Gamera to save the day?

[INoKnowNames]

Title says it all: for a very specific character concept, I'm trying to figure out how to get non-item, non-dispelable flight onto a turtle (or other teresterial land reptilian).

Alternatively, how soon could one get a medium sized Dragon as some type of cohort or companion (no vanilla Leadership)?

Essentially, I'm looking to be able to have miniature Gamera as a personal ally for a PC as soon as possible. Though honestly, I can't even find the stats for a basic turtle... you guys gotta be able to do this!

[MonochromeTiger]

Title says it all: for a very specific character concept, I'm trying to figure out how to get non-item, non-dispelable flight onto a turtle (or other teresterial land reptilian).

Alternatively, how soon could one get a medium sized Dragon as some type of cohort or companion (no vanilla Leadership)?

Essentially, I'm looking to be able to have miniature Gamera as a personal ally for a PC as soon as possible. Though honestly, I can't even find the stats for a basic turtle... you guys gotta be able to do this!

well once you find a basic turtle it seems that the most viable method is to have young children sing songs in a show of unconditional love for said turtle and then to have the MST3k cast turn that song into what is possibly the best bit of film related music ever. alternatively find a way to make the turtle gain fire elemental traits and ask the DM to fiat in spinning-fire-flight.

[(Un)Inspired]

well once you find a basic turtle it seems that the most viable method is to have young children sing songs in a show of unconditional love for said turtle and then to have the MST3k cast turn that song into what is possibly the best bit of film related music ever. alternatively find a way to make the turtle gain fire elemental traits and ask the DM to fiat in spinning-fire-flight.

+1 to all this business

Try a Tortle half-celestial for your gamera and use the dragon cohort feat on a red dragon to get your Godzilla companion.

[Red Fel]

One of the easiest ones is simply to take a mundane turtle (which is not, to my knowledge, statted in 3.5) and add the Winged template for +2 LA. Admittedly, that's an awful lot just to add (Ex) wings, and you'll probably want to refluff it into some form of propulsion system. But the plus side is that (Ex) wings are non-dispellable.

The problem: Aside from having actual wings, which Gamera lacks, most forms of flight are somewhat supernatural in nature. Even Gamera's own flight almost defies physics.

Another option is to take a mundane turtle, Awaken it (giving it Int of at least 3), and then apply the Dragonborn template (which can be applied to anyone non-evil with at least 3 Int). Whether you choose Wings or Heart aspect, you can still take Dragonblood feats for the other abilities, and you will have a dragonblooded, fire-breathing, flying turtle.

The problem: Again, this entails actual wings instead of merely flight.

Yet another option is to give the turtle a pet-item equivalent of the Ring of Solar Wings from BoED. All day flight, 150' speed, good maneuverability.

The problems: First, it's a magic item, which can be suppressed or stolen. Second, it's outrageously expensive (118,000 gp if I recall).

You could try an Air Element Creature template, but that's already a +4 LA, and really doesn't give you much other than the flight and some immunities.

I think that a perpetual source of (Su) flight would probably be a better option, and make more sense for Gamera. (Seriously. How does he do it? Rockets?)

All that said, you could consider homebrewing. For example, look at the Dragon Turtle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTurtle.htm). This, friend, is your precedent: a huge aquatic dragon. In other words, the world of D&D is not averse to freakish kaiju turtles. So here's what you do. First, take a mundane turtle. Next, give it flight, good maneuverability, probably twice its land speed just to be safe. Make it medium, because this sucker is big. Give it the dragonblood subtype and a fire breath weapon (usable every 1d4 rounds), but no Frightful Presence. Heck, use the True Dragon advancement-by-age to measure the growth of its breath weapon, and maybe let the Frightful Presence come later.

[INoKnowNames]

well once you find a basic turtle it seems that the most viable method is to have young children sing songs in a show of unconditional love for said turtle and then to have the MST3k cast turn that song into what is possibly the best bit of film related music ever. alternatively find a way to make the turtle gain fire elemental traits and ask the DM to fiat in spinning-fire-flight.


+1 to all this business

While I appreciate the nostalgia, I fail to see an answer provided here, only more questions.


Try a Tortle half-celestial for your gamera and use the dragon cohort feat on a red dragon to get your Godzilla companion.

I thought it was spelled Turtle... how does one access a Tortle?

I wasn't trying to get a Godzilla companion. I wanted a Gamera / Flying Spinning Turtle companion. And yes, I know that is -INCREDIBLY- specific.


One of the easiest ones is simply to take a mundane turtle (which is not, to my knowledge, statted in 3.5) and add the Winged template for +2 LA. Admittedly, that's an awful lot just to add (Ex) wings, and you'll probably want to refluff it into some form of propulsion system. But the plus side is that (Ex) wings are non-dispellable.

The problem: Aside from having actual wings, which Gamera lacks, most forms of flight are somewhat supernatural in nature. Even Gamera's own flight almost defies physics.

Another option is to take a mundane turtle, Awaken it (giving it Int of at least 3), and then apply the Dragonborn template (which can be applied to anyone non-evil with at least 3 Int). Whether you choose Wings or Heart aspect, you can still take Dragonblood feats for the other abilities, and you will have a dragonblooded, fire-breathing, flying turtle.

The problem: Again, this entails actual wings instead of merely flight.

Yet another option is to give the turtle a pet-item equivalent of the Ring of Solar Wings from BoED. All day flight, 150' speed, good maneuverability.

The problems: First, it's a magic item, which can be suppressed or stolen. Second, it's outrageously expensive (118,000 gp if I recall).

You could try an Air Element Creature template, but that's already a +4 LA, and really doesn't give you much other than the flight and some immunities.

I think that a perpetual source of (Su) flight would probably be a better option, and make more sense for Gamera. (Seriously. How does he do it? Rockets?)

All that said, you could consider homebrewing. For example, look at the Dragon Turtle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTurtle.htm). This, friend, is your precedent: a huge aquatic dragon. In other words, the world of D&D is not averse to freakish kaiju turtles. So here's what you do. First, take a mundane turtle. Next, give it flight, good maneuverability, probably twice its land speed just to be safe. Make it medium, because this sucker is big. Give it the dragonblood subtype and a fire breath weapon (usable every 1d4 rounds), but no Frightful Presence. Heck, use the True Dragon advancement-by-age to measure the growth of its breath weapon, and maybe let the Frightful Presence come later.

I really am surprised that the Turtle isn't a choice for a familiar, at the very least. You'd think Water based Wizards or Druids might find the turtle hype enough to keep... Is there presidence for being able to add a template to a companion and be allowed to keep it, though? Druids can't keep anything beyond animals, for example, and I don't think Paladins have much wiggle room in their mounts, either.

On the subject of the Dragonborn Template, how does that interact with the Celestial Companion Feat to make it a Celestial Animal? Would that be eaiser than trying to awaken it (and thus losing it as a companion? Druid companion seems like the easiest way to recruit someone)? And what feats would enable it to gain Flight if I went with the Heart aspect?

