Anthropomorphic Animals cannot be made from Dire Animals?

[OldTrees1]

From Savage Species

CREATING AN ANTHROPOMORPHIC ANIMAL:
Any animal (hereafter referred to as the base creature), but not a dire animal, can be created as an anthropomorphic animal.
Is this old news?

[eggynack]

I'd never really thought about it. I just read the listed entries, which don't include dire animals, and move on. More accurately, I just read the entry for anthropomorphic bats and move on, cause that's how I roll. :smallcool:

[beforemath]

I can still make an anthropomorphic animal from a regular animal with the Advanced and Giant templates, right?

[OldTrees1]

I can still make an anthropomorphic animal from a regular animal with the Advanced and Giant templates, right?

RAW? Yes.
RAI? IDK.
Where are those templates?

[GhengisConrad]

The problem with just 'making up' RAW anthropomorphic animals is figuring out the level adjustment. Why wouldn't you give bat or raven a level adjustment, but eagle and hawk get a +1?

Only the RAW gods have dominion over that territory. It is blasphemy even to tread.

[beforemath]

RAW? Yes.
RAI? IDK.
Where are those templates?


Here, if we're talking pathfinder.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterAdvancement.html

[Jack_Simth]

The problem with just 'making up' RAW anthropomorphic animals is figuring out the level adjustment. Why wouldn't you give bat or raven a level adjustment, but eagle and hawk get a +1?Nominally because the Bat and Raven have net 0 or less stat modifiers, while the Hawk has net +10 and the Eagle has net +12.

[GhengisConrad]

are you attempting to imply they are following :some: kind of a rule? is it spelt out precisely? is it followed? i could be misremembering... but it seems kinda hodgepodge. though id love an excuse to scoure tiny flying anials for an alternative to anthro bat.

[OldTrees1]

are you attempting to imply they are following :some: kind of a rule? is it spelt out precisely? is it followed? i could be misremembering... but it seems kinda hodgepodge. though id love an excuse to scoure tiny flying anials for an alternative to anthro bat.

Some kind of rule?
Kinda Savage Species is a book dedicated to the guidelines of estimating/setting appropriate LA.

Spelt out precisely?
Not really. It is mostly guidelines.

Is it followed?
Within Savage Species it is probably followed with reasonable accuracy. The accuracy drops/stops outside of Savage Species.

[Chronos]

The other problem with Savage Species LA is that they assumed that everyone was a fighter. Something's large? That's gotta have an LA, since large size is really good for fighters. Something's small? No, of course that can't have an LA, since small size sucks for fighters. And so we end up with LA 0 tier 1 casters with +6 to their SAD stat, natural flight, and a boost to their AC and ray attacks.

[Karnith]

The other other problem with the Savage Species LA guidelines is that, even using WotC's standards (which produce a lot of inflated LAs), they give extremely inflated level adjustments; read some of the acid tests in Chapter 2 of the book for an idea of how poorly the guidelines model appropriate LAs.

Using the guidelines, you'd end up with ECL 7 Ogres (actual ECL: 6), ECL 6 Kuo-Toas (actual ECL: 4), and ECL 14 Trolls (actual ECL: 11).

[GreenSerpent]

Sadly you can't make them from Horrid animals either... since they're made from Dire Animals.

Or can you? Probably not, but worth a try.

[Mithril Leaf]

The other problem with Savage Species LA is that they assumed that everyone was a fighter. Something's large? That's gotta have an LA, since large size is really good for fighters. Something's small? No, of course that can't have an LA, since small size sucks for fighters. And so we end up with LA 0 tier 1 casters with +6 to their SAD stat, natural flight, and a boost to their AC and ray attacks.

Although that's by and large true, there is the specific case of the Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale being just about the best fighter race ever. If you really want to have some fun, toss Half-Ogre and Proto-Creature on there as well. Plus maybe Wild. Hurrah for being barely sentient and having the social grace of a rock. So strong though, so strong.

