Ride by Attack and Pounce

[zahlfrin]

First of all; Hi, everyone! I'm new here, and sorry for bring this back up again (maybe), but I have this question:

What happens if you choose a Wemic and have Ride by Attack and Pounce? If I'm thinking right, you CAN NOT use those feats together.

*Provided that Ride by Attack works when you are mounted on something (let's say a horse). In that case you charge, and may finish your movement passing through your foe.

*Pounce says that you can make a full attack with your natural weapons while charging (let's say 4 arms).

Those 2 feats function correctly if you are either rider OR mount. The real question is: What happens if you are both rider AND mount? In specific, a Wemic?

This is the situation (which, by the way led into an hour argument with players and master, then decided by master's will):

Wemic lvl 10th charges and wants to use the above mentioned feats, all the attacks land, and then rakes the target; and then finishes his move. Is that even possible? I'm aware of the noted rules in both feats, but again, they work only if you are rider OR mount, not both at the same time...

Thank you in advance, and excuse my english, but it's not my native language.

[JungleChicken]

Technically you aren't a rider if you are the mount.

[zahlfrin]

I know, right? The point here is: Do the stack in any way? (Let's keep this example). Described in Wemic racial traits is the following:

*Racial Feats: None, but wemics can acquire the Spirited Charge and Trample feats (ignoring the prerequisites) and apply the benefits to their own melee attacks.

*Natural Attacks: Wemics can make 2 claw attacks, dealing 1d6 points of damage each. A wemic can attack with a onehanded weapon at his normal attack bonus, and make a claw attack as a secondary attack (–5 penalty on the attack roll, and half Strength bonus on the damage roll).

Given they're feline characters, they are entitled to Pounce. What happens in this case when they are making a Spirited charge and Pounce? They have the meanings to do that in this case, and the book does not specify one way or the other. How could it be possible? (if it could be).

Again, sorry for my English. :smallsmile:

[Urpriest]

First of all; Hi, everyone! I'm new here, and sorry for bring this back up again (maybe), but I have this question:

What happens if you choose a Wemic and have Ride by Attack and Pounce? If I'm thinking right, you CAN NOT use those feats together.

*Provided that Ride by Attack works when you are mounted on something (let's say a horse). In that case you charge, and may finish your movement passing through your foe.

*Pounce says that you can make a full attack with your natural weapons while charging (let's say 4 arms).

Those 2 feats function correctly if you are either rider OR mount. The real question is: What happens if you are both rider AND mount? In specific, a Wemic?

This is the situation (which, by the way led into an hour argument with players and master, then decided by master's will):

Wemic lvl 10th charges and wants to use the above mentioned feats, all the attacks land, and then rakes the target; and then finishes his move. Is that even possible? I'm aware of the noted rules in both feats, but again, they work only if you are rider OR mount, not both at the same time...

Thank you in advance, and excuse my english, but it's not my native language.


I know, right? The point here is: Do the stack in any way? (Let's keep this example). Described in Wemic racial traits is the following:

*Racial Feats: None, but wemics can acquire the Spirited Charge and Trample feats (ignoring the prerequisites) and apply the benefits to their own melee attacks.

*Natural Attacks: Wemics can make 2 claw attacks, dealing 1d6 points of damage each. A wemic can attack with a onehanded weapon at his normal attack bonus, and make a claw attack as a secondary attack (–5 penalty on the attack roll, and half Strength bonus on the damage roll).

Given they're feline characters, they are entitled to Pounce. What happens in this case when they are making a Spirited charge and Pounce? They have the meanings to do that in this case, and the book does not specify one way or the other. How could it be possible? (if it could be).

Again, sorry for my English. :smallsmile:

A few misunderstandings here, which I've bolded.

Pounce isn't a feat, it's an extraordinary ability.


Pounce

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

From reading this, you can also see that Pounce has no restriction to natural weapons.

Just being a feline creature doesn't make you "entitled" to Pounce, any more than being a humanoid creature makes you entitled to cast spells. You either have the Pounce ability, from your race or class or whatever source, or you don't.

As you can see in the racial abilities you quoted, a Wemic can use Spirited Charge and Trample as if they were mounted, applying the benefit to their own attacks. They cannot use Ride-by-Attack in the same way, since they have no explicit ability to do so. So unless your Wemic is mounted on an actual mount, they cannot use Ride-by-Attack.

