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View Full Version : Elan, Balance, and House Rules, Oh my!



greatscott
2014-01-03, 08:44 PM
First off, let me say that I really like this game. Very well done, addictive even, and probably the best buy in terms of jokes / $ spent.

However, for the particular game that I play (3 player with my two sons), we are running into a pretty big balance issue.

The main thing is that...ELAN ROCKS (a bit too much given he has a lute not a guitar)

First, here is the type of game we are playing:
-3 player
-3 out of 4 starting shticks + 3 random shticks
-The Shortening + Sticky shticks
-Xykon on level 4. (no wandering Xykon)

We have found that if Elan is in the game, Elan wins the game. We did a little research that seems to illustrate the point. To try and get a handle on the issue, we made some calculations for each character.

For Attack

Sustained:
Assuming access to all shticks, how high of an attack could be sustained across unlimited battles.

Sustained w/items:
Same as sustained, but also add access to all loot items that are not consumable.

Flipping:
This is burst damage. With access to all shticks, how high could the character's attack value get?

Flipping w/items:
Same as flipping, but also add access to all loot items that are not consumable.

Defense:

Calculate the same four values for defense instead of attack.

Now admittedly, this does not cover all aspects of the game (and we note some other factors in the comments), but the results are pretty eye opening:

Here are the attack numbers:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z217/jscott457/OOTSAttackTable_zpsfdca8cbb.png

And here are the defense numbers:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z217/jscott457/OOTSDefenseTable_zpse501016d.png

While all the characters have special traits that help them score points, we have found the Elan advantage is just too high to overcome in most games. When Elan gets his shticks he just rolls. He even has a way to improve the time it takes to get his good shticks! ("Unwarranted Optimism")

We are working on some house rules to try and give the other characters a boost in areas that would help them compete a bit. Any thoughts on other ways of leveling things out would be appreciated.

General change:

If you win using a shtick that makes the battle a draw, you may then continue battling with another shtick if allowable (i.e. not after "Surprise!"). This improves characters that have decent attack but poor defense. If they succeed on a defense roll with "Hide" or similar, then they get to go on the attack.


Roy:
Roy is probably the closest to Elan in raw power. When "Great Cleavage" gets going, it is something to behold! :smallbiggrin: Roy does struggle with flying monsters, and green energy + book of true power is a little much to require. Our house rule solution is to augment the bunny slippers to add the following power to Roy: The slippers allow Roy to get in touch with is inner rabbit. They act as boots of springing for Roy giving his Greenhilt sword a range of 1.

Durkon:
Durkon begins with decent defense, but he suffers in the end game a bit. To give him a little boost, our house rule gives him more burst ability. Our solution involves cure assorted wounds.

Cure Assorted Wounds: After resting or at the dungeon entrance, Durkon can choose to memorize Cure or Cause (Durkula?) assorted wounds. Until he rests again or visits the entrance, the shticks are treated as either cure or cause. Cure assorted wounds acts as normal, but can be flipped to add +2 attack and defense against undead until the end of the current battle. Cause assorted wounds lose their healing power, but gain the ability when flipped to add +2 attack and defense until the end of the current battle.

Haley:
Haley benefits from the change to "Hide," but that is it. Perhaps she needs an additional burst boost??

Vaarsuvius:
V has decent attack abilities (although mostly flappable), so the solution here is to give V more chances to attack. Our house rules:
"Verbose Recitation" benefits from the general rule above. We also increase the initial defense value for the shtick to +5.

Belkar:
Belkar main powers are on the attack. To help Belkar go on the attack, his "Hide" shtick benefits from the general rule. In addition, we add a house rule to "Leaping Attack." If you use LA to make a ranged attack using "Twin Daggers of Doom," you may continue to attack monsters in the room as if you made a melee attack with TDoD.

Elan:
No changes, already a rock star.

Thoughts, comments and suggestions welcome!

