"Well with 18 base int"....

[Ranting Fool]

A question for the Forum as a whole. What stats do you see/give NPC's because the last 9 out of 10 threads I've read assume that people have maxed out key stats (int for wizards ect) which makes sense from a crunch point of view and even from a slightly fluffy point of view (Typical mad wizard type is both weak, and not good at talking to people but very very brainy)

I can not remember where it says but I remember that the DMG says that NPC's have the "Elite Array" 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8.
and you can roll stats (more dice taking away lowest for higher campaigns)
or point which my players like best.

Do your NPC's have the same stats as PC's?

[JaronK]

My NPCs use the normal 10's array if they're just random helpers, and Elite array if they're special. Often I use the DMG examples for making them. That's about it.

JaronK

[(Un)Inspired]

If an npc is important I will build them the same way I buid a PC, ability score point buy included.

[hymer]

For the occasional very important NPC, I assign stats as I feel they ought to have them - and that would mean they are superior to the elite array.
For 95% or so of NPCs, I do the same as JaronK. Standard or elite array. I don't have the patience to agonize over bit-part NPCs' abilities.

[Khedrac]

I use Elite Array if they have classes (as per Monster Manual), but for *special* characters - recurring, big bads etc, then I will use a point buy closer to (or even more than) the players.

[Passive Pete]

My NPCs use the normal 10's array if they're just random helpers, and Elite array if they're special. Often I use the DMG examples for making them. That's about it.

JaronK

Yeah, unless they're an NPC that's important to the party, I usually assume that they're some fart that thinks they can fight PCs, and stick 'em with pretty sucky stats. They should kinda excel at one thing though. Maybe one 14 or something.

[pwykersotz]

I assign them based on personality and capability, doing it off the cuff. "This character has anemia, so she would have a 7 con, but she's a savant high level wizard, so 28 int. Strength is on the low side but not pitiful, so 9 Str, and she's only moderately quick so 12 Dex. Haughty and unable to reliably convince others of her views, so 12 Cha, and fairly well discerning with 15 Wis.

Basically, I choose by intuition. It tends to work fairly well, as long as I double check myself to verify I haven't made a broken character by accident.

[Generation83]

Depends a lot, but most often I give npc's the elites arrays and a few levels. Lvl 1 commener and 2 lvl guards with different stats are much more fun and have a lot more character than oceans of lvl 1 guards with 10 in all stats.

Sometimes when I need special npc's, then I give then the stats they need. Do I need a ugly beggar, thief with bad social skills, then he gets 6 and 8 in charisma and wisdom.

[Psyren]

NPC codex has a literal pile of pre-statted NPCs (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/npcCodex/npc/index.html) (all of which are free to use.) So if I need a guard-captain, barmaid, footpad or mayor on a moment's notice I just yank it out of there.

[hymer]

You wouldn't happen to know of some similar resource for 3.5 by any chance Psyren? It looks like it could save a DM a lot of bother.

[Psyren]

No but honestly, you can use all those statblocks in 3.5 just fine. Simply drop the CMB/CMD line and adjust the skills. (e.g. if they have ranks in Stealth, give them those same ranks in Hide+Move Silently instead... and if that means they have slightly more ranks than normal, meh.)

[Deaxsa]

honestly? i DM where almost everyone has at least 4 class levels. and good stats, sometimes better than the elite array. and you can BET that the boss has better stats than the players.. one i rolled up started with 3 18s. The fact of the matter is that this allows me to customize NPCs much more. It allows humans to be a challenge into higher levels without needing things to be contrived (yea.. he was an adventurer.. in fact, every politician goes adventuring.. yea...). It makes it so that the PCs cannot just run through a town, slaughtering everyone without a care in the world at level 7, but rather, they must wait until level 14 or so. It's not too far fetched to think that people can have gained experience over the years. And it still makes for good gameplay. (also, it curbs on the problem players, who now have very real forces with which to contend.. not a group of level 1 warriors as guards)
as an example, a guard would be anywhere from level 4-7, a soldier, 6-9, and a commando level 10+

[nedz]

I use Elite, Standard or Basic Array as I deem appropriate.
Elite Array 15,14,13,12,10,8
Standard Array 13,12,11,10,9,8
Basic Array 11,11,11,10,10,10

It's just quicker.

[Darkz0r]

I've always though that the elite array is too low, thus most meaningful enemies have their stats rolled and adjusted as needed.
The thieves guild leader might not have 18 dex, but if he doesn't, at least he's gonna have a high cha and maybe avr int/wis that allowed him to get there.
The mayor/king probably has physical prowess and doesn't need such high mental stats as he might have had an adviser all his life to help.

Mostly I just choose what I deem appropriate. I also think every PC should have at least 1 18 stat.

[jedipotter]

Do your NPC's have the same stats as PC's?

No. But my PC's don't have the ''normal'' stats. For most of my games I go for the 4d6 put them where you'd like, no reroll, no matter how low you get. So my game does have wizards with intelligences of like 12. Npc's are no different.

[lunar2]

when i used to play, we had a 36 flat point buy (every ability point cost 1 point, no matter how high). we used the same point buy for npcs and elite monsters, so the "elite array" for our campaigns was 18,16,16,14,12,8

[Amphetryon]

Random NPCs in my campaign generally have stats 15 14 13 12 11 10; Named NPCs use the same stat generation method that the PCs use, which has varied a bit in recent campaigns.

[Seharvepernfan]

My NPC's have either the elite array or the average array. Statistically, 95% of people have the average array. Most adepts/commoners/experts/warriors have the average array.

PC's start with the elite array, and are almost always more optimized than NPC's.

[Devronq]

In my games PC always get elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8) then npcs get the same but special once get (18,15,14,13,12,10) I don't have a name for it but that's what I do.

[nedz]

Mostly I just choose what I deem appropriate. I also think every PC should have at least 1 18 stat.

Which favours Tier 1 characters.

Historically we have rolled 4d6d1 and re-arranged. I think I prefer Elite Array for PCs, as well as everyone else (of consequence).

[Hytheter]

The arrays strike me as easy to use. Standard or Basic arrays for mooks, Elite Array for important or recurring characters, and then maybe something bigger for really important characters like the Big Bad.

But it depends on what the player scores are. The Elite Array is the equivelant of 25 Point Buy in 3.5 (which is the Standard Point Buy in the DMG) and 15 in Pathfinder (which is the "Standard Fantasy" level). So that's probably perfect if you're using the Standard Point buys. But if you're going higher you'd probably want to create a new array/s that keep up with your players.

I'm not sure having an 18 in the base array is necessary. Generally I think you'll be trying to reach that with a racial boost if at all. Although that would make it difficult for Humans and the like (unless you're playing Pathfinder where you get the floating +2), that may not be such a bad thing considering that 18 is supposed to be the peak of human capability (and you'll reach it eventually anyway).


In my games PC always get elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8) then npcs get the same but special once get (18,15,14,13,12,10) I don't have a name for it but that's what I do.

Might I suggest calling it the Epic array? :P

[Greenish]

No but honestly, you can use all those statblocks in 3.5 just fine. Simply drop the CMB/CMD line and adjust the skills. (e.g. if they have ranks in Stealth, give them those same ranks in Hide+Move Silently instead... and if that means they have slightly more ranks than normal, meh.)Well, some players might be a bit miffed when a punk NPC guard busts out far better Spot, Listen, and Search scores than you'd expect (or they could afford with their 3.5 skill system).

[Thurbane]

When I run games, the NPCs all use the elite array (except for peasants and shopkeeps etc., who use the nonelite array).

PCs generally roll (usually 4d6 best 3, arrange to order, and a single die may be re-rolled at any point).

You wouldn't happen to know of some similar resource for 3.5 by any chance Psyren? It looks like it could save a DM a lot of bother.
DM Tools (http://www.dmtools.org/) is a user maintained database that I have found useful.

[Emperor Tippy]

It depends.

NPC's that are important get made just like PC's, using (generally) whatever method was used to generate the PC's stats.

NPC's that are unimportant get fully randomly generated.

If I want an array for some reason and don't feel like using the elite array then I usually go 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 10. Sometimes replace one of the 14's with an 8.

