[3.5] True GOD in low levels.

[Yael]

Well, I am pretty aware of what the Wizard and his Tier 1 family can do (including the Erudite and the Psionic Artificer), but, at low levels, how GODish can GOD be?
I mean, by level 1st, any Barbarian could slice through the Wizard's 1d4+con/int with his 1d12 greataxe and (if not) shreds through the mage's hp; taking into account initiatives, if the Wizard starts, maybe he could sleep the barbarian, but, is that really too effective?

Through level 1st and 5th, which could be the strongest class (variants included)?

[AMFV]

Well, I am pretty aware of what the Wizard and his Tier 1 family can do (including the Erudite and the Psionic Artificer), but, at low levels, how GODish can GOD be?
I mean, by level 1st, any Barbarian could slice through the Wizard's 1d4+con/int with his 1d12 greataxe and (if not) shreds through the mage's hp; taking into account initiatives, if the Wizard starts, maybe he could sleep the barbarian, but, is that really too effective?

Through level 1st and 5th, which could be the strongest class (variants included)?

Psion Kobold

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486

As seen here it can have literally any ability in the game, and it you can imagine.

[(Un)Inspired]

Your barbarian isn't gonna get to my wizard to chop him. I'm gonna abrupt jaunt and waste your turn, then kill you on mine.

Edit: also, I'm going to win initiative with nerveskitter, my bonus improved initiative feat and my (probably) higher dex

[Raezeman]

Your barbarian isn't gonna get to my wizard to chop him. I'm gonna abrupt jaunt and waste your turn, then kill you on mine.

Edit: also, I'm going to win initiative with nerveskitter, my bonus improved initiative feat and my (probably) higher dex

Ok, not a barbarian charging in then, but what about a more stealthy enemy that caught you flat footed?

[Jeff the Green]

GOD does not kill barbarians. He buffs his fighter who then kills barbarians who have been put to sleep, dazed, enfeebled, or otherwise severely weakened.

Casters in general are force multipliers. They're better off enhancing their allies' attacks and negating their opponents' than doing their own attacking. In fact, part of the reason the GOD wizard strategy is so popular is that it is party-friendly, and doesn't result in the fighter's character being bored, frustrated, and sulking in a corner.

[AMFV]

GOD does not kill barbarians. He buffs his fighter who then kills barbarians who have been put to sleep, dazed, enfeebled, or otherwise severely weakened.

Casters in general are force multipliers. They're better off enhancing their allies' attacks and negating their opponents' than doing their own attacking. In fact, part of the reason the GOD wizard strategy is so popular is that it is party-friendly, and doesn't result in the fighter's character being bored, frustrated, and sulking in a corner.

Well True GOD is Pun Pun, since he has actual divine Ranks, at least theoretically, so he doesn't need allies at all really.

[Feint's End]

*Sigh* When will you people learn that the tier system is not about pvp but about overall versatility and power and yes at level one wizards and the t1 family still wins out over their nonmagical counterparts (although that strongly depends on your spell/power selection).

Even if it comes to PvP or PvE (with the enemy being a meatbag and/or other PC class) a Wizard still has a higher chance to come out ahead though you are right that stealthy classes can be a problem depending on your optimization level. I actually think a high optimized rogue in a living and breathing world has a pretty good chance to get a surprise round of and one shot the Wizard.

[AMFV]

*Sigh* When will you people learn that the tier system is not about pvp but about overall versatility and power and yes at level one wizards and the t1 family still wins out over their nonmagical counterparts (although that strongly depends on your spell/power selection).

Even if it comes to PvP or PvE (with the enemy being a meatbag and/or other PC class) a Wizard still has a higher chance to come out ahead though you are right that stealthy classes can be a problem depending on your optimization level. I actually think a high optimized rogue in a living and breathing world has a pretty good chance to get a surprise round of and one shot the Wizard.

Well she did ask what the most powerful class was. And Pun Pun is immune to being surprised, or snuck up on.

