Pathfinder: a T1 sorcerer?

[Killer Angel]

Sorcerer received some nice improvement, with Pathfinder, but still, she doesn’t enter in the glorious Tier 1. As a general rule, full prepared caster with access to ninth lev. Spells, are T1, while spontaneous ones, are T2.
However, we know that T2 can be as powerful as T1, its main limitation is the lack of variety.
So, the question is: can we have a sorcerer build, with abundance of options, at the point that can effectively be considered a T1?
(the answer is YES, but i’d like to leave Paragon Surge outside the discussion, at least for now…)

How can we give variety to a sorcerer? With more spell known, of course.
So, let’s make an hypothesis, to improve the chassis of a, let’s say, 9th lev. Sorc.

Race: human, using the favored class option, that gives one additional spell each level (even if one level below the highest we can cast), and Arcane Bloodline, remembering that we can make good use of the feat Expanded Arcana… (let’s say we pick it at least once).

Now the number of spell known:
0 lev: 10 (8 + 2 favored class)
1 lev: 8 (5 + 2 favored class + identify)
2 lev: 7 (4 + 2 favored class + invisibility)
3 lev: 6 (3 + 2 favored class + dispel magic)
4 lev: 5 (2 + dimension door + 1 new arcana + 1 Expanded A.)

This starts to be a nice base. How would you improve the number of spell known? Is it possible to reach a sufficiently great variety, to be considered T1?

[Kudaku]

I believe the traditional cheese to supercharge the sorcerer's spell access is using Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge) to pick up extra spells via Expanded Arcana.

[Scow2]

Try race: Half Elf instead, and pick up Paragon Surge as your first third-level spell. For the cost of a 3rd-level spell slot for a few minutes each day, you can grab the Expanded Arcana feat temporarily to grab any spell of the highest level you can cast, or two of lower-level spell slots.

[Killer Angel]

Try race: Half Elf instead, and pick up Paragon Surge as your first third-level spell.

It works also with humans and Elven Heritage.
But (as specified in the OP) i'd like to leave out Paragon Surge, because that alone is a T1 trick.

[Corlindale]

Mnemonic Vestment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/vestment-mnemonic) + a bunch of scrolls can give expanded versatility - best used for spells that are rarely needed but come in handy occasionally.

[Naomi Li]

Sorcerers don't get 2nd level spells until class level 4, so there should actually be THREE bonus cantrips from favoured class bonuses if it's maxed out.

(Also, why scrolls with the vestment? Spellbook pages are far less expensive)

There are also pages of spell knowledge. They're pricey, but of great utility. (Especially if shared between multiple spontaneous casters)

[Corlindale]

Oh yes, spellbook pages are a better choice, I just forget that it also works with those. And it finally gives a sorceror something useful to do with those looted spellbooks that most adventures seem to include at one point or another:smallsmile:

[MukkTB]

There's also the pathfinder downtime rules for researching new spells. If you gather the materials yourself the cost comes to 350*(spell level)^2.

[andreww]

You can also use retraining to remove old spells which have become obsolete more quickly than you can with the 1 per even level ability.

Otherwise it is mostly all about Paragon Surge and/or the Mnemonic Vestment.

[Kudaku]

Did you edit in the Paragon Surge note by any chance? I could have sworn it wasn't there when I posted my reply.

[Karoht]

Spontaneous Caster + Paragon Surge = Some seriously broken cheese.
At level 15 you can cast Paragon Surge to apply Spell Perfection to any one spell on your list. Or having Spell Perfection on Paragon Surge + Quicken Spell means you can have any spell you don't already have on your list as a swift action, for the cost of a third level slot.
Need a Metamagic but don't have it? Surge and get it.

If you want to cheese it up a little more, take the False Priest Archetype, and at level 10 take a 3 level dip in the Arcane Savant PrC. Why?
False Priest-You can substitute a spell slot in place of a charge of any Divine spell completion or trigger item. Any divine means Paladin, Cleric, Inquisitor, Druid, etc. So you buy a lot of divine scrolls, which never run out. And because of Arcane Savant, you cast them at your caster level. If you take the feat Cypher Magic, its caster level +1 instead. This of course stacks with anything else that boosts your caster level, such as the Prayer Beads (+4 caster level for 10 minutes, divine spells only), or the Ioun Stone.
So lets recap. You can get any arcane spell on your list (potentially as a Swift Action) at any time, and you can effectively cast any Divine spell of which you have a scroll (retrieving a scroll from a Handy Haversack is a move action) at any time. It's a complicated setup, but you effectively have all the flexibility of a Mystic Theurge without losing your 9th level spells by level 20.

There are lots of reasons to want access to divine casting. Bestow Grace/Bestow Grace of Champion (yes, I also enjoy Charisma to Hit, Saves, and AC), the Litany line of spells, buffs galore, there are a few divine buffs that increase your caster level (for purposes of dispel checks or spell resistance checks), and you can activate items with 1/day powers without expending the 1/day charge. Don't forget fun little Druid Spells or the Swift Action "Litany" line from Paladin/Inquisitor. Handy stuff.

Tier 1 class, easy. Swiss Army Knife of casting on one platform.

[Killer Angel]

Did you edit in the Paragon Surge note by any chance? I could have sworn it wasn't there when I posted my reply.

Nope, it was already there. :smallwink:
My last edit was at 07:39 (I effectively added the italic font to the note about paragon surge, to give it more visibility)

Mnemonic Vestment is, indeed, very nice, and so is Karoht's suggestion (even if it's probably too much cheesy for our group).

Basically, we have Paragon Surge, Mnemonic Vestment and False Priest Archetype.
Outside these tricks, it seems that sorc is stuck in T2 (even if high T2), right? Other ideas?

[Kudaku]

Dang, just tired I guess. I thought maybe I read and replied to the unedited version and you added the section on Paragon in the meantime. Oh well :smallsigh:

[Reinkai]

My DM flat out banned paragon surge. :(

[Kudaku]

That's a shame, it's a really interesting spell if you control your inner munchkin and avoid the greater levels of cheese - using it for on-the-fly metamagic for instance gives the Sorcerer a great deal of (much-needed) versatility without completely obliterating the wizard.

[Karoht]

My DM flat out banned paragon surge. :(
Plan B. False Priest Archetype + Arcane Savant. Enjoy your Divine spells. I highly suggest looking in Druid spells, there are some real winners right there, nevermind all the rest of Cleric.

[Killer Angel]

My DM flat out banned paragon surge. :(

My DM could ban it, too.
I suppose I shall convince him... if you don't abuse it (a vague and subjective term), every master should be happy that players can have the chance to have access to a spell to risolve particular problems... plus, it's (usually) slow to use it in combat.


Dang, just tired I guess. I thought maybe I read and replied to the unedited version and you added the section on Paragon in the meantime. Oh well :smallsigh:


Don't worry, it happens. :smallsmile: