Hybrid power

[ImaginaryDragon]

Are any hybrids particularly powerful? Are they all weaker than a single class or what? I'm not familiar with them at all.

[NecroRebel]

Are any hybrids particularly powerful? Are they all weaker than a single class or what? I'm not familiar with them at all.

Hybrids have some neat tricks, but for the most part they're worse than a single-class character. The usual advice for playing a hybrid is to make sure that you know exactly what you're getting out of being a hybrid, that you can't get that by being a single class, and that that's actually worth what you lose for being a hybrid.

Generally, a hybrid isn't viable unless both classes that are hybridized together have at least the same primary stat, or, failing that, to have the primary stat of one side be the secondary of the other and vice versa. Basically, you don't want to split your stat points, because it will result in crappy accuracy and lowered damage.

Hybrids are practically always worse than a single-class character at fulfilling any particular role. Their main strength is their ability to half-fill two different roles, making them decent fifth members in a party but not really suitable as the main member for a particular role. Their ability to swing their role does make them valuable for undermanned parties, though you'd probably still just want to do without. Hybridizing two striker classes together almost never works, as the hybrid versions of strikers' damage-boosting features all specify that they work only with powers from that class (and are weaker than the single-classed versions anyway) so you deal less damage than a single-classed striker.

[Kurald Galain]

Are any hybrids particularly powerful?

The short answer is "no". The longer answer is what Necro said. Also, we forum users tend to strongly recommend against making a player's first character a hybrid.

[Yakk]

In general, Hybrids optimize for complexity efficiently, and nothing else.

A Hybrid character at the same level of optimization will be *weaker* than a non-Hybrid character, and almost always more complex in both build and turn-by-turn action choices.

It is only the most extreme single-class optimization levels that a Hybrid cannot match: the Hybrid build needs *more* optimization to reach the same power level as the single-class build, but because there is a whole spectrum of optimization out there, this is generally possible.

I would advise a Hybrid only (A) you have system mastery already (you find building a level 16-30 character who can reliably one-round an even level monster to be the work of 15 minutes to an hour (and copy/paste someone else's build doesn't count), or similar levels of system mastery), (B) you like extra complexity in your game play and (C) you can find a Hybrid combination that either works, or tickles your funny bone.

As an alternative, you can find someone with that level of system mastery to help you build a hybrid.

Be aware that at that point, your goal should be building a character to match the power level of the other PCs, and that optimization is the art of constraining your choice (you can optimize anything, but every choice that isn't free to optimize reduces the power level of the result), because building 'the most powerful character ever' in 4e gets almost as bad as 3e at this point (as an example of extreme 4e optimization: the dominator who has a 99.9%+ chance to dominate almost the entire enemy force before they act (everything in a 6x6 area I think?), and the domination basically lasts forever -- or the ping-pong never-hit missile killer, or similar ridiculousness).

Hybrids can require lots of such work, and the result (if done well) is a reasonably strong contributor to a group.

Hybrids done casually generally result in an unplayable character -- both incompetent, and played full of misunderstanding about how the character *actually* works by the player. With a bit more system mastery, you just end up with a sub-par character, capable of doing two roles poorly.

[Perseus]

I haven't been keeping up on the errata recently (been playing other systems for the past year) but I generally find hybrids to be a fun way to screw around with character creation that reminds of 3.5 multiclassing.

My first hybrid was a warlord/sorcerer "red mage", the stats lined up perfectly and things fell into place. I was lucky as all hell haha.

Though if you are normally an optimizer and want a challenge then this can be for you. Also if you are playing in a game and want more of a challenge (or everyone else doesn't optimize but you normally do) you can take two classes that don't work together and find a way to make them work.

[windgate]

Hybrids can become fairly powerful and result in some unexpected synergies. However you need to really understand what you are doing and why you are doing it. Ask yourself:

Do the benefits of the hybrid outweigh the penalties? Would this build be better off with multi-classing, or simply renaming some things?