Ring of Solar Wings is a no go (too expensive to afford before later levels, and that's a lot of cash to put on a companion or mount, not to mention I'm looking for itemless ways of doing this).

No idea where the Air Element Creature Template is from, but the first one I looked up (on Realms Help, if I remember right from 2 seconds ago) doesn't have a listed LA, and the style of persistent high speed flight by a creature giving the laws of physics the bird through no resources beyond existing, in a completely rules legal format that requires no help from the Dm beyond allowing it to be able to exist in the first place, is all I want.

What type of supernatural flight might you have in mind that wouldn't already be a solution?

As for how Gamera flies, he's practically part elemental: he can absorb and manipulate fire, and he shoots fire out of the parts of the shell his limbs go back into in order to fly. Maybe I should just try to be recruiting a Dragon of some kind, then, since that's -really- what he is, and this system, for some reason, never stated up a basic turtle...

I prefer homebrew last, if I can. If I can actually do it in the system, I'd prefer to.

[(Un)Inspired]

I thought it was spelled Turtle... how does one access a Tortle?

I wasn't trying to get a Godzilla companion. I wanted a Gamera / Flying Spinning Turtle companion. And yes, I know that is -INCREDIBLY- specific.

Hahaha no no tortle is a playable turtle race from dragon #315.

I thought that your quest for a medium sized dragon cohort was do you could have a Godzilla to go with your gamera. Anyways Dragon cohort will give you a medium dragon companion at 7th level I believe.

[Darrin]

Essentially, I'm looking to be able to have miniature Gamera as a personal ally for a PC as soon as possible. Though honestly, I can't even find the stats for a basic turtle... you guys gotta be able to do this!

There's a Snapping Turtle in Stormwrack p. 168. 2 HD, small size, 5' land speed, 20' swim speed, Improved Grab and Improved Natural Armor. If you add the Winged template (Savage Species), it gets a 25' fly speed (poor). Ideally, you want to add the half-dragon template, as this gives him a breath weapon, but it doesn't give flight unless the base creature is large-sized or larger. Dragonborn of Bahumat might work better... give it the Heart aspect for a breath weapon, and swap Weapon Finesse for Dragon Wings. When it gets 6 HD, take Improved Dragon Wings for full flight. However, it would lose Improved Natural Armor (racial bonus feat).

There's a Dire Tortoise in Sandstorm that's huge, so adding half-dragon to that would be very close to Gamera... but it has 14HD, which would probably outshine anything except a high-level PC. Might as well just use a Dragon Turtle with Dragon Wings/Improved Dragon Wings.

As far as taking it as a cohort, Dragon Cohort requires 9th level. Leadership can be taken at 6th, but highest ECL you can have for a cohort would be at best two levels below the PC.

Hmm. How about this: take a Drakkensteed (Dragon Magic), throw on the Amphibious template (Stormwrack), and then just say it "looks like a flying turtle". If you want it to breath fire, throw half-dragon on there.

[INoKnowNames]

Hahaha no no tortle is a playable turtle race from dragon #315.

That makes a bit more sense. And while that does give me something else that I've had in the back of my head, I don't think I could use a tortle for such a role any more than I could use a dwarf without leadership.


I thought that your quest for a medium sized dragon cohort was do you could have a Godzilla to go with your gamera. Anyways Dragon cohort will give you a medium dragon companion at 7th level I believe.

Maybe some obscure Dragon might be exactly what I need... the hard part is finding a Dragon that isn't greedy or smart, and manages to be both aquatic and airborn in addition to earthborn.


There's a Snapping Turtle in Stormwrack p. 168. 2 HD, small size, 5' land speed, 20' swim speed, Improved Grab and Improved Natural Armor.

Freaking makes Toad an option before Snapping Turtle? So not cool. On the other hand, d'aww, Snapping Turtles...


If you add the Winged template (Savage Species), it gets a 25' fly speed (poor). Ideally, you want to add the half-dragon template, as this gives him a breath weapon, but it doesn't give flight unless the base creature is large-sized or larger. Dragonborn of Bahumat might work better... give it the Heart aspect for a breath weapon, and swap Weapon Finesse for Dragon Wings. When it gets 6 HD, take Improved Dragon Wings for full flight. However, it would lose Improved Natural Armor (racial bonus feat).

Is Dragonborn of Bahumat rules legal on an animal companion, though? Pretty sure Winged Template isn't, since the animal would become a Magical Beast...


There's a Dire Tortoise in Sandstorm that's huge, so adding half-dragon to that would be very close to Gamera... but it has 14HD, which would probably outshine anything except a high-level PC. Might as well just use a Dragon Turtle with Dragon Wings/Improved Dragon Wings.

Modifying a Dire Tortoise and finding a way to make it stay rules legal is actually an option I like the sound of, since a Dire Tortoise could be taken as an Animal Companion at 10th level, and Natural Bond could offset that by 3 levels.

Concerning said modifications, however, my previous question remains persistent...


As far as taking it as a cohort, Dragon Cohort requires 9th level. Leadership can be taken at 6th, but highest ECL you can have for a cohort would be at best two levels below the PC.

...unless Dragon Cohort is capable of sidesteping all of this. That sounds cool... though I don't think I Can do Leadership.


Hmm. How about this: take a Drakkensteed (Dragon Magic), throw on the Amphibious template (Stormwrack), and then just say it "looks like a flying turtle". If you want it to breath fire, throw half-dragon on there.

Unfortunately, Amphibious is illegal for a non-humanoid (for some stupid reason).

For the record, I don't mind this turtle being Winged. I just request it's ability to fly to be independent of anything else but it's own abilities. No outside spells to cast on it, or any items to make it go.

[Red Fel]

If you just want a turtle with wings, again, the easiest solution is the Winged template from Savage Species. +2 LA, and you're done. Note that this will turn the turtle into a Magical Beast, as opposed to an Animal.

Dragonborn cannot be placed on an Animal, but it can be placed on anything with 3 or more Int that is non-evil. If you Awaken an Animal, it fits the requirements. However, an Awakened Animal cannot be a familiar, animal companion or special mount. (It can be a cohort.) The plus side is that Dragonborn does not add a level adjustment. The minus side is that, basically, the only way to keep an Awakened Dragonborn turtle attached to your character is as a cohort.

Leadership is a broken feat, but it's basically the easiest way to get almost anything you want as a sidekick, including a magical flying turtle. In the alternative, one level of Thrallherd also gets you a cohort, although you get one closer to your level and no negative side effects for getting him killed off. Of course, Thrallherd also requires several levels of psionics, so it's not viable if it wasn't part of your build to begin with.

Either way, Leadership/Thrallherd would be a very effective way to get what you want, and as a bonus, you could see if you could roll any additional followers (beyond the cohort) into being a litter of Gamera's future kaiju babies.