[(Un)Inspired]

*Sigh* When will you people learn that the tier system is not about pvp but about overall versatility and power.


What do you mean, "You people?"

[CIDE]

What do you mean, "You people?"

What do you mean, "you people"?

Also, the OP it's not exactly unknown that the casters suffer at lower levels. Not to say they're automatically weaker or going to lose. It just takes a bit more thought.

[Jeff the Green]

What do you mean, "you people"?

Also, the OP it's not exactly unknown that the casters suffer at lower levels. Not to say they're automatically weaker or going to lose. It just takes a bit more thought.

That's a function of low levels, not the class. Even your above-average barbarian will fall to ~15% of attacks from from a MMI orc (and 95% of the time from two hits), and with no magic items or immunity and only one rage per day Will SoDs are a serious danger. He doesn't fare a lot better against someone sneaky, either, with no more chance of surviving a coup de grace with a good weapon and maybe a few more ranks in perception skills than the wizard. At least he has them as class skills, though, unlike the fighter or paladin.

[Piggy Knowles]

Generally a GOD wizard doesn't refer to a wizard that can do everything, but rather a specific playstyle that focuses on manipulating the battlefield and buffing allies/debuffing enemies, to make fights extraordinarily one-sided. GOD doesn't muck around in melee, because that's not GOD's job - that's the job of the dumb schmuck who decided to spend his days learning to swing a sword rather than learning to unmake reality. It's GOD's job to make that dumb schmuck look good, and if that means all the enemies have to be lined up in an easily cleave-able row with their arms tied behind their back, while the dumb schmuck with the sword has been transmuted into a towering giant - well, so be it. Sometimes that's what it takes.

As for a GOD wizard in low levels, yeah, without TO tricks you're pretty vulnerable - just like anyone else is at low levels. Some nice things to keep in mind, however...


Charging is deadly, but charging is really easy to stop. If they don't have line of sight to you, they can't charge you. If ANYTHING impedes their path, they can't charge you. If you can move out of the way to make sure that their direct line to you is broken, then you've also broken their charge.
A stealthy attacker often relies on precision damage. You can't get precision damage against an enemy with concealment. Cloudy Conjuration is your friend.
The best defense is a good offense. Try to disable the worst enemy right off the bat and encourage your party to focus fire. Remember, a foe with 1 HP is just as dangerous as a foe with 1,000 HP, so there's no gain in diffusing your attacks.
Color spray straight up ends encounters. It should only be a last resort, because if a foe is in range for color spray, you're probably way too close to the sharp end of a pointy stick, but I can't recall ever seeing a color spray go off as a DM in the early levels and not have it dramatically change the tone of the encounter.

[strider24seven]

Gray Elf Focused Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt at 1st level has 5 1st level spells (20 INT). He takes Cloudy Conjuration as his 1st level feat and trades Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative using the Combat Wizard variant from UA.

DC 16 reflex save or prone 3/day (grease), flatfooted even if they save, and also provides concealment and sickening.

Plus 1-2 color sprays for a DC 16 will save or removed from combat. He can also prepare another spell in lieu of one of his color sprays if he needs to (blockade and mount are both excellent spells).

For rocket tag he has at least +4 Initiative (adding more DEX adds more), which is probably the best on the battlefield at first level, so he is most likely to go first.

For defenses he has Abrupt Jaunt 5/day to outright ignore five attacks or obstacles as long as he is not flatfooted.

And you have your trusty bow or crossbow to fall back on.

[Vizzerdrix]

And you have your trusty bow or crossbow to fall back on.

At low levels, acid flasks are cheep to make, and easier to hit with.

Or tanglefoot bags, eggshell grenades, screaming flasks... Just options for anyone that doesn't want to muck around with a crossbow.