There are circumstances where a hybrid is stronger than the base class: (Swordmage/warlock, Cavalier/??, and Sentinel/??? come to mind) however these are the exceptions and not the rule.

[vasharanpaladin]

Barbarian|anything is strictly better than straight barbarian. Especially if the second class offers multiattack powers (read: fighter, warden) or armor jacking (cleric).

Executioner|Striker with MBA at-will is strictly better than straight executioner.

Warlord|any Leader is strictly better than any non-Warlord.

As mentioned above, however, it's rather easy to screw this up.

[georgie_leech]

Barbarian|anything is strictly better than straight barbarian. Especially if the second class offers multiattack powers (read: fighter, warden) or armor jacking (cleric).

Executioner|Striker with MBA at-will is strictly better than straight executioner.

Warlord|any Leader is strictly better than any non-Warlord.

As mentioned above, however, it's rather easy to screw this up.

I like Barbarian|Rogue, using the Hybrid Talent to pick up Brutal Scoundrel. It's not the most powerful, but the Str/Dex set up works decently, and I love the image of the sneaky rogue screaming "SNEAK ATTACK!!!!" as he charges into the fray.

[Nightgaun7]

Barbarian|anything is strictly better than straight barbarian. Especially if the second class offers multiattack powers (read: fighter, warden) or armor jacking (cleric).
...
Warlord|any Leader is strictly better than any non-Warlord.


What's the deal with these two?

[vasharanpaladin]

What's the deal with these two?

For the first, multiple attacks are the order of the day. Each time you land an attack, you deal whatever static modifiers you have to damage. More attacks = more better, for all Strikers.

Barbarians are natively screwed by this. They get no access to multiattack powers at early levels and their off-action attacks are few and far between. Also, their dailies, while flavorful, are mostly bad.

Hybriding warden or fighter gets you a multiattack encounter power as early as level 3 (level 1 for hybrid fighter) and allows you to ignore all but one rage daily that you are, unfortunately, forced by the system to take.

Hybrid rogue, mentioned above, is unorthodox, but can be similarly effective due to the rogue's selection of off-action attack powers.

For the second, warlords are like bacon. There is practically nothing that is not improved by the addition of hybrid warlord, especially among Leader classes. CharOp (http://community.wizards.com/forums/103451) can probably explain this phenomenon better than I, though.

...Speaking of which, should probably add the disclaimer: The above post was written under CharOp's rather more strict metric, as opposed to casual play.

[Nightgaun7]

For the first, multiple attacks are the order of the day. Each time you land an attack, you deal whatever static modifiers you have to damage. More attacks = more better, for all Strikers.

Barbarians are natively screwed by this. They get no access to multiattack powers at early levels and their off-action attacks are few and far between. Also, their dailies, while flavorful, are mostly bad.

Hybriding warden or fighter gets you a multiattack encounter power as early as level 3 (level 1 for hybrid fighter) and allows you to ignore all but one rage daily that you are, unfortunately, forced by the system to take.

Hybrid rogue, mentioned above, is unorthodox, but can be similarly effective due to the rogue's selection of off-action attack powers.


I just made a barbarian for a game, but he's a charger so multi-attacks are less of a concern (although still good, of course) and it's true they don't have many.

Actually, now I'm curious.

Swift Charge is a free action when an enemy is reduced to zero.
I took the Mariner theme for campaign usefulness and thematics so that's giving up the hit you usually get from Guardian or some other theme.
Curtain of Steel is a mean one.
Rampage will give you the occasional free hit, although it's a bit sad since you only get it once every 20 times or so (unless you expand your crit range, and even then it's not that often)
The rest of them come from gear, and so don't really count.
And none of them are minors.

It would be lovely to be able to minor someone, then charge another target. But c'est la guerre. Thunderfury Rage at next level will make things much nicer.



For the second, warlords are like bacon. There is practically nothing that is not improved by the addition of hybrid warlord, especially among Leader classes. CharOp (http://community.wizards.com/forums/103451) can probably explain this phenomenon better than I, though.


