Chunky Salsa in DnD

[Dark Kerman]

Hey all,

I was just considering the pros and cons of adding in some sort of chunky salsa rule to my game. I'm aware of the massive damage rule, but I think that at higher levels that's not really going to work.

Does anyone have any experience with this? If so, what works? I figure it would work best if it scales with hit dice or some such.

Thanks

DK

[limejuicepowder]

I've never heard the term "chunky salsa" before, but I'm guessing based on context it's some massive-damage type variant.

I don't know if this actually answers your question, but I think the easiest way to scale the massive damage rules is to attach a fort vs death whenever a character loses 1/2 or more of their HP in one shot, with a minimum of 50 damage. This way lower level characters aren't hosed, and 18th level barbs with hundreds of HP aren't making saves on virtually every hit they take.

[molten_dragon]

I was just considering the pros and cons of adding in some sort of chunky salsa rule to my game.

It would help if you explained what that is.

If it's something like massive damage, I'd say avoid it. It turns high-level D&D into a big game of russian roulette, and isn't much fun.

[beforemath]

I guess you could make it so the walls reflect/add AoE damage as in Shadowrun (assuming the spell doesn't destroy the wall), if that's what you mean. The lightningbolt spell even worked that way in previous editions.

Problem with this is you're taking the strongest class(es) and making it a bit stronger...

[skyth]

In my experience the Chunky Salsa rule is that if you do enough damage to render something's head into chunky salsa, it is dead :) Usually dealing with things that heal really quickly.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChunkySalsaRule

Of course, the OP could clarify what they mean :)

[Slipperychicken]

It helps discourage stupidity like jumping off a skyscraper unassisted because you have 121 hit points.

[Eaglejarl]

It helps discourage stupidity like jumping off a skyscraper unassisted because you have 121 hit points.

A friend of mine did that. It annoyed me so much that I threw out the falling damage rules after that -- uncapped the maximum damage, changed the rules on Falling Objects to allow for damage to nearby victims from scattered debris, etc.

<shameless plug>I used this in Two Year Emperor (link in sig) to have the main character perform three orbital strikes.</shameless plug>

[StreamOfTheSky]

It helps discourage stupidity like jumping off a skyscraper unassisted because you have 121 hit points.

Why does that have to be stupid?

Why can't high level characters (and let's face it; we're talking martials here if it's a case of "high enough hp to just take the damage" generally) just be so badass and powerful that they can do things that would be utterly suicidal for a level 1 commoner like you and me? A level 5 wizard can already start screwing with the flow of time itself (haste) or fly, why are you so upset about a much higher level character taking a dive off a skyscraper and brushing some dirt off himself as he gets back up?

EDIT: And all this talk reminded me of a scene from one of my favorite old shows (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ue63TtusX5c#t=229). Not normal humans, but lycanthropes. But still, a 10th level+ guy isn't a normal human, either.

[Palanan]

Originally Postedby Slipperychicken
It helps discourage stupidity like jumping off a skyscraper unassisted because you have 121 hit points.


Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky
Why does that have to be stupid?

The phrase "terminal velocity" comes to mind.

Really, it's one thing to jump from a rooftop, make a perfectly timed roll and do something flashy and lethal at the end of it. That's conceivable. It's another to fall 1700 feet onto a hard surface and not splash, which is what any vaguely realistic organism would do.

Call me silly; call me old-fashioned. Strictly non-magical base-jumping should have consequences if it's treated cavalierly.

[skyth]

The phrase "terminal velocity" comes to mind.

Really, it's one thing to jump from a rooftop, make a perfectly timed roll and do something flashy and lethal at the end of it. That's conceivable. It's another to fall 1700 feet onto a hard surface and not splash, which is what any vaguely realistic organism would do.

Call me silly; call me old-fashioned. Strictly non-magical base-jumping should have consequences if it's treated cavalierly.

Ummm...People have survived (Even with no damage) having their parachute not opening while skydiving.

