'I don't know what happens next!'

[The Oni]

Called it!

Elan "beat" Tarquin in the most Chaotic way possible for a bard - he broke convention. Tarquin overextended himself, expecting some impossibly dramatic conclusion, and tossed all his hard-earned resources to the wind.

Elan has allowed Tarquin to destroy himself, figuratively and perhaps literally. His army is decimated, his family utterly lost to him, and he may not be able to keep control of his empire. Worst of all, Tarquin thinks the story had a bad ending, but doesn't seem to realize that he walked right into a great one - that ending just happens to be a Greek tragedy. Nothing that's happened to Tarquin here was inflicted by anyone but Tarquin himself.

And really, that's the best part - he doesn't see the narrative anymore. He stopped running the story when the story started running him.

Couldn't have wrecked a villain better myself.

[Souhiro]

Tarquin can be proud of his son.

He had the order against ropes. He could have easily dispatched them. He was about to win. Two times. It was Elan's trust in his group, was his leadership, the key to save the group.

Also, He says that "Elan didn't lose anything" and "He didn't grew a bit". Looks that Holy Word affected him somehow, because he seems to be deaf:

:elan: "I'm not a twin anymore"

And he did INDEED grow.He didn't see this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/Q90qwd8wreksdf887.gif) comic

[wyrmhole]

Elan has allowed Tarquin to destroy himself, figuratively and perhaps literally. His army is decimated, his family utterly lost to him, and he may not be able to keep control of his empire.

Erm, well, this army may be decimated (literally), I don't think that leaves Tarquin close to unable to continue his non-son-related plans. The Empire is probably slightly inconvenienced at most by the resources he wasted, and that's just one of the three under his group's control.

Agree with everything else, though -- it was the perfect victory for Elan over his father!

[Juhn]

Worst of all, Tarquin thinks the story had a bad ending, but doesn't seem to realize that he walked right into a great one - that ending just happens to be a Greek tragedy. Nothing that's happened to Tarquin here was inflicted by anyone but Tarquin himself.I don't know if Tarquin's capable of seeing himself as the hero/protagonist in the story. He's been "the villain" since back in his adventuring days.

[DrBurr]

Erm, well, this army may be decimated (literally), I don't think that leaves Tarquin close to unable to continue his non-son-related plans. The Empire is probably slightly inconvenienced at most by the resources he wasted, and that's just one of the three under his group's control.

Agree with everything else, though -- it was the perfect victory for Elan over his father!

The only asset Tarquin really lost was Malack, likely that'll shake up the dynamic abit but I wouldn't expect this to cause the empires to collapse

I thought the ending was fitting of the story arc.

[Lord Raziere]

Called it!

Elan "beat" Tarquin in the most Chaotic way possible for a bard - he broke convention. Tarquin overextended himself, expecting some impossibly dramatic conclusion, and tossed all his hard-earned resources to the wind.

Elan has allowed Tarquin to destroy himself, figuratively and perhaps literally. His army is decimated, his family utterly lost to him, and he may not be able to keep control of his empire. Worst of all, Tarquin thinks the story had a bad ending, but doesn't seem to realize that he walked right into a great one - that ending just happens to be a Greek tragedy. Nothing that's happened to Tarquin here was inflicted by anyone but Tarquin himself.

And really, that's the best part - he doesn't see the narrative anymore. He stopped running the story when the story started running him.

Couldn't have wrecked a villain better myself.

ah yes, I think I predicted the greek tragedy thing to. sadly can't link it though.

but then again, aren't all great villains about tragedy? destroying themselves through their own mistakes?

[The Oni]

I don't know if Tarquin's capable of seeing himself as the hero/protagonist in the story. He's been "the villain" since back in his adventuring days.

True, but the hero isn't always the protagonist, and the Greek hero tends to be noticeably less constrained by morality than modern heroes.

More to the point, when an army that size is routed, and the citizens get wind of it? I really would expect a revolution. Dictators don't last when they show signs of weakness, and Tarquin just did.

[Anarion]

True, but the hero isn't always the protagonist, and the Greek hero tends to be noticeably less constrained by morality than modern heroes.

More to the point, when an army that size is routed, and the citizens get wind of it? I really would expect a revolution. Dictators don't last when they show signs of weakness, and Tarquin just did.

Nah, his kingdom is probably fine. He went out into the desert with an army and they got beaten up. But so what? There are other armies and other strong characters. Considering that the entire army ended up getting beaten up by 6 moderately high level adventurers, and the Empires of Blood, Sweat, and Tears appear to be full of such people, there's no way that one army was anywhere near the entirety of state forces.