What is it that makes it so bacony? The power selection?

[MeeposFire]

If I recall correctly barbarians get a multiattack at level 3 with thundering howl or something similar and have an off turn attack at level 7. The big benefits to barbarians are that you can improve their daily power selection (rages and the like are not that great on the whole) and possibly get a a better attack power at level one. Depending on your barbarian type it may also help them with AC (cleric and sorcerer are the more common ways of doing that).


It may be a slight exaggeration to say that every leader is improved with hybrid warlord but it is true that hybrid warlord is always a possibility that works. Warlord power selection is so good and versatile that it works even if you don't use strength. This allows for maximum flexibility in build usage and since they are also powerful you can often find an excellent warlord power to cover any holes your leader class may have powerwise. You do lose out on a use of your healing powers per encounter at higher levels though a warlord can take a feat to remedy this (granted you would still be behind standard warlords that took the same feat).

There are other good hybrid combos such as the warlock|Paladin. IT is powerful and has great synergy however it does have one weakness in that it needs to use a lot of minor actions early in an encounter which can at times be very annoying to deal with. It can get some nasty catch 22s and even double or triple punishments for enemies violating your mark.

[Nightgaun7]

If I recall correctly barbarians get a multiattack at level 3 with thundering howl or something similar and have an off turn attack at level 7. The big benefits to barbarians are that you can improve their daily power selection (rages and the like are not that great on the whole) and possibly get a a better attack power at level one. Depending on your barbarian type it may also help them with AC (cleric and sorcerer are the more common ways of doing that).

With the barbarian I'm playing my MC feat right now is Fighter and I may very well swap some of his powers for Fighter ones in the future. On the bright side, you can always use Rage powers to fuel Rage Strike.



There are other good hybrid combos such as the warlock|Paladin. IT is powerful and has great synergy however it does have one weakness in that it needs to use a lot of minor actions early in an encounter which can at times be very annoying to deal with. It can get some nasty catch 22s and even double or triple punishments for enemies violating your mark.

I've been working on that exact combination for my first hybrid and yeah, the minor action use seems like it will be intense. Not really sure how to mitigate it, beyond relying on Divine Sanction and taking powers that spread Curse.

[captpike]

I've been working on that exact combination for my first hybrid and yeah, the minor action use seems like it will be intense. Not really sure how to mitigate it, beyond relying on Divine Sanction and taking powers that spread Curse.

I have an epic swordmage|warlock who has the same problems.

the only way around the problem is find a way to break the action economy, find ways to move without using a move action, mark or curse without using a minor action ect.

a good place to start would be with a Shadowrift Blade in your main hand and an incisive dagger in your offhand. (though you have to be low paragon to get them) this means you can hit a target, teleport as a free action, then mark and curse.

there are other things, if you wanted to message me or start a new thread so we don't derail this one.

[allonym]

I like to think of hybrids as having 4 rough levels of power.

The worst would be the "strictly worse" category, where the two classes have no stat synergy and generally don't work together, so you end up being a mess with lower stats and nothing to show for it. This is what we mean when we tell people not to hybrid unless they know what they're doing.

The next would be the "alternating" category, where the two classes at least work well together in terms of stats, but they don't have much synergy. You lose some class features and on each turn, you choose which of your classes to "be", basically being a worse, but still playable, version of that class for the turn. All you get is situational flexibility. This is still a bad idea, and what the "expected" result of hybriding would be, but at least it's playable.

Then you have "synergistic", which is the sweet spot. These combinations work well together, and have specific tricks that neither class could pull off by themselves, or have the ability to mix the abilities of the two classes. A warlock|paladin is like this, as is a blackguard|skald. This is basically what hybrids should be like, but these builds tend to be difficult to get right, feat-intensive, and complex to play correctly. This would be the kind of builds myself and Tegu try to come up with. The fact that they are also hard to play is why simply picking up a hybrid build that someone else has made online can be a bad idea.

