A test for the paladin's sword

[Kol Korran]

Hey there folks, I'm looking for some creative ideas.

The situation: My party is playing Paizo's Wrath of the Righteous AP. [Some spoilers from here on, so be warned!] The PCs city, a crusader's main outpost to fight demons, came under attack and was ruined. The party will soon travel it's demon and cultists dominated streets, face horror, fiendish acts and more. The party will be level 3 by this part.

Now, The adventure puts a special weapon, a long sword with some minor powers to begin with, but which gains great power and become a significant holy weapon as the campaign progress. I disliked the initial placement of it (The chest of some minor cultist), and wish to make a special encounter/s to represent a more special/ befitting/ worthy of legend finding of the sword.

This needs to happen somewhere in the city, and I would like it to be a special challenge, both to the party, but in some ways to the paladin himself.

Some additional info if you need it:
- The sword was the legendary sword of an equal legendary paladin demon hunter. It was in a sort of garrison that was taken by the demon forces. I would like to have a story of how it was taken from there, and not in the demons' possession, but I'm ok with a different story.
- The sword's initial build is a blessed cold iron +1 sword that can shed light.
- The main antagonists are demons of course, tieflings, but also cultists of Locust swarm great demon, and another demon lord of mysteries, mazes and minotaurs. But you can put any horrific/ "cliche evil" stuff here- undead, aberrations, and so on.
- The party consists of a cleric, a ninja (sort of rogue- monk mix), an evoker, and a ranger focused on two handed fighting (NOT 2 weapons. 1 weapon, two handed). And the paladin
- The paladin is a follower of Iomedae (General goddess of justice, good, fighting evil), and fights with his long sword and spiked light shield if it matters.

Any ideas would be welcomed. I'm aiming that the paladin will remember this moment, a moment of triumph and destiny sorta... I think you get the idea.
Also, the sword is called "Radiance" in the module, I'd love it if you can think of better names for it. (Though my Idea is that the paladin should name it himself :smallamused:)

Thanks a lot! :smallsmile:
Kol.

[Pinkie Pyro]

My suggestion? blackgaurd/antipaladin/whatever fights the party with it. short, sweet, tragic. fluffwise? legendary paladin fell, became blackguard, somehow got level drained to be closer to the parties' level, still has sword, yadda yadda.

[Nettlekid]

The specifics aren't coming to mind at the moment, but my first thought upon reading this was that the sword should indeed have been taken by the demons in the raid, and for some reason be wielded by one of the first boss-type demons (not like a REALLY strong demon, but one that's the standard in video games where the boss of one world ends up becoming a standard enemy like three worlds later) who doesn't know/can't use its power, but it doesn't dull and it's a good piece of steel regardless so he likes it. In the fight, the demon targets the Paladin and fights for a while. When the Paladin is close to winning, the demon Sunders his current longsword with the holy sword. However, in a sort of Harry Potter Elder Wand type deal, the sword recognizes that to be used by a demon to slay a Paladin, which is exactly the opposite of what it should be doing, is WRONG and it causes a backlash (fluff it as a variant of the classic "evil creatures take a negative level" thing) which Stuns the demon for a round. In being Stunned, the demon drops everything he's holding, including the longsword. The Paladin, in need of a new weapon, grabs it off the ground and finishes off the demon, unlocking the minor powers of the weapon in the process.

[(Un)Inspired]

Have the sword be stuck in a pedestal. Only a really passionate kiss to its pomel will let it slide freely from the pedestal and into the hands of a noble soul. Only your paladin has high enough charisma to deliver the kiss necessary to free the sword from eternal, stony bondage.

[danzibr]

The specifics aren't coming to mind at the moment, but my first thought upon reading this was that the sword should indeed have been taken by the demons in the raid, and for some reason be wielded by one of the first boss-type demons (not like a REALLY strong demon, but one that's the standard in video games where the boss of one world ends up becoming a standard enemy like three worlds later) who doesn't know/can't use its power, but it doesn't dull and it's a good piece of steel regardless so he likes it. In the fight, the demon targets the Paladin and fights for a while. When the Paladin is close to winning, the demon Sunders his current longsword with the holy sword. However, in a sort of Harry Potter Elder Wand type deal, the sword recognizes that to be used by a demon to slay a Paladin, which is exactly the opposite of what it should be doing, is WRONG and it causes a backlash (fluff it as a variant of the classic "evil creatures take a negative level" thing) which Stuns the demon for a round. In being Stunned, the demon drops everything he's holding, including the longsword. The Paladin, in need of a new weapon, grabs it off the ground and finishes off the demon, unlocking the minor powers of the weapon in the process.


Have the sword be stuck in a pedestal. Only a really passion kiss to its pomel will let it slide freely from the pedestal and into the hands of a noble soul. Only your paladin has high enough charisma to deliver the kiss necessary to free the sword from eternal, stony bondage.
I don't know whic one of these I like more :P

[Coidzor]

The basic, obvious story that comes to mind would be something like a squire got sent off to at least ensure that the relic got into hands that could continue to use it rather than have it be lost in a hopeless battle, ran afoul of some kind of ne'er-do-well or was corrupted by something-or-other(I'm sure there's many, many options here) and forgot the significance of what it was, either way, the creature possessing it just understands that it was valuable and didn't want to give it up to the demons and so hid it & is protecting it covetously.

[GreenETC]

My first thought when it comes to why a Paladin's sword is not in the hands of demons would be to have the Paladin felled at the location of the sword, where it became lodged and immobile until one of righteous enough blood removes it, which none of the demons possibly can.