The biggest thing Tarquin would need to worry about going back is showing up all beaten up and with his clothes torn. Because THAT makes him look weak.

[Isador Levi]

I feel that part of Elan's growth (as indicated in his response to the illusion) is in his realisation that this whole multi-layered empire thing is really big and complicated and not really something they can easily solve while Xykon is still making a beeline for the last gate, so just killing Tarkin is insufficient to have much effect on it and his focus needs to be elsewhere.

Plus, they've still got three other people to run the scheme.

That said, with Malack gone, their distribution is probably a bit more skewed to lack somebody to keep an eye on Tarkin, and having his flow of narrative might shock him up enough that his usefulness to the rest is reduced significantly.

[Geordnet]

Erm, well, this army may be decimated (literally)
Not Quite. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_%28Roman_army%29)

Although Tarquin may well Decimate the survivors. :smallamused:

[goodyarn]

I assume what happens next is that Tarquin sets out to make himself the main villain. He never succeeds, and his defeat becomes increasingly bitter as he fails, but I think that's his next move. I don't think this is the end.

[BobTheDog]

The biggest thing Tarquin would need to worry about going back is showing up all beaten up and with his clothes torn. Because THAT makes him look weak.

He still has his ring of regeneration, which should take care of that (including the clothes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html)).

[rbetieh]

You know, I find it rather strange that Tarquin, the man who said there is no end just a point at which a storyteller stops talking, is judging this scene as an ending.

Sure it's a hero rides off into the sunset scene, but this is a Star Trek Ending (http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2012/6/24/how-to-explain-why-star-trek-is-much-better-than-star-wars.html).

I mean seriously, this has made-for-tv-movie written all over it. OOTS-2 Wrath of Tarquin.

[wyrmhole]

Not Quite. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_%28Roman_army%29)

Although Tarquin may well Decimate the survivors. :smallamused:

I meant literal as in what the term literally means, "removal of a tenth", not the execution-style manner the Romans used it in, but fair enough.

[veti]

The only asset Tarquin really lost was Malack, likely that'll shake up the dynamic abit but I wouldn't expect this to cause the empires to collapse

I thought the ending was fitting of the story arc.

I think Malack was probably the only thing keeping Tarquin sane enough to run a kingdom. I have a lousy record of predicting the Giant, but my guess for Tarquin's next move is that he doesn't settle back into his quiet billet running the empire, but instead sets out to deal with Elan.

Not sure what that will entail, exactly. Elan just told him that he's not the real villain, and if that's true, then he's in a lot of trouble. Therefore, it can't be true. Or if it is, then it has to be made untrue as quickly as possible.

If you were Tarquin, how would you set about becoming the main villain? The obvious answer - kill Xykon - isn't on the cards, because that would require his whole team, and I doubt they're going to indulge him to the extent of abandoning their cosy billets to go off and play a high-risk quest like that.

So how about: Tarquin, alone (and mightily pissed), goes through the Rift? That would establish so much mystery about his destiny that Elan would have to follow him, sooner or later.

[Emanick]

I think Malack was probably the only thing keeping Tarquin sane enough to run a kingdom. I have a lousy record of predicting the Giant, but my guess for Tarquin's next move is that he doesn't settle back into his quiet billet running the empire, but instead sets out to deal with Elan.

Not sure what that will entail, exactly. Elan just told him that he's not the real villain, and if that's true, then he's in a lot of trouble. Therefore, it can't be true. Or if it is, then it has to be made untrue as quickly as possible.

If you were Tarquin, how would you set about becoming the main villain? The obvious answer - kill Xykon - isn't on the cards, because that would require his whole team, and I doubt they're going to indulge him to the extent of abandoning their cosy billets to go off and play a high-risk quest like that.

So how about: Tarquin, alone (and mightily pissed), goes through the Rift? That would establish so much mystery about his destiny that Elan would have to follow him, sooner or later.

I doubt Malack was the only one capable of keeping Tarquin sane. Remember, he's teamed up with other members of his squad in the past, such as Miron.

Otherwise, love the theory, though I can't picture how it would come about.

[Morty]

I think that Taqruin's team-mates might well force him to stay and fix the mess that he's caused, thus preventing him from going after Elan or at least delaying him.

[BaronOfHell]

Join the club, General T.

