Is the party too weak?

[Dreadgrim]

My players' party is around level 5. I am surprised by how much the frontline warriors get hit.

Excluding the AC 24 Warforged, the others all have AC 17 and 16 (we are talking two barbarians and a 2WF ranger). Challenging but fair opponents all have total attack bonus ranging from +8 to +10 (considering strenght bonus). More mediocre opponent also seem to hit them a lot. Basically there are situations where the Warforged knows he will not take damage at all, and the others taking moderate punishment, and other cases in which the Warforged has a fair challenge but the others risk their lives.

I am worried it's my fault, evn if they found a couple of rings of protection I feel like they are using surpassed armour for theie level. Actually, they are almost with their starting armours. Have I been not generous enough? But then again I also think that they barely bother to flank each other, the Druid never casts AC buffs, and they never once retreated from the frontline even when they were severely wounded. So I think that the two things even out.

Should I let them found lots of magical armour? Or just give them appropriate money and then, if they don't spend it for armour, it's their businness?

[Novawurmson]

From a DM who had a character who specifically optimized AC:

-Touch attacks. There's plenty of ways to get them. Warlocks and Psions with Energy Ray are two very simple sources.

-Target saves instead of AC.

-Use abilities that lower the target's AC.

-I'm guessing because he's Warforged, it's an armor bonus, but if it is at least partially from a high Dex, make sure to flank him sometimes or catch him flat-footed.

-Use difficult terrain/interesting battlefields to make sure that he can't be everywhere at once.

-Try combat maneuvers such as tripping, grappling, and disarming.

- - -


Of course, the point is to, vary the enemy's tactics. You don't want to use all of these all the time - just mix them in more to keep your players on their toes. Make sure enemies at least try hitting the Warforged occasionally before going after softer targets - you don't want the Warforged character to just feel like all his AC is going to waste.

As far as other members of the party having low AC, handing out Rings of Protection, better armor, and Amulets of Natural armor in loot should help, but remember that the Warforged PC can benefit from increased AC as well. Don't give them out every single combat, but just make sure include them more, as you've thought.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, level +8 is considered the floor of useful (anything less than that is just as good as level +8 AC), and level +23 is considered the top end of AC (any more is useless.

Level +13 is considered the golden zone for a character to see meaningful armor. That means that at level 5, anyone with under 18 AC should be seeking other means to not be attacked.

Your warforged is at level +16 so he is sitting nicely at the top half of the AC curve. The rest of the party seems to be in the +10-12 range. Consider some enchanted armor in a loot drop or AC boosting items of other kinds. Note, just boosting their AC 1-3 points should see a notable difference.

[Amphetryon]

So, the party's composition is two Barbarians, a TWF Ranger, a Druid, and. . . anyone else?

As listed, this is a party of Characters that tend to want to hit things in the face from up close. In general, for those types of Characters, AC is of tertiary importance at best, generally behind Attack/Damage Bonuses, Saving Throws, and (possibly) Miss Chance. Miss Chance is a bit pricey at 5th level, unless it's derived from the party's own spells or scrolls/potions, though.

So, if the above is true, how good is the party's damage output, compared to that of their enemies? How strong are their Saving Throws for their level?

[Brookshw]

A bit low really but with the right tactics it could work. I take it they're going toe to toe with most enemies? Maybe suggest they invest some of their loot in AC or throw a few items in the treasure to help bring them up.

[Diarmuid]

How do your characters sit compared to the WBL chart?

What about their encounters. Is it all ECL+2-4, or do they face up against even ECL encounters ever?

These things can make balance seem off.

[Captnq]

Ya know, don't want to sound like a broken record here...

Go to my sig, get the EVD.
Go To Combat Equipment
Open:
Armor Lists v1.02.xls
Armor Special Abilities v1.02.doc
Armor v1.02.doc
Augment Crystals v1.01.doc
Materials v1.02.doc

Read them.