As a final aside, Darrin mentioned Dragon Cohort. The great thing about that feat is that it does not require Leadership - you gain a Dragon cohort, no followers, just for having achieved level 9 and investing skill points in Language (Draconic). If you can refluff this dragon to be more Gamera-like (maybe a Lung dragon?) you're set.

[INoKnowNames]

Dragonborn cannot be placed on an Animal, but it can be placed on anything with 3 or more Int that is non-evil. If you Awaken an Animal, it fits the requirements. However, an Awakened Animal cannot be a familiar, animal companion or special mount. (It can be a cohort.) The plus side is that Dragonborn does not add a level adjustment. The minus side is that, basically, the only way to keep an Awakened Dragonborn turtle attached to your character is as a cohort.

If the -only- requirements to become a Dragonborn is that it be a thing with 3+ Int that isn't evil, I'm pretty sure I've got an entirely legitimate way around that: Exalted Companion (http://dndtools.eu/feats/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/exalted-companion--968/) lets me apply the Celestial Template to an otherwise legal companion. The Celestial Template bumps up Intelligence to a base 3, and locks the creature into Good. After attracting an animal of the proper kind, it could then be given the Dragonborn Ritual (or whatever it is; can't say I remember off of the top of my head) to get a Breath Weapon, and trade out some of it's feats to get the Flying.

At least I think this all works; does this work? Because I like the idea of a Celestial Dragonborn Dire Turtle. Obtainable just at about mid level, and it looks like everything actually fits.


As a final aside, Darrin mentioned Dragon Cohort. The great thing about that feat is that it does not require Leadership - you gain a Dragon cohort, no followers, just for having achieved level 9 and investing skill points in Language (Draconic). If you can refluff this dragon to be more Gamera-like (maybe a Lung dragon?) you're set.

If the one before doesn't work, then this does, assuming I can find a dragon large enough to be my Gamera and not greedy enough to adventure with me.


Leadership is a broken feat, but it's basically the easiest way to get almost anything you want as a sidekick, including a magical flying turtle. In the alternative, one level of Thrallherd also gets you a cohort, although you get one closer to your level and no negative side effects for getting him killed off. Of course, Thrallherd also requires several levels of psionics, so it's not viable if it wasn't part of your build to begin with.

Either way, Leadership/Thrallherd would be a very effective way to get what you want, and as a bonus, you could see if you could roll any additional followers (beyond the cohort) into being a litter of Gamera's future kaiju babies.

That would be a fun idea for an encounter, honestly. An army of flying, spinning, firebreathing turtles...

[Darrin]

As a final aside, Darrin mentioned Dragon Cohort. The great thing about that feat is that it does not require Leadership - you gain a Dragon cohort, no followers, just for having achieved level 9 and investing skill points in Language (Draconic). If you can refluff this dragon to be more Gamera-like (maybe a Lung dragon?) you're set.

The other great thing about Dragon Cohort: you calculate the ECL as if it were 3 lower. So if you take it at 9th, the ECL of your cohort can be as high as 10.

Celestial template does indeed set Int to 3. You can also use Half-Dragon for +2 Int. On a dire tortoise, that takes care of both the breath weapon and flight.

[INoKnowNames]

The other great thing about Dragon Cohort: you calculate the ECL as if it were 3 lower. So if you take it at 9th, the ECL of your cohort can be as high as 10.

Celestial template does indeed set Int to 3. You can also use Half-Dragon for +2 Int. On a dire tortoise, that takes care of both the breath weapon and flight.

For Leadership, is it just the creature's ECL? Because while Half Dragon may be countered by Dragon Cohort, doesn't Hit Dice still factor in? And that assumes Half Dragon creatures are even legal on Dragon Cohort: I may have missed seeing where it said they were.

If that is all legal, then Half Brass Dragon Dire Tortoise is an option, albeit still a 15th level option. On the other hand, Celestial Dragonborn Dire Tortoise can be obtained at 12th level, and depending on how exactly Natural Bond works, maybe 9th level.

I'm not sure which is better, and I might need help comparing the two, but I think I've got my Gamera now! Yay Gamera!

[LibraryOgre]

So, how is this going?

[INoKnowNames]

So, how is this going?

Not quite as good as I'd hoped. By RAW, a Half Dragon is ineligible for Dragon Cohort, unless I went with a Dragon Turtle, and that'd be a high level cohort to take.

A Celestial Companion, if it taking the Dragonborn Template doesn't override it being a Celestial Creature, on the other hand, works appropriately for my needs. I can reselect its feats to focus on its ability to fly, and let the Dragonborn template cover having a breath weapon.

But the Celestial to Dragonborn conversion is not one I have ever done before, so I'm not all sure how that works. It would have to go from Dire Tortoise to Celestial Creature to Dragonborn. The first I can work out, but what all is lost on becoming a Dragnborn?

[Red Fel]

Not quite as good as I'd hoped. By RAW, a Half Dragon is ineligible for Dragon Cohort, unless I went with a Dragon Turtle, and that'd be a high level cohort to take.

A Celestial Companion, if it taking the Dragonborn Template doesn't override it being a Celestial Creature, on the other hand, works appropriately for my needs. I can reselect its feats to focus on its ability to fly, and let the Dragonborn template cover having a breath weapon.

But the Celestial to Dragonborn conversion is not one I have ever done before, so I'm not all sure how that works. It would have to go from Dire Tortoise to Celestial Creature to Dragonborn. The first I can work out, but what all is lost on becoming a Dragnborn?

It's all listed in Races of the Dragon, but the gist is that you keep the (Magical Beast, Extraplanar) subtype granted by Celestial Creature template, and add (Dragonblood) subtype on top of that. You keep size and mobility stuff. You lose any bonus feats, and basically any other features, so I'm pretty sure you lose the Smite Evil, DR, energy resistance, and SR of the Celestial Creature template, along with any special feats/features of the Dire Tortoise other than its race, speed, etc. You might also lose the Darkvision, if I recall.

Basically, you lose almost everything except your subtype, size, and ability modifiers, and maybe swim speed if a Dire Tortoise has one. (Actually, doesn't it have a burrow speed?)

[Phelix-Mu]

Couldn't you just graft on some manner of wings? There are even dragon wings, IIRC, in Races of the Dragon (I think). Once they are on, I'm pretty sure the only way to get rid of their mode of flight is to cut them off.

Also, and I'm not sure if this suits your purposes, but I think the table for Dragon Cohort is a list of recommendations, not a comprehensive list of options. A DM could quite reasonably allow this use of the feat to make Gamera a half-dragon.

Finally, Manipulate Form? I think it's probably massive overkill, but I think this infamous ability from Serpent Kingdoms would work. Turtles should, I think, be among the scaly-kind, but I could be wrong.