[eggynack]

The best class at level one is probably the druid. It's like a god wizard smushed together with a reasonable melee combatant. The druid isn't that fragile either, so it's not the biggest point of weakness. Crazy teleporting wizard with piles of slots is pretty strong too, though I'd stick with the druid. They stay competitive for the best game slot through level five too, so that works out well enough.

[AMFV]

The best class at level one is probably the druid. It's like a god wizard smushed together with a reasonable melee combatant. The druid isn't that fragile either, so it's not the biggest point of weakness. Crazy teleporting wizard with piles of slots is pretty strong too, though I'd stick with the druid. They stay competitive for the best game slot through level five too, so that works out well enough.

The best class is Pun Pun, anything less is arbitrarily restricting power, which is what I'm trying to get across, if you're not playing Pun Pun, you are arbitrarily choosing to play at a less than maximal power level, as such best class is at best a misnomer, all of the classes are inferior. Tier 1s are versatile and useful, but best is pretty clearly the Pun Pun thing, after that what is best will deal mostly with how you decide to arbitrarily restrict yourself.

[eggynack]

The best class is Pun Pun, anything less is arbitrarily restricting power, which is what I'm trying to get across, if you're not playing Pun Pun, you are arbitrarily choosing to play at a less than maximal power level, as such best class is at best a misnomer, all of the classes are inferior. Tier 1s are versatile and useful, but best is pretty clearly the Pun Pun thing, after that what is best will deal mostly with how you decide to arbitrarily restrict yourself.
First, pun-pun isn't a class. Second, I'm pretty sure that the OP wasn't referring to ridiculous TO situations. Generally, unless the opposite is mentioned, most questions of this kind apply only to standard PO stuff, because otherwise every question is utterly pointless. It's always just pun-pun. I get it. Pun-pun is the best all the time. It's a thing that goes without saying.

[AMFV]

First, pun-pun isn't a class. Second, I'm pretty sure that the OP wasn't referring to ridiculous TO situations. Generally, unless the opposite is mentioned, most questions of this kind apply only to standard PO stuff, because otherwise every question is utterly pointless. It's always just pun-pun. I get it. Pun-pun is the best all the time. It's a thing that goes without saying.

The problem is that PO is a narrowly defined and problematic thing in the first place. Without knowing the constraints, ergo the optimization level at the table, we can't assume as to what PO would involve. So we are stuck assuming either TO or virtually no optimization. Since this was posited by the OP as a hypothetical, "my friend says that X class is best, but I say Barbarians could win, so who is really best", we have no reason to restrict ourselves to a PO scenario, since the question has no stated constraints and doesn't exist in the context of an actual game.

[eggynack]

The problem is that PO is a narrowly defined and problematic thing in the first place. Without knowing the constraints, ergo the optimization level at the table, we can't assume as to what PO would involve. So we are stuck assuming either TO or virtually no optimization. Since this was posited by the OP as a hypothetical, "my friend says that X class is best, but I say Barbarians could win, so who is really best", we have no reason to restrict ourselves to a PO scenario, since the question has no stated constraints and doesn't exist in the context of an actual game.
It's an implicit constraint in if things are otherwise unstated, because doing otherwise is utterly pointless. PO is a complicated thing to define, and is rather subjective, but it's not impossible to have some sort of shared conception of it, and pun-pun is as far outside of PO as it gets. Just ask yourself if you would expect someone to bring this into a real game, and if you wouldn't, then that's PO. It's not perfect, but it's good enough for these purposes. I mean, even most TO discussions leave out pun-pun, because what's the point of optimizing jump checks to crazy levels if pun-pun is a thing?

[AMFV]

It's an implicit constraint in if things are otherwise unstated, because doing otherwise is utterly pointless. PO is a complicated thing to define, and is rather subjective, but it's not impossible to have some sort of shared conception of it, and pun-pun is as far outside of PO as it gets. Just ask yourself if you would expect someone to bring this into a real game, and if you wouldn't, then that's PO. It's not perfect, but it's good enough for these purposes. I mean, even most TO discussions leave out pun-pun, because what's the point of optimizing jump checks to crazy levels if pun-pun is a thing?

