To bump the Duskblade up a tier.

[tadkins]

One of my favorite classes in the game. The iconic sword-wielding hero with some magical ability, including but not limited to almost every Final Fantasy protagonist ever.

Truth be told I've yet to play one but I fully intend to do so next 3.5 game I can get in to.

They possess a number of pretty good spells, ranging from damage, to movement, to utility. Channeling Vampiric Touch suggests that it's pretty good at self-sustainability as well. On top of that, they get all of the knowledge skills, which lends well to Knowledge Devotion and just plain "legal metagaming".

They seem to be sitting pretty at T3, but knowing the above, are there possible ways to bump 'em up to T2?

[Eldest]

Have you tried reading the tier list (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0)?


Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

So to be clear, do you want them to have game breaking tricks (tier 2) or be good at one thing and useful at others (tier 3)?

[Fax Celestis]

Because all they do is damage.

If you want to bump it a tier, all you have to do is change the spell list from its typical list to the sorcerer/wizard list. That should make it tier 2.

[tadkins]

Have you tried reading the tier list (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0)?

Yes, I corrected my mistake.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A level of Sand Shaper will put you squarely in T3 (I consider the class right on the border), adding a decent set of buffs, summons, and BFC to your spell list.

[bekeleven]

If I wanted to buff the Duskblade I'd give them the sorc list, bard casting, or both.

If I explicitly wanted to buff them up to tier 2, I'd give them the sorc list and sorc casting.

Basically, their abilities besides casting mean nothing when compared to sorc casting. Sorc + Duskblade powers is only a little better than sorc without duskblade powers.

Maybe give them 1 fewer spell (learned + cast) per level to balance it.

[The Trickster]

Because all they do is damage.

If you want to bump it a tier, all you have to do is change the spell list from its typical list to the sorcerer/wizard list. That should make it tier 2.

Pretty much this.

Question though: Would you need to give them Sorc/Wiz progression as well for them to be T2? Or would just the list suffice? Basically, would a duskblade with only up to level 5 spells be game breaking enough to be T2?

Edit: Swordsage'd

[Fax Celestis]

Just the list should suffice. It would allow them to use completion/trigger items without UMD in addition to broadening the fundamental spells they work with all the time, and it would make a lot of the low-level toolbox spells available to sor/wiz (alter self, fly, web, dimension door, glitterdust, etc.) available.

[bekeleven]

Pretty much this.

Question though: Would you need to give them Sorc/Wiz progression as well for them to be T2? Or would just the list suffice? Basically, would a duskblade with only up to level 5 spells be game breaking enough to be T2?

Edit: Swordsage'd

Reminder: Bards, Factotums, Psywars, and Mystic Rangers are all tier 3.

Each spell level is quadratically more powerful than the last. Tier 2 is capable of breaking at least one or two facets of the game as hard as wizard, and towards high levels you can't do that if you're 4 spell levels below.

However, at mid levels, the two are a bit harder to tell apart. You can do a reasonable approximation of strategic world alteration with 4th level spells at level 13... but it's nothing on 7s.

[A_S]

Related question to the OP: In my experience, Duskblade suffers from the same tier ambiguity as the ToB classes (at least Warblade and Crusader), which is that it's kind of hard to tell whether it's really Tier 3, or just really really really high Tier 4.

That is, Duskblades aren't really good at anything but hitting stuff really, really hard. They can hit things hard in several different, interesting ways (more than a Fighter, for instance), and they have action economy shenanigans going on to allow them to hit things hard more times per round, or buff themselves (to hit harder) and then hit things hard. But at the end of the day, it's pretty much "channel damaging touch spell X" or "Disintegrate."

What would help make them fit the definition of Tier 3 more comfortably? What things would they need to have the kind of versatility you expect from a Bard, a Factotum, a Swordsage, a Beguiler, etc.?

I'm thinking expanded spell list. But I'm not sure how to make that useful without going out-of-theme. More channelable debuffs, maybe? More "utility" buffs (actual flight)? Better ranged blasting?

[6thEdition]

In my (and JaronK's) opinion, Tier 3 is the most balanced. You should, instead, try to buff up 4-6s or debuff 1-2s. Tier 3s do really good at one thing, say, combat, but they need the team to help in other things, say, stealth or talking, so that's why I thin 3 is really good. It's a team game, not solo.

[Emperor Tippy]

In my (and JaronK's) opinion, Tier 3 is the most balanced. You should, instead, try to buff up 4-6s or debuff 1-2s. Tier 3s do really good at one thing, say, combat, but they need the team to help in other things, say, stealth or talking, so that's why I thin 3 is really good. It's a team game, not solo.

Except not really. A well built Tier 3 can still pretty much solo any type of encounter. What it can't do is the big, flashy, nation shattering stuff that Tier 1&2 classes can do.

Generally if a class is just really good at one thing then it is Tier 4. Tier 3 is for generally competent classes that can do exceptionally well in a smaller niche.

[Gwendol]

Why do you want to bump them up a tier? What is the purpose/goal?

Duskblades are not unambiguously T3, since they, as others have already noted, really only are good at combat with some interesting options. Sandshaper or exalted arcanist seems like good options for adding versatility.