[3.5] Yet another Mystic Theurge advice thread

[Craft (Cheese)]

This is my Mystic Theurge character I've been working on. This build relies on the (RAW) interpretation of Ur-Priest that you don't lose your domains, or your Turn/Rebuke Undead abilities, when you enter the class, and that you can qualify for Dweomerkeeper with Substitute Domain. The idea is to pump my caster level through the roof with Aligned Theurgy + Aligned Spellcaster, and use Alternative Sourced Spell so I can prepare all of my wizard spells as Divine so they can be used with DMM. Oh, and nightsticks stack, so I don't have to worry about turning uses. Like most MT builds, it doesn't start to really rock until the high levels, but I'm hoping these ideas will make the build viable in a mid-to-high op game in spite of being behind on spell levels for most of my career. Will this build work? Is there anything I can do to improve its performance (especially before level 11)?

Cloistered Cleric 1/Conjurer 4/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 9/Dweomerkeeper (advancing Conjurer) 5

ACFs: Aligned Spellcaster (Evil) [Dragon #357]

Banned Schools: Enchantment, Necromancy

Domains: Evil, Planning, Knowledge

Feats:

1 - Spell Focus (Evil)
H - Quicken Spell
D - Extend Spell
W - Scribe Scroll
F - Persistent Spell
F - Lost Tradition (Ur-Priest, INT) [Bastards & Bloodlines]
3 - Aligned Theurgy (Evil) [Dragon #325]
O - Iron Will (Otyugh Hole)
6 - Alternative Sourced Spell [Dragon #325]
9 - Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
12 - Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell)
15 - Practiced Spellcaster (Ur-Priest)
18 - Selective Spell

Note that Lost Tradition doesn't specify that you need to already have levels in the relevant casting class. I'll meet the half-breed requirement with a template: Probably Unseelie Fey [Dragon Compendium], unless anyone can suggest a better one.

[sideswipe]

Have you read the ex clerics section of cleric?
when you become an ex cleric, of which becoming an ur-priest is against your deity, you lose all class features including domain access.
This includes access to domains and domain abilities.
so by becoming an ur-priest you forsake your domains. and i have not read the last class you have which needs a domain to swap out, but if it is an entry requirement you no longer have domains as of becoming an ur-priest.

this is because, of the fluff. which the ur-priest and cleric classes apply to. you must as a cleric have a deity, or at least a code that you stick to. becoming ur priest, by class definition will go against this almost certainly. so you become an ex cleric and no longer have domains.

there may be a very precise way of getting around this. but classes as they are set this off.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Have you read the ex clerics section of cleric?
when you become an ex cleric, of which becoming an ur-priest is against your deity, you lose all class features including domain access.
This includes access to domains and domain abilities.
so by becoming an ur-priest you forsake your domains. and i have not read the last class you have which needs a domain to swap out, but if it is an entry requirement you no longer have domains as of becoming an ur-priest.

this is because, of the fluff. which the ur-priest and cleric classes apply to. you must as a cleric have a deity, or at least a code that you stick to. becoming ur priest, by class definition will go against this almost certainly. so you become an ex cleric and no longer have domains.

there may be a very precise way of getting around this. but classes as they are set this off.

When you become an ur-priest, you forever forsake all other divine spellcasting capability. Your domain powers and turn/rebuke undead aren't divine spellcasting. You can argue that RAI is you automatically become an ex-cleric (which would strip you of your domains and rebuke undead) upon becoming an ur-priest, but the RAW is that this isn't necessarily so: You only become an ex-cleric if becoming an ur-priest is a "gross violation of the code of conduct required by your deity [or philosophy]."

I'll agree that such an interpretation is a perfectly reasonable thing for a DM to do, which is why I pointed it out as something my build relies upon.

[Uncle Pine]

It's a shame you need to be a human to get all the feats you want, because being a drow would open up the Abyssal Specialist ACF, which lets you "specialize" in a specific group of spells, namely all the [chaotic], [compulsion], [darkness], [evil] and/or [fear] descriptors. It would definitely combos well with Aligned Theurgy + Aligned Spellcaster.

Also, why didn't you directly take the Magic domain instead of relying on a dispellable spell (Substitute Domain)?

[Thanatosia]

Ur-priests despise gods.
That's the first sentance of the Ur-priest description, I think it's fair to say you can't still be a cleric when you despise your god.

Also, there is another flaw with your interpretation of being able to become an Ur-priest without being an ex-cleric. You are interpreting your loss of divine casting as an effect of BECOMING at Ur-Priest, and that becoming an Ur-Priest does not remove your Domains or Turn undead.

But there is no such 'effect' from becoming an Ur-Priest, rather the 'Effect' is that you have to forsake ever regaining your divine casting. But before you can become an Ur-Priest to forsake your divine casting, you have to meet the pre-requisites of the Ur-Priest class.... which includes this:


Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells.