[zahlfrin]

So, you cannot stack those abilities, am I right?

[Urpriest]

So, you cannot stack those abilities, am I right?

You can, but only if you ride an actual mount. So if the Wemic was riding an Elephant, say, then it could use both Ride-by Attack and Pounce. The Elephant still wouldn't benefit from Pounce, and would get only one attack, but the Wemic would get all of its attacks.

[Red Bear]

There is a feat for centaurs that enables you to be considered mounted, so maybe there is something similar.

[Urpriest]

There is a feat for centaurs that enables you to be considered mounted, so maybe there is something similar.

I don't think any such feat exists. Rather, like Centaurs, Wemics have abilities that treat them as mounted for certain purposes. Beyond those purposes, though, neither is actually mounted.

[Darrin]

I know, right? The point here is: Do the stack in any way? (Let's keep this example). Described in Wemic racial traits is the following:

*Racial Feats: None, but wemics can acquire the Spirited Charge and Trample feats (ignoring the prerequisites) and apply the benefits to their own melee attacks.


First things first, the Ride-By Attack doesn't work as written. The feat assumes the rider is the one charging, but the rider can't charge unless he gets off the mount first. The rider can direct his mount to charge, but there are at least two problems with this:

1) The charge rules requiring the mount move to the nearest square and the "continue in a straight line" are not only contradictory but often prevented by the opponent blocking the mount from moving straight, which prevents the charge from happening in the first place (you can't declare a charge if a creature is blocking your path).

2) If Ride-By Attack does allow the mount to continue in a straight line, this takes the mount away from the target, preventing the mount from attacking at the end of the charge, which was part of the whole point of charging in the first place. The text says nothing about when the mount gets to attack, only the rider.

Spirited Charge is also likewise confused. A mounted rider with a melee weapon can't charge unless he gets off his mount. He can direct his mount to charge, and he may share the benefits of that charge, but the rider is not the creature doing the charging.

That being said, let's look at what the Wemic is trying to do. As you note, the Wemic can take Spirited Charge or Trample and treat those feats as if they were both the mount and the rider. In this case, if you can get around the "moving through your opponent's square" problem, Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge do work together. The Wemic counts as both the mount and rider here, which actually matches the text better than the designers originally intended. The Wemic moves up to his target, makes his attack with a damage multiplier, and then can continue in a straight line.

Pounce, however, will not work with Ride-By Attack. From the Monster Manual: "When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability." (emphasis added)

As you can see, with the word "follow", the full attack happens after the charge. If you're using Ride-By Attack, then most likely the Wemic has already moved past the target, and unless he has exceptional reach, can no longer attack his opponent.

Spirited Charge and Pounce do work for the Wemic, though (quite well, in fact).

Trample (the feat) doesn't work with Pounce, Spirited Charge, or any charging at all, actually. It uses Overrun, which is a standard action, and this isn't compatible with any kind of charge, which is a full-round action. Since the hoof attack is contingent on knocking your opponent prone, you're usually better off just attacking your opponent the old-fashioned way.



Given they're feline characters, they are entitled to Pounce. What happens in this case when they are making a Spirited charge and Pounce? They have the meanings to do that in this case, and the book does not specify one way or the other. How could it be possible?

Wemic are a separate race entirely from Catfolk, and thus do not qualify for the Catfolk Pounce feat. It's kind of a lousy version of pounce anyway, since it only works when your target is flat-footed. They don't qualify for Snow Tiger Berzerker (Unapproachable East) or Lion Tribe Warrior (Shining South) either, as both of those are human-only. Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion) works just fine, though.

Spirited Charge doubles your damage when you charge and make a melee attack. Pounce is a charge with several melee attacks. Put them together, and your full attack at the end of your charge does more damage.

[zahlfrin]

In this case, the Wemic cannot continue the movement once he performed the pounce attack. Am I right?
He could, however; make a "Pouncing Spirited Charge" to his target (who BTW, most likely dies after...) but that's where it ends, isn't it? He could not continue the movement, right?

For this to be clearer, please check these scenarios and let me know which one would be the correct one.

Scenario A): Wemic starts round 15 feet away from target, makes a "Pouncing Spirited Charge", all attacks land, END OF THE CHARGE/POUNCE. Deals X damage. End of the turn.

Or...

Scenario B): Wemic starts round 15 feet away from target, makes a "Pouncing Spirited Charge, all attacks land, CONTINUES MOVEMENT (let's say another 15 feet behind target). Deals X damage. End of the turn.