[Jack_Simth]

are you attempting to imply they are following :some: kind of a rule? is it spelt out precisely? is it followed? i could be misremembering... but it seems kinda hodgepodge. though id love an excuse to scoure tiny flying anials for an alternative to anthro bat.

As OldTrees1 said:
Some kind, yes. Savage Species starts out with Estimating Level Adjustments on page 10, and gets into the meat of it on page 11. That said... yeah, it's all estimating, with lots of notes that various things are highly campaign dependant.

[danzibr]

Although that's by and large true, there is the specific case of the Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale being just about the best fighter race ever. If you really want to have some fun, toss Half-Ogre and Proto-Creature on there as well. Plus maybe Wild. Hurrah for being barely sentient and having the social grace of a rock. So strong though, so strong.
And the anthropomorphic giant octopus, which gives 7 natural attacks and some respectable stat bonuses for the low cost of 0 LA and 2 RHD (and monstrous humanoid RHD are quite good).

[Mithril Leaf]

And the anthropomorphic giant octopus, which gives 7 natural attacks and some respectable stat bonuses for the low cost of 0 LA and 2 RHD (and monstrous humanoid RHD are quite good).

The issue of course being that it breaths water instead of air and I have yet to find a cheap, easy, RAW, way of giving things that breath water the ability to breath air rather than the reverse. Or maybe I'm just thinking of a land speed, but I think it's breathing air.

[Jeff the Green]

The issue of course being that it breaths water instead of air and I have yet to find a cheap, easy, RAW, way of giving things that breath water the ability to breath air rather than the reverse. Or maybe I'm just thinking of a land speed, but I think it's breathing air.

While obviously intended for air-breathing critters, the amphibious template works just fine for the cost of -2 Dexterity.

[Mithril Leaf]

While obviously intended for air-breathing critters, the amphibious template works just fine for the cost of -2 Dexterity.

Right, it was in fact the ability to gain a land speed I was thinking of. Amphibious Giant Octopi are a great addition to natural weapon builds. Also monks in general.

[Ruethgar]

Nominally because the Bat and Raven have net 0 or less stat modifiers, while the Hawk has net +10 and the Eagle has net +12.

Ravens actually have a net +2.

[danzibr]

The issue of course being that it breaths water instead of air and I have yet to find a cheap, easy, RAW, way of giving things that breath water the ability to breath air rather than the reverse. Or maybe I'm just thinking of a land speed, but I think it's breathing air.

While obviously intended for air-breathing critters, the amphibious template works just fine for the cost of -2 Dexterity.

Right, it was in fact the ability to gain a land speed I was thinking of. Amphibious Giant Octopi are a great addition to natural weapon builds. Also monks in general.
Jeff already addressed the air-breathing. As for land speed,


If the base creature is aquatic, the anthropomorphic animal retains its innate swimming ability and water-breathing characteristics, if any. If an anthropomorphic character is small, its land speed is 20 feet. Otherwise, its land speed is 30 feet.

So seemingly, there is no problem with speed (and it's not clear you actually need Amphibious; why would an anthropomorphic giant octopus have a land speed of 30 feet but be unable to breathe air?).

[Uncle Pine]

From Savage Species

CREATING AN ANTHROPOMORPHIC ANIMAL:
Any animal (hereafter referred to as the base creature), but not a dire animal, can be created as an anthropomorphic animal.

Is this old news?

Yes I think it's old news, but if you're interested in making/playing "anthropomorphic" dire animals have a look at the manimal template in Advanced Bestiary. You can apply it to any animal, without restrictions.

[Jack_Simth]

Ravens actually have a net +2.

Still - when the LA +1's have net modifiers at +10 and above, a +2 or less makes an amount of sense as not being LA +1.

Of course, the system is rather borked, but eh.

[Mithril Leaf]

Jeff already addressed the air-breathing. As for land speed,

So seemingly, there is no problem with speed (and it's not clear you actually need Amphibious; why would an anthropomorphic giant octopus have a land speed of 30 feet but be unable to breathe air?).

It wasn't for this actually, I just always have had a desire to play a Shalarin.

[The Insanity]

I ignore such restrictions as I see fit.