In other words, you have to lose the ability to cast divine spells BEFORE becoming an UR-Priest. You can't just become an ur-priest to lose your divine casting.. rather you have to lose them first, wich traditionally means becoming an ex-cleric and losing all your cleric powers. Once you lose your divine casting and become an Ur-priest then it forever forsakes your ability to regain them, but you cannot use Ur-priest to remove it to qualify for ur-priest itself.

I suppose a strict RAW interpretation means you could permenantly lose your divine casting ability through some other method, but in order for your 'Trick' to work, you need to find some way, other then becoming an Ur-Priest, to lose your divine casting without losing your other cleric powers PRIOR to becoming an ur-priest, and still otherwise qualifying for the class.

[Craft (Cheese)]

It's a shame you need to be a human to get all the feats you want, because being a drow would open up the Abyssal Specialist ACF, which lets you "specialize" in a specific group of spells, namely all the [chaotic], [compulsion], [darkness], [evil] and/or [fear] descriptors. It would definitely combos well with Aligned Theurgy + Aligned Spellcaster.

Indeed: This would let me substitute Aligned Theurgy for Theurgic Specialist (since I'm "specialized" in all evil spells, an all my spells are Evil), which means I could bypass the Evil Domain requirement and take something else (like the Magic domain).


Also, why didn't you directly take the Magic domain instead of relying on a dispellable spell (Substitute Domain)?

Because my other two domains are locked in, unfortunately: I need the Evil domain to qualify for Aligned Theurgy, and I need the Planning domain to get Extend Spell (otherwise I don't have enough feat slots to get DMM: Persist online). I could dip a level of Contemplative to get the Magic domain before I enter Dweomerkeeper, but this has two problems: It loses me a caster level on the wizard side, delaying my acquisition of 9th-level wizard spells until 20th level, though I still get dual 9's, and I want Dweomerkeeper 5 so I can add Wish to my Mantle of Spells. I suppose I could sacrifice a level of Mystic Theurge for it and still get Wish on my mantle, but I still lose the caster level.

Besides, my caster level is so ridiculously high due to Aligned Theurgy (CL 36 by level 20), I doubt dispelling will ever be a serious problem.

[Uncle Pine]

That's the first sentance of the Ur-priest description, I think it's fair to say you can't still be a cleric when you despise your god.

Clerics can devote themselves to ideal without worship a god. Thus, there can be clerics that despise gods without being ur-priests. They are perfectly able to cast divine spells.


If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.



Also, there is another flaw with your interpretation of being able to become an Ur-priest without being an ex-cleric. You are interpreting your loss of divine casting as an effect of BECOMING at Ur-Priest, and that becoming an Ur-Priest does not remove your Domains or Turn undead.

But there is no such 'effect' from becoming an Ur-Priest, rather the 'Effect' is that you have to forsake ever regaining your divine casting. But before you can become an Ur-Priest to forsake your divine casting, you have to meet the pre-requisites of the Ur-Priest class.... which includes this:

In other words, you have to lose the ability to cast divine spells BEFORE becoming an UR-Priest. You can't just become an ur-priest to lose your divine casting.. rather you have to lose them first, wich traditionally means becoming an ex-cleric and losing all your cleric powers. Once you lose your divine casting and become an Ur-priest then it forever forsakes your ability to regain them, but you cannot use Ur-priest to remove it to qualify for ur-priest itself.

I suppose a strict RAW interpretation means you could permenantly lose your divine casting ability through some other method, but in order for your 'Trick' to work, you need to find some way, other then becoming an Ur-Priest, to lose your divine casting without losing your other cleric powers PRIOR to becoming an ur-priest, and still otherwise qualifying for the class.

Actually, this is what the ur-priest last prerequite states (you might want to quote the whole relevant text next time):

Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells. If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken. The character must be trained by another ur-priest.
In other words, this means that the loss of any ability to cast divine spells is a direct consequence of becoming an ur-priest. Since the prerequisite specify that you only lose the ability to cast divine spells, you don't lose domains and rebuke undead attempts unless the act of becoming an ur-priest pisses your deity off or violates your ideals (if you're a cleric without a deity).


Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

[Thanatosia]

Actually, this is what the ur-priest last prerequite states (you might want to quote the whole relevant text next time):
Look again. See the Period? That means it's 2 different sentances.

Sentence 1:
"Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells"
Meaning: YOu have to have no ability to cast divine spells to qualify for the prestige class, if you currently have the ability to cast divine spells, you cannot become an Ur-Priest.

Sentence 2:
"If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken."
Meaning: Once you have become an Ur-Priest, you cannot recover your ability to cast your old divine spells later, they are forever lost to you.

One is a Pre-req (the current loss of all divine spell casting), the other is an effect (The inability to re-aquire the lost spell casting later). You have to lose the spellcasting BEFORE becoming an Ur-Priest, you cannot lose it as part of becoming an Ur-Priest.