The problem is that the OP directly asked about power levels... and that's a solved problem. The OP asked "which class is the most powerful," that is explicitly a Kobold Psion, if this was being asked in relation to a specific game, then we might have a reason to optimize for PO, but it's not this is an abstract question, which should allow the TO to be on the table.

Of course you can optimize things within a system of constraints. But... once the OP asks "who is the most powerful" if you are not at Pun Pun and TO you are arbitrarily restricting yourself and you can't appropriately answer the question because you are arbitrarily handicapping the participants. If the OP was interested in this for a game, I wouldn't recommend a TO option, but this is a theory question, so a theoretical answer is entirely appropriate.

[eggynack]

It seems kinda like a not-theory question, when the OP is discussing a greataxe wielding barbarian pitted against a sleep casting wizard. That's about as practical as it gets.

[AMFV]

It seems kinda like a not-theory question, when the OP is discussing a greataxe wielding barbarian pitted against a sleep casting wizard. That's about as practical as it gets.

It's a question intended to resolve an argument between folks about which class is the most powerful class, that's a theory question, they're not going to have a duel in game. And it doesn't involve actual characters only theoretical ones. It doesn't change the answer either, since we are looking at "the most powerful" that's really only answerable one way, otherwise we have to arbitrarily restrict our options. And any such restriction will fundamentally alter the power scale, the most powerful is only answerable if we have no restrictions or we have a very firm grasp on what those restrictions are. Since this isn't an actual game, and PO isn't exactly widely agreed on, in terms of it's breadth, it's a moot point, or the answer is Pun Pun.

If this were an actual game that might be different, but the question is framed as the result of a debate between two people, therefore the answer is either the theory question, or "it depends on your optimization level."

[eggynack]

I guess I just don't see the point. We just end up back where we started, once pun-pun inevitably becomes excluded for obvious reasons. It feels like we can just set it aside, and maybe a couple of other things of an excessively silly nature, and talk about things that aren't pun-pun. I mean, it's not like anyone's going to disagree that pun-pun kills everything, cause it does.

[AMFV]

I guess I just don't see the point. We just end up back where we started, once pun-pun inevitably becomes excluded for obvious reasons. It feels like we can just set it aside, and maybe a couple of other things of an excessively silly nature, and talk about things that aren't pun-pun. I mean, it's not like anyone's going to disagree that pun-pun kills everything, cause it does.

The problem is that then the most powerful question becomes moot, and then constraints matter and what actually constitutes PO matters quite a bit in fact, and what "most powerful" means matters. It becomes pretty much a moot point as I said, the whole problem is that without that particular thing there is no easy answer to the question. Or even arguably an answer at all, it comes down to opinion and controls over optimization itself, which are hardly functions of the classes relative "power", whatever that means.

[DarkOne-Rob]

AMFV has successfully trolled several of you...move on and ignore Pun-Pun responses, otherwise you will keep getting more of them.

To answer the original poster's question I think we need to be talking about % chances of winning, which requires details. For example, are we playing 3.5 or PF? How high is the point buy? Are we allowing all splat books or just core? Are anything traits allowed?

If someone wants to set a bar, we cans tart figuring out just how godly a given class is. Otherwise, we are just playing theoretical rocket tag...which isn't even as fun as playing rocket tag in an actual game...

[AMFV]

AMFV has successfully trolled several of you...move on and ignore Pun-Pun responses, otherwise you will keep getting more of them.

To answer the original poster's question I think we need to be talking about % chances of winning, which requires details. For example, are we playing 3.5 or PF? How high is the point buy? Are we allowing all splat books or just core? Are anything traits allowed?

If someone wants to set a bar, we cans tart figuring out just how godly a given class is. Otherwise, we are just playing theoretical rocket tag...which isn't even as fun as playing rocket tag in an actual game...