[INoKnowNames]

It's all listed in Races of the Dragon, but the gist is that you keep the (Magical Beast, Extraplanar) subtype granted by Celestial Creature template, and add (Dragonblood) subtype on top of that. You keep size and mobility stuff. You lose any bonus feats, and basically any other features, so I'm pretty sure you lose the Smite Evil, DR, energy resistance, and SR of the Celestial Creature template, along with any special feats/features of the Dire Tortoise other than its race, speed, etc. You might also lose the Darkvision, if I recall.

Basically, you lose almost everything except your subtype, size, and ability modifiers, and maybe swim speed if a Dire Tortoise has one. (Actually, doesn't it have a burrow speed?)

It does have a Burrow Speed. Giant Sand Turtle rather than Aquatic Turtle, for some reason. Go figure. Bet there's probably a giant swimming dinosaur like turtle in one of the Dragon books. I'm cool with losing the Celestial stuff, but I am a bit bumbed at losing Trample and Lightning Strikes. I don't think it has bonus feats, just the ones gained from having a certain number of levels / hit dice.

So, if I have it right...

Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 14d8+107 (170 hp)
Initiative: -2 (Dex)
Speed: 20 ft., burrow 20 ft.
AC: 25 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +19 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 25
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+26
Attack: Bite +16 melee
Full Attack: Bite +16 melee
Damage: Bite 1d8+12
Space: 15 ft/10 ft.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Special Attacks: Lightning strike, trample 4d8+12
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +7, Will +9
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 6, Con 25, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 6
Skills: Hide -1*, Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness; Endurance; Toughness (3)
Climate/Terrain: Warm deserts
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 15-28 HD (Huge); 29-42 HD (Gargantuan)


Huge Magical Beast (Extra Planar)
Hit Dice: 14d8+107 (170 hp)
Initiative: -2 (Dex)
Speed: 20 ft., burrow 20 ft.
AC: 25 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +19 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 25
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+26
Attack: Bite +16 melee
Full Attack: Bite +16 melee
Damage: Bite 1d8+12
Space: 15 ft/10 ft.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, 60ft Dark Vision, Acid, Cold, Electricity Resistance 10, SR 19, DR 10/Magic,
Special Attacks: Lightning strike, trample 4d8+12, Smite Evil
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +7, Will +9
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 6, Con 25, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 6
Skills: Hide -1*, Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness; Endurance; Toughness (3)
Climate/Terrain: With Master
Organization: Animal Companion
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral Good

Huge Magical Beast (Extra Planar, Dragonblood)
Hit Dice: 14d8+112 (175 hp)
Initiative: -3 (Dex)
Speed: 20 ft., burrow 20 ft., flight 60 ft. (average)
AC: 24 (-2 size, -3 Dex, +19 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+26
Attack: Bite +16 melee
Full Attack: Bite +16 melee
Damage: Bite 1d8+12
Space: 15 ft/10 ft.
Special Qualities: +2 Dodge to AC vs Dragons, Immune to Frightful Presence
Special Attacks: 70 ft 5d8 Breath Weapon (DC 24) every 1d4 rounds
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +6, Will +9
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 4, Con 27, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 6
Skills: Hide -2*, Listen +6, Spot +6 No idea.
Feats: Dragon Wings, Improved Dragon Wings, Air Heritage, Hover, Flyby Attack
Climate/Terrain: With Master.
Organization: Animal Companion
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral Good

Do I have that right? Except for skills for the last bracket; that I have no legitimate idea.


Couldn't you just graft on some manner of wings? There are even dragon wings, IIRC, in Races of the Dragon (I think). Once they are on, I'm pretty sure the only way to get rid of their mode of flight is to cut them off.

Pretty sure Grafts costs money. And half of them are evil anyway. Or creepy.


Also, and I'm not sure if this suits your purposes, but I think the table for Dragon Cohort is a list of recommendations, not a comprehensive list of options. A DM could quite reasonably allow this use of the feat to make Gamera a half-dragon.

Hm... maybe, with all the effort being put into doing it, anyway. It would make more sense than most Half Dragons, anyway :smalleek:.

Though I'm even less sure on the level to take a Half Dragon Dire Tortoise than I am on what the end result of it would be...

Huge Dragon
Hit Dice: 14d10+112 (182 hp)
Initiative: -2 (Dex)
Speed: 20 ft., burrow 20 ft., flight 70 ft. (average)
AC: 29 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +23 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 29
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+30
Attack: Claw +20 melee
Full Attack: 2 Claws +20 melee, Bite +18 melee, Tailslap +18 Melee
Damage: Claw 1d8+12, Bite 2d6+6, Tailslap 2d6+6
Space: 15 ft/10 ft.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, 60ft darkvision, immune to sleep, paralysis, and fire
Special Attacks: Lightning strike, trample 4d8+18, Breath Weapon: 6d8 30-ft Cone of Fire Breath (DC 25)
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +7, Will +9
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 6, Con 27, Int 4, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Hide -1*, Listen +6, Spot +6 (126 Skill Points to spend, still fuzzy on this)
Feats: Dragon Tail, Air Heritage, Dragon Breath, Hover, Multiattack
Climate/Terrain: With Master
Organization: Dragon Cohort
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: 15-28 HD (Huge); 29-42 HD (Gargantuan) (Is it possible for it to advance as a cohort?)


Finally, Manipulate Form? I think it's probably massive overkill, but I think this infamous ability from Serpent Kingdoms would work. Turtles should, I think, be among the scaly-kind, but I could be wrong.

Considering the first result on a google check was for Pun Pun, I totally don't want to even bother trying to learn what Manipulate form is. I'd sooner just take a flying mount and refluff it as a reptile.

[Phelix-Mu]

Considering the first result on a google check was for Pun Pun, I totally don't want to even bother trying to learn what Manipulate form is. I'd sooner just take a flying mount and refluff it as a reptile.

Manipulate Form is the creature mix-and-match ability that gets Pun Pun his infinite stats. But I think it can also be used to grab other things from creatures aside from their stats, like their wings. Which is why I mentioned it. Basically, an ancient race of scaly folk used this "genetic engineering" to breed a whole bunch of other creatures. I am failing my check to remember the name of the ancient race, though.

Anyway, I think your method is far simpler. I wasn't sure if you were coming at this from practical optimization standpoint or a theoretical one.

[INoKnowNames]

Manipulate Form is the creature mix-and-match ability that gets Pun Pun his infinite stats. But I think it can also be used to grab other things from creatures aside from their stats, like their wings. Which is why I mentioned it. Basically, an ancient race of scaly folk used this "genetic engineering" to breed a whole bunch of other creatures. I am failing my check to remember the name of the ancient race, though.

... who the hell wrote that and thought "This should be accessible to player characters anyone."?


Anyway, I think your method is far simpler. I wasn't sure if you were coming at this from practical optimization standpoint or a theoretical one.