Then you have the rare "strictly better" category. I suggest banning or houseruling certain combinations which are just better than a member of their original classes. Combinations like executioner|blackguard or executioner|avenger, while they make better strikers than the base executioner, are generally fine because the base class needs help. Combinations like str-cleric|melee-ranger and cleric|barbarian, however, are not - if a build is strictly better than a 2-blade ranger or a barbarian, something is wrong. Battle Cleric's Lore is a common offender here.

(I houserule BCL to require Chain Proficiency before you can take it - I am also tempted to say that it requires your Hybrid Talent)

[Elkreeal]

Some hybrids in my opinion can be a lot better than other single classes.

The Paladin|Warlock can have good damage and mark punishment usage or it can have good/damaging at-wills (Eldritch Strike being at epic 2[w] + 3d10) and everything else almost makes them an above average controller (if one picks Cha as the only main stat).

One of my favorite combinations is the Ranger/Barbarian Two weapon fighter, but putting the hybrid talent on barbarian agility and then MC into spiked-chain training. You can then use that weapon with the best things to have as your bread and butter, twin strike and howling strike. Getting Swift Blade Style will help a long way with dpr, at low paragon you'll be doing average of 35+ damage per turn with little to no effort with an at-will. You can get to do this once per encounter in one turn with no action point (at least with the character I made): 8d4+2d8+50 or with an action point and the use a daily it can be: 20d4+2d8+64

[Kurald Galain]

at low paragon you'll be doing average of 35+ damage per turn with little to no effort with an at-will.

Sure, but that's not an extremely high number of low paragon tier. It's not low either, but if your point was that a hybrid striker would do more damage than a single-class barb or ranger, then your numbers don't support that.

[captpike]

Sure, but that's not an extremely high number of low paragon tier. It's not low either, but if your point was that a hybrid striker would do more damage than a single-class barb or ranger, then your numbers don't support that.

there are very few striker|striker builds that are better then just optimizing one of your base classes.

blackguard|executioner would be one of them, ranger|rouge would be another (combining minor action attacks) I dont know offhand of another

[Tegu8788]

I have a link in my signature to a chart full of hybrids that work at a least functional level.

Pretty much everything else that has been said I would second, or third as the case may be. Especially Allonym's power levels.

"strictly worse" are about 70% of hybrids.
"alternating" are about 20% of hybrids.
"synergistic" are about 8% of hybrids.
"strictly better" are about 2% of hybrids.

*These are rough numbers with no factual support but vague impressions and personal build attempts.*

[vasharanpaladin]

there are very few striker|striker builds that are better then just optimizing one of your base classes.

blackguard|executioner would be one of them, ranger|rouge would be another (combining minor action attacks) I dont know offhand of another

Executioner|avenger (Overwhelming Strike + Power of Skill) or executioner|warlock (Eldritch Strike) come immediately to mind. The point is to have an in-class weapon at-will that functions as an MBA, to get the benefits of both Attack Finesse and the second class's feature. Avenger build further doesn't care about its encounter and daily powers (only wants Fury's Advance and Relentless Stride, both at e3), while I've never quite got the hang of the warlock version.

As for Thundering Howl, this one would like to point out the difference between multiple attacks and multiple damage instances. This power is one of the latter and most of CharOp's tricks may not fly at the table for it, whereas a multiattack power like Hack and Hew or Rain of Blows (which the barbarian|fighter takes at the same level) works exactly how it says it does.

But beside the point, this one's opinion has changed quite a bit since playing this game for the first time. Play what you want to play, what you find fun. My fun happens to come from playing a character that's effective at his/her stated role in play, which is why I tend to parrot CharOp's advice.

...And don't get me wrong, I have a non-hybrid barbarian too, just not the ability to play for quite awhile. :smallbiggrin:

[Elkreeal]

Sure, but that's not an extremely high number of low paragon tier. It's not low either, but if your point was that a hybrid striker would do more damage than a single-class barb or ranger, then your numbers don't support that.