The 2nd sentance isn't saying 'hey its ok to still have your divine casting, taking the prestige class will somehow retroactively qualify you for it by taking it away', the 2nd sentence is saying 'if you take this prestige class you can never get that casting back'.

My point stands, by any reasonable RAW, as well as pretty clearly RAI, you have to lose the divine spellcasting BEFORE becoming an Ur-Priest, and the recommended way to do so is to forsake your cleric powers (all of them) and become an ex-cleric. You may be able to jigger a very strict RAW argument to lose your divine spellcasting some other way while keeping your domains and Turn undead ability, but to qualify for the prestige class, you have to somehow sacrifice your divine spellcasting FIRST, it's a pre-req, not an affect of adopting the class.

[Hytheter]

In other words, this means that the loss of any ability to cast divine spells is a direct consequence of becoming an ur-priest.

That's not what it means at all. It says that if you used to be able to cast spells, but can't currently, you can never regain the ability once you become an Ur-Priest. For example, if you have lost your spells due to being an Ex-Cleric (which is the exact example referred to in the text), you qualify for Ur-Priest but you can't later atone and regain your spellcasting.
The pre-requisite clearly states that you don't qualify if you can cast Divine Spells. If the class made you lose Divine Spells, the pre-requisite wouldn't have reason to exist; it would be a Class "Feature" instead of a pre-requisite.

[Vaz]

Don't you need 2nd level spells from Ur-Priest, therefore, Ur-Priest 2 for MT Entry?

Why Evil Domain? It's terrible, with a poor Devotion feat that Persistomancer can easily outclass. Aligned Theurgy (aside from not explicitly requiring a Domain) is wasting feats and a domain because boosting the Caster Level can be empowered by Persistent [name of the spell escapes me; kill weak opponents instantly, providing Strength bonus and Caster level increases).

[Craft (Cheese)]

Don't you need 2nd level spells from Ur-Priest, therefore, Ur-Priest 2 for MT Entry?

Alternative Sourced Spell lets me prepare any wizard spells I want as divine spells, and I have 2nd-level wizard spells. Ergo, I can prepare and cast 2nd-level divine spells.


Why Evil Domain? It's terrible, with a poor Devotion feat that Persistomancer can easily outclass. Aligned Theurgy (aside from not explicitly requiring a Domain) is wasting feats and a domain because boosting the Caster Level can be empowered by Persistent [name of the spell escapes me; kill weak opponents instantly, providing Strength bonus and Caster level increases).

Aligned Theurgy pretty explicitly requires a domain:


Prerequisites: At least one alignment-based cleric domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law), ability to cast arcane spells with the same alignment descriptor as your domain.

Persistent Consumptive Field has a cap equal to half of your original caster level (so at CL 20 you can at most get +10 CL from it, less for me because I'm theurging); Aligned Theurgy has no such cap. Furthermore, if for some reason CL 36 is not enough, I can easily stack on consumptive field too.

[Uncle Pine]

Look again. See the Period? That means it's 2 different sentances.

Sentence 1:
"Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells"
Meaning: YOu have to have no ability to cast divine spells to qualify for the prestige class, if you currently have the ability to cast divine spells, you cannot become an Ur-Priest.

Sentence 2:
"If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken."
Meaning: Once you have become an Ur-Priest, you cannot recover your ability to cast your old divine spells later, they are forever lost to you.

One is a Pre-req (the current loss of all divine spell casting), the other is an effect (The inability to re-aquire the lost spell casting later). You have to lose the spellcasting BEFORE becoming an Ur-Priest, you cannot lose it as part of becoming an Ur-Priest.

The 2nd sentance isn't saying 'hey its ok to still have your divine casting, taking the prestige class will somehow retroactively qualify you for it by taking it away', the 2nd sentence is saying 'if you take this prestige class you can never get that casting back'.

My point stands, by any reasonable RAW, as well as pretty clearly RAI, you have to lose the divine spellcasting BEFORE becoming an Ur-Priest, and the recommended way to do so is to forsake your cleric powers (all of them) and become an ex-cleric. You may be able to jigger a very strict RAW argument to lose your divine spellcasting some other way while keeping your domains and Turn undead ability, but to qualify for the prestige class, you have to somehow sacrifice your divine spellcasting FIRST, it's a pre-req, not an affect of adopting the class.

I'm pretty sure that the RAW works the other way (as my RAI does, tbh), but I think it's pointless to further discuss this point as I have a better idea: should your RAW reading be proven right, it just means that the wannabe ur-priest has to be unable to cast divine spells when he takes the 1st level in the PrC. Fine. Sit inside an AMF as you level up. You can't cast spells inside an AMF, thus you temporarily meet the prerequisite. Since becoming an ur-priest forever forsakes any previously possessed divine spellcasting ability (read: possessed before entering the AMF), as soon as you go out the AMF you'll be a perfectly legal ur-priest who met the PrC's prerequisites without becoming an ex-cleric.