Terminal velocity, btw, is WHY there is a 20d6 cap on falling damage...You stop accellerating once you hit terminal velocity :)

[Slipperychicken]

Ummm...People have survived (Even with no damage) having their parachute not opening while skydiving.

Terminal velocity, btw, is WHY there is a 20d6 cap on falling damage...You stop accellerating once you hit terminal velocity :)

The real problem is that these characters can survive the fall with literally no chance of death whatsoever.

It's not like you could take the real-life survivors and have them do it again and again.

[skyth]

Still, 20th level characters are tons more resilient than any real world person would be.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by skyth
Ummm...People have survived (Even with no damage) having their parachute not opening while skydiving.

Pretty sure they didn't land on concrete.


Originally Posted by Slipperychicken
The real problem is that these characters can survive the fall with literally no chance of death whatsoever.

It's not like you could take the real-life survivors and have them do it again and again.

This point is right on-target. Those skydiving survivors are flukes of fortune; it's not something you'd ever want to rely on, and certainly not a general precedent to argue from.

[Terazul]

Really, it's one thing to jump from a rooftop, make a perfectly timed roll and do something flashy and lethal at the end of it. That's conceivable. It's another to fall 1700 feet onto a hard surface and not splash, which is what any vaguely realistic organism would do.


Good thing 3.5 isn't a remotely realistic game. Seriously, it's heroic fantasy. Let the martial characters (the ones likely enough to be able to pull this stuff) be heroic, and in a fantasy setting.

Also, really people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Chisov) have (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rankin) fallen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliane_Koepcke) from (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesna_Vulovi%C4%87) significantly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Magee) higher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Alkemade) and survived. 1700? Try 23,000. And those guys are like, level 2.

[Invader]

Ummm...People have survived (Even with no damage) having their parachute not opening while skydiving.

Terminal velocity, btw, is WHY there is a 20d6 cap on falling damage...You stop accellerating once you hit terminal velocity :)

Generally exception follows the rule, not the other way around.

Let's keep in mind that it's not terribly difficult to get 121 hit points either. That's a 10th level fighter with better than average con and no attribute boosting magic.

[Heliomance]

The real problem is that these characters can survive the fall with literally no chance of death whatsoever.

It's not like you could take the real-life survivors and have them do it again and again.

No. Because real-life people aren't 20th level barbarians.

[eggynack]

Generally exception follows the rule, not the other way around.
High level D&D characters are the exception. That's just how it works.

Edit: As for a 10th level fighter with average constitution, that's a character with a significantly greater level than anything that has ever existed in the real world. Measuring based on how things are in the real world makes no sense, especially when some beings in the real world don't even necessarily follow this rule.

[Khanjar]

Generally exception follows the rule, not the other way around.

Let's keep in mind that it's not terribly difficult to get 121 hit points either. That's a 10th level fighter with average con and no attribute boosting magic.

I think this is the crux of the argument. People (not necessarily the person I quoted) are trying to apply the real life problem of falling from a great height to a setting where it's almost assumed you have magic items by L10. As has been stated many times before, real world humans are lame. Truely exeptional ones might be L5 mundanes.

The D&D setting by definition bypasses the boring real world limitations of what should be possible. In the same sentence you're arguing that pysics should kill the character with a magic item. You just have to buy into the premise that D&D is bordering on superhero levels of resilience. You're fighting (and surving multiple hits from) Dragons. What's a little fall damage after that?

[Dr. Azkur]

Something like this? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm

[Volthawk]

The real problem is that these characters can survive the fall with literally no chance of death whatsoever.

It's not like you could take the real-life survivors and have them do it again and again.

Those real life survivors weren't high-level adventurers who can take on dragons and demons either.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Khanjar
You just have to buy into the premise that D&D is bordering on superhero levels of resilience.

I'd say it's a question of how much Superman you want in your Beowulf.