PM me any questions you may have. If you want something researched like: "Hey, Wouldn't it be nice if you grouped things by...?" Send me suggestions. I'm taking a break from any new sections for a while, but I am taking requests.

[Eldariel]

24 AC is quite doable by level 5. As such, Barbies and Rangers are simply under-AC'd. Not that that's necessarily a problem; a good offense beats good defense. Barbarians in particular are adept at ripping people apart before they're severely threatened and their overall setup doesn't lend itself too well to high AC.

Barbarians and Rangers also have other benefits - Will-save bonus from Rage, Ranger's good Reflex-save, et cetera. As such, spells and special abilities are less likely to work on them. Few low level Adepts/Clerics/Sorcerers instead of low level warriors in more mystical societies could make it more interesting. Same with grapplers, trippers, enemies using combat maneuvers.


If you spread out the threats instead of enemies all attacking AC, AC will still be useful without being overwhelming. Rest comes down to party tactics really; these guys could get better AC if they invested in it, but chances are they aren't that interested yet.

[nedz]

This is the player's responsibility not the DM's.

If they decide not to optimise their AC then that's their choice, so long as you give them the choice and opportunity.

[Pinkie Pyro]

As someone who managed such a high AC my DM literally could not hit me after level 3 with anything less than a natural 20, i gotta say, go for the saves. If they're actually optimizing AC, trying to flank/use touch attacks isn't going to help much unless you get both. if not, start handing out magnetic weapons that are attracted to warforged, that'll show him.

[Kudaku]

I'd give them a great big hug next time you're convening. Too low AC is a party problem I'd love to have.

[sideswipe]

i dont think the warforged is a problem.

he should not be penalised for being the only character who cares about not dying.

my DM killed our parties off again and again and again when we were new so that we realises hp and ac were something that you need at least a bit.

[Dreadgrim]

Nah, the Warforged is not a problem, I already use plenty of spells agains him when I feel it's appropriate. And by the way he more than makes for this with his low offensive abilities.

I wasn't really looking for advice against him, I was just actually worried for the others :)

Next session there will be the biggest fight until now, I am running some simulations but if there is one thing I learnt is that battle simulations just plain don't work. The actual game will always be easier in some respects and harder in others.

I am worried about TPK.. :/

[Amphetryon]

Nah, the Warforged is not a problem, I already use plenty of spells agains him when I feel it's appropriate. And by the way he more than makes for this with his low offensive abilities.

I wasn't really looking for advice against him, I was just actually worried for the others :)

Next session there will be the biggest fight until now, I am running some simulations but if there is one thing I learnt is that battle simulations just plain don't work. The actual game will always be easier in some respects and harder in others.

I am worried about TPK.. :/
Did the party start at 1st level? If so, they probably have established tactics for combat. The efficacy of those tactics is as important as anything else in determining if the party will succeed; if you, as DM, make enemies have good defenses against those tactics while simultaneously exploiting the weakness of the party (such as, in this case, the relatively low AC), TPKs are to be expected. If, on the other hand, you make encounters that allow at least some of the typical tactics of the party to succeed at a reasonable rate, while not explicitly targeting the party's most glaring weakness (except as appropriate), TPKs are generally less likely.

TL;DR: Make encounters with the party in mind. Do this not to punish, teach, or beat them, but to challenge them appropriately.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

First of all, if your biggest problem is a weak party with an intra-party AC discrepancy of 7, I envy you. I have a ridiculously strong party with an AC discrepancy of over 20. Anyway...

The druid could be summoning meat shields. Your barbarian and warforged could be using reach weapons to punish mooks who want to get into melee range. Heck, your meleers could just kill things more quickly than they get killed, and heal up afterward. Depending on how they're built.

More importantly, you could be using enemies who do a little less damage, so you can whittle party members down (reliably, since they're going to be hit) without necessarily killing them. It might be a problem if the Druid goes down (I imagine he's "the healer"), but that's what Healing Belts (MiC) are for. 750gp is well within level 5 WBL, and they can basically just fall into the party's lap given your position.