[Bigbeefie]

Whats so bad about the sword being stolen from a museum to be later Tainted at the Corruption forge and to be used for the furtherance of evil?
Radiance is a beautiful sword.
But Honestly are you just getting the feeling the player needs to earn this more? Because they will be going through trials to unlock its full power which if they skip over doing could prevent it from growing in power later. They will also be gifted with a mass of cool loot that at some points you question did we earn it. This campaign is suppose to make the PCs feel like utter bad asses.

our groups paladin uses a bow and keeps radiance as a back up weapon but has completed the first trial to unlock its power to a +2 Cold iron long sword and still doesn't intend on using it...just bringing it along as a torch.

[Kol Korran]

Thanks for the quick replies! Here are some thoughts regarding them.


My suggestion? blackgaurd/antipaladin/whatever fights the party with it. short, sweet, tragic. fluffwise? legendary paladin fell, became blackguard, somehow got level drained to be closer to the parties' level, still has sword, yadda yadda.
There is an antipaladin coming up in the next adventure, and the legendary paladin is long dead. But I get the idea of an "opposite evil" kind of foe. I'l think about it, maybe dos something on thosel ines, though not exactly the same.


<The sword in the hands of a miniboss demon. My group rolls all the dice on the table, I can't fudge or decree things like the paladin's weapon being so easily sundered. Also, the party might act in many unexpected ways to stop the demon from being able to do so. I can't rely on exact script, but rather create a situation with enough potential so that I can use it whatever comes.

The tough demon holding the sword is an interesting idea, but it lacks the "moment of special destiny" about finding the sword. It is still, mostly, just loot from a strong demon.

I do think I sense you meant something bigger though. Care to elaborate?



Have the sword be stuck in a pedestal. Only a really passionate kiss to its pomel will let it slide freely from the pedestal and into the hands of a noble soul. Only your paladin has high enough charisma to deliver the kiss necessary to free the sword from eternal, stony bondage.
AND


My first thought when it comes to why a Paladin's sword is not in the hands of demons would be to have the Paladin felled at the location of the sword, where it became lodged and immobile until one of righteous enough blood removes it, which none of the demons possibly can.

So both ideas are a sort of an Excalibur "right to claim" fiats to get the sword. While they do feel right in giving this an air of a special occurrence and such, where is the challenge? The PC needs to earn it. It needs to be the reward of an especially harrowing experience. Your thoughts?


The basic, obvious story that comes to mind would be something like a squire got sent off to at least ensure that the relic got into hands that could continue to use it rather than have it be lost in a hopeless battle, ran afoul of some kind of ne'er-do-well or was corrupted by something-or-other(I'm sure there's many, many options here) and forgot the significance of what it was, either way, the creature possessing it just understands that it was valuable and didn't want to give it up to the demons and so hid it & is protecting it covetously.

This seems to have good potential, as I get the feeling this is a specific type of demon/ power/ personality. And dealing with some sort of possession may be a good an interesting test for a paladin. The paladin himself has a trait that enables him to reroll against charms and possessions. Hmmmm... Very interesting... I would need to look up/ brew fitting options... :smallamused:


Whats so bad about the sword being stolen from a museum to be later Tainted at the Corruption forge and to be used for the furtherance of evil?
Radiance is a beautiful sword.
But Honestly are you just getting the feeling the player needs to earn this more? Because they will be going through trials to unlock its full power which if they skip over doing could prevent it from growing in power later. They will also be gifted with a mass of cool loot that at some points you question did we earn it. This campaign is suppose to make the PCs feel like utter bad asses.

our groups paladin uses a bow and keeps radiance as a back up weapon but has completed the first trial to unlock its power to a +2 Cold iron long sword and still doesn't intend on using it...just bringing it along as a torch.
I have no problem with the story of Why Radiance was stolen, I do have a problem of her being a loot for defeating Hosilla, A fairly minor andnot THEMATICALLY interesting villain. It feels just like another loot.
I Just read the second module, and we'll come with unlocking the sword's power when I come to it, but it's obvious that the campaign intended Radiance to be a BIG thing. If the paladi nwishes to not use it, I won't mind. BUT if he DOES wishes to treat it as a legendary weapon (And I think it can be made legendary, away from books) then I want it to FEEL that way! It needs to be mroe memorable than "We killed some cultist on our way to the surface, and happened to find this sword, and what do you know? It happens to be a holy-avengar-in-the-making!"
It feels a bit cheap to me.
------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so here is an idea that I had in mind... The party get sets up, or needs to get into a big public bath house (Perhaps there are prisoners there) where demons sacrifice people to... something, they call "The many". Preferably they know of Someone who was thrown inside/ hid inside, that held some powerful item/ sword (Need to work on it). The bath house gets filled with steam, but blood tainted steam, from all the past victims, and there are bodies EVERYWHERE. The doors come closing behind them, locking them in. And from the steam comes... the many- a Gibbering mouther (possibly templated) who speaks in many maddened voices of it's past victims. (If I use my version of the mouther, in my sig, it can also unconsciously read minds and secret, blabbering about, making it personal) As it talks and slids through the mist, it may attack some, but there are other dangers: The mist itself may cause a weakening/ blooding effect, and some of the bodies may also rise (Zombies? Ghouls? Simple ghosts capable mostly of possession?)