[Urpriest]

In this case, the Wemic cannot continue the movement once he performed the pounce attack. Am I right?
He could, however; make a "Pouncing Spirited Charge" to his target (who BTW, most likely dies after...) but that's where it ends, isn't it? He could not continue the movement, right?

For this to be clearer, please check these scenarios and let me know which one would be the correct one.

Scenario A): Wemic starts round 15 feet away from target, makes a "Pouncing Spirited Charge", all attacks land, END OF THE CHARGE/POUNCE. Deals X damage. End of the turn.

Or...

Scenario B): Wemic starts round 15 feet away from target, makes a "Pouncing Spirited Charge, all attacks land, CONTINUES MOVEMENT (let's say another 15 feet behind target). Deals X damage. End of the turn.

Yes, unless the Wemic is riding another creature, he can't continue its movement.

[Darrin]

Scenario A): Wemic starts round 15 feet away from target, makes a "Pouncing Spirited Charge", all attacks land, END OF THE CHARGE/POUNCE. Deals X damage. End of the turn.


This is correct by RAW (Rules As Written).



Scenario B): Wemic starts round 15 feet away from target, makes a "Pouncing Spirited Charge, all attacks land, CONTINUES MOVEMENT (let's say another 15 feet behind target). Deals X damage. End of the turn.


The rules aren't clear here. Ride-By Attack says "you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again". Pounce says you may make a full attack after your charge. If you say the charge ends when you reach your opponent, you make your full attack, and then Ride-By Attack lets you move again, then this is correct.

If you say your entire movement up to closing with the target and then moving 15' past the target is part of the charge, then Pounce doesn't work there because when you finally get to use it, your target is no longer within melee range (unless you have 15' reach).

Since Ride-By Attack says "and then move again", it sounds like the second movement is no longer part of the charge. So taking your full attack in between those two moves is still within the rules.

The only problem remaining is if your opponent is blocking your path, preventing you from moving in a straight line. The charge rules require you to move to the closest square from which you can attack your opponent. You may get lucky in that there may be several squares that are essentially the same "shortest" distance, and one of these may allow you to continue moving in a straight line. If not, then you need a minor houserule tweak to the Ride-By Attack/Charge rules:

Change "closest space from which you can attack" to "closest space from which you can attack and continue moving in a straight line".


Yes, unless the Wemic is riding another creature, he can't continue its movement.

I don't understand what you're saying yes to here. Wemics and Centaurs have a special rule that allows them to count as both the mount and the rider for the purposes of Spirited Charge and Trample. The text doesn't mention Ride-By Attack, but that feat doesn't work as-written to begin with. In the context of Wemic = mount and rider, Ride-By Attack should work with Spirited Charge and Pounce, so long as the "move again" part of Ride-By Attack means the charge was concluded (along with the full attack) before the "move again" happens.

[Red Bear]

I don't think any such feat exists. Rather, like Centaurs, Wemics have abilities that treat them as mounted for certain purposes. Beyond those purposes, though, neither is actually mounted.

I searched online and I found out that it is a pathfinder feat...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/natural-jouster-combat

[Urpriest]

I don't understand what you're saying yes to here. Wemics and Centaurs have a special rule that allows them to count as both the mount and the rider for the purposes of Spirited Charge and Trample. The text doesn't mention Ride-By Attack, but that feat doesn't work as-written to begin with. In the context of Wemic = mount and rider, Ride-By Attack should work with Spirited Charge and Pounce, so long as the "move again" part of Ride-By Attack means the charge was concluded (along with the full attack) before the "move again" happens.

No, it shouldn't.

Look, we're arguing RAI here, right? The text says that Wemics can ignore the prerequisites for Spirited Charge and Trample. Ride-by Attack is a prerequisite for Spirited Charge. It's pretty clear that the intent there is that Wemics wouldn't actually take Ride-by Attack, and thus wouldn't be able to use it. I don't think it was omitted, I think it was an ability that, like Mounted Combat, was supposed to be exclusive to characters that are actually mounted.

[zahlfrin]

Thanks a lot, guys!!
It really helped me figuring out what to do (and not to do) with my Wemic companion!! lol

See you soon I hope!!
I'll be opening a new thread for opinions on a build, I hope to see you there too!

Greeting from México!
Zahlfrin.