That said, I really hope that Tarquin won't simply take over Nale's role in the story. I had sympathy for Nale, because in my opinion he could still grow as a villain, but after this arc, I tend to agree with what I believe is the general opinion, that the story has outgrown Nale's level.
I think it's nice to consider that there exists more roles than those which have been occupied and Tarquin will be a his own character in the story, like any other major recurring character.

[Math_Mage]

You know, I find it rather strange that Tarquin, the man who said there is no end just a point at which a storyteller stops talking, is judging this scene as an ending.

Sure it's a hero rides off into the sunset scene, but this is a Star Trek Ending (http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2012/6/24/how-to-explain-why-star-trek-is-much-better-than-star-wars.html).

I mean seriously, this has made-for-tv-movie written all over it. OOTS-2 Wrath of Tarquin.
Nice spot.

[Hodorius]

Since Tarquin is the "Elan" of his team, perhaps Laurin will teleport in (maybe Tarquin has a way of communicating his location?), tell him he's been acting like a moron, but then pat him on the back and tell him "better luck next time".

Edit- maybe should have posted this in the Discussion thread for the comics- but this is what might happen next as far as Tarquin's life is concerned (assuming he doesn't just go nuts and die of thirst in the desert- which would be narratively satisfying)

[Boring McReader]

The book's not over yet. Tarquin could still receive a far more permanent ending. His team could gate in and tell him he's outlived his usefulness, leaving him alone, stranded, and without a country to return to. He could be ambushed and defeated by one or more of the strong NPC's he's wronged in the past. Or he could wander the desert forever broken, making no attempt to return to his base.

If he does make it out of the desert alive and capable of thought, it's hard to imagine him sitting idle. He'd be compelled to chase after Elan again, for closure if nothing else. He doesn't seem the type to realize his only remaining options are staying alive as a footnote or dying as an overplayed secondary villain.

[Anarion]

Or he could wander the desert forever broken, making no attempt to return to his base.


Little extreme maybe? Your other options were more plausible, but this is getting into just not making sense territory. His son managed to ruin his life in the most thorough way possible, but he's still a very powerful adventurer with an empire and significant resources. Even Laurin wouldn't want him to die, with him owing her a favor.



If he does make it out of the desert alive and capable of thought, it's hard to imagine him sitting idle. He'd be compelled to chase after Elan again, for closure if nothing else. He doesn't seem the type to realize his only remaining options are staying alive as a footnote or dying as an overplayed secondary villain.

The question isn't what he does, it's what the comic has time to show. This is a finite story, not the tale of everything that Elan does for the next 50 years. So, Tarquin could chase after Elan with all the force and power he can muster. But if he doesn't reach his son before they finish up with the gates and Xykon, we'll never see it, and, as far as Tarquin's screentime is concerned, it will never have happened.

[CatgirlTheCrazy]

His team could gate in and tell him he's outlived his usefulness, leaving him alone, stranded, and without a country to return to.

Even if Team Tarquin decides that Tarquin has dangerously bad judgment when it comes to using Empire resources to deal with his family issues, that doesn't completely override the decades of friendship they've had with the guy. I think that if they decide it's necessary to kick him off the team, they will try to give him some non-lethal option, like permanent exile from the Western continent (with Jacinda as insurance if he tries to come back).

It would certainly be interesting if Tarquin's teammates gave him an ultimatum like that: he can pursue his son to the dwarven lands, or he can stay part of their group, but he can't do both. Because there's no way Laurin et al would let him leave the EoB without supervision, potentially for months, and potentially using significant EoB resources, just to pursue a family squabble, and still allow him to come back like it's all ok.

[Bulldog Psion]

It seems highly unlikely that the team will bounce him out. What's the point? What would they gain by doing so? Other than doubling their losses from just Malack to Tarquin and Malack in the same day, I can't see what they would get out of it.

I doubt Tarquin has lost any public "face" because he didn't have much to begin with. That's the whole point of the puppet rulers, after all. Tarquin is just a general to most people. If he shows up with his clothes ragged, nothing will happen beyond him putting on a new set of clothes and going on about his business.

Unless Tarquin is completely insane, I can't see this "destroying" him in any way. Sure, he'll be mad for several days. He'll have a lot of resentment towards Elan on a back burner somewhere. But there's an empire to run, chickens to be disemboweled, and all that kind of stuff.

If Tarquin is totally "destroyed" by what amounts to a mildly clever put-down by a comedian, then he's either too demented to rule as long as he has, or he's a completely unrealistic character.

