is there a goblin that doesn't suck for a player to use?

[CyberThread]

Okay am not talking about pathfinder, and am not comparing them to humans.


But is there any goblin that doesn't actually suck with kobold like stats, but a +1 level adjustment?

[geekintheground]

air goblin?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Where are you getting +1 LA from? Here's Goblin from the SRD:

Goblins As Characters
Goblin characters possess the following racial traits.

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

It's not a great race, but it's far from unsalvagable.

[infomatic]

Kobolds have gotten better treatment from WotC over the years, but some goblins are fine.

Air Goblin, as noted. Jungle isn't bad either. Bhuka (Sandstorm) is pretty setting-specific but is good in that area.

[Grizzled Gryphon]

A feral, half celestial, mineral warrior, half dragon goblin is pretty nice.:thog:

[Elderand]

I hear blues in pathfinder are pretty nice.

[Phelix-Mu]

Obligatory mention of blues (Expanded Psionics Handbook), but they are so anti-suck they might not even count as goblins.

EDIT: Shoot, out-goblin'd.

[TuggyNE]

Obligatory mention of blues (Expanded Psionics Handbook), but they are so anti-suck they might not even count as goblins.

XPH blues are terribad for LA+1. If you knock them down to LA +0 they're OK, though arguably a bit underpowered still.

Or I guess you could use PF's blues instead.

[Phelix-Mu]

XPH blues are terribad for LA+1. If you knock them down to LA +0 they're OK, though arguably a bit underpowered still.

Or I guess you could use PF's blues instead.

As a big fan of knocking off +1 LAs in exchange for minor nerfs (a la "lesser" variants), I guess I'd just forgotten that they are +1. As evidenced by the atrocious 3.5 stats for the Dark Sun races, something about being psionic just seems to attract gratuitous LA.

[inuyasha]

I dunno...core goblins are nice

[angry_bear]

I dunno...core goblins are nice

They aren't bad, they aren't great or anything; but I'd say they're about even with the races in the PH.

Can anyone explain why hobgoblins have a +1 level adjustment? Seems unnecessary to me.

[Thurbane]

They aren't bad, they aren't great or anything; but I'd say they're about even with the races in the PH.

Can anyone explain why hobgoblins have a +1 level adjustment? Seems unnecessary to me.
Every race with positive net ability score modifiers (at least in core), earned LA.

Out of core, things like Lesser Aasimar and some of the Anthropomorphic Animals ignore this.

I too agree that Hobgoblins get the short end of the shaft with LA +1.

I believe the Kalamar setting has LA +0 Hobgoblins.

[Vizzerdrix]

Try the Vril from Drow of the Underdark. They have some interesting abilities.

[Phelix-Mu]

Ah, right, the vril are actually pretty awesome. Some unique flavor, a distinctive look, and some cool interaction with the iconic setting of the Underdark. Plus, a history of slavery and magical breeding is rife with good character concepts.

[XionUnborn01]

I just read the Vril entry in DotU. Am I blind or is there not an actual stat block for the Vril with the skinshift/shriek abilities? I found the stat adjustments but I can't seem to find the info for the special abilities.

[SowZ]

They aren't bad, they aren't great or anything; but I'd say they're about even with the races in the PH.

Can anyone explain why hobgoblins have a +1 level adjustment? Seems unnecessary to me.

Because plus two to a stat is definitely worth a level. Hence why so many people considered making Hulking Hurler have +2 Str per level as it's only class feature, a d0 Hit Die, keep the nill BAB progression, no save progressions, and give 0 skill points per level.

[magwaaf]

Dekanter Goblin
+6 str
+2 dex
+4 con
+2 int
+2 wis
-2 cha

med size

20 ft move

darkvision 60

fast healing 3

cold resist 5

natural attacks
horn 1d6 x3
2 claws 1d4 x2

+4 LA

so except for the last line, these are great lol but you are hearing from a guy that would take the +7 LA to play a rakshasa

[Vizzerdrix]

I just read the Vril entry in DotU. Am I blind or is there not an actual stat block for the Vril with the skinshift/shriek abilities? I found the stat adjustments but I can't seem to find the info for the special abilities.

Check out the errata. Some wicked racial feats as well.

[SowZ]

Dekanter Goblin
+6 str
+2 dex
+4 con
+2 int
+2 wis
-2 cha

med size

20 ft move

darkvision 60

fast healing 3

cold resist 5

+4 LA

so except for the last line, these are great lol but you are hearing from a guy that would take the +7 LA to play a rakshasa

That's it for 4 LA? No SLAs? No flight? No spellcasting as a 2nd level sorcerer? No SR? No special attack? Geeeeeez.

[Bavarian itP]

XPH blues are terribad for LA+1.

I'd say it's a typing error; the example statblock has LA+0, only the "as characters" section has +1.

edit: Nevermind, Errata says they're +1 :(

[TuggyNE]

Every race with positive net ability score modifiers (at least in core), earned LA.

The sad thing is that doesn't even justify blues, which have -2 net in the XPH.