The focus of the encounter is the stress from the hazardous fighting conditions, but also the maddening that the gibbering mouther brings, both with it's power, but also with it's maddening talks. Cue in some very disturbing music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWEiqR19jq8&list=PL59847276F28E533C) which later becomes more heroic Possibly something like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9mi__FaFhc)

How does the sword comes into this? Not sure, need a way to work on it. Some thoughts:
- The sword is stuck in the Mouther, And maybe due to templates, Is the only weapon that can reasonably pass it's DR (DR 10 or 15/ good and cold iron? Though the main damage dealer can bypass even that)
- Or perhaps mroe fair to the party- the Mouther, possibly by being fiendish, gains regeneration feeding upon the souls of the tormented spirits here. The party must find a way to free these spirits, in battle, in order to relieve the Mouther of it's power. Possibly a diplomacy against the spirits with the mouther using some skill to baffle them (Bluff? Intimidate?)
- Or on a similar venue, working on what was suggested above- the sword is held by the spirits, not enabling anyone to wield it, not letting the demons take it (The squire or whomever took the sword and ran got stuck here, and before dying made a special vow/ pact. bond that the spirits hold it in place till someone worthy proves themselves.

Thoughts?

[kiapet]

The party could be contacted by a good NPC, perhaps a friend of the paladin's or another paladin, who managed to sneak the sword out of the garrison before it fell. The NPC could send a letter or Sending or something emphasizing the importance of the sword and begging the party and the paladin in particular to come help them defend it. When the party gets there, the NPC has been killed and looted by whatever baddies you want them to fight. The party would either have to track the baddies down or would run into them further down the line. Either way they would eventually have the chance to avenge the NPC and recover the sword.

[GreenETC]

I actually like the fog idea, since the sword can shed light. Make the sword be somewhere in the fog and glow brighter when the paladin moves towards it. Would give a nice feel of "finding the light in the dark" which seems like the overall feel of the campaign.

[Thumperganker]

I would like to mention that just because something becomes or is legendary doesn't mean it has to start legendary, or have an big huge "here it is" moment.

Also i would suggest that if you want to make the sword the main focus for the encounter, start with it as the main focus for the encounter. If you add zombies, blood mist, mouther, some friend/ally trapped, someone gets a bath etc. etc. etc. the sword as the prize may seem tagged on. If the journey is for the sword it becomes more important than the sword was found with the rest of the loot.
*Because of the comment about the fog: You don't have to have them going into the place looking specifically for the sword, but it should be the important thing

Depending on your time frame from when the paladin died, it could be a sword in the stone deal, sure this is suppose to be an awesome sword but everyone has forgotten about it by now that its just legend.

As a dm, i would suggest you don't roll your dice in front of your players. There is no need for them to see the numbers, the numbers can give them a lot of information that they aren't suppose to know. It can be more interesting for the players not knowing

Though you may not be able to control the rolls of everyone you should be able to, unless you are new to being a dm, influence the players enough to get them to go in the direction you want. For instance you should be able to put three things in front of them and have an almost certainty which they will choose. Motivation of the players is a huge key in running a game

None of these are actually connected thoughts, but i figured i would share them none the less. My mind has forgot where it began so it will wonder elsewhere

[Bigbeefie]

I have no problem with the story of Why Radiance was stolen, I do have a problem of her being a loot for defeating Hosilla, A fairly minor and not THEMATICALLY interesting villain. It feels just like another loot.
I Just read the second module, and we'll come with unlocking the sword's power when I come to it, but it's obvious that the campaign intended Radiance to be a BIG thing. If the paladin wishes to not use it, I won't mind. BUT if he DOES wishes to treat it as a legendary weapon (And I think it can be made legendary, away from books) then I want it to FEEL that way! It needs to be more memorable than "We killed some cultist on our way to the surface, and happened to find this sword, and what do you know? It happens to be a holy-avenger-in-the-making!"
It feels a bit cheap to me.

Wait till next book and the armor of Pious drops for beating a single Succubus and 2 mimics (not even at the same time.) Will feel even worst then a named cultist leader who is working for S. Vhayne dropping a +1 cold iron longsword.


but it's obvious that the campaign intended Radiance to be a BIG thing

They intended the trials to unlock it to be the BIG thing of this campaign pushing players to do things they normally would just leave behind like cleaning up desecrated alters and churches, or slaying evil that is living at a holy site. Those are suppose to be the big thing and the character shaping events.

Till that stuff happens its suppose to be a +1 cold Iron longsword that can serve as a torch in the hand of a able paladin. Not till the end of Book 1 does it even activate to do anything more the shed light.

I don't feel its out of place at all considering this campaign needed to get the sword to the Heroes and introduce Vhayne is up to something bigger stealing weapons of good. (Which if you replace this story point remember to leave the note at least connecting Vhayne to the cult underground following.)

The memory is the entire Journey and not the quick gratification. Having to justify every good loot drop will make your head spin this campaign as we are in book 3 and the loots only get stronger.


BUT if you really want to Change it you can:

have the players pass by the Museum where radiance was being kept and have them stop someone/something from breaking the magical barrier that protects it from being stolen by evil creatures. Then have the Note from Vhayne on them and change the cultist name to the robbers name. Then have radiance brighten up after the felling of the evil and the paladin can take it to protect it from further evil attempts to take it and corrupt it.

[(Un)Inspired]

Thanks for the quick replies! Here are some thoughts regarding them...

So both ideas are a sort of an Excalibur "right to claim" fiats to get the sword. While they do feel right in giving this an air of a special occurrence and such, where is the challenge? The PC needs to earn it. It needs to be the reward of an especially harrowing experience.
Thoughts?

Emphasis mine. Role play the kiss I suggested. DnD doesn't need to be all about combat.

[Coidzor]

Emphasis mine. Role play the kiss I suggested. DnD doesn't need to be all about combat.

What, have the player make out with the DM? :smallconfused: Seems a tad excessive.

[(Un)Inspired]

What, have the player make out with the DM? :smallconfused: Seems a tad excessive.

Eh. Just have the DM hold out his hand to RP the swords pomel and have the player lay some passion on it.