No, that was not my point, I was listing a functional hybrid made out of things that no-one ever says is a good idea to do. A striker|striker that works better at damage than say, the vampire, assassin or even the monk and avenger by themselves, and with little to no optimization, so yeah the number might be lowish, but I was implying nothing was done to try and make it higher.

[Tegu8788]

The problem is, even with the hybrid, the Executioner still falls behind other classes eventually. I was comparing my Conlock|Executioner completely focused on that sweet Eldritch Strike, boosting Curse damage and MBA items. And a Slayer blew him out of the water, in every way.

I used a Skald|Executioner, and the Barbarian in the party could rip him a new one. My Nova didn't match his at-will damage, though charge-cheese may have contributed to that.

[captpike]

The problem is, even with the hybrid, the Executioner still falls behind other classes eventually. I was comparing my Conlock|Executioner completely focused on that sweet Eldritch Strike, boosting Curse damage and MBA items. And a Slayer blew him out of the water, in every way.

I used a Skald|Executioner, and the Barbarian in the party could rip him a new one. My Nova didn't match his at-will damage, though charge-cheese may have contributed to that.

the only reason hybrid Executioner is good is becuase you can add the d8's to any basic, so a Executioner|X is an X that does more damage on basics. that works with some classes (like blackguards) some it does not

[Tegu8788]

The Warlock has Eldritch Strike for an MBA, and the Skald (while not double dipping striker features) revolves around basic attacks. Blackguards get Virtuous Strike when they hybridize, and several classes can use feats to make powers into MBAs.

[vasharanpaladin]

the only reason hybrid Executioner is good is becuase you can add the d8's to any basic, so a Executioner|X is an X that does more damage on basics. that works with some classes (like blackguards) some it does not

Yes, I explained that already. :smallconfused:

[ImaginaryDragon]

Well I can't think of anything a hybrid offers that other classes can't do myself, and since I can't I probably shouldn't bother with them.

[captpike]

Well I can't think of anything a hybrid offers that other classes can't do myself, and since I can't I probably shouldn't bother with them.

good call, a good rule of thumb with hybrids is to only make one if that is the best or only way to do what you want, if you cant think of a good reason to make one dont.

[Nod_Hero]

Some hybrids in my opinion can be a lot better than other single classes.
One of my favorite combinations is the Ranger/Barbarian Two weapon fighter, but putting the hybrid talent on barbarian agility and then MC into spiked-chain training.

Do you have an example of this build posted up anywhere?

[Elkreeal]

I didn't mean to say this was better than the barbarian or ranger on their own, just better than other strikers for example.

Here it is, works with a rather good Twin Strike and near godly Howling Strike.
Cruhorn Wyvernjakk, level 11
Half-Orc, Barbarian|Ranger
Hybrid Ranger: Hybrid Ranger Reflex
Hybrid Talent: Barbarian Armored Agility
Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 23, Con 11, Dex 22, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 10, Dex 17, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 8.


AC: 29 Fort: 26 Reflex: 27 Will: 19
HP: 86 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +15, Endurance +11, Athletics +15, Acrobatics +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, History +4, Insight +6, Intimidate +6, Nature +6, Perception +6, Religion +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +10

FEATS
Level 1: Spiked Chain Training
Level 2: Hybrid Talent
Level 4: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 6: Swift Blade Style
Level 8: Lethal Hunter
Level 10: Weapon Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 11: Charging Rampage

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Twin Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Howling Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Off-Hand Strike
Hybrid daily 1: Swift Panther Rage
Hybrid utility 2: Invigorating Stride
Hybrid encounter 3: Shatterbone Strike
Hybrid daily 5: Two-Wolf Pounce
Hybrid utility 6: Combat Surge
Hybrid encounter 7: Ruffling Sting
Hybrid daily 9: Attacks on the Run
Hybrid utility 10: Blood of the Fallen

ITEMS
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Magic Earthhide Armor +3, Horned Helm (heroic tier), Badge of the Berserker +3, Boots of Adept Charging (heroic tier), Thundergod Spiked chain +3, Vanguard Spiked gauntlet +3

Edit: next feat is Mounted Combat and buying a Celestial Charger is top priority.