Oh, no, entirely practical. This is for a character I've got in the wings. The best mount is a classy one, and there isn't much classier than a flying turtle shooting fire at enemies. Because that's pretty classy. While my concepts might be ridiculous, and my characters anywhere from laughable to overpowered, I don't usually ask for something unless I have the intent to play it.

Yeah, both methods (having an animal companion take on a celestial aspect, then amplified by a dragon aspect, or simply mastering a dragonic animal) are even justified in character, though both also require a little fiat to do... the character is a VOP one (hence the no items clause, and yes, I know, I know, VOP blech), and technically the chamber for the Dragonborn Ritual costs 100 gp in Dragon...y bits (don't remember exactly). And for the other, obviously Half Dragon isn't precisely listed as an option for Dragon Cohort, though that probably isn't the most ridiculous house-rule ever.

But yeah, the less fiat is needed, and the more simple the instruction, the better.

[Red Fel]

Stat blocks.

Okay. Since I don't have the stats for Dire Tortoise, I will assume that yours are correct.

So, starting with the stats you posted, we add the Celestial Creature template. Type becomes Magical Beast (Extraplanar), fine. Add smite evil, DR, energy resistance, SR, all fine. Int gets raised to 3, the minimum. Great.

Now we move onto Dragonborn. We keep size, keep Magical Beast (Extraplanar) and add (Dragonblood), fine. Modify ability scores, good.

Natural attacks, I think you keep. Movement, keep. Special abilities and qualities, lose. Gain Dragonborn specials, fine. Looks like you took Heart aspect for the Breath Weapon, also fine. Here's the confusing part.

According to RotD, you lose any bonus feats that are a function of your race, such as a human's bonus feat. It is unclear whether the Dire Tortoise's native Alertness, Endurance, and Toughness feats qualify. This is a fuzzy area for DM interpretation. If the DM, in essence, rules that, as a result of becoming Dragonborn, the tortoise has basically softened its shell and become more draconic, I could see your feat choices working. Mostly. Wings, Hover, and Flyby are fine, but Air Heritage is confusing. Being a Heritage feat, I think those are usually taken at 1st level and indicate something in-born to the character. Admittedly, this is an animal companion who has now been "born" several times - once as a Dire Tortoise, once again as a Celestial Dire Tortoise, and a third time as a Dragonborn Celestial Dire Tortoise. I don't think I could swallow a fourth, a Dragonborn Celestial Dire Tortoise with Air Heritage. It's a bit... Complex, for an animal companion.

If, on the other hand, the DM rules that Alertness, Endurance and Toughness are just part of what a Tortoise is, and aren't bonus feats, then you're stuck with them. You have to decide if you'll keep Heart aspect or switch to Wings in that case, because you won't easily get both.

Another issue is one of fluff. Dragonborn are capital-G Good creatures who have sworn service to Bahamut, in particular in his war against evil dragons. This is a fluff issue which your DM may ignore, but technically speaking, a Dragonborn animal companion serves Bahamut, not the PC, except inasmuch as Bahamut commands him to serve the PC.

All in all, your Dragonborn Celestial Dire Tortoise looks reasonably solid. Now let's look at the Half-Dragon Dire Tortoise.

Type changes completely to Dragon, fine. Gain fly speed, fine, but it flies at twice its base land speed - that's 40, not 70. Increase HD, good. Increase NA, good. Add claw attacks, breath weapon, immunities, fine. Increase abilities, correct. It's all intact, but I don't think you were supposed to swap out the feats in this one. They stay as they are.

Okay, all that said, grafts aren't all that creepy. In fact, Draconic Grafts are fairly decent. You can graft a lot of things, from wings, to a crest, even to eyes (admittedly, that part's a bit creepy) and it's not technically evil.

One last note, I again suggest looking at the Lung dragons from Oriental Adventures. Yes, it's 3.0 content, but it can be updated. Specifically, look at the Lung Wang, a massive sea turtle dragon. It has fire immunity and a steam breath weapon (treat as fire damage), along with solid DR. It would take very little refluffing to change steam into fire, and a swim speed into a fly speed.

[Urpriest]

The big problem here is that Dragonborn makes your Dire Tortoise ineligible to be an Animal Companion. Exalted Companion gives you an exception that lets you add the Celestial Template, but other templates would still disqualify it.

I think a Lung Dragon Cohort is probably the best option, with the downside that at lower levels you'd have a Magikarp rather than Gamera. Most of them even fly using ambiguous non-winged means.

[INoKnowNames]

Okay. Since I don't have the stats for Dire Tortoise, I will assume that yours are correct.

I checked during my few days of non-response; they're legitimate.


Here's the confusing part.

[...] Air Heritage is confusing. Being a Heritage feat, I think those are usually taken at 1st level and indicate something in-born to the character. Admittedly, this is an animal companion who has now been "born" several times - once as a Dire Tortoise, once again as a Celestial Dire Tortoise, and a third time as a Dragonborn Celestial Dire Tortoise. I don't think I could swallow a fourth, a Dragonborn Celestial Dire Tortoise with Air Heritage. It's a bit... Complex, for an animal companion.

I suppose I can understand Air Heritage not working. I didn't know if it was a 1st level only feat or not (D&D Tools hadn't specified, so I might need to dig some more), so it might not be correct to apply. Maybe Run would work (even if I'm punching logic in the face by having a Flying Turtle the size of a house "running" for the sake of travel).


According to RotD, you lose any bonus feats that are a function of your race, such as a human's bonus feat. It is unclear whether the Dire Tortoise's native Alertness, Endurance, and Toughness feats qualify. This is a fuzzy area for DM interpretation.

If, on the other hand, the DM rules that Alertness, Endurance and Toughness are just part of what a Tortoise is, and aren't bonus feats, then you're stuck with them. You have to decide if you'll keep Heart aspect or switch to Wings in that case, because you won't easily get both.

Oh, that's actually something I checked on, and it's actually clear in the rules.

Bonus feats are feats one obtains aside from the one gained at 1st, 3rd, 6th, and etc hit-dice, or in most cases levels. Humans get a free bonus feat. Ravens get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat; Wolves - Track. Those are the feats that are automatically lost through becoming Dragonborn. The other feats are those gained through hit dice.

Some relevant text here:


The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.

I emphasized the point that I'm using to support being able to exchange the monster's feats around to those I might prefer and that are still valid (though I guess Air Heritage is still pushing it).

The only other special note about the Dragonborn Template is that upon becoming it, you can take a 1st level only feat that you wouldn't have normally been able to take at all since you're a higher level now. That's how I scored the Dragon Wings on Gamera Mk.1 up there.


Another issue is one of fluff. Dragonborn are capital-G Good creatures who have sworn service to Bahamut, in particular in his war against evil dragons. This is a fluff issue which your DM may ignore, but technically speaking, a Dragonborn animal companion serves Bahamut, not the PC, except inasmuch as Bahamut commands him to serve the PC.

Noted. Evil-Dragon hunting to be added to backstory of VOP PC. I suppose Nemesis (Dragons) can fill up one of those feat slots...