Exactly, that's my point we need to know the parameters if we're looking for a PO duel, particularly with as ambiguous a goal as "the most powerful" which could have about a million definitions. Pun Pun obviously is an answer for the problem, since he can do everything and we have no stated constraints.

But without stated constraints and a definition as to what exactly is meant by most powerful, the whole thing is moot, debatable, there is no way to resolve it without that information unless we are allowed to use Pun Pun, who is in that level unarguably the most powerful with any definition of that term.

Since we have agreed that constraints exist, we must know what they are, and how the goal is defined, since we don't either of those things... The question remains moot and cannot be answered.

[Kennisiou]

Necropolitan gray elf wizard with fairy mysteries initiate has more health than your average barbarian (equal or greater while that barbarian rages) and can easily tank a hit. d12 hitdie + int to HP instead of con.

[AMFV]

Necropolitan gray elf wizard with fairy mysteries initiate has more health than your average barbarian (equal or greater while that barbarian rages) and can easily tank a hit. d12 hitdie + int to HP instead of con.

Not attainable at 1st level though. Also Faerie Mysteries Initiate is from Dragon which isn't normally accepted. As you can see without knowing the exact constraints we're operating under it's not really a feasible challenge.

Edit: Furthermore, the most Hit Points isn't really what I would call "the most powerful", since we have no end point we can't really rule on that either, it's not a workable challenge without constraints and a set goal.

[Slipperychicken]

GOD does not kill barbarians. He buffs his fighter who then kills barbarians.

This is how GOD rolls.

[AMFV]

This is how GOD rolls.

Well that's how the God Wizard does, although it's not exactly discernable if he's "the most powerful" without a clear definition of what that means.

[Dalebert]

What do you mean, "You people?"

He means a particular racial minority. Pick whichever one will result in the most offense for the particular individual. :smallbiggrin:

[Particle_Man]

Ok, I will arbitrarily put in a restriction:

PHB only for the PCs (since the standard argument is that wizards are tier 1 right from the PHB, I feel justified). DMG and MM only for the DM.

Take 3 parties vs. up to 32 bog-standard MM orcs, coming out conveniently in pairs from trees at 60 feet distance (the point at which initiative is rolled for each battle), exactly 2 hours apart (to allow the party to rest a bit, but if they move, then wherever they are 2 hours later, there will be orcs, and they will emerge from the nearby rocks, trees, etc., 60' away).

Party a) is composed of 4 wizards.

Party b) is composed of 2 wizards and 2 barbarians.

Party c) is composed of 4 barbarians.

Which party survives the longest, on average?

Edit: The party is level 1 and has 0 xp,

[Piggy Knowles]

At what level?

At any level from 5 and above and below 15, I would almost certainly pick party B. At level 15 and above, I'd go with party A, and below level 5, I'd pick party C. While a wizard has encounter-breaking options before level 5, it doesn't have them indefinitely, and doesn't have any game changing 24-hour buffs yet either.

[AMFV]

At what level?

At any level from 5 and above and below 15, I would almost certainly pick party B. At level 15 and above, I'd go with party A, and below level 5, I'd pick party C. While a wizard has encounter-breaking options before level 5, it doesn't have them indefinitely, and doesn't have any game changing 24-hour buffs yet either.

They do have Rope Trick though and can enforce a 15 minute adventuring day, especially with four of them to cast it.

[Augmental]

The OP asked "which class is the most powerful," that is explicitly a Kobold Psion,

Kobold Psion is a class-race combo, not a class. Pun-Pun isn't a class, either; it's a build.

[Particle_Man]

Level 1. 0 xp, in fact.

[squarecircle]

The best class is one that's intelligently played.

If you have a Whirling Frenzy Pounce Barbarian go up against a Wizard that has a love affair with Magic Missiles, the wizard is dead. .

If you have a TWF Barbarian with Combat Expertise go up against a Wizard with Grease, Colour Spray and Summon Monster, the barbarian is toast.

