Hell-Diving: Advice and Equipment

[Scarce]

My party is currently camped out in the town of Ribcage, in the Outlands, and they have to go through the portal to Avernus. They need supplies for their journey. Things to survive the various hazards of Baator, things to combat devils, and things to make general travel easier.

If it helps, the party consists of all 10th level characters, including a human warlock, a gnome illusionist, two elf rangers/scouts, a human swashbuckler/rogue.

Edit: Forgot about our Half Dragon Warblade Barbarian, who focuses on natural attack pouncing. He has 20000 gold and a serious problem with both stealth and overcoming DR.

[Kelb_Panthera]

When going to Baator there's a few things to know.

First and foremost, you need to know, specifically, where you're going and to get there and back out of the pit as quickly as is possible. Baator is not kind to its natives. Outsiders (not the creature type) tend to do -very- poorly.

Second, know which layer you're going to be spending time on. Preparing for an adventure across the blasted, bloody plains of avernus is a very different prospect from preparing for the boundless ice-floes and killing cold of stygia or cania.

Third, avoid unnecessary combat at all costs. The entire plane is under the control of a single massive organization. They'll back-stab each other easily enough to get ahead but they'll usually dog-pile on any outsider that makes trouble, partly for the joy of it and partly for the opportunity to claim some prestige in the eyes of their bosses. Canonically the whole of the realm also requires travel papers to get around without being incarcerated just for being there. There are forgers that'll make fakes for you but those are usually only good for a fairly short period and the forgers aren't above giving you fakes for the wrong destination just to get you caught if you're not clever enough to prevent them from doing so.

Finally, death is infinitely preferable to capture if your DM plays devils up to their full infernal nastiness. Surrender is not an option, at least not if you value your sanity and well-being at all.

The powers of various devils are pretty all over the place so you can't really prepare for much beyond avoiding offensive options that target the common resistances and immunities and grabbing a couple wands of dimensional anchor to keep the buggers from getting away.

Oh, and one last thing; never, under any circumstances, trust -anyone- you meet there, devil or otherwise. The Baatezu are an entire race of evil contract lawyers except for the mindless and beastial enforcers under their command. Survival in hell requires you to be very clever and borderline paranoid or borderline clever and very paranoid.

Good luck.

[Scarce]

How would you go about avoiding detection? Lots of invisibility /silence castings, items to boost Hide / Move Silently, or some other method? And how about getting permit papers? Would these involve Faustian pacts? And what about combat? Is there some good method to get a whole party around a devil's DR?

[Kelb_Panthera]

For avoiding detection;

Don't. At least not unless it becomes absolutely necessary during your visit. Getting caught sneaking immediately implies guilt. Implied guilt is way beyond enough to lock you up. Get your papers, real or fake, and walk openly and with purpose. If you look like you belong there most intelligent creatures won't notice you unless you do something to draw their attention.

If it does become necessary, handle it just like you would in any material plane situation; employ stealth skills and magic until you get out of the place you need to be hidden in then stop hiding and go back to looking like you belong.

Fortunately, the Baatezu's lawful nature and the sheer size of the infernal organization makes the whole mess into a massive bureaucracy. It would take a fairly significant amount of time for word of your perfidy to spread and the treacherous nature of devils makes them prone to conceal failures whenever they can, which failing to catch you would qualify. There's also the matter of the hierarchy being more like a tree in diagram than a net or web. One branch doesn't generally help another unless the importance of the situation gets down to where the branches meet. Unless you're breaking into the home of one of the archdukes you're basically scot-free, at least for a while, if you can get to another boss's territory.



Getting papers;

Getting papers isn't that big a deal. Getting legit papers just means dealing with the bureaucracy. It'll take an absurd length of time, it'll be a massive headache, your access will be very restricted, and you'll probably have to grease a few palms to move things along but there's no chance of getting caught. Bribes will likely consist of simple coin for papers that don't get you very far and don't remain valid for very long, small favors for a bit better documentation, and what amounts to infernal quests for anything serious. Faustian pacts would only be required to get you into areas that you shouldn't be granted access to through legitimate channels but there's also a very good chance that they'll tip off the locals for where you're going in the hopes that you'll screw up somehow and get yourself killed, allowing them to collect your soul ASAP.