[sideswipe]

Actually a TPK would be good for your party if you have given them enough gold.
There is a wealth by level chart on page 135 of the Dungeon masters guide.

If you have given that amount or more for their level in loot and they have abused it its their fault they TPK. let one of them escape if you want the campaign to continue and it must involve your current group. (let the warforged if you are trying to get the point of AC across).

If you haven't given them enough then you should start handing out a little bit more gold. not items. Gold. then if they don't spend it on heals and armour then kill them.

[broodax]

So, some have confused the question into thinking that the warforged is overpowered and needs to be killed, or that the party should be "taught a lesson", but it looks like you, the OP, have gotten past that already which is good.

In short, yes, your party is too weak, but it's not because of AC (alone). In context though, a party that has low AC, and wades into melee, and doesn't utilize battlefield control through tripping, etc. is going to have a very hard time of things.

I don't think raising their AC's is the right solution, as eventually they're going to fight something that can hit them anyway (or just gets lucky). You should discuss tactics with them a little, let them know about positioning, reach, tripping, etc. If they are totally uninterested, you probably need to evaluate what you and the players want out of the game, because you'll either need to pull punches or they'll die.

One way you could "teach them a lesson" without, hopefully, a TPK, is by sending them up against something with a lot of small attacks. One of the things new players eventually need to learn is that there is a huge difference between taking an occasional attack and standing still for a series of full attacks (potentially from enemies flanking or otherwise in an advantageous position). The best case scenario is one of them is dropped in a round and the others learn to disable or maneuver around the enemy and eventually win the fight.

[strider24seven]

Your party seems very focused on offense - 2 barbarians and a TWF ranger.
Your party (and you to a certain extent) seem to be focusing on the weakest aspect of defense - AC.

RE: The Druid
The druid's strongest role is not to cast AC buffs. Rather, he should be casting an offensive buff, a summon or battlefield control spell, and then using his animal companion and wildshape to beat face as a "better-than-fighter."

RE: The Barbarians
These fellows should be focused on eliminating damaging targets - damage prevention is superior to damaging mitigation. Charging is a very strong option for doing lots of damage to one target, even if they do not use the Lion Totem variant.

RE: The Ranger
Unfortunately as rangers lack precision damage, they tend to be very weak as two-weapon fighters - they tend to miss a lot and do very little damage. My suggestion would be to find him a source of bonus damage for his weapons - levels in scout and swift hunter would be ideal, but if he' s set on being single-classed, flaming/shocking/etc weapons will have to do.

RE: The Warforged
Lacking information about him beyond his race and AC, I assume that he is optimizing for defense, and, like the ranger, has very little offense. Smart (read: anything with more than animal intelligence) enemies should tend to ignore him and focus on other, more dangerous party members, like the Druid- if being played optimally, or the Barbarians if the Druid is not playing optimally.

In Summary:
I actually do not see a problem with your characters' defenses, but rather with their (lack of) meaningful offense. They should be focusing on removing sources of damage rather than preventing it. Characters that try to optimize AC as their primary focus, in my experience, tend to be mostly useless in combat as enemies ignore them and focus on the more offensively-minded players.

If you want to challenge your players more, focus on touch attacks or ignore the Warforged in combat - he probably doesn't actually contribute much beyond his "tanking" anyway. Throw effects that target Reflex or Will Saves at the party to mix it up a little - the biggest draw of a Warforged is their immunities after all.

If you want to coddle your players, throw enemies at them with lower to-hit modifiers, but give them lots of attacks to make it seem like they are doing something in combat. A good example would be a TWF ranger or fighter (i.e. lacking precision damage).

If you want to actually help your players, give them access to miss chances and immediate action disrupts, or better battlefield control. Give them a Wizard or Sorcerer NPC to tag along and help out, or give them magic items that give them a few rounds of concealment per day - check out the MIC, or Captnq's EVD, which I highly recommend anyway.