The player trumps the class, in all cases.

[AMFV]

Kobold Psion is a class-race combo, not a class. Pun-Pun isn't a class, either; it's a build.

If you play a Psion and don't play Pun Pun then you are handicapping yourself, that's just how that is. Any discussions of abject power have to take that into effect, since you can't have a player handicapping themselves and still have the results be worth anything.


The best class is one that's intelligently played.

If you have a Whirling Frenzy Pounce Barbarian go up against a Wizard that has a love affair with Magic Missiles, the wizard is dead. .

If you have a TWF Barbarian with Combat Expertise go up against a Wizard with Grease, Colour Spray and Summon Monster, the barbarian is toast.

The player trumps the class, in all cases.

In my experience that is definitely the deciding factor. At least in actual play.

[6thEdition]

Ok, I will arbitrarily put in a restriction:

PHB only for the PCs (since the standard argument is that wizards are tier 1 right from the PHB, I feel justified). DMG and MM only for the DM.

Take 3 parties vs. up to 32 bog-standard MM orcs, coming out conveniently in pairs from trees at 60 feet distance (the point at which initiative is rolled for each battle), exactly 2 hours apart (to allow the party to rest a bit, but if they move, then wherever they are 2 hours later, there will be orcs, and they will emerge from the nearby rocks, trees, etc., 60' away).

Party a) is composed of 4 wizards.

Party b) is composed of 2 wizards and 2 barbarians.

Party c) is composed of 4 barbarians.

Which party survives the longest, on average?

Edit: The party is level 1 and has 0 xp,

B at L1 - 3, A at 4+. Fly + Melf's acid arrow for the win, quoting JaronK.

[Heliomance]

The problem is that the OP directly asked about power levels... and that's a solved problem. The OP asked "which class is the most powerful," that is explicitly a Kobold Psion, if this was being asked in relation to a specific game, then we might have a reason to optimize for PO, but it's not this is an abstract question, which should allow the TO to be on the table.

Of course you can optimize things within a system of constraints. But... once the OP asks "who is the most powerful" if you are not at Pun Pun and TO you are arbitrarily restricting yourself and you can't appropriately answer the question because you are arbitrarily handicapping the participants. If the OP was interested in this for a game, I wouldn't recommend a TO option, but this is a theory question, so a theoretical answer is entirely appropriate.

Since when was Pun-Pun a psion? The level 5 version was a Master of Many Forms, the level 1 version can be any class with Knowledge (The Planes) or Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill, but is a Paladin by preference. Also, he no longer needs to start out as a kobold.

[AMFV]

Since when was Pun-Pun a psion? The level 5 version was a Master of Many Forms, the level 1 version can be any class with Knowledge (The Planes) or Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill, but is a Paladin by preference. Also, he no longer needs to start out as a kobold.

The version I linked is a Psion, actually, I think they used the Sage Psicrystal to make the knowledge check, you can potentially fail it as a Paladin.

[Heliomance]

However, Pazuzu is canonically far more likely to grant his Wish to a Paladin, as he enjoys making them fall.

[AMFV]

However, Pazuzu is canonically far more likely to grant his Wish to a Paladin, as he enjoys making them fall.

True but if you don't know he exists and can grant wishes and that he appears when his name is called three times it doesn't help much. I don't believe that Paladins can make that Knowledge check without a lot of work.

[Slipperychicken]

True but if you don't know he exists and can grant wishes and that he appears when his name is called three times it doesn't help much. I don't believe that Paladins can make that Knowledge check without a lot of work.

It does take some building to reach the necessary Knowledge (Religion) check to automatically work at level 1, but it works. My google-fu has failed me for how exactly a Human Paladin would do it, but I'll try to replicate something plausible for you.

You need to hit a DC 25 to know about Pazuzu, so you only need a +15 to the check, and then you can Take 10.