It really tends to depend on the specific individual.

[Siosilvar]

Worth noting is that the average roll of a 4d6 character is NOT the elite array, but instead closer to 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9 (http://catlikecoding.com/blog/post:4d6_drop_lowest). The elite array is the same numbers, but rounded down.

I generally don't worry about stats for NPCs but if I do, I use either this array (or 28 point buy) but I prefer characters on 30-32 point buy (leaning towards 31 so that they're not all even numbers).

[Emperor Tippy]

I should note that I tend to use all kinds of weird stat generation methods for PC's.

Last time I had players generate PC's, for example, I had them do 1d20-12, minimum 8, for every stat with negatives rolling back around (so roll an 11 and you get a 19).

[Hurnn]

pregenerated for generic stuff, I have the books may as well use them.

Important people get elite array

Really Important people will get a 18 16 14 12 10 10 array

[Thurbane]

Major NPCs in my games may get the "Prodigy" NPC trait which gives them a free (i.e. no CR increase) +2 to one ability score (and a +4 bonus to checks based on that score).

[Hytheter]

Worth noting is that the average roll of a 4d6 character is NOT the elite array, but instead closer to 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9 (http://catlikecoding.com/blog/post:4d6_drop_lowest). The elite array is the same numbers, but rounded down.

Hm, I find it interesting the average of 4d6b3 is therefore the equivelant of 28 point buy, which is one of the recommended Point Buys in the DMG. I wonder if this is why they chose that value or if its a coincidence?

[Urpriest]

You wouldn't happen to know of some similar resource for 3.5 by any chance Psyren? It looks like it could save a DM a lot of bother.

Enemies and Allies is 3.0, but the NPC classes didn't change that much so guards and such should still be usable.

On the thread topic, I use the elite array for NPCs with PC classes, the non-elite array if they just have NPC classes, and 10s and 11s if they have no class levels at all.

[Vhaidara]

One of my DMs has an interesting way of doing NPC stats for major ones (dungeon bosses, or other guys who have build-up). He starts with straight 16s. Then makes their 2 most important stats 20s, then applies level-up and item bonuses.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I should note that I tend to use all kinds of weird stat generation methods for PC's.

Last time I had players generate PC's, for example, I had them do 1d20-12, minimum 8, for every stat with negatives rolling back around (so roll an 11 and you get a 19).

Umm... stupid question; if the possible results are 1-20 and you're rolling a d20 to get the results, what's the point of the +12?




Anyway, I just use the standard array (8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13) for most NPC's and occasionally the elite array (8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15) for NPC's of moderate importance and the same generation as the PC's for major NPC's.

[Emperor Tippy]

Umm... stupid question; if the possible results are 1-20 and you're rolling a d20 to get the results, what's the point of the +12?
Roll 1d20 and then subtract twelve, your final result can't be less than 8.

So the possible results are 8-20. To get a 20 you have to roll a 12 on the dice.

If you rolled a 19, for example, then you would subtract 12 to get 7, which gets bumped up to the 8 minimum.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Roll 1d20 and then subtract twelve, your final result can't be less than 8.

So the possible results are 8-20. To get a 20 you have to roll a 12 on the dice.

If you rolled a 19, for example, then you would subtract 12 to get 7, which gets bumped up to the 8 minimum.

But even then the -12 doesn't actually change the distribution at all.

Roll 1d20, anything below 8 gets rounded up to 8. <- exact same distribution as the version with the (-12) and (if below 1; add 20) steps.

Sorry for being a pain, I just have a hard time accepting equations with unnecessary steps.

[skyth]

My players get a point buy. Important NPC's typically use the elite array or something close to it. Mooks generally get 10's in everything :)

I know, as a player, I'm annoyed when NPC's get a better stat generation system than I do. If an NPC starts with a base 18 in a stat, but there's no way I could...It just rubs me the wrong way.

[Dr. Cliché]

Most of my NPCs get the elite array.

For more important/powerful NPCs, I might actually roll stats (ideally so that the overall bonus is close to the players' average score bonus). These NPCs are also more likely to have stat items.