[Trillium]

Even if Team Tarquin (an ironic name now, right?) starts doubting Tarquin's strategical and tactical abilities now, he is still a very powerful warrior. They can keep him just as a warrior - the way they keep Jacinda, I bet. I doubt she does much ruling.

[Sir_Leorik]

If Tarquin is totally "destroyed" by what amounts to a mildly clever put-down by a comedian, then he's either too demented to rule as long as he has, or he's a completely unrealistic character.

I choose option C) He's delusional, not demented, and Elan dispelled his delusions. That is what has destroyed him, because Tarquin never rational to begin with. Now that his self-delusions are stripped away, he is nothing but a pathetic old man, lost in the desert, wearing some nifty magic items.

[Bulldog Psion]

I choose option C) He's delusional, not demented, and Elan dispelled his delusions. That is what has destroyed him, because Tarquin never rational to begin with. Now that his self-delusions are stripped away, he is nothing but a pathetic old man, lost in the desert, wearing some nifty magic items.

If we describe him as nothing but a pathetic old man, lost in the desert, with four powerful allies, enough levels to take out a small army on his own, vast riches, the resources of several kingdoms at his command, a good-sized army with infantry and dinosaur riders, wearing some nifty magic items...

... then I'm in complete agreement. :smallwink:

[allenw]

At the moment, he has some interesting similarities to Muad'Dib after Dune Messiah.

[Anarion]

At the moment, he has some interesting similarities to Muad'Dib after Dune Messiah.

If the book title has both "Dune" and words in it other than "Dune," I hope that The Giant draws no inspiration from it at all.

[wyrmhole]

If the book title has both "Dune" and words in it other than "Dune," I hope that The Giant draws no inspiration from it at all.

What if it's "How to Draw a Dune or Dunes?" ;)

[Sir_Leorik]

If we describe him as nothing but a pathetic old man, lost in the desert, with four powerful allies, enough levels to take out a small army on his own, vast riches, the resources of several kingdoms at his command, a good-sized army with infantry and dinosaur riders, wearing some nifty magic items...

... then I'm in complete agreement. :smallwink:

No, we're not in agreement. His allies abandoned him in his most desperate hour, when he felt he needed to teach his son a lesson. His friend Malack is dust. Miron is under no obligation to go into the desert and help him. Laurin might, if only to claim her favor, plus another favor for the Wormhole bringing him back to Bleedingham. But let's face it, he's done. All the riches in the world can never change the fact that he is not who thought he was. The illusion is gone, the scales lifted from his eyes. He's nothing but a pathetic old man shouting impotently at his enemies, as they fly away into the sunset.

Like Elan said, he'll live, but he'll never get enjoyment out of life ever again. Tarquin was trying to set up a grand conflict between himself and Elan, all to create a story. That was his new goal. And he failed miserably. Elan is not the hero of this story, Roy is. And Tarquin isn't the villain, Xykon and Redcloak are. (I count them both as the main villains, since they're going for the same goal but have competing interests.) Tarquin can crawl back to Bleedingham, and continue to play three-card-monte with the kingdoms of the Western Continent, but he's now as relevant to the main story as the King of Nowhere or some Druid Councilor in the Elven Homelands are. Whatever relevance he had as Elan's dad is over now, because Elan will never do what Tarquin wants. There are only three possible outcomes that I see for him now: he dies pathetically from dehydration and heat stroke in the desert, Sabine pops up and drains his levels, or Laurin retrieves him and he insists on his party chasing after the OotS, at which point the others all veto the idea.

[SavageWombat]

Too many monsters have slunk back to their thrones after a thorough defeat to brood and plot revenge for it not to be an option with Tarquin. But his sanity has been cracked, if not shattered.

This sentence reads poorly. I need an editor.

[AKA_Bait]

Sabine pops up and drains his levels.

I actually think this would be the most cruel option. To be reduced in the story to a bit player and then reduced in competence to a first level fighter warblade swordsage monkcrossclassthingie warrior and left alive at the mercy of others would be a crowning devastation for Sabine to inflict.

[Porthos]

Too many monsters have slunk back to their thrones after a thorough defeat to brood and plot revenge for it not to be an option with Tarquin. But his sanity has been cracked, if not shattered.

So he'll become a Scenery Chewing Villain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) after his One Bad Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Killing_Joke)? :smallamused:

[geoduck]

Tarquin won't stop pursuing his goal of Getting The Story Right until he's dead, no matter how many times reality punches him in the face. So, no, he won't wander broken in the desert. One way or another he'll get back home and start plotting to chase after Elan again.

