halfling melee characters bad or just not optimal

[12owlbears]

I have been told many times that halflings make bad melee characters. but are they divine mind, truenamer, and CW samurai bad or just not as optimal as half-orc, half-giant, or goliath melee characters. The only major disadvantages they have(as far as I can tell) are the limited speed and only having access to the small versions of weapons.

[Taveena]

Well, the strength penalty isn't great, but for a Rogue or other class that relies on something other than strength for damage, they're arguably BETTER. (Especially with Weapon Finesse, which most of them will be taking anyway.) And, well, Strongheart Halfling is amazing. Still, in the end, the weapon's base damage is negligible at higher levels, and the difference between 18 strength and 16 strength is rarely going to be enough to make you regret your decision.

[A.A.King]

In my opinion they work out just fine, it really depends on the kind of melee character you make. They make great melee rogues, which mostly care about sneak attack damage. Yeah, IMO they are "not optimal", and you definitely shouldn't make them Strenght focused (it might work, and it might be very decent in a lower op game but it's just not very halfling), but they are very optimal choices for Dexterity based strategies like Two Weapon Fighting Sneak Attack Rogue, or anything else which is focused on some kind of extra damage.

[Callin]

And the typical -2 Str. Other than that if i am going more dexterous (good for small creatures) i like em. Grab a class that gives bonus damage to offset the small weapons or get a claw attack with improved nat weapon feat pick up Assassins Stance and go to town.

All in all they can be good but not at the straight up brawl type

[sideswipe]

They have a negative strength modifier, no racial traits that aid melee. and no racial feats and such that can be taken to make them better at melee.

That being said, they are not the worst race in the world for melee.

Having the extra dex, and being smaller size is a plus with weapon finesse

The unearthed arcana water halfling (water elemental ancestor) has -2 str +2 dex +2 con for no level adjustment. so as a rogue type secondary attacker they are playable.

They are nowhere near optimised. but they are not unusable.
This fact seems to be forgotten at the playground a lot.
Just because they aren't the perfect race/class combo doesn't mean they are not playable.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

No, they're never that bad.

Assuming you're doing a Strength based build; you have -1 damage from a smaller weapon and -1 1/2 damage from strengh compared to a human or dwarf, before multipliers.

In exchange you're getting +1 AC from size, +1 AC from Dex and +1 to hit from size. That's not a terrible trade-off. If people are playing Feral, half-minotaur, Mineral Warrior Water Orcs than ya Halflings are terrible by comparison, but so are all the PHB races.

In a Dexterity based buildthat uses Dex for hit and damage halfling can be one of the best races, especially if you use Strongheart Halfling which gets a bonus feat instead of +1 to all saves.

[Adverb]

They make bad melee threats at low levels, but the higher you go, the less important your weapon die is, and the more ways you have to make your strength penalty not an issue.

A lot of melee builds like going large for reach, which is probably a bad idea with a halfling. But there's tons of dex-heavy builds that work, the halfling rogue is iconic and sneak attack doesn't shrink like weapon dice do, and there's a fair number of feats that say "win more better against an opponent larger than you" which can be combined to hilarious effect.

At first level you pretty much want to be a barbarian with a greatsword, but halflings catch up eventually.

[Pluto!]

They suck at the things mundane melee can generally do to be useful: they suck at tripping or bull rushing, an armored halfling charges slower than many monsters move, an Enlarge effect will not extend their reach and they have basically no resistance to opposing trips or grapples.

They have a few advantages: precision or other nonstandard damage types like Duskblade channeling can be helped by their extra defenses and often sweet utility abilities, mounted characters can often be logistically easier and there are a couple niche abilities like Confound the Bigfolk or Halfling Outrider that require small races or small size.

I would avoid them like the plague for a melee character like a Fighter or Barbarian, be kind of indifferent on something like a Duskblade or Swordsage that doesn't rely on attack and combat maneuver rolls, and actually try to go with a small race on an evasive precision build like Rogues or the occasional niche small-sized warrior (supermount, flying mount Druid, I May Be Tiny But You're Dead-spinoffs).

[Axinian]

They make much better Dex-based melee characters. However, Halfling Barbarian isn't too bad. Rage helps you keep pace and gives you a net gain on strength rather than a below-par strength.

[tadkins]

No melee-based handbook anywhere seems to recognize the little guys as a viable choice. With my main RPG background attributed to MMOs this goes against my belief system, where in those games gnomes and halflings can tank things as well as the ogres and minotaurs of the world.

That said, I suppose it does present a nice challenge though. In regards to a melee-based character, you could tough it out as a halfling instead of going the easy goliath route?