Dr.Gunsforhands
2014-01-05, 11:54 PM
How to beat Elan:

- Don't assist him
- Don't ask him for assistance
- Keep your hands on your noses at all times
- Constantly attack him and assist each other in PVP battles
- Focus all of your Veto Shticks and Screw This cards on him
- Make him fight monsters he literally can't beat while giving each other easier or more rewarding fare
- Never, ever let him know how much you believe in the power of Banjo

It's called, "metagaming," and it is a valuable tool for punishing people who use too much overpowered nonsense. In my experience, it's usually Haley who gets this treatment, if only because she has +3/+3 right out of the gate and can still deal with fliers.

That said, this is also a handy checklist for making your game as unenjoyable as possible, so what I often need to ask myself is, "why do I care about winning so much?" ...or, if I'm playing as Elan, "Why don't I have all four copies of Bard Song out right now?"

Anyhoo, the Hide/Armor adaptation might speed up some games, but they might also give Belkar and V a huge, unpredicted advantage from being able to move and attack in the same turn. I might try it and see what makes the most sense, there.

Reddish Mage
2014-01-14, 12:57 PM
Sure, you can beat any player by ganging up on them in a 3+ multiplayer game, but that doesn't mean the characters are equally strong. My gaming group is still experimenting with this game, but I'm personally surprised to hear that Elan is so OP.

King of Nowhere
2014-01-16, 02:34 PM
In my experience elan can become very strong in the end, but is very weak early, and won't ever level up if the people you play with are too greedy to ask for help.
Also, I don't remember his bonuses to be that high, especially in attack. I seemed to remember he could get the higher defence in the game, but not such a great attack.

Duck999
2014-01-19, 02:50 PM
How to beat Elan:

- Don't assist him
- Don't ask him for assistance
- Keep your hands on your noses at all times
- Constantly attack him and assist each other in PVP battles
- Focus all of your Veto Shticks and Screw This cards on him
- Make him fight monsters he literally can't beat while giving each other easier or more rewarding fare
- Never, ever let him know how much you believe in the power of Banjo

The only problem there is that the player cannot control if they get Elan. In a 2 player game, my brother removes wacky hijinks from the shtick deck. If you are out of shticks, but you have 3 xs, you can exchange, only 1 time, for a bragging point. You could also take Elan out of games with less than 6 people.

Lord Torath
2014-01-24, 11:08 AM
He's never seemed terribly powerful in the games I've played. I think Roy and Haley are the ones who win the most often (out of the 6-10 times we've played it. Not a big sample size).
How to beat Elan:

- Don't assist him
- Don't ask him for assistance
- Keep your hands on your noses at all times
- Constantly attack him and assist each other in PVP battles
- Focus all of your Veto Shticks and Screw This cards on him
- Make him fight monsters he literally can't beat while giving each other easier or more rewarding fare
- Never, ever let him know how much you believe in the power of Banjo

That said, this is also a handy checklist for making your game as unenjoyable as possible, so what I often need to ask myself is, "why do I care about winning so much?" ...or, if I'm playing as Elan, "Why don't I have all four copies of Bard Song out right now?".I highly agree with this. While we all want to win, it's much more important when playing a silly game like this just to have fun!

Dr.Gunsforhands
2014-01-30, 01:33 AM
...I don't remember his bonuses to be that high, especially in attack. I seemed to remember he could get the higher defence[sic] in the game, but not such a great attack.

I think that's the root of the problem that people are seeing. Defense is generally much more valuable than attack for monster-fighting purposes. If you want to charge into a room to fight a bunch of monsters and get their loot, which is the most efficient way to victory points, stacking up on a defensive shtick (that is, one that actually deals damage) is usually optimal.

Elan gets Rapier as a starting shtick in the expansion, and with that in mind I've determined that it's crazy not to take it if you have the option.


The only problem there is that the player cannot control if they get Elan.
They can't? I guess not if you always determine it randomly... and if they don't whine, "Aw, maaaan!" loudly enough.:smalltongue:

I've taken to playing as V on purpose because V is basically this game's Hard Mode, so I never feel as bad about losing. Arguably, if Elan is imbalanced, that just means he's that much better to hand to new players. They even get to have the full Elan experience of having no idea what's going on!