All in all, your Dragonborn Celestial Dire Tortoise looks reasonably solid.

Hopefully a Dire Tortoise looks solid! :smalltongue:


Now let's look at the Half-Dragon Dire Tortoise.

[QUOTE=Red Fel;16756415]Gain fly speed, fine, but it flies at twice its base land speed - that's 40, not 70.

That was, once again, due to Air Heritage, but I forgot; Half Dragon Gamera would be eligible for Improved Speed. Though, I'm not sure the math for that for flying: Should the base land speed increase not increase the flight speed?

Half Dragon Flight Speed = Base Speed X2

Base Speed (w/o Improved Speed) = 20.
Base Flightspeed (w/o Improved Speed) = 40.

Base Speed (w/ Improved Speed) = 30.
Flight Speed A (factoring ground speed increase) = 60 + 20 = 80.
Flight Speed B (not factoring ground speed increase) = 40 + 20 = 60.

Which should it be? Or should it be something else?


It's all intact, but I don't think you were supposed to swap out the feats in this one. They stay as they are.

This gets addressed by whatever the response would be to the earlier query on feat changing.


Okay, all that said, grafts aren't all that creepy. In fact, Draconic Grafts are fairly decent. You can graft a lot of things, from wings, to a crest, even to eyes (admittedly, that part's a bit creepy) and it's not technically evil.

If someone decides to wear my arm or leg, they're automatically creepy, regardless of not of them being evil or not. Also, I don't think that changes the fact that they still probably cost money.


The big problem here is that Dragonborn makes your Dire Tortoise ineligible to be an Animal Companion. Exalted Companion gives you an exception that lets you add the Celestial Template, but other templates would still disqualify it.

I'm going to need to have you explain that to me, Mr. Urpriest. Not saying that you're wrong; just saying I don't quite understand, since one doesn't -lose- the Celestial Template upon transition to Dragonborn (subtypes and stat changes being carried over being my main proof there), just the special abilities it provides.


One last note, I again suggest looking at the Lung dragons from Oriental Adventures. Yes, it's 3.0 content, but it can be updated. Specifically, look at the Lung Wang, a massive sea turtle dragon. It has fire immunity and a steam breath weapon (treat as fire damage), along with solid DR. It would take very little refluffing to change steam into fire, and a swim speed into a fly speed.


I think a Lung Dragon Cohort is probably the best option, with the downside that at lower levels you'd have a Magikarp rather than Gamera. Most of them even fly using ambiguous non-winged means.

I was told that if I could figure out how they calculated the level for the list for Dragon Leadership, I could attempt to submit any Dragon I could find (apparently given the plethora of other options I could take if I wanted to with much less work, allowing for a variant dragon apparently isn't the worst thing I could be allowed). I missed the suggestion for the Lung Dragon earlier, and it sounds interesting, but I'm actually more attached to the idea of the Half Dragon than I am even the Celestial Dragonborn. I'm just not sure how to determine it's ECL, which is the main reason I was so keen on the Celestial Dragonborn; I could fully determine when and at what level it would be an eligible companion by following he rules directly. I've no idea when I could obtain a Lung Dragon or a Half Dragon, even if I'd very much enjoy either. The closest thing that springs to mind is that the DragonTurtle animal would require being at 14th level, 17th with basic Leadership, but I've no idea how they obtained that number...

[Urpriest]

First of all, on the creepiness factor, the Elemental grafts are probably the least creepy, and I'm pretty sure there's an Air one that grants wingless flight, so that may be an option.



I'm going to need to have you explain that to me, Mr. Urpriest. Not saying that you're wrong; just saying I don't quite understand, since one doesn't -lose- the Celestial Template upon transition to Dragonborn (subtypes and stat changes being carried over being my main proof there), just the special abilities it provides.

It's not that you lose the Celestial Template, it's that you gain the Dragonborn Template. An animal companion must be typical of its kind, a Dragonborn Celestial Dire Tortoise is not a typical Celestial Dire Tortoise.





I was told that if I could figure out how they calculated the level for the list for Dragon Leadership, I could attempt to submit any Dragon I could find (apparently given the plethora of other options I could take if I wanted to with much less work, allowing for a variant dragon apparently isn't the worst thing I could be allowed). I missed the suggestion for the Lung Dragon earlier, and it sounds interesting, but I'm actually more attached to the idea of the Half Dragon than I am even the Celestial Dragonborn. I'm just not sure how to determine it's ECL, which is the main reason I was so keen on the Celestial Dragonborn; I could fully determine when and at what level it would be an eligible companion by following he rules directly. I've no idea when I could obtain a Lung Dragon or a Half Dragon, even if I'd very much enjoy either. The closest thing that springs to mind is that the DragonTurtle animal would require being at 14th level, 17th with basic Leadership, but I've no idea how they obtained that number...

In the case of the Dragon Turtle, that number isn't something they obtained, it's a new rule in that book: as of the publication of that table, Dragon Turtles have a level adjustment of +5.

For a Half-Dragon, the problem isn't the Half-Dragon part (which is LA +3), it's the base creature. Dire Tortoises don't have an LA, and just giving them an Int score isn't enough to give them one. You'd need to find a turtle-like monster that already had an LA. Tortles have been mentioned, I can't think of another one off-hand (well, Dragon Turtles, but they're already dragony).

For the Lung Dragons, Draconomicon has numbers for their LA in the section on Dragons as PCs. You'd be stuck with a Yu Lung (Magikarp) until the higher levels, though, and even after it "evolved" it wouldn't be very turtley.

[Red Fel]

Some quick notes, since Urpriest seems to have a lot of it nailed down.

Feats: Okay. So either those are bonus feats, which Dragonborn swaps out, or they're not, which means you can reassign them. Sounds good.

Also: Nemesis (Evil Dragons).

Improved Speed: Increases your flight speed by 20, other speeds by 10. You don't need to increase flight speed twice. So land speed would go 20 -> 30, flight would go 40 -> 60, as per Option B. Note that the "flight = 2x land" equation still holds true.

Animal Companion: According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#animalCompanion), the following language applies to an animal companion:

A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below.
The section then goes on to explain how its powers grow as the Druid levels. All Animal Companions listed, in this section and the alternative Animal Companions section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#alternativeAnimalCompanions), are of the Animal type, without exception. The only ones with a subtype are those which are Aquatic, such as the Squid. As I recall, an Animal Companion must be an Animal (just Animal), which means that they may have an Int no greater than 2. (As the SRD points out (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType), no creature with an Int of 3 or higher may be an Animal.)

In essence, this means that, usually, a template cannot be applied to an animal companion. Exalted Companion, as Urpriest mentioned, offers an exception to this rule.

While technically, an Exalted Companion, by merit of being good and having the requisite Int, should be eligible for Dragonborn, Urpriest makes the regrettably valid point that you shouldn't be applying that template. Similarly, you probably shouldn't be applying the Half-Dragon template either.

Note that Rule 0 applies - if you pitch it to your DM, and he says go, you're set. But sadly, by RAW, Urpriest is correct - usually, stunts like this make the creature ineligible to be an animal companion.

[Captnq]

Oh Please...

Start with a mundane turtle.
Cast Awaken. Now you have intelligent turtle.

Get four Gauntlets. Make the gauntlets +1 Opposable. Using the Gauntlet of the Dwarven Forge as the template, you can get them all to ignite and burn for 10 rounds on command as a swift action. Now we add The Flying WSA to all four.

Because all 4 gauntlets can now be wielded by the turtles 4 feet, we turn all four gauntlets into Illithid Weapon grafts. Then we get a ring of spell storing. We cast Giant Size into it at 20th level. We put the ring on the turtle's feat.

Go, Now, once a day, for a power up cycle that takes a full round. The turtle will expand to collosal size. Each "foot" will have a giant blazing gauntlet "foot". Each foot is both an animated object that can make an attack on it's own, can fly, and also counts as a natural weapon, so you get another attack with it when you make a full attack.

In otherwords, Once a day, the turtle turns into a giant flying turtle with burning feet that can fly through the air as a giant spinning top, taking 8 attacks a round at 4d8+15 base damage and 1d8+10 fire damage per hit. for the next 10 rounds. Pity he'll only move 30 feet a round.

Now all we need to do it add Ghost Sound for the theme song and you got yourself a Gamera.

[INoKnowNames]

First of all, on the creepiness factor, the Elemental grafts are probably the least creepy, and I'm pretty sure there's an Air one that grants wingless flight, so that may be an option.

.... Elemental Grafts. As in, beings that are litterally made out of Fire and Water and Wind and Rock. You can actua-HOW DO YOU EVEN GRAFT AIR ONTO SOMETHING!?!


It's not that you lose the Celestial Template, it's that you gain the Dragonborn Template. An animal companion must be typical of its kind, a Dragonborn Celestial Dire Tortoise is not a typical Celestial Dire Tortoise.

Dang. That is what that says, doesn't it... I don't even have to look to remember that line.


In the case of the Dragon Turtle, that number isn't something they obtained, it's a new rule in that book: as of the publication of that table, Dragon Turtles have a level adjustment of +5.

Took me forever to find this one, but yeah, you're right there, too. Surprised the SRD isn't updated with that kind of info, though...


For a Half-Dragon, the problem isn't the Half-Dragon part (which is LA +3), it's the base creature. Dire Tortoises don't have an LA, and just giving them an Int score isn't enough to give them one. You'd need to find a turtle-like monster that already had an LA. Tortles have been mentioned, I can't think of another one off-hand (well, Dragon Turtles, but they're already dragony).

I spent a few hours trying to find some detail that might be enough to pitch an argument against this, but nothing came up... Darn...


For the Lung Dragons, Draconomicon has numbers for their LA in the section on Dragons as PCs. You'd be stuck with a Yu Lung (Magikarp) until the higher levels, though, and even after it "evolved" it wouldn't be very turtley.

So that means that this is pretty much out of reach for me, then...


Some quick notes, since Urpriest seems to have a lot of it nailed down.

Hard to argue against Urpriest.


Feats: Okay. So either those are bonus feats, which Dragonborn swaps out, or they're not, which means you can reassign them. Sounds good.

... just out of curiosity, if the companion is capable of qualifying for a feat, can they take it? Also, how is character level defined? Would one's hit dice be equal to one's character levels (along with class levels and level adjustment)? Stinky Cheese Alert: I might have to give up on firebreathing, but I think I can still do something interesting with the Celestial Dire Tortoise... 5 feats to work with...


Also: Nemesis (Evil Dragons).

Of course. Bahamut isn't going to reward me for killing Good Dragons, now is he?


Improved Speed: Increases your flight speed by 20, other speeds by 10. You don't need to increase flight speed twice. So land speed would go 20 -> 30, flight would go 40 -> 60, as per Option B. Note that the "flight = 2x land" equation still holds true.

Ah, that's a good way to remember that.


Animal Companion: According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#animalCompanion), the following language applies to an animal companion:

The section then goes on to explain how its powers grow as the Druid levels. All Animal Companions listed, in this section and the alternative Animal Companions section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#alternativeAnimalCompanions), are of the Animal type, without exception. The only ones with a subtype are those which are Aquatic, such as the Squid. As I recall, an Animal Companion must be an Animal (just Animal), which means that they may have an Int no greater than 2. (As the SRD points out (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType), no creature with an Int of 3 or higher may be an Animal.)

In essence, this means that, usually, a template cannot be applied to an animal companion. Exalted Companion, as Urpriest mentioned, offers an exception to this rule.

While technically, an Exalted Companion, by merit of being good and having the requisite Int, should be eligible for Dragonborn, Urpriest makes the regrettably valid point that you shouldn't be applying that template. Similarly, you probably shouldn't be applying the Half-Dragon template either.

Note that Rule 0 applies - if you pitch it to your DM, and he says go, you're set. But sadly, by RAW, Urpriest is correct - usually, stunts like this make the creature ineligible to be an animal companion.

That's depressing, but I don't think I have any actual way around it, either... darn...

NONHUMANOID HALF-DRAGONS

Since the half-dragon template can apply to any living creature type other than dragons, a nearly limitless variety of possible half-dragons exist. Although such creatures are usually not suitable as player characters, some might make for interesting cohorts. A half-deep dragon monstrous spider makes a terrifying mount for a drow blackguard, and a half-bronze dragon tiger is a mighty companion for a druid or ranger.


Oh Please...

I'm honestly not sure why you "Oh Please..." when most of your post is all but entirely inapplicable, most likely because you didn't read the op.

[Urpriest]

.... Elemental Grafts. As in, beings that are litterally made out of Fire and Water and Wind and Rock. You can actua-HOW DO YOU EVEN GRAFT AIR ONTO SOMETHING!?!

With elemental magics, of course!

Looking it up, the Whirlwind Form graft in Magic of Eberron seems like it would fit the bill, and be a hilarious mental image to boot.



... just out of curiosity, if the companion is capable of qualifying for a feat, can they take it? Also, how is character level defined? Would one's hit dice be equal to one's character levels (along with class levels and level adjustment)? Stinky Cheese Alert: I might have to give up on firebreathing, but I think I can still do something interesting with the Celestial Dire Tortoise... 5 feats to work with...

Your companion is a creature with hit dice, so yeah, it can take feats. Character level is defined as being equal to total hit dice. And yeah, if you can get flight or other things on the guy via feats, that would probably be the optimal strategy.




NONHUMANOID HALF-DRAGONS

Since the half-dragon template can apply to any living creature type other than dragons, a nearly limitless variety of possible half-dragons exist. Although such creatures are usually not suitable as player characters, some might make for interesting cohorts. A half-deep dragon monstrous spider makes a terrifying mount for a drow blackguard, and a half-bronze dragon tiger is a mighty companion for a druid or ranger.