[SowZ]

Do you guys think WotC had some guidelines or rubrics for 'what constitutes the value of a character level?' when developing non-core races or was the policy just, 'eh, eyeball it. Use your gut, should be fine.'

[XionUnborn01]

Check out the errata. Some wicked racial feats as well.

Dude, the Vril are sweet! They're like almost a perfect example of a flavorful and well balanced race.

[Chronos]

Ordinary out-of-the-box goblins are just fine. They're like halflings, except they trade a -2 Cha and loss of some irrelevant abilities for faster movement and darkvision. They're ideal race for a non-social rogue in a core-only game, and not bad for a wizard, either.

Blues sit in that odd area where there is no fair LA. With the LA of +1, they're useless, but if they were LA 0, they'd be the default go-to choice for a wizard or psion, and they didn't want that either. WotC decided that nobody playing blues was more acceptable than everyone playing them, so they erred on the side of LA.

[Arc_knight25]

Gonna have to say Bugbear. If you can suck up the +1 LA for:

+4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
Medium size.
A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
Racial Skills: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot.
Racial Feats: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it two feats.
+3 natural armor bonus.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., scent.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

Then I would say go Bugbear.

See if you can drop the Racial levels

[Evandar]

Do you guys think WotC had some guidelines or rubrics for 'what constitutes the value of a character level?' when developing non-core races or was the policy just, 'eh, eyeball it. Use your gut, should be fine.'

Probably the latter, seeing as they allowed acid-breathing sharks.

[Seharvepernfan]

Goblins make for good sneaks. People forget they have a base speed of 30ft despite being small, meaning they're better jumpers than gnomes/halflings, and can sneak/swim/climb faster as well.

If you're playing a sneaky stabby sort of rogueish character, a goblin will work nicely, since they have good dex and are small-sized (bonus to hit and ac). Arguably better than humans or elves in that respect.

[limejuicepowder]

Yeah, vanilla goblin is very solid for a rogue-type. Arguably the best in core - the only reason halflings come close is the +1 to all saves, which is fairly nice. I'd still take faster movement, proper darkvision, and a higher bonus to move silently though.

I admit to having a soft spot for bugbears....I got to play one once, but he was quickly turned to stone by a basalisk. Poor guy.

[Greenish]

I just read the Vril entry in DotU. Am I blind or is there not an actual stat block for the Vril with the skinshift/shriek abilities? I found the stat adjustments but I can't seem to find the info for the special abilities.Vril statblock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070504a), for all the good it'll do to you. They don't have LA given, so they're not technically playable.


Bugbears are terrible what with their RHD and LA, Hobgoblins are pretty weak for their LA, Blues and Snow Goblins have LA for no discernible reason…

Standard goblins are decent, as are the aforementioned air goblins and jungle goblins. Aside from sneaks, they're pretty good for mounted characters, and it doesn't take all that much work to make a decent primary melee out of one, either.

[Envyus]

Once you are level 3 you can easily get rid of the LA Hobs have and it was like you were never an LA monster.

[ShurikVch]

Goblyn (Ravenloft, Dr#339)

4 RHD

+6 dex
+2 con
-4 int
+2 wis
-2 cha

med size

30 ft move

darkvision 90

SR 6

telepathy 10 miles (with master)

natural attacks
2 claws 1d6
bite (-2) 1d6

Improved Grab (claw)

Feasting (Ex): bite damage in grapple 2d6, wounded get -1 to Diplomacy and Gather Info until healed

Scary Visage (Ex): as standard action - enemy must make DC 11 Will save or cover for 1 round (DC is Cha-based)

+4 racial to Climb, Hide and Move Silently

+2 LA

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Do you guys think WotC had some guidelines or rubrics for 'what constitutes the value of a character level?' when developing non-core races or was the policy just, 'eh, eyeball it. Use your gut, should be fine.'

Early on, I think they just gave races what they thought they should have. Then made them +1 LA, because they were marginally better than the most similar PHB race. Sadly this would mean effectively trading a full character level for +2 to a stat and darkvision over low light.

[Bavarian itP]

As long as the Half-Orc is LA+0, the Hobgoblin absolutely deserves LA+1 :smallsigh:

[Greenish]

As long as the Half-Orc is LA+0, the Hobgoblin absolutely deserves LA+1 :smallsigh:If one were to gauge LA by the half-orc, dwarves, humans, and, well, most races should be (at least) +1 LA.

[Thurbane]

The sad thing is that doesn't even justify blues, which have -2 net in the XPH.
Oh agreed 100%. There is no doubt many, many cases of wonky and inconsistent LA exist all throughout 3.X.

As long as the Half-Orc is LA+0, the Hobgoblin absolutely deserves LA+1 :smallsigh:
1/2 Orcs get hosed, for sure, especially when you compare them to Skarn or Neanderthals.