Note - As I lack a lot of information about the intricacies of your party's strategy, I am only giving general advice based on the information you have given.

[SinsI]

Make the next encounter tripping opponents with reach weapons. This will both teach the players the usefulness of such tactics and give them the necessary means to utilize them themselves.

[Dreadgrim]

Thank you all, I've read a lot of interesting suggestions in the thread.
I will slip those ideas into the campaign ASAP.

[Osiris]

Just use cheap, non-stacking magic AC bonuses. Amulet of Natural Armor +1 and Ring of Protection +1 are pretty cheap and affordable, that's +2 AC right there.

[danzibr]

Thank you all, I've read a lot of interesting suggestions in the thread.
I will slip those ideas into the campaign ASAP.
I know you just posted that this morning, but I'm curious to see an update.

[IIzak]

Make the next encounter tripping opponents with reach weapons. This will both teach the players the usefulness of such tactics and give them the necessary means to utilize them themselves.

Something similar to this would be to throw kuo toa at the party. Kuo toa have a very interesting/annoying little combo built into their mechanics with their staffs that let them grapple you with them when they hit, and they're reach weapons, so hit, grapple, PC uses turn to escape and move into combat range, kuotoa takes a 5 foot drop to avoid an atk of opportunity, repeat as necessary. its and extremely effective tactic, one that can really teach the pc's about certain combat tactics (plus its kinda funto watch as a dm). The kuo toa actually are really good teachers, featuring a heavy amount of smarts and team tactics if played correctly (Minus the whole 1% chance of all of them going violently insane and killing each other). Its not a fool proof tactic, but its possible to use. May also teach your pc's to retreat sometimes in combat

[Grayson01]

This is what I would do. Give them a few Armor up-grades, talk to them about tactics, ask them what their focus is, see about ghetting them to up their damage out put. This will help them live longer in mor ethen just one game. This way you can use more then one tactic with them, you can up your game later on, and then you also have more fun.

[Angelmaker]

This is what I would do. Give them a few Armor up-grades, talk to them about tactics, ask them what their focus is, see about ghetting them to up their damage out put. This will help them live longer in mor ethen just one game. This way you can use more then one tactic with them, you can up your game later on, and then you also have more fun.

While i certainly agree, this doesn't work with every group out there. My latest ga,ing group wouldn't even bother to remembere their bread and butter moves, or the most basic spells. :smallsigh:

so depending on how your recreational hobby is perceived in your group, when the subtle tactics with giving them more loot or the heavy artillery like talking to them about tactics ( which is kind of awkward I feel because as a GM you sort of sit in the enemy's camp :smallbiggrin:) does not work then at the end of the day all you can do is to not bring out tucker's kobolds. :smalleek:

[Spore]

Capture them, throw them into a pit along with some gear and let them fight to their death in the arena. The gear they get will so happen to be the perfect armor, shield and weapon for their stats (you can reason this in with a gladiator "coach" that knows what fighters need after several years training freshmen).

Have them show their combat prowess on 1 on 1. But tell them that amusing things also please the crowd (so the supporting bard that cannot fight would ridicule the enemy whilst dodging any attack on full defense). All are martial characters. You can even give not-so-subtle hints.

"You think to yourself, that you really should prepare for an incoming attack." -> prepared actions.
"You have seen that combat style before. Go on the defense and let the enemy's rage subside, then strike on an advantage." -> dealing with rage/using full defense.
"The enemies are crowding you, any lesser fighter would be overwhelmed, but maybe you should use the walls of the arena to your advantage." -> minimizing flanking positions.

This way, you can also adjust the challenge for your warforged, since he can take more beating. Let the crowd cheer for him and state it out that he is the greatest fighter of the newly gathered bunch. Envy is a powerful ally in uniting a group. Just don't overdo it.

Maybe you could play - after all those single fights - a longer fight with all characters and safety rails off (in the beginning, battles end before they loose, but in the final battle, lethal force is allowed).