getting a 2nd lv divine spell at lv one?

[Deca4531]

There is a feat for arcane casters called Precocious Apprentice that gives you a 2nd lv spell slot at lv 1, is there a divine version of this feat or a base class that get 2lv spells at lv 1 or 2?

[Darrin]

There is a feat for arcane casters called Precocious Apprentice that gives you a 2nd lv spell slot at lv 1, is there a divine version of this feat or a base class that get 2lv spells at lv 1 or 2?

No. But Versatile Spellcaster should work for clerics/druids. They can cast spontaneously, and know all their spells once they can cast them.

[sideswipe]

No. But Versatile Spellcaster should work for clerics/druids. They can cast spontaneously, and know all their spells once they can cast them.

the point is.... do clerics "know" the second levels spells before they gain the slot. if they only gain knowledge of 2nd level spells once they gain the ability to cast it then versitile spellcaster does not work. as it states in the feat they must know the spell to use the feat

Benifit you can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.

[Viros]

There is a feat for arcane casters called Precocious Apprentice that gives you a 2nd lv spell slot at lv 1, is there a divine version of this feat or a base class that get 2lv spells at lv 1 or 2?

No, but if you can fit it in your build, the feat Alternative Source Spell will let you cast the 2nd level spell from Precocious Apprentice as a divine spell. That's dragon magazine though.

If you can't use dragmag material, Southern Magician is a Faerun feat that achieves something similar, albeit the wording may disqualify it RAW-wise.

[Crake]

the point is.... do clerics "know" the second levels spells before they gain the slot. if they only gain knowledge of 2nd level spells once they gain the ability to cast it then versitile spellcaster does not work. as it states in the feat they must know the spell to use the feat

Benifit you can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.

To elaborate on this, only sorcerers and wizards (and classes that cast spells like them, such as favoured souls, beguilers or archivists) "know" spells, based on the glossary definition of "known" spells. Clerics, druids and other similarly functioning prepared divine casters who pray for their spells don't actually "know" any of the spells on their spell list, they are granted them by their deity, so versatile spellcaster would be completely non-functional for them.

[sideswipe]

To elaborate on this, only sorcerers and wizards (and classes that cast spells like them, such as favoured souls, beguilers or archivists) "know" spells, based on the glossary definition of "known" spells. Clerics, druids and other similarly functioning prepared divine casters who pray for their spells don't actually "know" any of the spells on their spell list, they are granted them by their deity, so versatile spellcaster would be completely non-functional for them.

the line starting benefit was a direct quote from the feat. it requires you know the spell.

rules as intended ban cleric from obtaining the feat as they are a prepared caster but technically they can spontaneous cure/inflict/domains. obtaining the feat.

and both RAI and RAW seem to ban the cleric from actually using the feat. since as you put they dont "know" their spells.

[Deca4531]

ok wat, you guys are misunderstanding me. I don't want to cast spells but the prestige class that I'm looking to use requires me to be able to cast second level divine spells. So I'm looking for a class that gets these spells quickly. Cleric requires third level so if there is a class that game is at 2nd level or a beat that would give me a second level spell slot even if I didn't know any of the spells that would be fine. So you know the prestige class I'm trying to get into is called "Hammer of Moradin"

[giggyex]

ok wat, you guys are misunderstanding me. I don't want to cast spells but the prestige class that I'm looking to use requires me to be able to cast second level divine spells. So I'm looking for a class that gets these spells quickly. Cleric requires third level so if there is a class that game is at 2nd level or a beat that would give me a second level spell slot even if I didn't know any of the spells that would be fine. So you know the prestige class I'm trying to get into is called "Hammer of Moradin"

To get in to HoM you will also need a BaB of 7, 10 ranks in a skill, so you would be able to enter until 7 either way.

[Rebel7284]

ok wat, you guys are misunderstanding me. I don't want to cast spells but the prestige class that I'm looking to use requires me to be able to cast second level divine spells. So I'm looking for a class that gets these spells quickly. Cleric requires third level so if there is a class that game is at 2nd level or a beat that would give me a second level spell slot even if I didn't know any of the spells that would be fine. So you know the prestige class I'm trying to get into is called "Hammer of Moradin"

Ur Priest 2 gets you 2nd level spells in 2 levels.
Divine Crusader also gets you 2nd level spells in 2 levels.

Sanctum Spell may qualify as well, but you have to keep adventuring in your sanctum.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are many ways to cast a spell that counts as a 2nd level spell on a character with only 1st level spell slots. For example:

Sanctum Spell is a +0 metamagic feat that makes an affected spell Heightened by one level when within your designated sanctum. Simply having the feat and having a designated sanctum means your character could prepare a 1st level spell with this metamagic feat, go to his sanctum, and cast it as a 2nd level spell. Since he could do this (but doesn't have to be able to do it right now) he meets any prerequisites that require being able to cast 2nd level spells. A Cleric 3 who's used up all his spells for the day still meets such prerequisites because he could rest and prepare more spells, and just the same a Cleric 1 with Sanctum Spell could prepare a spell with that feat and go to his sanctum to cast it, so he still meets the same prerequisites.