(In both cases, they get +1 to a stat, per 4 class levels - just like players).

Sometimes though, I'll just allocate whatever stats I feel most fits the character, without rolling or using point-buy. Generally, I'll only do this if: a) The NPCs stats need to reflect some important characteristics, that I don't feel can be adequately represented by the other methods, or b) essentially in lieu of a template - when the NPC has been augmented somehow beyond the normal stats for their race (and, presumably, I can't find a template that fits what I have in mind).

[molten_dragon]

Do your NPC's have the same stats as PC's?

Generic unimportant NPCs and the majority of monsters get all 10's and 11's, basically as written.

Medium-importance NPCs get the elite array.

Major NPCs use the same stat generation method the PCs do.

[Somensjev]

i roll all the stats for all the NPC's.. i use 5d6 best three, you may re-roll (all six) if your total modifier doesn't equal +1 or more, or if your highest stat is 11 or lower (same for the PC's)

although, i'm thinking i should probably try using arrays

[Thurbane]

i roll all the stats for all the NPC's.. i use 5d6 best three, you may re-roll (all six) if your total modifier doesn't equal +1 or more, or if your highest stat is 11 or lower (same for the PC's)

although, i'm thinking i should probably try using arrays
Wow, with 5d6 best 3, I'm guessing you very rarely have to do re-rolls on either of the clauses above?

[supervillan]

I'm not a fan of point buy systems of character (or NPC) generation because characters become too homogeneous. Every wizard starts with an 18 Int, and every fighter starts with 18 Str. Makes the game more dull.

PCs are generated with 4d6 keep 3, rearrange as desired. This sometimes gives an uninspiring array, in which case I allow a full reroll. Mostly, though, the results are fine. Yes, occasionally a player is lucky and gets a very powerful stat array. I don't find that it creates problems when it happens. My players will even things out - if Bob the Druid doesn't have any stat lower than 14, he's probably not going to be getting any stat-boosting items the party finds.

NPCs get an appropriate array from the "standard, average, elite" options, or will be custom designed by me depending on need and role. I'll run up a quick and dirty goblin boss with an elite array, per DMG/MM, but if I'm designing a BBEG I'll assign whatever stats I think suitable. If this means pushing stats well beyond the norm then the CR will be adjusted appropriately.

[Somensjev]

Wow, with 5d6 best 3, I'm guessing you very rarely have to do re-rolls on either of the clauses above?

my luck is very... interesting.. some days i might have to re-roll 2-4 times, per character, other days every character will have at least two 18's

[Thurbane]

I tried looking up what the average scores would be on 5d6b3, but without much luck.

Using the Hamete Virtual Dice Server (http://dicelog.com/dice), using 5d6-2L (6 rolls), I simply couldn't get anywhere near a net ability mod of +1 or highest score being 11. Did you ever do anything as a personal affront to the Dice Gods? Maybe your dice need to be exorcised! :smalltongue:

[Somensjev]

I tried looking up what the average scores would be on 5d6b3, but without much luck.

Using the Hamete Virtual Dice Server (http://dicelog.com/dice), using 5d6-2L (6 rolls), I simply couldn't get anywhere near a net ability mod of +1 or highest score being 11. Did you ever do anything as a personal affront to the Dice Gods? Maybe your dice need to be exorcised! :smalltongue:

probably, i think my worst roll using 5d6b3 was nothing above a nine (i only got one nine), my best was four 18's and two 17's

[Trilby]

I ran a oneshot for Christmas, for char gen we used 2d20, take highest. Anything lower then a 7 is a 7, if you roll doubles, you skip a roll, and use the value for two stats, if you roll doubles on your last roll, you add 1 to the roll. 2 tries :smallcool:.
There were shots of eggnog involved at this point though, and it turned into a bit of a drinking game.
Not sure I'd use this in a normal game, I might some day in a high powered campaign...

[Mithril Leaf]

If its a random NPC, randomly generated using whatever's handy.
If I'm tossing together something that vaguely matters, Elite Array.
If I'm building a real NPC for long term stuff, big bad or emperor or something, same method as the PCs use. As I'm currently DMing for newbs, this might teach them something useful about character creation.