[danzibr]

Eh. Just have the DM hold out his hand to RP the swords pomel and have the player lay some passion on it.
Well, now I have some ideas for future campaigns.

[Coidzor]

Well, now I have some ideas for future campaigns.

I. Uh. Um. Err.

I'm scared now.

[Pickford]

Kol_Korran: How about the party arrives on the scene to see another Paladin using Radiance to fight a group of Demon's. You can throw in some exposition about is searing their hides, them dancing back from it's deadly kiss, etc... finally, the Paladin lodges Radiance in the chest of one Demon, but struggles to pull it free! The Paladin, is set upon by the remaining demons and slain, before the group can truly intervene.

The challenge, why they deserve it, is that they have to kill the remaining demons before claiming it. You could even spice it up by having the Paladin clinging to life and impart one last charge upon the party's paladin, entrusting him with Radiance.

[(Un)Inspired]

Kol_Korran: How about the party arrives on the scene to see another Paladin using Radiance to fight a group of Demon's. You can throw in some exposition about is searing their hides, them dancing back from it's deadly kiss, etc... finally, the Paladin lodges Radiance in the chest of one Demon, but struggles to pull it free! The Paladin, is set upon by the remaining demons and slain, before the group can truly intervene.

The challenge, why they deserve it, is that they have to kill the remaining demons before claiming it. You could even spice it up by having the Paladin clinging to life and impart one last charge upon the party's paladin, entrusting him with Radiance.

This is cool and would be great in a movie but what if the party has healing magic? I tried to run a scene a few years ago with an npc giving the players advice with his dying words and those clever buggers just cast cure spells and restoration all over him. He was just kind of awkwardly alive.

I was forced to give the party non cryptic advice and have the npc shuffle away.

What if the party manages to save or god for it raise dead this paladin? He'll probably want to hold into his sword.

[Neknoh]

Have it be a dream.
There are plenty of stories of valiant knights dreaming of an event past, present or future and it sending them on a quest. You could set this up with several dreams in advance, tell only the paladin.

First one sees the paladin walk along an endless shore with a voice not spoken singing on the ocean waves, a burning boat on the horizon.

Next one with the paladin at the bottom of the ocean, drowning in the darkness when he sees a light, as he swims toward it, the light grows stronger and eventually forms into a blade, in front of which kneels an astral/spectral knight who looks at him in suprise and disbelief. Our brave paladin is affixed by this specter and then he starts drowning.
He wakes up covered in sweat.

Third dream sees the paladin at the shore again, the sand spattered with black blood and demonic bodies, no song, no burning boat, just the aftermath of carnage underneath a reddening sky.

Fourth dream he walks along the shore, now the waves are blood as well, in the waves lie the paladin from the second dream, his body broken, his clothes soaked in blood and sea. His scabbard is empty and deep, wounded tracks lead from the beach, into the world of the waking. From somewhere beyond the border of the dreamlands, the playerdin can hear that wordless song.

The paladin can now hear the song grow stronger as the adventurer's travel through the town, hopefully he'll catch on and chase after it, otherwise, you'll just have to bring the song to them.

The sword will ultimately be found lodged in the shoulder of a formerly powerful demon, however, it has lost an arm, its wounds are open, seeping black corruption and his weapon is cracked (ready to be shattered epically by whomever goes in on melee and rolls a strong enough hit).

The sword is no longer gleaming, it is not radiant as a breaking dawn, but it sings to the paladin in a weakened state, and the demon is unable to remove it. If the party finds the demon (rather than the other way around, they can see a lesser demon burn his hands off trying to pull it out of the greater one).

TLDR: Dreams of sword and fallen paladin, wakes up one day, hears sword shouting "LOOT ME!" finds level-drained nasty demon, party kills demon, Paladin gets sword because of sword's choice.



By the by, Radiance is a beautiful name for a sword like this.
Another great example would be Morningstar (Or Lucifer) or Lightbringer, if only for the duality of having a holy demonslayer named after one of the most radiant angels.




Another way to introduce the sword is to have a child repeatedly visit the party/get saved by them/end up in the same place as them, eventually turning out that the child is the spirit of the sword testing them and rewarding them by revealing that the sword of an ancient statue in the town is, in fact, Radiance.

[Kol Korran]

I actually like the fog idea, since the sword can shed light. Make the sword be somewhere in the fog and glow brighter when the paladin moves towards it. Would give a nice feel of "finding the light in the dark" which seems like the overall feel of the campaign.

Thanks, However I do feel the scene and the need to use the sword is a bit too scripted, and I don't like to force my players take actions. Nudge them maybe, but not depend on "the one solution". I'll need to think about it soem more...


I would like to mention that just because something becomes or is legendary doesn't mean it has to start legendary, or have an big huge "here it is" moment.
True, finding the sowrd doesn't have to be a big moment, but having does feel more suitable, and is more memorable, no?


Also i would suggest that if you want to make the sword the main focus for the encounter, start with it as the main focus for the encounter. If you add zombies, blood mist, mouther, some friend/ally trapped, someone gets a bath etc. etc. etc. the sword as the prize may seem tagged on. If the journey is for the sword it becomes more important than the sword was found with the rest of the loot.
*Because of the comment about the fog: You don't have to have them going into the place looking specifically for the sword, but it should be the important thing This is a good point. I was thinking mostly on the challenge, and less on how to incorporate the sword into it. My general thought is that the party somehow hears that the something important was stolen by a good doer of some sort, and that the demons are hunting him/ her. They folow the trail, and find the place, where the good doer ran into, tricked and trapped to do so by the demons, knowing the horrible fate that will befall him. The party goes inside, looking for it, and face the horror.