Out of interest, here are the stats for Kalamar Hobgoblins (LA +0) (source (http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/KPG_v3-5_preview.pdf)):

Hobgoblin, Krangi +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Charisma, Fighter
Hobgoblin, Kargi +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, Cleric
Hobgoblin, Dazlak +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Str, -2 Int, Ranger
Hobgoblin, Kors +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, Fighter
Hobgoblin, Rankki +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int, Fighter

As you can see, they aren't very impressive. The only two kind of worth playing are Dazlak and Rankki. Also, look at the favored classes. Who wants to play a Cleric with a Wis penalty??

If I was to have Hobgoblins as a LA +0 race in 3.5, I'd just change their ability mods to +2 Con, -2 Cha and call it a day. They'd be inferior to Dwarves, but better than 1/2 Orcs.

[Invader]

Gonna have to say Bugbear. If you can suck up the +1 LA for:

+4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
Medium size.
A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
Racial Skills: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot.
Racial Feats: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it two feats.
+3 natural armor bonus.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., scent.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

Then I would say go Bugbear.

See if you can drop the Racial levels

You'd suck up four levels for a few stat increases? I'd say they're only good if you can drop the RHD and then LA +1 is to low.

[Thurbane]

Yep, and Humanoid RHD are pretty much the worst there are. At least Monstrous Humanoid is full BAB and 2 good saves.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hobgoblin get no real support to speak of, I personally think they are a pretty solid LA +0 race, good but not that good. Mind you, I prefer the Sunscorched Hobgoblin variant (+2 Con Wis) to normal hobs, but that is the Swordsage fanboy in me speaking.:smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Hobgoblin get no real support to speak ofWhat do you mean, there's an entire racial feat for them in RoE!

[Arc_knight25]

You'd suck up four levels for a few stat increases? I'd say they're only good if you can drop the RHD and then LA +1 is to low.

I noted see if you can get rid of the racial levels at the bottom of my post.

You could also to bring it down to the +1 LA drop the natural armour bonus and maybe a decrease to either dex or str should bring it down to a +1 LA.

Need some Dm approval. I enjoy the flavour of bugbears. The huge burly monster the sneaks in the darkness.

[Dusk Eclipse]

What do you mean, there's an entire racial feat for them in RoE!

They do? I retire my statement then.

[Fates]

Air goblins trade a penanalty to constitution for +4 rather than +2 dex, and +0 rather than -2 cha. They also don't need to breathe. One of the only LA +0 races to get +4 dex, aside from things like anthropomorphic animals (the scourge of the earth).

Agreed that Vril are awesome.

[SowZ]

Air goblins trade a penanalty to constitution for +4 rather than +2 dex, and +0 rather than -2 cha. They also don't need to breathe. One of the only LA +0 races to get +4 dex, aside from things like anthropomorphic animals (the scourge of the earth).

Agreed that Vril are awesome.

And lesser planetouched

[CyberThread]

What do you mean, there's an entire racial feat for them in RoE!



Actually I think you are talking about races of faerun

Swift and silent
Benefit
You can move up to your normal speed while using the Hide or Move Silently skill at no penalty.

Players Guide to Faerun

Resist Poison
+4 fort to posions

Knifefighter,

you can use a lightweapon while grappled at no penalty

[Thurbane]

The only relevant feat I can see in RoE is Darguun Mauler, and that is accessible to all goblinoids from that region. It is an OK feat to take in place of Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), but AFAIK probably won't count as EWP for prereqs.

[CIDE]

A feral, half celestial, mineral warrior, half dragon goblin is pretty nice.:thog:

The LA is too high. Try Feral Half-Minotaur White dragonspawn Goblin.


As a big fan of knocking off +1 LAs in exchange for minor nerfs (a la "lesser" variants), I guess I'd just forgotten that they are +1. As evidenced by the atrocious 3.5 stats for the Dark Sun races, something about being psionic just seems to attract gratuitous LA.

Or in some cases LA: -- for no reason. Such as for the Puppeteer monster entry that I've been wanting to play ever since I first saw it.

But yeah; it sucks that they gave the Dark Sun races those ****ty stats.


That's it for 4 LA? No SLAs? No flight? No spellcasting as a 2nd level sorcerer? No SR? No special attack? Geeeeeez.

Seems legit


Do you guys think WotC had some guidelines or rubrics for 'what constitutes the value of a character level?' when developing non-core races or was the policy just, 'eh, eyeball it. Use your gut, should be fine.'

I think it was more that no two people could actually agree on what a level equaled. These are also the guys that think a level 20's wizard best weapon is blasting stuff in the face.


Vril statblock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070504a), for all the good it'll do to you. They don't have LA given, so they're not technically playable.


Bugbears are terrible what with their RHD and LA, Hobgoblins are pretty weak for their LA, Blues and Snow Goblins have LA for no discernible reason…

Standard goblins are decent, as are the aforementioned air goblins and jungle goblins. Aside from sneaks, they're pretty good for mounted characters, and it doesn't take all that much work to make a decent primary melee out of one, either.

It's specifically LA: -- that nets a nonplayable race/template. I don't see that anywhere.

Otherwise humans, elves, dwarves, and gnomes are all unplayable.

Besides, why would they turn a playable race with race-specific feats into a non-playable one?