[Snowbluff]

I dislike them as melee and I hate hate HATE them as rogues. 20 foot movement speed. It's beyond awful. Either be a Whisper Gnome or get on a horse/be a paladin.

[Nerd-o-rama]

In addition to the benefits of playing a Dex/precision-damage based build, they're also just about the only way to play a mounted character indoors.

Of course they also lose several of the advantages of being mounted at the same time (those minor damage penalties hurt more when you multiply them with ubercharger shenanigans, and they don't get extra space/reach out of it), but grab a Riding Dog and a few Ride ranks for your Rogue and suddenly that 20' movement speed isn't so much of a problem...(later on grab something that can stick to walls and sneak as well as you can for even more fun).

[Snowbluff]

Halfling Druids/Paladins are the only paladins. :smalltongue:

[Astroturtle]

I've had fun with a Melee Halfling Binder.

Of course, I was being cheesy by combining the 'Wield a large adamantine warhammer in one hand' ability, Paimon's Dance of Death and a Ring of Expeditious Retreat as well as a few other things.. But dang it was hilarious having my little halfling tumbling around the battlefield and swinging around a hammer bigger than she was.

[Eldariel]

The principal issue is the size. You can't get Large easily as a Halfling which locks you out of various Reach-builds. It also makes Dungeoncrasher and such less efficient. Far as the "small-only styles" and charging and such goes, they're just fine.

Any ToB-class functions just fine as a Halfling too. -2 Strength and smaller weapon damage dice are ultimately not that big of a deal as long as you're not deriving too many things off Strength. Finesse-warriors are naturally more than fine especially with e.g. Shadow Blade to get Dex as damage on both hands.

[Darth Stabber]

Halfling swordsage is pretty good, halfling skill monkey types can be very scary in melee if you can set up flanks or have easy access to great invisibility.

[Adverb]

No melee-based handbook anywhere seems to recognize the little guys as a viable choice.

...have you not read very many of these?

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1059231

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133924

etc.

Whisper Gnomes seem more popular than halflings for most melee builds, but that's because they're a good LA+1 hiding in an LA+0 wrapper.

[(Un)Inspired]

I've had fun with a Melee Halfling Binder.

Of course, I was being cheesy by combining the 'Wield a large adamantine warhammer in one hand' ability, Paimon's Dance of Death and a Ring of Expeditious Retreat as well as a few other things.. But dang it was hilarious having my little halfling tumbling around the battlefield and swinging around a hammer bigger than she was.

That sounds incredibly fun. I'd like to try playing a halfling binder.

As several people have said before me they can make pretty awesome swordsages. I don't really like seeing halfling melee rogues because

A: it's painfully cliche
B: their 20' speed basically strands them in the danger zone.

As a shadow hand/tiger claw specialized swordsage you can get both your dex and character level to damage and make just serious numbers of attacks. Add in a collision sword of subtlety for even more damage then just shadow teleport away.

The small size, dex bonus and bonus to saves (or extra feat) are all great for this type of character.

[tadkins]

...have you not read very many of these?

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1059231

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133924

etc.

Whisper Gnomes seem more popular than halflings for most melee builds, but that's because they're a good LA+1 hiding in an LA+0 wrapper.

I have not. I just know that there are no short races listed in the handbook of one of my favorite classes, the Duskblade.

And yep, Whisper Gnomes are a short race done right.

[Soranar]

the best melee halfling is probably a mounted charger

being small, their mounts only need to be medium sized and fit anywhere a normal mount would fit

medium mounts are often superior to their larger counterparts (a riding dog is fairly powerful at lower levels)

the str difference becomes fairly minor on a mounted charger, especially since the extra feat granted by strongheart halfling lets you get a combo working faster

they have access to unique mounted charger classes (halfling outrider)

[Darth Stabber]

I have not. I just know that there are no short races listed in the handbook of one of my favorite classes, the Duskblade.

And yep, Whisper Gnomes are a short race done right.

Whisper gnomes are too good for 0LA. They are a short race overdone. And the fact that they are gnomes is infuriating, they're so ungnomy.

[Captnq]

Here's the EVD entry under scissor sword.



Editor (Running With Scissors): Okay, Assuming that you want to go with RAW over RAI, there is a way to wield this thing as a normal humanoid. Balanced (+2) states, “A creature one size smaller than the weapon can use it in one hand” and Hornblade (halfling/gnome only) (+1) states, “a hornblade weapon is treated as one size category smaller than its actual size” So, because balanced says that a smaller creature can use it in one hand, and hornblade makes the effective size of the weapon smaller, they stack. So, a halfling could wield a large Balanced Hornblade Scissor Sword (3d8) in one hand. A normal humanoid could wield it without the hornblade. I have no idea what that would look like. I assume the magic takes over the other five hands needed, so it works just fine. Note, that this does not stack with monkey grip or other such feats.