[Nod_Hero]

Thanks much!
I'm on the lookout for "unusual and fun" builds and this one definitely seems to fit the bill.

[Rhaegar14]

This might be slightly off-topic, but the Paladin|Warlock is one I don't get from a theoretical perspective (I've never seen it in play). People always say it functions as a competent tank and does a lot of damage. My problems with that claim are as follows:

1) It's starving for minor actions, especially early in combat, which can bring it back to the old 3.5 problem of not being able to move and attack in the same turn.
2) Divine Challenge is gimped, and if you're handing out Sanctions you're not using damaging powers.
3) Warlocks don't do that much damage in the first place.

Can somebody shed some light on this for me?

[NecroRebel]

This might be slightly off-topic, but the Paladin|Warlock is one I don't get from a theoretical perspective (I've never seen it in play). People always say it functions as a competent tank and does a lot of damage. My problems with that claim are as follows:

1) It's starving for minor actions, especially early in combat, which can bring it back to the old 3.5 problem of not being able to move and attack in the same turn.
2) Divine Challenge is gimped, and if you're handing out Sanctions you're not using damaging powers.
3) Warlocks don't do that much damage in the first place.

Can somebody shed some light on this for me?

The main idea is to take powers that either outright prevent the target from attacking the user (particularly with Eyebite, making the user invisible to the target) or that punish the target if they attack the user in the next round. Be Cha-based, of course, and your Divine Challenge isn't gimped as badly as it might seem. That way, your target is either compelled to violate your mark, taking significant bonus damage, or has the choice between violating your mark and triggering your other punishment power, again taking significant bonus damage.

If you do the math, you find that a Paladin (most Defenders, really) whose mark is consistently violated will deal more damage per round than most Strikers. Force violations, and your DPR goes way up.

[Tegu8788]

And while the Sanction is more powerful than the Challenge, the Challenge can also be used with cursed targets to use Crimson Fire to make your curse a d10. Minor actions are intensive, but a mark, curse, and charge with eldritch strike works fine. Or eyebite, which is currently the only way to play a caster defender that I'm aware of. And, worse case scenario, you take turns marking and cursing.

The primary reason it does more damage is that it gets to use both the warlock's on-turn damage and paladin off-turn damage. And both classes have access to good radiant powers, that can be boosted.

Then, mix the highest defenses in the game with defense boosting utilities, and you have yourself a very competent tank. I find few warlock powers have a real need for Int as riders (in my experience, limited as it may be), meaning you can have a true primary stat in Cha, and dump the rest into Con, making you even beefier.

Holy symbol or Pact Blade, there are built in ways to overcome the weapliment problem.

And things get even better if you're a Tiefling.

[captpike]

if your trying to both strike and defend the key is to find a way to save actions. hexer paragon path, rod of corruption, shadowrift blade, charging ect.

it takes work, and really comes together in paragon but it can work well.

[MeeposFire]

This might be slightly off-topic, but the Paladin|Warlock is one I don't get from a theoretical perspective (I've never seen it in play). People always say it functions as a competent tank and does a lot of damage. My problems with that claim are as follows:

1) It's starving for minor actions, especially early in combat, which can bring it back to the old 3.5 problem of not being able to move and attack in the same turn.
2) Divine Challenge is gimped, and if you're handing out Sanctions you're not using damaging powers.
3) Warlocks don't do that much damage in the first place.

Can somebody shed some light on this for me?

Take for instance having hellfire rebuke, avernian knight, eldritch strike, white lotus riposte, white lotus master riposte, divine sanction/challenge, paladin interrupt encounter powers, and a fighter multiclass.

If you have a target marked with your sanction/challenge and cursed (even better if you add the feats that boost the defensive and offensive utility of your curse) you can then choose to hit your target with hellish rebuke. You now have him in a NASTY catch 22.