Illumians with the feat Improved Sigil: Krau get to pick up to two specific spells that count as +1 spell level higher for free every time they're cast, without changing the spell slot it's cast from. That means you can just pick a 1st level spell and it's always a 2nd level spell when you cast it, even though it's cast from a 1st level spell slot.

Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. Since divine casters do indeed 'know' their spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#newDivineSpells), a Cleric 1 could spend two 1st level spell slots to cast a 2nd level spell. If there would be any question about whether or not such a character actually knows any 2nd level spells without having 2nd level spell slots, you can also include the feat Magical Training. That gives you a spellbook which you've already put a few 0-level Wizard spells into, and per Rules Compendium you'll be able to learn more spells and add them to it just like a Wizard does. You could put a 2nd level spell in that spellbook, then use Versatile Spellcaster to spend two 1st level Cleric spell slots to cast it. Since you're using your Cleric spellcasting ability, you'll cast it as a divine spell using your Cleric caster level. Wizards of the Coast has officially confirmed that a character can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a spell that's effectively higher level than his caster level would normally allow, their example being a Sorcerer spending two 1st level spell slots to cast an Extended Mage Armor spell.

[Deca4531]

To get in to HoM you will also need a BaB of 7, 10 ranks in a skill, so you would be able to enter until 7 either way.

I want as a little a caster it as possible to gain a second level spell slot, then what levels in fighter followed by hulking hurler then enter this first prestige class. In a perfect world I would like to go cleric 1 fighter 4 hulking hurler 3 HoM - but I need that second level spells slot. I don't think sanctum spell will count because the spell level is the same it's just the caster level as far as I know.

[sideswipe]

That link is a third party site and is not written by wizards of the coast.

That is as valid as this class

Divine Dude
Full base attack, All good saves
First level - gains full Sorcerer and Favoured soul 20th level spellcasting and spells per day.

Its third party on a third party website with no references to being written in any rule book or official WOTC supplement.

Some people may accept it but like i said its as valid as the base class i just invented.

[Dread_Head]

Actually that link is a direct quote of p.180 of the PHB. The d20srd is just a nice user friendly version of the material WOTC made Open Gaming Content (Nearly all of core and a few others like Unearthed Arcana and the XPH). Whilst the d20srd is a third party site I believe it is generally regarded as pretty accurate and it's certainly more valid than the class you just made up.

Could you use Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell in this case to cast one of the spells you know as a 2nd level spell?

[Jack_Simth]

That link is a third party site and is not written by wizards of the coast.However, the Hammer of Moradin is available as an excerpt on WotC's Website (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040305a), so...

You can also get the SRD there (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35), which was imported into d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org), so....

[sideswipe]

Actually that link is a direct quote of p.180 of the PHB. The d20srd is just a nice user friendly version of the material WOTC made Open Gaming Content (Nearly all of core and a few others like Unearthed Arcana and the XPH). Whilst the d20srd is a third party site I believe it is generally regarded as pretty accurate and it's certainly more valid than the class you just made up.

Could you use Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell in this case to cast one of the spells you know as a 2nd level spell?

I concede. you referenced an actual publication.

versatile spellcaster was the original debate. the feat requires you know a higher level spell before hand that is i will repeat. before you use the feat.

you obtain the new spells after obtaining the new spell slot created.

you need to know the spell to create the spell slot using versatile spellcaster.

so in this case you cannot use it. this is a point people forget about the feat.

[Thanatosia]

IMO, Versatile Spellcaster alone is not enough. It gives you a 2nd level spell slot, but you still can't cast any 2nd level spells with it.

But combine it with Highten Spell Metamagic and it works IMO, because Hightened spells DO count in all ways as spells of their hightened level.

[Thurbane]

Favored Soul plus Versatile Spellcaster (add Heighten Spell if required).

[TypoNinja]

the point is.... do clerics "know" the second levels spells before they gain the slot. if they only gain knowledge of 2nd level spells once they gain the ability to cast it then versitile spellcaster does not work. as it states in the feat they must know the spell to use the feat

Benifit you can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.

You can always at least squeeze out the Cure/Inflict or SNA of one level higher.

[Deca4531]

A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list (page 183), provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

you also have to remember that this is lv 1, and must be a dwarf, so i'll only have 1 feat (i cant use flaws)

Versatile Spellcaster might work, but it would be stretching a bit to get a DMs approval to interpret it that way.