Needs work. :smallannoyed:


As a dm, i would suggest you don't roll your dice in front of your players. There is no need for them to see the numbers, the numbers can give them a lot of information that they aren't suppose to know. It can be more interesting for the players not knowing

Though you may not be able to control the rolls of everyone you should be able to, unless you are new to being a dm, influence the players enough to get them to go in the direction you want. For instance you should be able to put three things in front of them and have an almost certainty which they will choose. Motivation of the players is a huge key in running a game

This is an entirely different matter, which I won't get into now. Suffice to say we have been doing this for years now, and it has changed our game OH SO MUCH for the better! Can't recommend it enough. But it's a matter for another thread...


Wait till next book and the armor of Pious drops for beating a single Succubus and 2 mimics (not even at the same time.) Will feel even worst then a named cultist leader who is working for S. Vhayne dropping a +1 cold iron longsword.
I've just started getting to that. I think that may change as well, and the armor would be made to suit some other class more. The paladin got enough. Maybe the cleric or someone else.


They intended the trials to unlock it to be the BIG thing of this campaign pushing players to do things they normally would just leave behind like cleaning up desecrated alters and churches, or slaying evil that is living at a holy site. Those are suppose to be the big thing and the character shaping events. Hmmm... This is true. I've read the trial in the second module. I'd liek the finding event to be memorable, but not to overly shadow the other "power unlocking events". I may need to tone down my ideas a bit, thanks!


The memory is the entire Journey and not the quick gratification. Having to justify every good loot drop will make your head spin this campaign as we are in book 3 and the loots only get stronger. I don't intend to justify every loot drop, but the major ones I do. Radiance is a VERY big deal I think.


BUT if you really want to Change it you can:


have the players pass by the Museum where radiance was being kept and have them stop someone/something from breaking the magical barrier that protects it from being stolen by evil creatures. Then have the Note from Vhayne on them and change the cultist name to the robbers name. Then have radiance brighten up after the felling of the evil and the paladin can take it to protect it from further evil attempts to take it and corrupt it. The "museum" is the Gray Garison, where the yreach at the end of the module. They find the missing place of the sword there. But I understand some of the idea, perhaps it can be converted- Evil creatures can't take it, so the demons force some good creature to do so, perhaps binding it to them, perhaps it is being possessed? And the party might face the person, needing to decide how to subdue them without killing them, if at all possible.

Hmmm... might have some potential, I need to think about it. Thanks!


Emphasis mine. Role play the kiss I suggested. DnD doesn't need to be all about combat.
Indeed. And it is a good point. But I'd like there to be a challenge. I'd love some genuine roleplay in it as well. That's the reason I thought of the tormented ghosts in the horror bath house in the idea above. I want the paladin to feel some weight of responsibility or such, thoughts the spirits/ ghosts can convey this well.

I will integrate roleplay somehow, but I want it mixed with a challenge, a triumph of some sort. A moment of elation?


Kol_Korran: How about the party arrives on the scene to see another Paladin using Radiance to fight a group of Demon's. You can throw in some exposition about is searing their hides, them dancing back from it's deadly kiss, etc... finally, the Paladin lodges Radiance in the chest of one Demon, but struggles to pull it free! The Paladin, is set upon by the remaining demons and slain, before the group can truly intervene.

The challenge, why they deserve it, is that they have to kill the remaining demons before claiming it. You could even spice it up by having the Paladin clinging to life and impart one last charge upon the party's paladin, entrusting him with Radiance.

As (Un)Inspired said, this scene has some problem, and is a bit scripted, which can cause all kind of problems. However, the idea of the sword being stuck in some opponent gives an interesting twist to "the sword in stone" concept. wrenching the sword from a living demon might be very fitting indeed. Intriguing... :smallamused:
----------------------------------------------
Thanks for all the advice! Some ideas are forming better, some points well taken. So thanks a bunch! If you have other ideas, please tell...

[Nettlekid]

Hey, sorry to ask a partially unrelated question, but what level is it best/appropriate to start giving PCs not like Artifact-level things, but just specially customized items designed for the PCs (like what you're describing this sword would be with its minor powers.) The kind of thing that they'd keep on them for many levels because other level-appropriate equipment is just a bit worse on most or all fronts, and possibly later due to sentiment. When does that give a PC an edge and a slight boost without being overpowered?

[(Un)Inspired]

Hey, sorry to ask a partially unrelated question, but what level is it best/appropriate to start giving PCs not like Artifact-level things, but just specially customized items designed for the PCs (like what you're describing this sword would be with its minor powers.) The kind of thing that they'd keep on them for many levels because other level-appropriate equipment is just a bit worse on most or all fronts, and possibly later due to sentiment. When does that give a PC an edge and a slight boost without being overpowered?

In a pathfinder campaign I'm running right now the party used a scroll of flesh to stone on a wall an adamantine gate was stuck in and had it melted down into an adamantine greatsword for the ranger. That was level 4. They're level 7 now and he's put the hunting enchantment on it.

I don't know if that's the level of not-quite-artifact power you were thinking of but it's way more valuable then anyone else in the parties weapon and it hasn't been a problem.

[danzibr]

I. Uh. Um. Err.

I'm scared now.
I did start a campaign with just my wife once. She was a Pallyesque Cleric. Bout time to pick it back up.

[(Un)Inspired]

Just remember if you guys have too much fun she loses all her paladin powers.

[Nettlekid]

In a pathfinder campaign I'm running right now the party used a scroll of flesh to stone on a wall an adamantine gate was stuck in and had it melted down into an adamantine greatsword for the ranger. That was level 4. They're level 7 now and he's put the hunting enchantment on it.

I don't know if that's the level of not-quite-artifact power you were thinking of but it's way more valuable then anyone else in the parties weapon and it hasn't been a problem.

Okay, so pretty low level is okay. I was thinking like a +1 (+2 Equivalent Bonus) Weapon for the melee dude at level 4, or a +3 (+4 total Equivalent Bonus) Weapon at level 10, things of that level. Things that would be outside WBL but not gamebreaking because, well, you know what gamebreaking is and that's not it. Glad to hear that even at pretty low levels it's exciting but doesn't unbalance.

[Craft (Cheese)]

There is an antipaladin coming up in the next adventure, and the legendary paladin is long dead. But I get the idea of an "opposite evil" kind of foe. I'l think about it, maybe dos something on thosel ines, though not exactly the same.

Yaniel's still alive, though being held captive on the brink of death by the Enemy, and the PCs will have the opportunity to save her in Chapter 4 when they face Minagho. It's easy to screw this up though since the PCs need to do everything in exactly the right order for her to make it out alive. Thankfully, saving her is optional and screwing it up won't break the plot, albeit it's worth a crapload of bonus story XP, and it upgrades Radiance to its final form: A full-fledged Mythic Holy Avenger. Strangely, she's statted up as a 12th-level Paladin with no mythic ranks, in spite of her bond to an artifact weapon: This is probably because the adventure seems to expect a PC to want to take her on as a cohort. Ultimately, Yaniel's not nearly so badass and important as her backstory given in The Worldwound Incursion makes her sound: OOC I'd attribute this to just bad writing (Midnight Isles is filled with it) and a lack of communication between different writers, but in-character I'd just amount it to her legend being more than considerably embellished.

[Kol Korran]

Have it be a dream.
There are plenty of stories of valiant knights dreaming of an event past, present or future and it sending them on a quest. You could set this up with several dreams in advance, tell only the paladin.

<dreams description>

TLDR: Dreams of sword and fallen paladin, wakes up one day, hears sword shouting "LOOT ME!" finds level-drained nasty demon, party kills demon, Paladin gets sword because of sword's choice.
Sorry I didn't respond in my previous post, I just saw yours, must have come up while I was responding to the others...

The dream Idea is very fitting, and quite cool. I think It might be soem sort of emanatiosn fro mthe sword, seeking a receptive soul. The paladin may not have much time till he encoutners the sword (possibly less than a day, and possibly with no sleep at all till then), so the dreams might need to be adjusted to visions or the like. But I liek the idea, it gives a better sense of connection. The very mystical, and personal touch I sought for. So thanks!


By the by, Radiance is a beautiful name for a sword like this.
Another great example would be Morningstar (Or Lucifer) or Lightbringer, if only for the duality of having a holy demonslayer named after one of the most radiant angels.

This world has different angels, so the name would be a bit lost on the character (and possibly on the player as well, we're not christian. I know these names, I'm not sure the players will) I still like the idea of telling the paladin the name the sword had before, but enable him to rename it again.


Another way to introduce the sword is to have a child repeatedly visit the party/get saved by them/end up in the same place as them, eventually turning out that the child is the spirit of the sword testing them and rewarding them by revealing that the sword of an ancient statue in the town is, in fact, Radiance. Again, I don't think we'll have that much time, but the idea of the sword contactign the paladin through vissions before finiding it adds the personal touch I've mentioned, plus quite a nice build up. I like it!


Hey, sorry to ask a partially unrelated question, but what level is it best/appropriate to start giving PCs not like Artifact-level things, but just specially customized items designed for the PCs (like what you're describing this sword would be with its minor powers.) The kind of thing that they'd keep on them for many levels because other level-appropriate equipment is just a bit worse on most or all fronts, and possibly later due to sentiment. When does that give a PC an edge and a slight boost without being overpowered?

No problems Nettlekid, the threads are meant for discussion. I have at times put more "personal" items fro mquite early on. A few importent things:
- Don't go overboard makingthese too powerful. This creates enough balance problem. The idea here is "Intriguing", "fun" and "unique". Usually this amount to 2-3 cool nice abilities the item has, or some sort of an implication on roleplay.
- Also- shoot to appeal to the PLAYERS' interest, and only then to the CHARACTERS. the players need to be hooked.
- To keep the items appealing through the power gain, I suggest to start them with low power, and increase it somehow (Similar to Radiance in the WoTR story) through the levels, keeping it just enough powerful, and enough interesting so as to keep it.
3.5 book "weapons of legacy" is supposed to have a system where items gain power and abilities through deeds the heroes perform. I haven't read it, but the book might be worth checking.


Yaniel's still alive, though being held captive on the brink of death by the Enemy, and the PCs will have the opportunity to save her in Chapter 4 when they face Minagho. It's easy to screw this up though since the PCs need to do everything in exactly the right order for her to make it out alive. Thankfully, saving her is optional and screwing it up won't break the plot, albeit it's worth a crapload of bonus story XP, and it upgrades Radiance to its final form: A full-fledged Mythic Holy Avenger. Strangely, she's statted up as a 12th-level Paladin with no mythic ranks, in spite of her bond to an artifact weapon: This is probably because the adventure seems to expect a PC to want to take her on as a cohort. Ultimately, Yaniel's not nearly so badass and important as her backstory given in The Worldwound Incursion makes her sound: OOC I'd attribute this to just bad writing (Midnight Isles is filled with it) and a lack of communication between different writers, but in-character I'd just amount it to her legend being more than considerably embellished.

Now that IS interesting! I hope the twist is well written (though by your words it's probably not) It's nice to know, I'm currently in my second module.
By the way Craft, I started a DM's campaign log for this, including my changes to the module (Which is the purpose of this thread). Some of those come due to the things we have discussed. If you're interested it could be found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321974) Only done the second meeting so far though, and updates are far in between (Due to my groups' schedule), but I think it's decent (If long :smallamused:)

[Red Fel]

I would recommend paying a visit to Weapons of Legacy and taking a tip or two from there.

Yes, WoL is a bad book - it took a great idea and made it mechanically unappealing - but there are fixes for it. A lot of them. (Google is your friend.)

You could even refluff one of the existing ones. Exordius comes to mind - a weapon of darkness, redeemed. Alternatively, go with Merikel, and let the player's actions determine the weapon's progress. Or make the weapon its own weapon, using others as sort of a template.

I think a (fixed) WoL is a great choice, if the player (and the party) is willing to invest the time and energy into it. The thing to remember is that a WoL can be a bit of a scene-stealer. It takes time, research, and rituals to make it worthwhile, and if you put it into a player's hands, you're essentially saying "this will make you special," and you'd better be able to say something similar to your other players.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Now that IS interesting! I hope the twist is well written (though by your words it's probably not) It's nice to know, I'm currently in my second module.

Well, the players find her shriveled up, naked body almost literally stuffed into a fridge, at negative hit points but magically kept alive by Minagho. And if the lack of dignity isn't bad enough, she doesn't have anything to do or say if the players manage to save her: She just heads back to Nerosyan to retire from adventuring, unless a PC wants to take her as a cohort. What should be this big epic moment "Wow, we're finally meeting this super awesome epic hero of the crusades we've heard so much about!" is actually sort of one-note and uncomfortable for everyone involved. At the very least, I'd put some clothes on her, yeesh!

[Lord Vukodlak]

Have there be a series of spiritual trials designed to see if he is worthy. This should include one or more secret tests of character (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SecretTestOfCharacter).

Now the player will likely going know whats happening as I assume he'd already be familiar with this trope. But from an in-game perspective it makes the scene worthy.

Example:
The player has to run a gauntlet alone at sunset they must reach the end before the last rays of the sun disappear outside.(double points if it has to be on the solstice). If he fails to reach the end in time the portal seals.
*It has to be a portal or the PC's will just figure they can break down the door*.

Along the way he finds an injured man someone who took shelter in the cavern during a storm and got lost. His leg is infected with some flesh eating mold. Natural sunlight will destroy the mold and save his life however of the player stops to carry him out of the cavern he'll fail to reach the portal before it closes for another year. If he proceeds onward the man will die before sunrise and he fails the test.

NOW to really pull a fast one on the player you could have him apparently fail the test by saving the injured man but some adventure later the sword will appear to him when he needs it. Say there fighting a creature whose regeneration/DR the sword would overcome.

[Bigbeefie]

The loot this campaign is insane. End of book 2 our group ended up well geared. Pious armor for our paladin, +3 spiked full plate for the fighter, blessed book for the wizard, a lot of stuff to fill out defenses. We also ended up with 91k to split up. The campaign uses downtime mechanic. Rebuilding the town becomes a responsibility so if the players invest in the town then it seems less like over abundance of loot. If you having read down time you should its in depth. But once u see typically he scheme that the players give up some upfront loot. It surprised us completely cause we thought we where going to keep the fat loot.

[Grek]

Radiance is enchanted such that it may only be drawn by a worthy paladin and, in the right hands, is anathema to demonkind. Why is the sword in a demon's possession, then? It was put there by the paladin, of course.

Long, long ago, the original owner of Radiance fought against the Demon Lord and was struck down. With his last breath, he sheathed the sword in the chest of the Demon Lord, dealing a debilitating, but non-fatal wound. No demon or other evil soul could draw the blade from its resting place in the Demon Lord's heart, leaving the foul beast with an unhealing wound and an eternal reminder of his inevitable downfall. When the party fights the demon, the paladin can draw the sword out, having been deemed worthy as a result of fighting to avenge Radiance's former owner.

[Pickford]

This is cool and would be great in a movie but what if the party has healing magic? I tried to run a scene a few years ago with an npc giving the players advice with his dying words and those clever buggers just cast cure spells and restoration all over him. He was just kind of awkwardly alive.

I was forced to give the party non cryptic advice and have the npc shuffle away.

What if the party manages to save or god for it raise dead this paladin? He'll probably want to hold into his sword.

You have him die before they can cast anything, or claim his damage can not be healed by magic (vile damage works that way, iirc as few people have hallow/consecrate running all the time).

Example:

Player with healing power 1: I go to heal him.
DM: As you reach out to touch him, the Paladin grabs you by the collar, pulling you in close. As you struggle to maintain your concentration he gasps into your ear: "Take my sword Radiance....find the others....save....them......" and speaks no more. As you gaze into his eyes, you realize the icy grasp of death has taken hold and no healing can save him from death now.

Essentially, no matter what the players say or do, the DM is capable of subverting their intentions to follow the plot.

[danzibr]

Just remember if you guys have too much fun she loses all her paladin powers.
She's a Cleric with some Paladin flavor. I think we're safe.

[(Un)Inspired]

She's a Cleric with some Paladin flavor. I think we're safe.

Giddy-up then I suppose

[Sam K]

Based on what was mentioned about the future trials to unlock the swords power, I think it would be a cool idea if the aquisition wasn't the usual "Find enemy, murderhobo, profit" scheme. How about this:

The sword is currently owned by some powerful demons minion (I take it there's some demon boss in the city?): a tiefling with some class levels. This tiefling is working as a sort of military police, maintaining order among the demons other minions (demons being an unruly sort), which explains why it has a weapon capable of overcoming their DR.

The tiefling isn't serving the demon by choice, though. It's charmed, compelled, geased or blackmailed (pick whatever seems most appropriate). It not even evil, it's chaotic neutral. The PC encounters this person while it's on the job, hunting down some minor demons and killing them. The combination of slaying demons and not radiating evil (if the paladin is the kind who spams this ability) should give the party a reason to talk to the tiefling rather than attack it outright, and assuming they can make some sort of deal where they help the tiefling escape it's forced service it will give them the sword (and possibly some useful advice) in exchange. Also, the paladin should be happy to have set someone on the first step towards redemption, and it sets the mood for the future challenges (building on something good, not fighting evil).

Ofcourse, if they DO outright attack anyway (we all know the types), the sword will atleast have been won in combat against a demonic minion, and the use it was being put to should foreshadow it's eventual powers.

[Kol Korran]

<Weapons of Legacy suggestion>
This is intriguing, I have heard about the book and it does seem to fit. I think the adventure tries to do something of that sort, as the sword's power unlocks by performing special deeds.

I don't have the book, but one of my players might, I will try to obtain it. As to the "making them special" problem, well... the campaign said it from the outset, and they all know it. The players has been dying to play a paladin for ages, and the party is cool with him being somewhat in the spotlight. I intend to make the others special in their won right though.


<suggestion about secret moral character trials> I Like this idea... I like it A LOT! I just don't want the player to fail... He usually plays very paladin-ish, but he has his moments... But this is indeed a cool concept. However, there is no one to actually perform the test. The old paladin is gone, the religious factions are either scattered or busy fighting for their lives. However...

There is the paladin's goddess, and it might fit her very much. Combined with the dreams suggestions above, one can say she is seeking for a wielder of the sword, for some new champion for her cause, but it must be a TRUE champion (of a sort)... hmmm... :smallamused:

I'm just worried the Paladin doesn't succeed here, and then it would REALLY suck, and be a major bummer. But... There must be a chance of failure, if there is to be the thrill of success, no? :smallwink:


<about loot in the campaign and the downtime Thanks for the warning about Downtime, I will need to read about it. Resource management is mentioned here and there in the second module, but I haven't got to the third module yet. (Sigh) :smallsigh: I will need to check how it goes.


<Radiance stuck in the demon lord> It's a cool concept, and I like the imagery of it, especially of the paladin Wretching the sword of the demon. However, They will only be level 3... So no demon lord, or even strong demons. This may need to e more subtle.



Example:

Player with healing power 1: I go to heal him.
DM: As you reach out to touch him, the Paladin grabs you by the collar, pulling you in close. As you struggle to maintain your concentration he gasps into your ear: "Take my sword Radiance....find the others....save....them......" and speaks no more. As you gaze into his eyes, you realize the icy grasp of death has taken hold and no healing can save him from death now.

Essentially, no matter what the players say or do, the DM is capable of subverting their intentions to follow the plot.
DM: The NPCs begins to..
Cleric: I use my channel energy on him.
DM: Before you do that...
Cleric: "what do you mean before? It's the first thing I do! It works from a distance too!"

I understand your sentiment, but I dislike scripted actions and scenes. I allow the player to change nearly everything (It ain't always easy, but it's possible), and they have often found ways to surprise me and circumvent "precautions". I don't like to negate their clever thinking when they do so.


The tiefling "demon police" Idea. This is an interesting idea, I need to think about it. It gives the possibility of a future recurring NPC, and also A potential for Redemption. I'm just worried that the test isn't too straightforward. I think it might be joined with the "Secret tests" above (Though I'll need to make it less obvious), and maybe the dreams/ portents
---------------------------------------
Thanks all for the ideas, some good stuff in here! My head is swimming with ideas! :smalltongue:

[Lord Vukodlak]

I Like this idea... I like it A LOT! I just don't want the player to fail... He usually plays very paladin-ish, but he has his moments... But this is indeed a cool concept. However, there is no one to actually perform the test. The old paladin is gone, the religious factions are either scattered or busy fighting for their lives. However...

There is the paladin's goddess, and it might fit her very much. Combined with the dreams suggestions above, one can say she is seeking for a wielder of the sword, for some new champion for her cause, but it must be a TRUE champion (of a sort)... hmmm...

I'm just worried the Paladin doesn't succeed here, and then it would REALLY suck, and be a major bummer. But... There must be a chance of failure, if there is to be the thrill of success, no?
Glad you like it, In my own campaign I put the paladin through a secret test of character though its purpose was to divine if he was still worthy of being a paladin at all. He failed became a blackguard and received a special template I designed called the Fallen of Blackhand which among its abilities were projecting a false alignment aura and the delusion of righteousness which let him wield holy weapons without penalty. You could say he failed the test but as it was given by the God of Tyranny to see if he was worthy to be one of his champions he actually passed.



DM: The NPCs begins to..
Cleric: I use my channel energy on him.
DM: Before you do that...
Cleric: "what do you mean before? It's the first thing I do! It works from a distance too!"

I understand your sentiment, but I dislike scripted actions and scenes. I allow the player to change nearly everything (It ain't always easy, but it's possible), and they have often found ways to surprise me and circumvent "precautions". I don't like to negate their clever thinking when they do so.
There's a simple solution for this, a very nice houserule. When someone reaches negative ten or their con as it appears your using pathfinder they aren't instantly dead simply beyond help. This allows dying character to impart a few words before passing on without removing the whole dying part.

In this case you've changed the rules for dying so there is a window between dying and dead where the target is beyond help. Or you can just have him actually be dead and it was his ghost animating the body before departing.