swordsage levels stack with Monk levels for determining unarmed damage. If you feel like being really strict, rule that the progressions are separate instead of Swordsage levels simply being treated as Monk levels for the purposes of unarmed damage.

It's not nearly as vague or homebrew-y as the Arcane variant.

[GhengisConrad]

[...] You gain unarmed strike damage as a Monk of your Swordsage level [...]

Having a damage, and not taking penalties are two different aspects. I would say, RAW, you probably have to take Improved Unarmed Strike to benefit without penalty on this action here.

[WhamBamSam]

Having a damage, and not taking penalties are two different aspects. I would say, RAW, you probably have to take Improved Unarmed Strike to benefit without penalty on this action here.Yes. You absolutely do. I forgot to mention that in my post. IUS is a Monk bonus feat, full stop. It is not part of the unarmed damage progression, and hence Unarmed Swordsages don't get it.

However, unlike the Monk, Unarmed Swordsages are at least proficient with Unarmed Strikes by RAW, since the adaptation section doesn't mention losing simple weapon proficiencies.

That's the reason why the damage progression when multiclassing Monk might matter. Monk 1-2 for feats is a decent dip in many builds.

[Vertharrad]

Why doesn't this variant also give the monks AC bonus progression off the chart? I figure they would since they loose their armor proficiency.

[WhamBamSam]

Why doesn't this variant also give the monks AC bonus progression off the chart? I figure they would since they loose their armor proficiency.Because it doesn't say anything about changing how the Swordsage AC bonus works, so that means you're doing homebrewing based around the general idea the adaptation section describes, rather than just taking the changes listed at face value.

[prufock]

Yes. You absolutely do. I forgot to mention that in my post. IUS is a Monk bonus feat, full stop. It is not part of the unarmed damage progression, and hence Unarmed Swordsages don't get it.
This isn't correct. SS adaptation never mentions "damage," it says "monk's unarmed strike progression." Damage is only part of that. IUS as a bonus feat at level 1 is also part of the unarmed strike progression. The swordsage variant gets both, as well as full strength to damage.


Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.

[WhamBamSam]

This isn't correct. SS adaptation never mentions "damage," it says "monk's unarmed strike progression." Damage is only part of that. IUS as a bonus feat at level 1 is also part of the unarmed strike progression. The swordsage variant gets both, as well as full strength to damage.Huh. That's... probably right. And so one of the two sort of worth it monk levels suffers another indignity.

I should slow down my posting a bit. My derp to not derp ratio is getting a bit high tonight.

[prufock]

And so one of the two sort of worth it monk levels suffers another indignity.
Poor, poor monk. :smalltongue:

As for multiclassing, it seems that the SS and monk damage should overlap, not stack, since neither would be a bonus. It's simply "here's what you get at level x."

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, I was about to point that out too. Imp Unarmed is not part of the Bonus Feat class feature.

Also, you can still wear light armor, you just suffer the ACP as a penalty. A suitably suited suit of light armor with no ACP gives no penalties to attack.

[WhamBamSam]

Poor, poor monk. :smalltongue:

As for multiclassing, it seems that the SS and monk damage should overlap, not stack, since neither would be a bonus. It's simply "here's what you get at level x."I guess the Monk dip still gets Flurry or Decisive Strike, a feat which isn't weapon focus, and Wis to AC a level earlier, and the ability to incoporate a few things like Kung Fu Genius.

Not stacking would probably also mean theat the things which stack with Monk levels wouldn't stack with Unarmed Swordsage levels.

[bekeleven]

Also, never play an unarmed swordsage in a campaign starting level 1. Their AC bonus doesn't kick in until level 2, so until then they've got Dex + Leather on a melee striker.