If he attacks you he could/will eat another hellish rebuke attack, WL riposte damage, take curse damage again, and take a white lotus master riposte attack in retaliation. Remember too that you will be in plate and using a shield so your defenses will be good.

If he attacks one of your allies then he takes a bunch of penalties to hit, he gets hit by divine sanction/challenge, gets hit by the avernian knight's punishment, and you can unleash one of your many paladin encounter interrupt attacks. That is triple punishment for violating your mark and you do not have to be adjacent to do it either.

Either way the enemy has no good options.

As for challenge being gimped dealing a few less points in damage really doesn't matter much in the end. Most of its damage is based on your excellent cha mod and so the loss of a few points will not be so noticed. Remember that it was erratted to be a no action punishment just like regular paladins which helps a LOT.

You will do a lot of damage because so long as you have paladin encounter powers in place you will be doing 3 punishments if they attack an ally OR getting two attacks plus a standard riposte if they attack you. Either way you get 3-4 attacks per round not counting opportunity attacks (which you can do thanks to your at wills).


However you are correct in that it does have one flaw and that is its reliance on minor actions. It does take a lot and it is painful. It really helps if you use ways to reduce your dependency on them. Every build has a weakness and this is its weakness.

[Kurald Galain]

If he attacks you he could/will eat another hellish rebuke attack, WL riposte damage, take curse damage again, and take a white lotus master riposte attack in retaliation. Remember too that you will be in plate and using a shield so your defenses will be good.

Unfortunately for this build, WLMR has been errata'ed to no longer work on creatures marked by you.

[Dimers]

Remember that [Divine Challenge] was erratted to be a no action punishment just like regular paladins which helps a LOT.

Holy poop, I had no idea that had changed. I've been avoiding hybrid paladins for quite a while because of that.

[Nightgaun7]

Unfortunately for this build, WLMR has been errata'ed to no longer work on creatures marked by you.

I've been thinking about a Pallock...perhaps I won't point this out to my GM >_>

Unfortunately you seem to need to start a Pal'Lock at mid-paragon at least to get everything rolling properly, and we're starting off a fair bit lower than that.

[GPuzzle]

Currently I've been liking Half-Elf/Goliath/Longtooth Shifter Fighter|Invoker quite a lot, as weird as it seems. Start with powerful controlling, Eldritch Strike/MBA that has 8/7+proficiency to hit and decent armor. I only need to find a way to use a weapon as an implement and it might get really freaking good.

[Tegu8788]

I'm currently playing a Lvl 5 Pallock, started at Lvl 2, and he does perfectly fine, keeping up with our two-weapon fighter. And while he may not be optimized, it's sure a lot of fun to teleport into someone's face in full plate armor to talk about the word of god. A really fun arcane paladin, works for Corellon well.

[Rhaegar14]

Infernal Pact is not the way to go for a Pallock (or at least, not the traditional, Con-based Infernal) because then you become ridiculously MAD, with needs for high Constitution and Charisma and incentives for high Intelligence and Wisdom (and then if you throw Avernian Knight on top you benefit from high Strength for those powers). There are Charisma-based Infernal Pact powers, but Hellish Rebuke is not one of them.

[MeeposFire]

Infernal Pact is not the way to go for a Pallock (or at least, not the traditional, Con-based Infernal) because then you become ridiculously MAD, with needs for high Constitution and Charisma and incentives for high Intelligence and Wisdom (and then if you throw Avernian Knight on top you benefit from high Strength for those powers). There are Charisma-based Infernal Pact powers, but Hellish Rebuke is not one of them.

Not really paladin powers don't require int and cha will serve just fine. With plate you don't need int for AC either. Wisdom does not give you anything near enough to justify boosting it. You really only need cha and con and there are plenty of options to make that work great. Personally I trade the encounter power away on avernian knight which just leaves one daily power left wanting and that really is not that unusual with multiclass characters. I then make int my third best score. There are plenty of quality powers and feats out there for a cha/con based character fully viable without needing high int/str or wisdom.