Intelligence 20 (17 + 3 venerable) = +5
4 Ranks in Know(Religion) = +4
Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion)) = +3
Masterwork Tool (it works by RAW, say it's a guidebook or something)= +2
Education feat (Yeah, I'm not even trying at this point) = +1


5 + 4 + 3 +2 +1 +10 (from taking 10)= 25

Ta daa!

[Piggy Knowles]

Pun Pun began as a level 12 psion with Metamorphic Transfer. The other builds, including the wizard builds, the divine minion MoMF builds and the level 1 Pazazu-din, all came later in an effort to get the main trick online faster.

[broodax]

B at L1 - 3, A at 4+. Fly + Melf's acid arrow for the win, quoting JaronK.

Surviving for the longest, there is no difference between a and b because:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silentImage.htm

They can both survive nearly an infinite amount of time, thanks to the wizard.

[Pickford]

This is how I imagine the Pun-Pun Wizard and Barbarian encounter going:

Wizard: I make my knowledge check and summon Pazuzu by saying his name three times.
*Pazuzu Appears*
Pazuzu: I will grant you any wish Mortal.
Wizard: I seek unlimited cosmic power!
Barbarian: Wait, so I just saw you say the word Pazuzu three times and this demon appeared granting you a wish?
Pazuzu: Your wish is gra..
Barbarian: Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu!
*Pazuzu disappears from next to the wizard and reappears next to the Barbarian*
Pazuzu: nt...Uh...hello mortal, I will grant you any wish you des..*Pazuzu puffs out of existence*

Wizard2: Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu!
Pazuzu: ire...What in the nine hells is going on?
Wizard2: I seek unlimited cosmic power!
Pazuzu: Now see here, I *poof!*

Wizard3: Pazuzu!
Pazuzu: Demand that you stop...oh hell. *poof*

...

Wizard number infinity: Pazuzu!

Meanwhile, back at the ranch:

*Barbarian finishes cleaning wizard blood off his axe*

[AMFV]

This is how I imagine the Pun-Pun Wizard and Barbarian encounter going:

Wizard: I make my knowledge check and summon Pazuzu by saying his name three times.
*Pazuzu Appears*
Pazuzu: I will grant you any wish Mortal.
Wizard: I seek unlimited cosmic power!
Barbarian: Wait, so I just saw you say the word Pazuzu three times and this demon appeared granting you a wish?
Pazuzu: Your wish is gra..
Barbarian: Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu!
*Pazuzu disappears from next to the wizard and reappears next to the Barbarian*
Pazuzu: nt...Uh...hello mortal, I will grant you any wish you des..*Pazuzu puffs out of existence*

Wizard2: Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu!
Pazuzu: ire...What in the nine hells is going on?
Wizard2: I seek unlimited cosmic power!
Pazuzu: Now see here, I *poof!*

Wizard3: Pazuzu!
Pazuzu: Demand that you stop...oh hell. *poof*

...

Wizard number infinity: Pazuzu!

Meanwhile, back at the ranch:

*Barbarian finishes cleaning wizard blood off his axe*

That's not actually an in combat thing you do it before, when nobody's looking also you can't just wish for unlimited cosmic power, you wish for a candle of invocation, since that's safe.


It does take some building to reach the necessary Knowledge (Religion) check to automatically work at level 1, but it works. My google-fu has failed me for how exactly a Human Paladin would do it, but I'll try to replicate something plausible for you.

You need to hit a DC 25 to know about Pazuzu, so you only need a +15 to the check, and then you can Take 10.

Intelligence 20 (17 + 3 venerable) = +5
4 Ranks in Know(Religion) = +4
Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion)) = +3
Masterwork Tool (it works by RAW, say it's a guidebook or something)= +2
Education feat (Yeah, I'm not even trying at this point) = +1


5 + 4 + 3 +2 +1 +10 (from taking 10)= 25

Ta daa!

That does work, although only if you can take 10 on knowledge checks, which has been a point of some debate, the version I linked and the others I've seen have involved Psions though. The Paladin might just be a newer one.