Forged documents are expensive. According to FC2 it's 2,000gp per person for papers that allow you to go from point A to point B. 8k per person for unlimited access throughout a layer, and 16k for access throughout the first 8 layers of the plane. Since such forgers only deal with their go-betweens and never actually meet their customers, only unusual circumstances would have them accept payment other than cash.

In all cases, papers have information about the bearer's business in hell and are only good for as long as it would reasonably take to perform that business. Only the lord of the pit, Asmodeus himself, can make legit papers to get you into and around in Nessus. As a consequence, no one would dare to forge such documents.


Combat;

The vast majority of devils have the same DR; good and/or silver. Make sure somebody can cast align weapon and carry some silvered weapons.

Generally though, you want to avoid combat as much as you can. Devils are pretty nasty customers and if you spend too long making all that combat racket more in the area will hear and come to dog pile on you. Only fight if you absolutely must, kill the enemy as quickly as possible, and if things are taking too long withdraw and flee.

[(Un)Inspired]

Bring bribe money and a good lawyer. Going through Baator is like trying to pass through an East German security checkpoint.

[Phelix-Mu]

Also note that in various places in Hell, undead are rather common. The devils deal in the souls of the damned, and, particularly in Dis, some of the damned take the form of special types of wraiths and so forth. You probably should pack a handful of deathward scrolls just in case.

Also note that there are a number of non-devil or non-baatezu that you might run into. These are typically outsiders that have managed to carve out a niche for themselves. They are particularly common on Avernus. Beware. Anyone that is strong/savvy/well-connected enough to forge a habitation in Hell is not a person to be taken lightly. Some of the unique devils living on the first layer are noted in various places as being deceptively strong, just currently/permanently out of favor.

[Scarce]

Is security really tight everywhere? Avernus has armies to contend with the Blood War, but if we were following breadcrumbs, so to say, would things get easier after the first layer? I would imagine that off the roads and away from cities, the devils would be fewer, and that Disguise Self should be able to get us some way before someone asks the right questions.

[(Un)Inspired]

Disguise self doesn't grow you bribe money, or passports, or legal jiu-jitsu skills.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is security really tight everywhere? Avernus has armies to contend with the Blood War, but if we were following breadcrumbs, so to say, would things get easier after the first layer? I would imagine that off the roads and away from cities, the devils would be fewer, and that Disguise Self should be able to get us some way before someone asks the right questions.

Not everywhere, just in the urban areas and wherever anything important is. Of course all the rural areas have their own dangers.

Avernus is constantly being blasted by fireballs that seem to track to anywhere there's notable activity, such as combat.

Cania and Stygia are icy wastelands. Stygia has a high incidence of undead and patches of ice that radiates negative energy while Cania is virtually nothing but loose ice floes which leaves the danger of falling in and being ground between the ice.

Minauros is all swamps and bogs with all of the attentive dangers to that.

Phlegethos is the iconic fiery hell.

Malbolge.... just read the entry in FC2. Ick.

Maladomini is just a wasteland. There's nothing there outside of the cities.

Dis is pretty much all cities. It'll be rough here.

Nessus is Asmodeus realm. Security really is that tight everywhere down here and here is where the devils' copy of The Pact Primeval, hell's charter, is stored; the other two being somewhere in Mechanus and Celestia.

[Eldan]

The question, of course, is why you're going in. Depending on the reason, you could just get official travel papers.

[Scarce]

The question, of course, is why you're going in. Depending on the reason, you could just get official travel papers.

It's a classic Lost in Space The Planes, scenario. One of our old party members (now an NPC) has the ability to plane shift back and, for reasons unbeknownst to us, he traveled through the portal to Avernus about a week ago and has been leaving breadcrumbs in the form of his personal Arcane Mark across the better half of the Outlands and the Hells. We need to find him (or a convenient portal home) if we don't want to die in the outer planes.

[Lightlawbliss]

It's a classic Lost in Space The Planes, scenario. One of our old party members (now an NPC) has the ability to plane shift back and, for reasons unbeknownst to us, he traveled through the portal to Avernus about a week ago and has been leaving breadcrumbs in the form of his personal Arcane Mark across the better half of the Outlands and the Hells. We need to find him (or a convenient portal home) if we don't want to die in the outer planes.

not to be rude, but why are you following a trail as obvious as arcane marks. Chances are somebody else (*cough* devil *cough*) has seen the marks and will be more then happy to make his life short and/or painful. That's assuming somebody else hasn't figured out how to fake it enough to bait you.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Your one piece of gear should be a Scroll of Plane Shift, which the Wizard should be able to use to send your party back to the material plane. From there he can cast Teleport to take everyone home. Problem solved.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While a trip to hell can be fun in its own way*, it's -very- unnecessary for what you've described.