[Geordnet]

Unless Tarquin is completely insane
Key words right here.

[allenw]

If the book title has both "Dune" and words in it other than "Dune," I hope that The Giant draws no inspiration from it at all.

Dune dune DUNE! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)

[Crusher]

No, we're not in agreement. His allies abandoned him in his most desperate hour, when he felt he needed to teach his son a lesson. His friend Malack is dust. Miron is under no obligation to go into the desert and help him. Laurin might, if only to claim her favor, plus another favor for the Wormhole bringing him back to Bleedingham. But let's face it, he's done. All the riches in the world can never change the fact that he is not who thought he was. The illusion is gone, the scales lifted from his eyes. He's nothing but a pathetic old man shouting impotently at his enemies, as they fly away into the sunset.

Like Elan said, he'll live, but he'll never get enjoyment out of life ever again. Tarquin was trying to set up a grand conflict between himself and Elan, all to create a story. That was his new goal. And he failed miserably. Elan is not the hero of this story, Roy is. And Tarquin isn't the villain, Xykon and Redcloak are. (I count them both as the main villains, since they're going for the same goal but have competing interests.) Tarquin can crawl back to Bleedingham, and continue to play three-card-monte with the kingdoms of the Western Continent, but he's now as relevant to the main story as the King of Nowhere or some Druid Councilor in the Elven Homelands are. Whatever relevance he had as Elan's dad is over now, because Elan will never do what Tarquin wants. There are only three possible outcomes that I see for him now: he dies pathetically from dehydration and heat stroke in the desert, Sabine pops up and drains his levels, or Laurin retrieves him and he insists on his party chasing after the OotS, at which point the others all veto the idea.

Oh, please. "...never get enjoyment out of life again"? That's just a wee bit melodramatic, don't you think?

Sure, he's had a set-back and he's not as mentally stable as one might like (when it comes to things that actually matter to him, that is, which isn't a very long list as it turns out), but this is a man with immense self-control and a tremendous ability to play for the long-game. Think of the time it must have taken him to put together that book for the prison guards.

He knows that the *overall* story isn't done and that there are chapters yet to come (notice how he refers to the story arc not being done). He's not frustrated that the *story* is ending badly, he's frustrated that the arc/chapter is ending badly. He's going to retreat back to his castle, brood a bit, and plan for his dramatic return much like he was expecting Elan to do. He's in no sense crushed or defeated. Really, the only thing that has him off his game is the realization he doesn't know what's coming next and I think he'll re-find the narrative thread before too long (while off-screen).

[Sir_Leorik]

Oh, please. "...never get enjoyment out of life again"? That's just a wee bit melodramatic, don't you think?

We're talking about Tarquin, right? He's going to milk the melodrama till its dry. Then, hopefully he'll live his life in increasing despair, until Sabine drops by to kill him.

[Deliverance]

We're talking about Tarquin, right? He's going to milk the melodrama till its dry. Then, hopefully he'll live his life in increasing despair, until Sabine drops by to kill him.
And then again, perhaps not.

After all, as tempting as your "he's never felt this way before, he's now nothing but a broken man, the illusion gone, the scales lifted from his eyes" image is - we don't have anything whatsoever to support the notion that this is a unique experience to him.

We actually have one possible counterexample - his initial failure at conquest, following which he was brought back from obscurity by his friend Malack, and later on the adventuring group reunited for this empire scheme, shows that at least once his schemes have faced complete failure with him rebounding from it, but, of course, we don't know how far down he felt himself to be when he faced that failure - we only know how he described it to others years afterwards, where he mostly brushed it off.

So is Tarquin a broken man now? It might be, but it also might not.

I could equally well see a situation where the rest of TT go "Not again; You know how Tarquin is when his stories fail; Now we'll have to jolly him up or he'll sulk for months while concocting impractical lunatic schemes. Jacinda, do that trick with the balls that you do so well, and hopefully he'll fixate on something new."

This to be followed by Tarquin retroactively justifying all his actions until then to himself as really furthering his new and improved true narrative rather than being a failure in the old narrative. Lord knows he has shown the ability to rearrange his own thinking on the fly before, when faced with a more palatable narrative than the one he believes he's engaged in.

If Rich chooses to go with some variant of this one, expect Tarquin to come up with some goal involving the final gate or the Snarlworld that does not squarely focus on Elan, though Elan, being considered part of his own legacy will still have a role to play - and expect him to believe that this narrative is what it was all about all the time, really.