[Pickford]

That's not actually an in combat thing you do it before, when nobody's looking also you can't just wish for unlimited cosmic power, you wish for a candle of invocation, since that's safe.

If there's only one Pazuzu, and there are infinite people capable of summoning him, then there are also infinite people actively trying to summon him.

Therefore, he would (approaching a probability of 1, or absolute certainty) vanish immediately, before a wish could be voiced.

[Slipperychicken]

That's not actually an in combat thing you do it before, when nobody's looking also you can't just wish for unlimited cosmic power, you wish for a candle of invocation, since that's safe.


Yeah, Pun-Pun is presumed to do the whole pazuzu thing in relative safety.



That does work, although only if you can take 10 on knowledge checks, which has been a point of some debate, the version I linked and the others I've seen have involved Psions though. The Paladin might just be a newer one.

Even if you can't Take 10 (I haven't seen any indication for that btw), then you just put some extra cheese into the build and bring the modifier to +24.



Therefore, he would (approaching a probability of 1, or absolute certainty) vanish immediately, before a wish could be voiced.

Inb4 talking is a free action.

[eggynack]

If there's only one Pazuzu, and there are infinite people capable of summoning him, then there are also infinite people actively trying to summon him.

Therefore, he would (approaching a probability of 1, or absolute certainty) vanish immediately, before a wish could be voiced.
Your argument has the faulty premise that there are infinite people capable of summoning him. First, there is the knowledge problem, which acts as a reasonable deterrent to a large segment of the population. Second, there is the population problem, because a lot of people isn't the same as infinite people. Third, you have the problem of limited usage. Even if everyone knew about Pazuzu, you can only approach him in a costless manner a limited number of times, and even then only if you are a being of particular type. Wishing for the candle seems to take a small amount of time, so the chances that your tiny interval would intersect with another's tiny interval is minimal. For all of these reasons, the chances are very low that there would be an infinite stream of pazuzu summonings.

[Osiris]

Generally a GOD wizard doesn't refer to a wizard that can do everything, but rather a specific playstyle that focuses on manipulating the battlefield and buffing allies/debuffing enemies, to make fights extraordinarily one-sided. GOD doesn't muck around in melee, because that's not GOD's job - that's the job of the dumb schmuck who decided to spend his days learning to swing a sword rather than learning to unmake reality. It's GOD's job to make that dumb schmuck look good, and if that means all the enemies have to be lined up in an easily cleave-able row with their arms tied behind their back, while the dumb schmuck with the sword has been transmuted into a towering giant - well, so be it. Sometimes that's what it takes.

As for a GOD wizard in low levels, yeah, without TO tricks you're pretty vulnerable - just like anyone else is at low levels. Some nice things to keep in mind, however...


Charging is deadly, but charging is really easy to stop. If they don't have line of sight to you, they can't charge you. If ANYTHING impedes their path, they can't charge you. If you can move out of the way to make sure that their direct line to you is broken, then you've also broken their charge.
A stealthy attacker often relies on precision damage. You can't get precision damage against an enemy with concealment. Cloudy Conjuration is your friend.
The best defense is a good offense. Try to disable the worst enemy right off the bat and encourage your party to focus fire. Remember, a foe with 1 HP is just as dangerous as a foe with 1,000 HP, so there's no gain in diffusing your attacks.
Color spray straight up ends encounters. It should only be a last resort, because if a foe is in range for color spray, you're probably way too close to the sharp end of a pointy stick, but I can't recall ever seeing a color spray go off as a DM in the early levels and not have it dramatically change the tone of the encounter.


Everything you just said here is fantastic. If you're asking 'Which is better between levels 1-5, wizard or barbarian?' then it depends. Wizards are squishy, but a color spray wins encounters. With cloudy conjuration, or even better silent image (can't hit what you don't see), you won't be hit. Silent image right up to the guy and color spray his face off. You won. The end.