Head toward the spire, climb it, and enter sigil. In sigil you -will- be able to find a portal home or someone to sell you a scroll of planeshift that'll take you to the right place if you look hard enough. Just don't piss off the Lady of Pain and you'll be alright (probably).





*Fun for the players and DM sitting at the gaming table. For the characters it will be one of the most nerve-wracking, harrowing, and probably terrifying experiences of their lives, nevermind last if they screw up.

[Slipperychicken]

Your one piece of gear should be a Scroll of Plane Shift, which the Wizard should be able to use to send your party back to the material plane. From there he can cast Teleport to take everyone home. Problem solved.

Or just get the means to boost your wizard's CL by 3 (so he can activate CL13 Plane Shift scrolls without fail, assuming he didn't ban Conjuration), and use them to pop in to <500 miles away from the location, Greater Teleport (same CL and cost as a Plane Shift scroll) to the precise location. Then do the same thing to get back (I will assume the NPC does not have Plane Shift or Greater Teleport prepared).

Scroll of Greater Teleport: 2,275 gold. x2 = 4550.

Scroll of Plane Shift: 2,275 gold. x2 = 4550.

Total cost: 9100 gold.



Completing the quest with 3 Standard actions: Priceless.



Head toward the spire, climb it, and enter sigil. In sigil you -will- be able to find a portal home or someone to sell you a scroll of planeshift that'll take you to the right place if you look hard enough. Just don't piss off the Lady of Pain and you'll be alright (probably).

Umm... Isn't the spire infinitely tall?

[Eldan]

Umm... Isn't the spire infinitely tall?

It is. Sigil is also probably not on the same plane as the Outlands, even if it is visible from there. Two pieces of evidence: people who drop out of Sigil don't land on the spire and the outlands aren't visible from Sigil.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Nope. Just obscenely tall. The nature of the plane is such that it is simultaneously infinite and less than 1400 miles in diameter. The spire can clearly be seen extending into the clouds from anywhere on the plane but you can't actually move beyond 1400 miles away from it even though you can continue to walk thousands upon thousands of miles directly away from it. It's one of the planes more peculiar traits.

The major issue with climbing it is that you have to do so through completely mundane means since even deific powers are suppressed within 100 miles of the spire and the damn thing is 10's of thousands of feet tall and almost sheer.

[Eldan]

Nope. Just obscenely tall. The nature of the plane is such that it is simultaneously infinite and less than 1400 miles in diameter. The spire can clearly be seen extending into the clouds from anywhere on the plane but you can't actually move beyond 1400 miles away from it even though you can continue to walk thousands upon thousands of miles directly away from it. It's one of the planes more peculiar traits.

It is stated several times explicitely in several books that the spire is infinitely tall.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It is stated several times explicitely in several books that the spire is infinitely tall.

How many of those are actually 3.X rulebooks? There's nothing about it being infinitely tall in MotP. I don't think there's anything to that effect in the Planar Handbook either, though I'd have to double check. I don't think there's anywhere else in the rules except the DMG that the outlands is given more than a passing mention. More damning than any of that is that it has a top and a bottom, things that an infinitely tall structure can't have.

It may have been infinitely tall in 2e but that's not the game we're talking about.

[Captnq]

Figure out how to hit a touch attack AC 100 about 95% of the time and do 800 points of damage a hit. That should solve most of your problems.

or...

GO HOME.

Find where your friend used to live.

Search his bed. Get one strand of hair.

Send him a message via sending. Have ten people cast it at the exact same time so that the 5% chance of failure can be ignored. This message:
In one round, we are going to wish you dead and your soul was free of hell. Do Not Resist. (You have five more words to convince him)

Wish the following:
I wish that my friend X was dead and his soul was removed from his current location to the afterlife where his soul would normally go when I am finished uttering this wish as I understand the concept of afterlife, am, and, as, concept, current, dead, finished, friend, from, go, his, I, location, my, normally, of, removed, soul, that, the, this, to, understand, uttering, was, when, where, wish, would, and X.

