flurry of blows and twf

[drakoonity]

Ok so I was reading and I was unsure if this works but, would a monks flurry of blows stack with twf. Cause twf says that you get an attack with your off hand, but it says that a monk who is unarmed doesn't have an off hand attack. So i was wondering would they stack cause I don't think so?

[GhengisConrad]

AFB but IIRC they do, but the penalties stack too. Giving you like -alot to your rolls.

If you want more attacks for free, consider natural weapons. As a secondary attack, they take a simple -5 from your base attack, and don't affect your regular routine at all.

There are several heritage feats that qualify, as well as a bunch of cool classes and templates.

Alternatively you can be evil (or non-evil and helbred) and take willing deformity to get natural attacks.

[Urpriest]

In 3.5, that phrase "does not have an off-hand" is generally interpreted to mean that they can attack with both hands (or other body-parts) without using the TWF rules or otherwise taking penalties. That shouldn't stop you from getting more attacks by accepting the penalties, though. Note that, generally, two-weapon fighting requires two different weapons, so if you think of a monk's unarmed strike as just one weapon (as many do), then you'd need another weapon (a kama or something) if you wanted to TWF.

[cakellene]

I seem to recall an Ask the Sage article that discussed TWF and unarmed strikes.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Ok so I was reading and I was unsure if this works but, would a monks flurry of blows stack with twf. Cause twf says that you get an attack with your off hand, but it says that a monk who is unarmed doesn't have an off hand attack. So i was wondering would they stack cause I don't think so?

When they say there is no off-hand attack for a monk fighting unarmed they mean a monk's unarmed attacks always add the full strength bonus. A monk could(at least while using a special monk weapon) use flurry of blows and TWF at the same time.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's no unquestionably RAW answer or even one that's generally agreed upon.

I tend to lean on the side of allowing them to stack with the monk getting to add his full strength mod to all of his unarmed strikes and without requiring him to use a separate weapon since the rules -can- be interpreted as to allow that and the monk certainly isn't overpowered even if you allow it.

[Keld Denar]

They are separate mechanics and can be combined. The phrase "no offhands for monks", IMO, simply reinforces the fact that a monk isn't TWFing even if their attack is described as attacking with both hands. That doesn't stop them from actually using TWFing like any other character class.

[Darrin]

FAQ says yes, they can stack. RAW is murky. The general consensus is if your unarmed strike is primary, it can't also be offhand, although some DMs allow unarmed strike to count as multiple striking surfaces. If you want your offhand damage to be the same as your unarmed strike, Scorpion Kama or Dragonfang Gauntlets might work (both found in the Magic Item Compendium).

My TWF OffHandbook (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585) discusses this more in-depth.

[danzibr]

City Brawler ACF mentions TWF for unarmed strikes.

[drakoonity]

Ok, so say at level 2 with flurry I get two attack. How many would I get with flurry and twf. Like would I get 4 or would it be 3?

[cakellene]

TWF adds a single attack, at least before you get the higher rank feats.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ok, so say at level 2 with flurry I get two attack. How many would I get with flurry and twf. Like would I get 4 or would it be 3?

3.

One extra for flurry and one extra for TWF plus the normal attack available to a character of that BAB. These are all made at a -4 penalty.

As I mentioned before, RAW is remarkably unclear on whether all three of these could be unarmed strikes and, if so, whether the extra from TWF would get the character's full strength bonus. Again, I lean towards yes on both counts but that's more out of a sense of "monks need the help" than anything else.

[StreamOfTheSky]

RAW, yes.

I don't like the idea of TWF with unarmed myself, I try to keep the "unarmed strike is all the same weapon" thing as consistent as possible. And that means not two-weapon fighting with the same weapon.

But RAW doesn't provide the benefits of it being the same weapon, like enhancements for 2000*bonus^2 gp that can go up to +10, so whatever. You may as well eke out whatever advantages you can in a strict RAW game.

[CRtwenty]

Not sure about the actual RAW involved, but in my games I rule that they do indeed stack.

[MeeposFire]

RAW, yes.

I don't like the idea of TWF with unarmed myself, I try to keep the "unarmed strike is all the same weapon" thing as consistent as possible. And that means not two-weapon fighting with the same weapon.

But RAW doesn't provide the benefits of it being the same weapon, like enhancements for 2000*bonus^2 gp that can go up to +10, so whatever. You may as well eke out whatever advantages you can in a strict RAW game.

Actually it is less consistent to make unarmed attacks unable to be used with two weapon fighting since it would make it an odd special case.

We know that clearly you can use an unarmed strike as an off hand attack as nobody says that if you were to wield a rapier and your fist that you couldn't two weapon fight. We know that you can use one weapon to two weapon fight so long as it has multiple attack surfaces (such as a quarter staff). We know that for a monk the entire body is a weapon with many attack surfaces to choose from. We also know that if you were to wear two spiked gauntlets that you could decide to use the two weapon fighting rules no problem. We also know that you can wield two weapons and use both of them and NOT use the two weapon fighting rules so long as you don't take the extra attack.

If we go by what you say if you were to punch an enemy with your fists covered in spikey metal there is no problem but if that metal was to disappear while you punch you could no longer two weapon fight? How does that make any sense what so ever?

Think of it this way any given part of your body is a potential unarmed attack ready to happen, however that does not mean that you have to use them for extra attacks and even having all those options do not mean you get more than extra attack if you try to attack with multiple weapons (the many weapon fighting rules are clear that no matter how many weapons you carry it only matters how many limbs you have and you still have only two). Just like if you were to wield a rapier and a dagger (where you can choose to interchange attacks with both weapons into your attack routine but do not take two weapon fighting penalties UNLESS you choose to take an extra attack) you can have yourself attack with all sorts of unarmed strike types and not make extra attacks. The primary reason that all of these attacks (kicks punches etc) are listed just as unarmed strike and as one weapon is for the sake of ease of use. Making individual stats for specific body parts is possible but is not worth it and unnecessarily complicate the game.

The other part you are all forgetting is that even if you accept the no off hand attack thing to actually mean no two weapon fighting that it ONLY APPLIES TO MONKS. For every other class off hand two weapon fighting with itself is 100% justified since there is nothing in the rules anywhere outside of the monk specific rules that prevent you from two weapon fighting with your fists alone and since they fall under the general weapon rules for this purpose it would need something specific to override that. So if we are going to discuss this issue it needs to be discussed as monk only and not under the general unarmed fighting rules many of us are talking about.

Granted I am firmly in the camp that the "no off hand attack" is just a reminder that all of a monks attacks are just as damaging and that using your feat or head are just as effective as using your "primary" hand.

Lastly we can already prove that as a general rule TWF works with flurry because you can choose to wield two kamas or other monk weapons. There is no question this would work unless you play pathfinder (since flurry is two weapon fighting in PF).