Add teleporting and throwing just so you can hurl them at people and they return to your hands every round at the start of your turn. Remember, halflings get bonuses to throwing.

[Faily]

Small is underestimated. :smallbiggrin:

I didn't like Small races at first, until I played my first Halfling. We did random-rolls of Race + Class combination, and I ended up with Halfling Swashbuckler. Looking through the available prestige-classes and feats, there are many fun things out there. :smallcool: Swordsage works really well for Halflings too, especially when you get Giant Killing Style. As people have said above me, the weapon damage-die is not really where it's at, it's every other static bonus or bonus dice you add on top of that.

And of course, the first magic item you pick up is Boots of Striding and Springing. But before that, you're just as slow as the Cleric in their heavy armor, or the Fighter in their heavy armor, or the Paladin in their heavy armor, or the Dwarf, etc...

[Slipperychicken]

If you're relying on Power Attack for most of your damage anyway, the base weapon and strength bonus eventually stop mattering. You don't lose out on attack bonus, which is all that really matters in terms of Power Attack.


the best melee halfling is probably a mounted charger

being small, their mounts only need to be medium sized and fit anywhere a normal mount would fit

Yeah, if you're going to run a charger build, halflings are a good choice. You can also get a very nice move speed out of the mount (usually 50-80 feet). Give your Halfling a lance, a mount, and a pouncebarian level, and suddenly you start to pity anything on the wrong side of that charge.

[Faily]

Also, the Halfling Outrider PrC isn't too shabby. Sure, it's no high-tier class, but it's not bad either. It can charge around corners, after all. :smallbiggrin:

That it allows for stacking with Animal Companion or Mount is a nice touch too, so you can enter with a Ranger, Druid or Paladin, and still increase your poor little pet's abilities.

[Pluto!]

Plus, it stacks with Companion AND Mount, so there's the old Supermount trick with Devoted Tracker.

[Spore]

a) Riders have an advantage. Their mounts aren't 2x2 size, but normal sized while not suffering terrible penalties.

b) Weapon Finesse builds.

c) Extra damage builds. If you get class features that add static damage bonuses to your damage, you might as well be small and use a shield to maximize your AC while dealing with your enemies.

d) AC builds. You start off small, and reduce person and other nifty stuff takes off from an additional +2 AC from Dex and being small.

[StreamOfTheSky]

OP, I really can't recommend halflings for melee in general, but they're good as a mounted lance charge build. All small races are, because their mounts can actually fit everywhere. And halflings come with the nice Halfling Outrider prestige class.

EDIT: Oops, Outrider was already mentioned. I really like the class, though. :smallsmile:


Whisper gnomes are too good for 0LA. They are a short race overdone. And the fact that they are gnomes is infuriating, they're so ungnomy.

No, they're the only small race that doesn't utterly suck (other than for being a caster).

Their benefits are pretty comparable to dwarves. And the only types of builds that will actually care about their benefits are rogue-types and finesse fighters, hardly the cream of the d20 crop. Casters would much rather have normal gnome and their juicy illusion save DC boost.

If they were +1 LA, no one would ever play them because they're not worth +1 LA. Granted a lot of +1 LA races aren't, but why the need to add yet another one?

[Eldariel]

Iono, Whisper Gnome casters are pretty good for lower level play. 30' move speed is tasty for casters early on as are the stealth bonuses. It might not be their primary function but it does help keep them alive over the levels where one arrow might be lethal and scouting and first strike mean everything (but spells don't autowin those aspects yet, nor are there enough disposable slots to really use for much beyond combat).

[Darth Stabber]

OP, I really can't recommend halflings for melee in general, but they're good as a mounted lance charge build. All small races are, because their mounts can actually fit everywhere. And halflings come with the nice Halfling Outrider prestige class.

EDIT: Oops, Outrider was already mentioned. I really like the class, though. :smallsmile:



No, they're the only small race that doesn't utterly suck (other than for being a caster).

Their benefits are pretty comparable to dwarves. And the only types of builds that will actually care about their benefits are rogue-types and finesse fighters, hardly the cream of the d20 crop. Casters would much rather have normal gnome and their juicy illusion save DC boost.

If they were +1 LA, no one would ever play them because they're not worth +1 LA. Granted a lot of +1 LA races aren't, but why the need to add yet another one?

They're better than almost any +1 LA race out there, and unless you plan on being a bard, sorcerer, or specialist illusionist, whisper gnome is stronger than rock gnome. There is no other 0LA race that is that strong in it's wheelhouse, human maybe close, but human's wheelhouse is everything.