Also, whether a high-level character is innately resilient, or explicitly relies on magic items for falling survival and etc. That's a key distinction.


Originally Posted by Khanjar
The D&D setting by definition bypasses the boring real world limitations of what should be possible.

This is kind of sad, really, because the real world can be an amazing place when you get to know it a little. I'm never bored.

[Khanjar]

I'd say it's a question of how much Superman you want in your Beowulf.

Also, whether a high-level character is innately resilient, or explicitly relies on magic items for falling survival and etc. That's a key distinction.


The entire CR system is built assuming characters have access to magical items as indicated on the Wealth by Level table (Table 5.1 in DMG iirc). To me that implicitly assumes that they have magic items to help them survive. If it comes down to just taking the damage HP is all that matters; Whether it's assisted by magic or not is irrelevant. The abstraction of HP is a measure of how well this character vs. that one is at surviving outright abuse to their person.




This is kind of sad, really, because the real world can be an amazing place when you get to know it a little. I'm never bored.

All I meant by that comment was you can do things in D&D that just wouldn't be possible in the real world. Anyone whose ever read a comic book and marveled (no pun intended) at what some of the characters can do knows what I mean by "boring real world". I agree that there's an amazing world out there, no offense meant.

[NeeL]

This is kind of sad, really, because the real world can be an amazing place when you get to know it a little. I'm never bored.

I too think the real world is wonderful. Especially since I discovered it has D&D!

[StreamOfTheSky]

High level D&D characters are the exception. That's just how it works.

Edit: As for a 10th level fighter with average constitution, that's a character with a significantly greater level than anything that has ever existed in the real world. Measuring based on how things are in the real world makes no sense, especially when some beings in the real world don't even necessarily follow this rule.

And by 10th level, a cleric can bring the dead back to life...

But jumping off a building and living is too unbelievable.

[GreenETC]

On my favorite party dip: I'd say it's not worth it. If you start doing something like trying to map out the amount of damage that would gib someone, you might as well just do massive damage, because then everyone will just go "I aim for his head with my Power Attack," which is something the rules don't actually have rules and stuff for, leading to more house rules and a lot more deadly fights. Plus stuff like Vorpal exists already for head-based stuff and people in D&D survive without heads all the time, so it would get very weird very fast.

On falling: A capped fall damage deals anywhere from 20-120 damage, which means that if you got lucky, you could survive falling from the stratosphere at like level 1, counting going into the negatives as being fine. If you're trying to make something difficult for level 10+ characters, it's going to take more than a 500ft tall cliff in the way of their objective.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky
And by 10th level, a cleric can bring the dead back to life...

But jumping off a building and living is too unbelievable.

For a mundane, nonmagical individual, as you yourself specified.


Originally Posted by Khanjar
Anyone whose ever read a comic book and marveled (no pun intended) at what some of the characters can do knows what I mean by "boring real world". I agree that there's an amazing world out there, no offense meant.

Gotcha, no worries. And I do see your point about transcending human norms.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I think a big factor of this comes down to one question.

Are Fighters (and other martial types) OP in your game?

If they aren't why do you want to take away one of the few nice things they get?

If they are OP, then I supose you could consider a rule like this, but be on the look out for people developing their system mastery. In mid-OP miss chances and immunities are already better than piles of hp, there's no eed to make them more-so.

[Amphetryon]

The phrase "terminal velocity" comes to mind.

Really, it's one thing to jump from a rooftop, make a perfectly timed roll and do something flashy and lethal at the end of it. That's conceivable. It's another to fall 1700 feet onto a hard surface and not splash, which is what any vaguely realistic organism would do.

Call me silly; call me old-fashioned. Strictly non-magical base-jumping should have consequences if it's treated cavalierly.

What changes to the 3.5 rules-set would you advocate to keep Wizards, Clerics, Druids, et al from laughing at real world physical limits? Or, are those merely limits for non-casters in a game of heroic high fantasy?