Eh...it's more that the designers assumed that people would homebrew up LAs for certain monsters, rather than just using the base ones provided.

[INoKnowNames]

With elemental magics, of course!

I don't know what's worse, that such an answer is not only acceptable, but logical in the D&D verse, or that I can imagine your avatar looking all smug as heck while saying it.


Looking it up, the Whirlwind Form graft in Magic of Eberron seems like it would fit the bill, and be a hilarious mental image to boot.

The bill is infact the problem... though that's otherwise pretty cool. Maybe something I could use as a Dm...


Your companion is a creature with hit dice, so yeah, it can take feats. Character level is defined as being equal to total hit dice. And yeah, if you can get flight or other things on the guy via feats, that would probably be the optimal strategy.

Well, people say things like combining Exalted Companion with Vow of Poverty (but only on the companion; I can see kinda where they're coming from, but that's too much cheese even for me), or Martial Study / Martial Stance (I'd probably object more if the idea of a literal Kung Fu Panda wasn't so amusing), or even Mage Slayer and such (reasonable, actually. Animals trained to be able to slay magic users. Difficult, but I could see it pulled off).

My latest idea: an animal so in touch with its own spirit, in part due to being the companion of an incredibly spiritual master, as to be able to literally will changes in its own body. In his case, the desire to transend the earth once traveled on so long has manifested as the ability to fly (wow, this animal is more deep than most player characters: Kill, Money, Eat, Sex, Sleep, Repeat)

The crunch to go with that? Shape Soulmeld (Pegasus Cloak), Bonus Essentia, and Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders)... and maybe Improved Essentia Capacity. For some extra speed, Run, so that even the base 20 land speed turns into a 100ft flying mobile transport.


Eh...it's more that the designers assumed that people would homebrew up LAs for certain monsters, rather than just using the base ones provided.

I'm pushing it enough just making him open to the idea of a flying turtle, and already earlier reasoned my way past Holy Symbols vs Vow of Poverty. I don't think I can make him design or decide homebrew, so if I can't outright come up with something, I probably can't have it.

[Captnq]

I'm honestly not sure why you "Oh Please..." when most of your post is all but entirely inapplicable, most likely because you didn't read the op.

Did read the original post:

"I'm trying to figure out how to get non-item, non-dispelable flight onto a turtle (or other teresterial land reptilian)."

Illithid weapon grafts are EXTRAORDINARY.

As in, all those four weapons grafted to the turtle's feat are now extraordinary abilities and cannot be dispelled in an AMF. Hell, I could technically graft a Dwarven Mauler the size of a light ballista to the tiny turtle's foot and he could still use it.

Furthermore, now that the guantlets are grafted, the turtle now has the ability to manipulate objects as if he had four hands.

There is no way to take away that Turtle's ability to fly. Now the Giant Size, well, I took a short cut with that. I suppose I could do it with a Spellstoring weapon or... I dunno., Use a dire turtle. I specifics are up to the person making the request. I mean, the turtle can fly all day long. Each Foot is a separate Animated Object that can make independant actions on its own. I mean, seriously. It's a schizophrenic turtle. One screwed up turtle, but perfectly capable of bursting into flame and flying off taking multiple attacks each round.

Hell, if you add the Gauntlet Spike Launcher to each foot and quick loading, the gauntlet could start spitting I dunno, Liquid Ember covered Tumbling bolts.

But +1 Opposable gauntlets as Illithid Weapon Grafts. Definately the place to start. Season to taste.

[INoKnowNames]

Did read the original post.

Then you'd notice the point that you seem to be ignoring or missing still.


Title says it all: for a very specific character concept, I'm trying to figure out how to get non-item, non-dispelable flight onto a turtle (or other teresterial land reptilian).

Same reason the whirlwind graft doesn't work for this purpose, or else I'd already have had my answer.

[Captnq]

Same reason the whirlwind graft doesn't work for this purpose, or else I'd already have had my answer.

You are talking about the NEW grafts. I'm talking original grafts.

Old Grafts are not ITEMS. I just spent like, 6 weeks writing the complete guide to grafts. A Illithid Weapon graft is now a PART of your BODY. If you get it cut off, then hit with a regenerate, IT GROWS BACK. Yes, Metal, wood, stone, whatever. It grows back. In fact, there are no rules for taking the graft off you. All I can figure out is that you can replace it with a new graft, but there is no, "Put the old arm back on" rules. You can keep replacing your arms, but you can't get the old one back. Ever.

If I take that turtle, dip him in acid until all his flesh dissolves, take his bones, burn the bones to ash, Eat the ash. Crap out the ash. Burned my Crap into ash, then scattered the ash. Then I wish my Turtle's Body was in front of me, the turtle would reform with four illithid weapon grafts.

That is as NON-ITEM as it comes. A Illithid Weapon graft has NO item properties. It doesn't occupy a body slot. It cannot be sundered. It cannot be targeted. I can put a RING on my new Gauntlet Foot. Hell, if I take one of those Elvencrafted long bows, I can put a bow punch dagger on it and have a quadruple weapon grafted to replace my arm. Yet I can STILL put a Glove, Bracer, and ring on it. (yes, most DMs will say I'm on crack, but this is RAW, not RAI. How it works? MAGIC, that's how.)

A Graft, the old grafts, not that Eberron Crap, is an actual transformation of the fundimental creature itself.

A wish should be enough to turn a weapon into a Illithid Weapon Graft. So no need to bother hunting down a Illithid. I mean, it's only 1,000 gp. Cheap as heck, if you think about it. Should be able to make four grafts with one wish, considering the price. If you have the weapons made separately of course.

[INoKnowNames]

You are talking about the NEW grafts. I'm talking original grafts.

While that may be true, that is entirely irrelevant -because-


I mean, it's only 1,000 gp.


It's 1,000 gp.


1,000 gp.

Even doing a 100 gp ritual was questionable enough, being considered still only because of how effective it was and possibly waved through backstory shenanigans. Technically, I wouldn't have been able to even use that; your method, on the other hand, I don't have a snowball's chance in hell of waving.

While you could have understandably missed where this was being mentioned as for the companion of a VOP character, you still aren't getting past the fact that, in your post, you mention needing to equip it with multiple +1 weapons, aka needing items, which is something that was noted in the op as being unavailable to this character.

[Captnq]

{{scrubbed}}

[INoKnowNames]

Original Post set the rules.
If you move the goal posts, not my fault.

The original post specified no items, and it hasn't been edited at all, actually.

[Dr. Gamera]

I'm trying to figure out how to get non-item, non-dispelable flight onto a turtle (or other teresterial land reptilian).

Essentially, I'm looking to be able to have miniature Gamera as a personal ally for a PC as soon as possible.

In the future, just send me a private message; it will save time.