Cast true rez with the hair from his bed.

Avoid the DM's plot entirely.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Given the OP's use of "they" in referring to the party I rather suspect he -is- the DM so avoiding the plot entirely is probably not a desirable goal.

Changing it should be okay but negating it outright is bad form.

[Captnq]

Given the OP's use of "they" in referring to the party I rather suspect he -is- the DM so avoiding the plot entirely is probably not a desirable goal.

Changing it should be okay but negating it outright is bad form.

Well then he should stop calling himself a dungeon master and call himself a train conductor because that sounds like a railroad to me.

Rules to DM by:
Rule Number One: No Plot survives contact with the players.
Rule Number Two: Be prepared to destroy everything you have created on a moments notice.

If he can't let the player's out think him, then he's a railroader. However, if he anticipates what they are thinking, then he can set things up in advance.

My example? Have the guy already dead and his soul in a Gem. Problem is, the wish will kill him (done) then take the soul out of the gem to a different afterlife.

Solution: A devil with a high will save is wearing the soul gem in his hat and you roll to save vs the wish (the object gets to use the devil's will save).

But you actually have to ROLL. And you have to live with a natural 1. And sometimes those long shots actually work, and everything you created is shot to hell (no pun intended).

[Fouredged Sword]

What is stopping the party from just casting dismissal on themselves? Getting HOME is easy. Yes the 20% chance of failure sucks, but you will be fine. Just keep casting it, until you get home. Make 2 scrolls per person, in case they get sent to the wrong place the first time when the cleric casts it on them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While player agency is very important it's very not cool to use that agency to completely steam-roll the DM's preparations by bypassing everything he could reasonably be expected to think of.

The DM is a player too and spoiling his fun is no more acceptable than it would be if you were a rogue stealing from party members or a stick-in-the-mud, mothering paladin that forces everyone to stay on the straight-and-narrow.

There's been nothing at all to suggest he's going to -force- them to go to hell and his asking for help in how to survive there, presumably to pass it along to his players, shows that he cares enough to at least be trying to be a good DM.

Getting your preparations scrapped over and over again is, at best, demoralizing. If your players are bound and determined to avoid any plot you've laid out for them, rather than simply cause unexpected changes to the plot which -is- something you have to accept as a DM, then you'll very quickly find yourself no longer willing to DM.

There's a difference between being clever and using wish/miracle abuse to be a douche.

[Scarce]

On the matter of whether or not I am the DM: while the initial post was written by the DM for r/dnd, I, the warlock in the party, copied it here with his permission as it's more of a player quandary than a DM quandary.

Yes, he's a bit of railroader, but this was certainly worse before we were moved to the outer planes, so it's a step in positive direction. Frankly, I'm not entirely sure that our beloved DM has decided on the precise reason this NPC has left for hell, but knowing him, it'll probably be pretty darn important and revealed to us in time. And yes, if we try to avoid the risk of hell-diving, we'll probably be shoehorned into it anyway, if only because he's been stocking up on devil minis.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I see.

That does change things a bit.

My advice remains the same.

Avoid combat as best you can in any urban environment and -do not- get caught skulking about anywhere you don't have papers for.

Pick up some silvered weapons and a wand of align weapon tuned to good.

For your draconic companion, I'm pretty sure there's an alchemical item that can temporarily allow natural weapons to act as silver. Can somebody help me out with what that was and which book it's in?

Get some resistances to fire and cold for the layers where they're relevant. Get a touch more fire than ice resistance since devils are immune to fire and quick to use it as a result.

If the guy's somewhere on nessus, write him off as lost beyond recovery and scoot.

[Karmea]

I'm pretty sure there's an alchemical item that can temporarily allow natural weapons to act as silver. Can somebody help me out with what that was and which book it's in?

Well, there's the Silvered Claws spell (1st level druid/ranger) from BoED at least that accomplishes just that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Kind of wondering how this went, assuming that it went this past weekend.

[Keld Denar]

Aren't there also Bracers that treat all attacks as magic and silver? I wanna say they e'er in the MIC, but a little voice in the back of my head is screaming Lost Empires of Faerun.

Then its just a matter of aligning his attacks.