[Flickerdart]

For a mundane, nonmagical individual, as you yourself specified.
A 10th level fighter is nonmagical, but there's nothing mundane about them. What you've fallen into here is the Guy at the Gym fallacy, which is the reason that non-magical characters in 3.5 never get nice things.

[Palanan]

Ahh, we're using the term "fallacy," so of course I must be wrong. :smallamused:

Really, I responded to a particular example, and now everyone wants to extrapolate that to a complete rewrite of the rules. Not worth arguing further. Interpret that as a moral victory for the anti-fallacy brigades if you like.

*shrug*

[StreamOfTheSky]

For a mundane, nonmagical individual, as you yourself specified.

You seem to think that "surviving a long fall" and "restoring life to the departed" are somehow remotely comparable abilities, and possibly that I think they are by making the comparison.

When in fact my whole point was that even if you allow the mundanes to do the "real life impossible" stuff the RAW allows them to, they're still nothing compared to what a caster is doing at the same levels.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

If it refers to the Shadowrun rule (the Schlock Mercenary calls a similar rule the "Chunky Salsa rule", so I'm thinking the TVTropes page is getting the definition wrong)...I guess I can't see a lot of situations it would pop up. Shadowrun is a game where taking cover is a thing, where you'll often end up against walls. D&D isn't. So said rule would seem very superfluous.

[Oko and Qailee]

It's not like you could take the real-life survivors and have them do it again and again.


It's another to fall 1700 feet onto a hard surface and not splash, which is what any vaguely realistic organism would do.

In D&D if a single level 20 fighter had to fight vs an arbitrarily large (but not literally infinite) army of trained melee warriors around level 1-3, the fighter 20 will win 10/10 times provided he has combat reflexes and a reach weapon.

People can't do that in real life.

A fireball spell does 10d6 fire damage, non-magical fire does 1d6. A fighter can tank flames that would instantly incinerate any living human.

People can't do that in real life.

You guy's cannot put a real life boundary on the game for the sake of realism unless you're willing to put it on everything. If you won't let a fighter survive a fall from space... well then logic dictates fireball should read "instantly kills and human with fire."



Ahh, we're using the term "fallacy," so of course I must be wrong. :smallamused:



You're putting words in his mouth, he just said you committed a fallacy. You are free to disagree or make the point that it is not a fallacy.


Edit: To expand on the fire issue, a typical fire IRL can hit as high as 1200 degree Celsius in a burning building. This does 1d6 damage. D&D fighters can tank multiple fireballs, so what would incinerate and human IRL instantly... is just a mild inconvenience for them.

[Yukitsu]

If it refers to the Shadowrun rule (the Schlock Mercenary calls a similar rule the "Chunky Salsa rule", so I'm thinking the TVTropes page is getting the definition wrong)...I guess I can't see a lot of situations it would pop up. Shadowrun is a game where taking cover is a thing, where you'll often end up against walls. D&D isn't. So said rule would seem very superfluous.

To elaborate, the original chunky salsa rule is where you're in an area with walls preventing the blast from an explosion from escaping which multiplies the damage turning the guy trapped in said confined space into something resembling chunky salsa.

As for the rule in D&D, not really a great idea, since you can get fairly huge area of effect abilities, and corridors in most pre-made modules are pretty limited. Unless you want people doing 900d6 damage fireballs at about level 7, you probably don't want damage reflecting back and forth that much.

[Slipperychicken]

To elaborate, the original chunky salsa rule is where you're in an area with walls preventing the blast from an explosion from escaping which multiplies the damage turning the guy trapped in said confined space into something resembling chunky salsa.

As for the rule in D&D, not really a great idea, since you can get fairly huge area of effect abilities, and corridors in most pre-made modules are pretty limited. Unless you want people doing 900d6 damage fireballs at about level 7, you probably don't want damage reflecting back and forth that much.

This is why Fireballs don't exert pressure anymore.